I don't get the change to b2p hubub

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

cesmode wrote: »

I agree with the OP. Game stays the same after the change. If you stay subbed the only difference is you GET stuff that non-subbers don't get.

The only thing I see veterans being upset about is the 100 crowns per month for the last year or so. Sure, its a bit underwhelming. Theres still time for Zeni to adjust it a bit, but still, its not the end of the world.

Everyone needs to relax. Same game, same fun, new additions, more rewards for subs. People should be cheering not crying.

But this is wrong. The game does not stay the same.
Over time it will lose quality, so over time, your sub will be less and less worth it.

stewhead2ub17_ESO wrote: »

Tapio75 wrote: »

Because no matter if we continue to sub or not, game will be developed with different goals from that point onwards.

Other games have shown that developing things to sell is always more important than giving players a good game. Even bug fixes are going to take even longer.. Not to mention visual bugs that most likely will now never be fixed

Sorry but I just think this is pure speculation on your part. It's in any company's best interest to provide a good game/experience. For this game and whatever titles they plan in the future.

It isn't speculations but learning from the past.
And in the case of f2p/b2p it isn't in the company's best interest to make a good game. Their best interest is to make a barely playable game and offer cash shop tools to make it bearable.
That's what works, and that's how games without subscription make money.

Sallington

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

It isn't speculations but learning from the past.
And in the case of f2p/b2p it isn't in the company's best interest to make a good game. Their best interest is to make a barely playable game and offer cash shop tools to make it bearable.
That's what works, and that's how games without subscription make money.

Can't stress this enough. This is how they make their money now, and after the B2P transition we know that's all they care about.

ricku1967

i really do believe that they were so intent on getting a console version for this game from the outset. they have tried for over a year to convince Sony and Microsoft to drop their online fees so they could have a sub fee for this game on console. when that didn't happen, instead of just dropping the console version altogether, they came up with this B2P format in order to get the game to console. I see no other reason for this change of direction. They came out with this B2P format at the same time they gave a release date for the PS4 and XBOX ONE..coincidence? i don't think so. What they should of done is make the game B2P on console and keep the current format on PC. that way its a win win for everybody, including Zenimax.

With that said, I will probably stay and see if the change will be as drastic as all the doomsday people are thinking and assuming it will be, and if it effects game play and the enjoyment of the game. to be honest. i don't see it as a huge deal as others do. If it is bad for the game, i will just stop playing the game, and wont lose a second of sleep over it. There are too many games in the world (and more to be released in the future) to even get upset over something as petty as a game.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

@ricku1967‌
Getting upset over a game is petty.
But getting upset at a company for its practices isn't.

The concept of MMOs is that they are supposed to last for years. Something becoming a virtual home where you can hang out with friends and have fun.
Some games manage to last over a decade and still be growing.
It is unacceptable that ESO only lasted for 8 months before abandoning its core principles and voluntarily cut short its growth.
We were sold this game on the basis that it will be and will remain subscription only. No freemium, no cash shop, just the continuous improvement of the subscription model. We bought into it and supported the concept with our money and defended the game despite its flaws because it seemed like the only offfering of its kind. A modern game trying to be a real MMO.

Instead, it turns out that the game is just yet another MMO marketed like a normal game and we've been lied to. We've wasted time, money and we're all feeling guilty of having been so naive.

What you're witnessing on the forums is the virtual equivalent of the walk of shame after a one night stand we thought would become a long term relationship.

Vis

Whoops, wrong thread.

Vis

Every time. Every time. Every time a game introduces a cash shop it follows the same pattern. Produce a grind and sell the anti-grind solution in the store. ESO in the near future will just be another variant of Grind Online.

reften

grimjim398 wrote: »

oren74 wrote: »

The key is this.

If I've been playing since release, and continue playing, will it be impossible for me to buy everything I want without paying more?

i.e. Lets say between launch and 6 months later I get a total of 10,000 crowns.

And lets say a guar mount is 8000 crowns...and a cool costume I'd like to have is 15,000 crowns.

so, in order to acquire items I want, I can't farm, I can quest, I can't just play a lot...I have to PAY MORE MONEY.

so after playing for a year and a half, paying $330, I can't acquire items I want, without paying more money.

If that is the case, then I will be very disappointed. BUT if my crowns, as a lifetime player, are enough to buy 2-3 new mounts, 2-3 new costumes...maybe some gems, I'll be happy.

Do you really think the goal of adding a cash shop to the game is to get you to spend exactly the same amount of money you spend now?

I see it this way.

There are 20 costumes in the store
There are 10 mounts in the store.

If by default, I as a long time player, have enough crowns to buy 2 or 3 of each...I'll be happy.

Sure, if I want them all, I can pay a ton of money, and I'm ok with that.

If by default, I as a long time player, have enough crowns to buy 1/2 of a single item, that is where I'll be mad.

Tapio75

oren74 wrote: »

grimjim398 wrote: »

oren74 wrote: »

The key is this.

If I've been playing since release, and continue playing, will it be impossible for me to buy everything I want without paying more?

i.e. Lets say between launch and 6 months later I get a total of 10,000 crowns.

And lets say a guar mount is 8000 crowns...and a cool costume I'd like to have is 15,000 crowns.

so, in order to acquire items I want, I can't farm, I can quest, I can't just play a lot...I have to PAY MORE MONEY.

so after playing for a year and a half, paying $330, I can't acquire items I want, without paying more money.

If that is the case, then I will be very disappointed. BUT if my crowns, as a lifetime player, are enough to buy 2-3 new mounts, 2-3 new costumes...maybe some gems, I'll be happy.

Do you really think the goal of adding a cash shop to the game is to get you to spend exactly the same amount of money you spend now?

I see it this way.

There are 20 costumes in the store
There are 10 mounts in the store.

If by default, I as a long time player, have enough crowns to buy 2 or 3 of each...I'll be happy.

Sure, if I want them all, I can pay a ton of money, and I'm ok with that.

If by default, I as a long time player, have enough crowns to buy 1/2 of a single item, that is where I'll be mad.

You really believe that cash shop will stay with these items or similar in free to playt model? In subscription based game, it will stay on that, mostly at least since they still have steady cashflow to introduce new content with good phase, this content will also be quality content.

In free to play cash shop, items start with fluff (Which by the way is bad enough for some) but in the time, there will be XP boosts, gold boosts, other kind of boosts. There will with strong possibility be gear that gives advantage since getting same stuff with regular game time will get forever.

Game in overall will lose its quality in time, real content will be sacrificed for new items to cash store, You being ok with paying money only makes it worse for us who want a good game withpout casg sgop. I would rather pay more mothly subs to keep game developing with sun model than get this free to play model, which by lessons of the past, makes game lose quality.


I really hope i am wtong on this part part experience tells me i am not.

IF in any case i am wrong and it is proven in time, feel free to tell me "Told you so" and laugh at me,.

Decimus_Rex

stewhead2ub17_ESO wrote: »

I really don't understand all the moaning and blustering. I plan on continuing to sub. I will be no worse off after the transition (actually I'll be a little better with the rewards). Contrary to what many confused individuals think, the game is not going ftp, though that wouldn't affect me either. I pay for what I enjoy. If it's not fun anymore than I move on. Good luck all

Unless I'm totally wrong , you are confused.

B2P means you buy it once, play it for free till when ever you get tired of it.

Free to play does only one thing, drops the performance bar for the team that maintains the game and adds content

Unless you have been in another game until now you would know that the zeni team that takes care of this game and adds content is slow and sloppy at best

NOW

There will be even less funds to keep the crew that ran the game until now

Two guess's were this game will go as far as bug killing, content and patching

Bye Bye ESO

Decimus_Rex

grimjim398 wrote: »

When CCP even hinted by its actions that it was adding a cash shop to EVE Online, the player base basically rioted in the game, dropped subs, and stopped the process dead in its tracks. There was actually no real evidence that the game was heading in a pay-to-win direction but the player base did not trust the developers and did not hesitate to make its will known, and they brought CCP to its knees in no uncertain terms. If that company can make that game with its relatively small player base viable for ten years using a subscription model, then ESO could certainly have held out longer than 10 months. The ESO developers spoke very passionately about the freedom that the subscription model would give them to develop a premium product. Nothing but hypocrisy in those statements, as it turns out.

The ESO player base is just rolling over for this, and saying things like, well, this is okay, this isn't THAT much of a change, we'll be okay with the cash shop, it doesn't really matter that the developers did a 180-degree turn; they were lying in the past about the subscription model but now they're telling the truth about the crown shop and it really will be just cosmetic items. This is not a passionate player base and this group will never be able to sustain this game in any form other than the one that is most profitable for the accountants and their ilk. The bottom line is that these developers never really had a vision for a first-rate game to begin with; if they had, they wouldn't abandon it now. Matt Firor is on record years ago as saying that all that can be done with an MMO has already been done, which meant from the outset that this game was just going to be a rehash of old tropes and ideas, and that's exactly what it is. The only thing unique about this game was the subscription model and the talk that the game would not compromise about that but would build itself steadily into a premium game, and now that's gone.

The developers don't intend to have the console market save this game; they don't have any vision of the game to start with. It's the community that makes the game anyway, as EVE and WoW have proven over and over again. This is nothing but a dive for dollars. Even if the game survives it won't be worth playing once the no-subscription crowd gets hold of it. The reason they don't want to pay a subscription is that they don't want to commit to anything but what's fun for them this week, and next week they'll be off to something else. That's their right and their choice. But that's not what I came here for and I'm not waiting around to see the waves of stupid that are about to roll over this game.

AMEN BROTHER.

The only thing i don't agree with you on is about the Dev's,game designers, countless tech's and others that are just the pawns with the skill,passion and art to bring this game into being

The corporate d&^*s are the ones who sell it for top dollar and tell the dev's and anyone else that had a passion for it to shove off

reften

Tapio75 wrote: »

oren74 wrote: »

grimjim398 wrote: »

oren74 wrote: »

The key is this.

If I've been playing since release, and continue playing, will it be impossible for me to buy everything I want without paying more?

i.e. Lets say between launch and 6 months later I get a total of 10,000 crowns.

And lets say a guar mount is 8000 crowns...and a cool costume I'd like to have is 15,000 crowns.

so, in order to acquire items I want, I can't farm, I can quest, I can't just play a lot...I have to PAY MORE MONEY.

so after playing for a year and a half, paying $330, I can't acquire items I want, without paying more money.

If that is the case, then I will be very disappointed. BUT if my crowns, as a lifetime player, are enough to buy 2-3 new mounts, 2-3 new costumes...maybe some gems, I'll be happy.

Do you really think the goal of adding a cash shop to the game is to get you to spend exactly the same amount of money you spend now?

I see it this way.

There are 20 costumes in the store
There are 10 mounts in the store.

If by default, I as a long time player, have enough crowns to buy 2 or 3 of each...I'll be happy.

Sure, if I want them all, I can pay a ton of money, and I'm ok with that.

If by default, I as a long time player, have enough crowns to buy 1/2 of a single item, that is where I'll be mad.

You really believe that cash shop will stay with these items or similar in free to playt model? In subscription based game, it will stay on that, mostly at least since they still have steady cashflow to introduce new content with good phase, this content will also be quality content.

In free to play cash shop, items start with fluff (Which by the way is bad enough for some) but in the time, there will be XP boosts, gold boosts, other kind of boosts. There will with strong possibility be gear that gives advantage since getting same stuff with regular game time will get forever.

Game in overall will lose its quality in time, real content will be sacrificed for new items to cash store, You being ok with paying money only makes it worse for us who want a good game withpout casg sgop. I would rather pay more mothly subs to keep game developing with sun model than get this free to play model, which by lessons of the past, makes game lose quality.


I really hope i am wtong on this part part experience tells me i am not.

IF in any case i am wrong and it is proven in time, feel free to tell me "Told you so" and laugh at me,.

we'll see, but not going to flame ESO for something they haven't done yet.

Morshire

grimjim398 wrote: »

When CCP even hinted by its actions that it was adding a cash shop to EVE Online, the player base basically rioted in the game, dropped subs, and stopped the process dead in its tracks. There was actually no real evidence that the game was heading in a pay-to-win direction but the player base did not trust the developers and did not hesitate to make its will known, and they brought CCP to its knees in no uncertain terms. If that company can make that game with its relatively small player base viable for ten years using a subscription model, then ESO could certainly have held out longer than 10 months. The ESO developers spoke very passionately about the freedom that the subscription model would give them to develop a premium product. Nothing but hypocrisy in those statements, as it turns out.

The ESO player base is just rolling over for this, and saying things like, well, this is okay, this isn't THAT much of a change, we'll be okay with the cash shop, it doesn't really matter that the developers did a 180-degree turn; they were lying in the past about the subscription model but now they're telling the truth about the crown shop and it really will be just cosmetic items. This is not a passionate player base and this group will never be able to sustain this game in any form other than the one that is most profitable for the accountants and their ilk. The bottom line is that these developers never really had a vision for a first-rate game to begin with; if they had, they wouldn't abandon it now. Matt Firor is on record years ago as saying that all that can be done with an MMO has already been done, which meant from the outset that this game was just going to be a rehash of old tropes and ideas, and that's exactly what it is. The only thing unique about this game was the subscription model and the talk that the game would not compromise about that but would build itself steadily into a premium game, and now that's gone.

The developers don't intend to have the console market save this game; they don't have any vision of the game to start with. It's the community that makes the game anyway, as EVE and WoW have proven over and over again. This is nothing but a dive for dollars. Even if the game survives it won't be worth playing once the no-subscription crowd gets hold of it. The reason they don't want to pay a subscription is that they don't want to commit to anything but what's fun for them this week, and next week they'll be off to something else. That's their right and their choice. But that's not what I came here for and I'm not waiting around to see the waves of stupid that are about to roll over this game.

I just had to bump this. Man, if the president ever wants a good speech writer, you nailed it.

spryler

When you all are doing your calculation about the upcoming console release, remember the following.

The initial console sales may not go back into game development, they may go right into the pockets of the investors. This would shorten the "grace period" after the console release and slow down future content.

Again, that is if that money isn't dumped back into the game. Who knows.

Tapio75

oren74 wrote: »

we'll see, but not going to flame ESO for something they haven't done yet.

The problem being that it is better to do before something happens. It is too late when milk is allready on the ground.

ricku1967

@frosth.darkomenb16_ESO my point still stands. if you are that upset at Zenimax. stop playing the game. they aren't forcing you to keep playing the game are they? Write a nasty letter to them telling them that they messed up, that they lost a customer because of their decision, and move on. Life is too short to get that upset over a game or a company that made said game. at the end of the day, its just a game that has zero effect on your life. There are, and will be, other games to play.

I am not Nostradamus, and i dont have a crystal ball like it seems most of you do. All I have been reading on here is by going B2P, it MIGHT ruin the game, it COULD become F2P, it EVENTUALLY will be B2W. and on and on and on, there is absolutely zero proof that this game will end up like the others. Just because it has happened in the past with other company's, doesn't automatically mean it will happen to this game. As it is right now, there will be nothing in the "crown shop" that will be P2W. just cosmetic and convenience items. the game otherwise will be the exact same as it is now.

Now, like i said before. If at anytime they do put in the shop the means for players to be overpowered or make the game P2W, then i will just stop playing the game. Hell, the witcher 3 is coming out next month, ill sink my teeth into that game for awhile. i still have the new Dragon age game to finish, and there will be a ton of other games coming out this year, and the next year, and on and on.. I will easily forget this game and move on. and guess what..the world will keep on spinning if im not playing this game.

Tapio75

People at EVE stopped paying and rioted over a monocle. They did not wait until the worst that you dont seem to believe hapens hapened.

Players made CCP to think again and continue developing the game in the old way. Cash shop exists there, but it is of no use to anyone since items there are just things that you alone see, clothes that you alone see when you are docked and in your personal quarters.

That game still develops and has frequent updates with new stuff that everyone gets for sub..

I would rather them add something similar to PLEX which is game time for ingame gold. Other people can buy PLEX and sell it for gold, those who work will have gold to play without paying subscription. Those with money buy gametime and sell it for gold and in addition have their own sub most likely active. More income without need to ruin the game.

Tapio75

ricku1967 wrote: »

there will be a ton of other games coming out this year, and the next year, and on and on.. I will easily forget this game and move on. and guess what..the world will keep on spinning if im not playing this game.

However, these games are not TES online with TES lore and world and therefore, they are of no interest to me and i suspect that case is same for many TES fans as well.

Other game wont make up for a lost game which lore, characters and world you have attached to and fell in love with.

Morshire

ricku1967 wrote: »

@frosth.darkomenb16_ESO my point still stands. if you are that upset at Zenimax. stop playing the game. they aren't forcing you to keep playing the game are they? Write a nasty letter to them telling them that they messed up, that they lost a customer because of their decision, and move on. Life is too short to get that upset over a game or a company that made said game. at the end of the day, its just a game that has zero effect on your life. There are, and will be, other games to play.

I am not Nostradamus, and i dont have a crystal ball like it seems most of you do. All I have been reading on here is by going B2P, it MIGHT ruin the game, it COULD become F2P, it EVENTUALLY will be B2W. and on and on and on, there is absolutely zero proof that this game will end up like the others. Just because it has happened in the past with other company's, doesn't automatically mean it will happen to this game. As it is right now, there will be nothing in the "crown shop" that will be P2W. just cosmetic and convenience items. the game otherwise will be the exact same as it is now.

Now, like i said before. If at anytime they do put in the shop the means for players to be overpowered or make the game P2W, then i will just stop playing the game. Hell, the witcher 3 is coming out next month, ill sink my teeth into that game for awhile. i still have the new Dragon age game to finish, and there will be a ton of other games coming out this year, and the next year, and on and on.. I will easily forget this game and move on. and guess what..the world will keep on spinning if im not playing this game.

So I wanted to delete this down, but I couldn't find the way. So to the poster of this, you are obviously an MMO fan/player. The people here that are speaking out the loudest are TES/ES fan/players. That is the source of the discontent. If it was all about just "a game" as you put it, then hell yeah, F*** this game and the dumb decision. But it isn't just that. We are losing a game that we have been a part of for years. We have immersed ourselves in the lore. We have grown with this "brand" and are attached/invested in it. Saying this is just a game (implying it is just lumped with all other games, crappy or good) belittles or ignores how long some people have been with the Elder Scrolls.
I get there are different opinions, but basing an assumption that we are just "mad about a game" is turning a blind eye to what really matters to almost everyone who is "complaining" - we are worried about the future of our game, the game that we have evolved with over many years, on the brink of disaster, being run into the ground by people who are taking advantage of loyal ES fans/players. We came here because it was ES, not just because it is a game. (Well you know what I mean I hope)
I think this fact is what bugs me the most about all the people's comments. Flame away, but know that the "legacy" of Elder Scrolls is on the line, and that isn't just "a game" dying, it is THE Elder Scrolls dying. (Yes, there is a difference)

eisberg

xtago wrote: »

Because if they can't afford the box, and/or can't afford the $15 for the sub then what makes Zenimax and the F2P crowd, think people are going to suddenly afford to buy the DLC?

The problem is you are under the assumption that it is about affordability. it really isn't. It is because of the competition. Kotaku has a good article about how the subscription model really is dead (though held up by a few outliers).
http://kotaku.com/5937575/the-subscription-mmo-is-dead

Quote from the Article:

Every positive post or tweet about either of those games has generally been met with a wall of, "It looks interesting, but I'll wait until it's free to play."

Players, and potential players, aren't stupid. As every previous big-budget MMORPG, with the exception of World of Warcraft, has inevitably gone to a free-to-play model, they will wait on the sidelines until their new game of choice follows suit. The audience has become a self-fulfilling prophecy: unwilling to pick up a game until it has gone free-to-play, a game must then go free-to-play to gain those players. MMORPGs are also now faced with the simple fact that competition has driven down prices. As players can dabble in so many without paying a flat fee, there are other places to go.

There will not be another license to print money like World of Warcraft was. The audience is done paying up-front for the box and continuing to pay a third as much again each month thereafter for continued access. Persistent multiplayer environments are not the novelty they once were, and the subscription model now feels like the antiquated relic of a time gone by. The Secret World is certain eventually to follow in the footsteps of SW:TOR and nearly every other MMORPG before it, and go free-to-play if it wishes its audience to grow.

Affordability is not the issue with subscription games, their problem is the plethora of competition out there, and ESO has some really good competition, like Guild Wars 2 for example. Why pay a monthly fee, when there are a ton of MMOs that don't have subs, and can be better, just as good, or nearly as good as ESO?

eisberg

Iago wrote: »

Bloodfang wrote: »

stewhead2ub17_ESO wrote: »

I really don't understand all the moaning and blustering. I plan on continuing to sub. I will be no worse off after the transition (actually I'll be a little better with the rewards). Contrary to what many confused individuals think, the game is not going ftp, though that wouldn't affect me either. I pay for what I enjoy. If it's not fun anymore than I move on. Good luck all

Agree with everything you've said.

Also players don't understand a few others things:

- ESO is not going F2P
- ESO wont be a 100% B2P either. It will be a hybrid P2P/B2P.
- Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but this hybrid model is the first in the MMO industry.

- Base game + 6 updates = B2P
- Update 7 and on = P2P

- Cash Shop won't be P2W
- Subbed people will be getting everything from the Cash Shop for "free" eventually anyway -> via crowns (if you'll play long enough).

The only things which is changing for subscribers is getting the vanity stuff for staying subbed (you know like for free).

It's true Zos did say that their cash shop would not be pay to win And they also said They had no plans of ever going by to play or free to play.


Oh wait they lied about the second one So I'm guessing the cash office going to go pay to win too.

When they said they had no plans for B2P or F2P, they didn't have plans for it at the time. Stating they have no plans, doesn't exclude that they won't make plans for it sometime in the future if things change.

So unless you can actually prove they knew they were going to go B2P when they made that statement, they didn't lie.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

oren74 wrote: »

Tapio75 wrote: »

oren74 wrote: »

grimjim398 wrote: »

oren74 wrote: »

The key is this.

If I've been playing since release, and continue playing, will it be impossible for me to buy everything I want without paying more?

i.e. Lets say between launch and 6 months later I get a total of 10,000 crowns.

And lets say a guar mount is 8000 crowns...and a cool costume I'd like to have is 15,000 crowns.

so, in order to acquire items I want, I can't farm, I can quest, I can't just play a lot...I have to PAY MORE MONEY.

so after playing for a year and a half, paying $330, I can't acquire items I want, without paying more money.

If that is the case, then I will be very disappointed. BUT if my crowns, as a lifetime player, are enough to buy 2-3 new mounts, 2-3 new costumes...maybe some gems, I'll be happy.

Do you really think the goal of adding a cash shop to the game is to get you to spend exactly the same amount of money you spend now?

I see it this way.

There are 20 costumes in the store
There are 10 mounts in the store.

If by default, I as a long time player, have enough crowns to buy 2 or 3 of each...I'll be happy.

Sure, if I want them all, I can pay a ton of money, and I'm ok with that.

If by default, I as a long time player, have enough crowns to buy 1/2 of a single item, that is where I'll be mad.

You really believe that cash shop will stay with these items or similar in free to playt model? In subscription based game, it will stay on that, mostly at least since they still have steady cashflow to introduce new content with good phase, this content will also be quality content.

In free to play cash shop, items start with fluff (Which by the way is bad enough for some) but in the time, there will be XP boosts, gold boosts, other kind of boosts. There will with strong possibility be gear that gives advantage since getting same stuff with regular game time will get forever.

Game in overall will lose its quality in time, real content will be sacrificed for new items to cash store, You being ok with paying money only makes it worse for us who want a good game withpout casg sgop. I would rather pay more mothly subs to keep game developing with sun model than get this free to play model, which by lessons of the past, makes game lose quality.


I really hope i am wtong on this part part experience tells me i am not.

IF in any case i am wrong and it is proven in time, feel free to tell me "Told you so" and laugh at me,.

we'll see, but not going to flame ESO for something they haven't done yet.

You really don't get what people are explaining: They might as well already have.

NO game ever managed not to screw things up with a cash shop.
And it's completely normal they couldn't, they have to replace subscription revenue. They have to feed their families, so they end up using whatever works.

And actually, we already know that ESO will do p2w:
- Exclusive gear will be lootable in DLCs
- Thieves guild and Darkbrotherhood skill lines and content will be DLC
- Susbcription have boosts and they consider adding AP boosts too
- They said in the livestream that anything making you gain time is fair game
- They said in a reddit AMA that DLC content slowed down the dev of the game

Also, and that's directly related to this discussion, they sold this game pre launch based on many marketing points, one of which was that they would be subscription only and that they will avoid cash shops.
They even went at length explaining the very things we are explaining in this thread and many players took those promises as a valid reason to buy and stay subbed to the game.
But this turned out to be a lie, so there are absolutely no reason to believe now that they will not add whatever will make them money in the cash shop.

Cash shops destroy games.
It is not sustainable and it ruins the quality of the game mechanics and content.

@ricku1967‌
This isn't just a game. This is a product I paid for and invested time on.

As a guild leader, I put my own credibility at risk by brining over 10 people into the game.
In total, I must have paid myself $200 for the game and brought in a few more hundreds by word of mouth.

Turns out, the company did false advertising.This isn't right and this should not be let go.
Because this may be just one game, but it is not the first one and will certainly not be the last, and if at one point we don't teach publishers for those practices, we're just as much part of the destruction of the industry than they are.

At some point, there will be no other games to play.
Eventually, players will not trust publishers anymore and will stop buying early on. It will lead to publishers not reimbursing their investors and investors will stop sponsoring MMOs. It's simple as that.

Did ESO affect my life? Yes it did. it didn't ruin it either, but it affected it.
The money spent would have been spent elsewhere if they hadn't lied. I also spent a lot of time in a game progressing a character I will not be able to enjoy in the future. Time I could have spent having as much fun in a different game with a future.

And again, read the first part of my post, ESO has from now on no future beyond the launch on consoles. We do not need to to be Nostradamus or have a crystal ball. It's not just a few other games that failed. They ALL did, and ESO is already showing some of the same p2w issues in its anounced shop.

@Morshire‌
Strangely enough, before reading your post I would have said the opposite.

I would have said that those that are outraged now are the fans of MMOs, those that know the industry and had hoped that ESO could have brought back something lost in this generation of games.
It felt to me that this change was to please TES fans because they are the ones used not to pay a subscription.

But as you put it, TES fans have more to lose than MMO fans. This is for us just one other crack in the wall, but for you guys, it's the only MMO that mattered that just went down the hole.
I empathize with that.

We're all losing in this ordeal, and especially ZOS which just ruined its livelihood.


@eisberg‌
That article you link to shows exactly what I was explaining earlier to Ricku.

People aren't paying not because they don't see value, but because they know that eventually, every game uses the same underhand tactics of going f2p. This is a viscious cycle that is harming the industry.

However, the value is here, ESO is a great game and it will be even better once 1.6 hits. I've played AoC, STO, GW2 and countless others. ESO is one of the rare games in the last few years really worth a sub.
What was not here was the trust that it would remain a sub. Had they continued with no sign of stoping, more and more people would have climbed on board.
Trust and goodwil are the most valuable resources for a game studio.

And whether or not they were honest at launch about not planing to go the cash shop route, that's what they sold us. They advertised their game based on the selling point it would remain sub only.
Whether they lied then, or just turned coat recently, they have been dishonest at some point.

seanvwolf

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

They will start with cosmetic and low convenience first and when that doesn't provide acceptable cash flow better items will be added. These items will keep getting better and better to keep the cash coming in.

During the ESO Live announcement of "Tamriel Unlimited" they were talking about Crown shoppers getting mid-tier items earlier... Even though they didn't say it directly as the launch point of the cash shop, this statement is very telling. I don't know if they are considering costumes and cosmetics as mid-tier items, unless we actually can get the cosmetic items in game through natural gameplay, but this statement convinces me that they are planning on atleast making it possible to sell items in a P2W-philosophy for a source of revenue at some point in the future.

Watch the ESO Live announcement yourself and see if you can catch it.

stewhead2ub17_ESO

Wow @frosth I think it's time you take a break from gaming. "NO game ever managed not to screw things up with a cash shop." That's just your opinion about what is "screwed up". As for DLC, if you're subbing it's not an issue. Which was the original point of the post before some ragers and sky is falling theorists chimed in. I can't help but actually laugh when people talk about the company "lying" about subs. Business models change and a company has the right to do it. I enjoy TES as much as anyone but as for those that are so "invested" in TES and feel so devastated and worried about the intellectual property, it may be time to get some fresh air!

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

@stewhead2ub17_ESO‌

Thank you for your concern. I think I'll be fine.

I wish it were only my opinion. Unfortunately, the fact that p2w is prevalent in every f2p game and that they are all tanking financially makes it a fairly objective assesment of "screwing up".

And the original point you're defending is an ostrich strategy. It may not change the first 2 months, but as the quality of the game lowers instead of increase, you will feel it too.

We were either lied to then, or they went back on their word today, either ways, they were dishonest at some point. The sub only business model was a selling point for this game and a pretty core aspect of their marketing strategy pre launch. Whether you agree or not with the change, this was false advertising and people are right to feel cheated.

And while I don't think that the solo TES franchise is in any trouble, the MMO aspect of it is screwed. For those that were never in MMOs but really wanted this one to work because it was TES, it's understandable that they are disapointed.
I'll find other games, Camelot Unchained is already on my list, but for them, they'll have to make due.

stewhead2ub17_ESO

@frosth well good luck to you. You'll be back!! ; )

Morshire

@frosth.darkomenb16_ESO - So there really is no need to quote you. I think, we have finally found a common ground and I agree with the bulk of what you have said. I honestly think that the "majority" of people who are "accepting" of the change are a "different" gamer than I am. (Nothing about better or worse, just fact) I have started, and buried IMO, other MMO's. And truthfully, what lays ahead for ESO may very well be "the bees knees" and this game will become the "greatest thing to hit the stores since sliced bread", but for me, "investing" myself in a game that has (Purely my opinion) "lied" to people is not really going to happen here. Yes, I will probably "play" the game, heck, it is entertaining still. But will they rally my vote for "Best MMO EVER", no. Will I fly through forums and stand behind them? Nope. Will I defend them to others and try to lure friends here? Nope. Why, because of just that, to me it is "just a game" now. And that is the part that I think the devs missed. People have not just played this game, they "invested" themselves in the game and its' success and now they are losing some of that.
This "community" was alive with the prospects for this game. Yes, it had issues, but the "community" felt alive. Now it seems like a "toxic dump" of "hate" and "discontent". That is what ZOS has done with their actions. And you know what, it does not matter what side of the fence you call home, we are all feeling it. You know, if ZOS had come forward and said what was in the pipes concerning the "changes", I bet they would have lost some people, but they would not have created this "toxic" element. I smell the stench of rotting flesh when I come here. (And yes, I am very familiar with that smell) No "business" can hope to survive with "element" present. And all the screaming about making it stop for the longevity of the game is falling on deaf ears. Why, because people are no longer "invested" in the success of this title. There are going to be remnants of this on these forums forever now. And every new player coming here will get a "faint whiff" of this. It is going to be like a cancer for this game. Will they bounce back? (You decide), but let's be honest, the echoes of this are being "heard" all over the place. This will forever taint this game. And nothing will fix that. They may change and grow, get better even, but that shadow will always lay on the horizon, and every time something goes wrong here, it will rear its head and fuel whatever dilemma is prevalent on the forums. But what do I know, this is just a game, not RL or anything.
(I am generalizing, so if my statement is not your view, then ignore it. I am not going to argue if I am talking about you specifically or not)

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

stewhead2ub17_ESO wrote: »

@frosth well good luck to you. You'll be back!! ; )

I'm not really leaving. I want to try 1.6 as I paid for it, I might as well enjoy it before it gets corrupted. I also really want to see the game again without aoe target caps because that's the one thing that has caused me true issues during my time in ESO.

Speaking of which, that's also another point where ESO devs did not learn from history and were sort of dishonest about. People came from GW2 and before launch there were direct questions about it that got eluded by the devs in a way to make them understand there would be no caps.
People got pumped about AvA and then bam, despite history showing it was a bad feature and against popular demand, they kept it in the game and it took months to even get aknowledged.
It's weird, ESO's staff is just so competent at times, and at others they make the weirdest, dumbest mistakes in the book.

Anyway, I'm not supporting the game anymore, and I won't be selling it to anybody any time soon, but I'll leach off of it as long as it's bearable.

@Morshire‌
I get what you mean but unfortunately, this won't have a big impact.
There are people who just don't know any better or just don't know/understand history.
See how many people don't see the issue, or are even happy about this change?

Next game going f2p/b2p will have people on the forums saying "look at how badly it went for AoC, STO, Swtor, lotro and lately, ESO" and there will be people answering "You don't know! It could go well with this game."
It's just sad.

Dedhed

Well, it's fun for some people to do this



whenever they get a chance. That's really it.

Dave2836

Dedhed wrote: »

Well, it's fun for some people to do this



whenever they get a chance. That's really it.

The most upsetting part is sometimes I observe they have more fun melting down than playing the game for the past 9 months.

Seriously, everyone who is freaking out, do you all disregard the value of time spent in the game and just focus on how much money you had spent on it instead? I had fun, still am having fun, so I choose to embrace the changes. When it stops being fun, well there's other things I can use my more valuable time for.

Ray22

Conspiracy theories aside, I'm going to focus on a few things:

- Exclusive gear will be lootable in DLCs. Think of DLC's as expansions in older MMO's. That was P2W too. WoW still works that way.

- Thieves guild and Darkbrotherhood skill lines and content will be DLC. I completely agree on this one. Skill lines should NEVER be a DLC exclusive.

- Susbcription have boosts and they consider adding AP boosts too. Boosts are borderline, but not P2W, it's P2 go fast.

- They said in the livestream that anything making you gain time is fair game. Not sure if it is fair or not, but it's not the main concern of most of us. Anyway, time-gaining boosts should be sub only, otherwise it compromises the option they should make attractive to everyone

- They said in a reddit AMA that DLC content slowed down the dev of the game. They also said they'd focus more on content, they're slowing down changes in gameplay

Now, just a little heads-up. Console is always being seen as the reason this is all happening, it's bad, it's evil, blabla. But it might be that little thing most people is forgetting when comparing ESO model to other B2P/F2P models. This is a first, so all previous experience is different.

The consumer target in consoles have different tendencies to PC/Mac gamers, specially DLC-wise. So you might think that saying "no, no, no, no, this time, it's gonna be different" is insane...but the thing is, this time, it's not the same ****ing thing, as Vaas would say.