Date for 1.6 - You're rapidly running out of time Zenimax

BBSooner · January 2015

Ahdora wrote: »

pvpaddict42 wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Am I the only person that would rather an update take 3 months longer than planned, than to have them get it out on time but have it be a huge pile of crap?

How does this prevent them from releasing the patch notes before it gets pushed to the test server? This is about the lack of communication more than anything else.

Why would they release incomplete patch notes, first of all, and why would they give us patch notes before pushing the update?

This. The state of the forums for the second half of December is proof this community is not mature enough to receive details without it being 100% set in stone. They likely won't release any patch notes until they are complete.

I for one would rather get a complete set of patch notes that ZOS is confident in instead of partial notes to appease the impatient.

pvpaddict42 · January 2015

skillastatb16_ESO wrote: »

Let them take their time to release a perfect, not bugged, update 6.

This is not going to happen. It's going to be buggy, and likely plenty of them. Unrealistic not to expect it especially with this many changes.

OrangeTheCat · January 2015

Wolfenbelle wrote: »

I don't mind being patient while waiting for updates, but the problem with waiting so long for 1.6 (and 1.7 after) is that it is basically a huge game redesign. For that reason, many people are sort of frozen in place and do not want to progress their characters too much at this point.

snip

I'm downloading Oblivion at this very moment from Steam. Been bumping around Skyrim too some.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO · January 2015

BBSooner wrote: »

Ahdora wrote: »

pvpaddict42 wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Am I the only person that would rather an update take 3 months longer than planned, than to have them get it out on time but have it be a huge pile of crap?

How does this prevent them from releasing the patch notes before it gets pushed to the test server? This is about the lack of communication more than anything else.

Why would they release incomplete patch notes, first of all, and why would they give us patch notes before pushing the update?

This. The state of the forums for the second half of December is proof this community is not mature enough to receive details without it being 100% set in stone. They likely won't release any patch notes until they are complete.

I for one would rather get a complete set of patch notes that ZOS is confident in instead of partial notes to appease the impatient.

Is it too much to ask for them to meet their own deadline? I mean seriously is it? Why do they make deadlines they know they cannot meet? It just angers people when you say it will be on the PTS in Jan and here we are Jan 20th STILL not there and we dont even have notes.

Merrak · January 2015

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Is it too much to ask for them to meet their own deadline? I mean seriously is it? Why do they make deadlines they know they cannot meet? It just angers people when you say it will be on the PTS in Jan and here we are Jan 20th STILL not there and we dont even have notes.

It's still January...for another 11 days. Plus, patch notes come out WITH the updates, not before.

BBSooner · January 2015

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Ahdora wrote: »

pvpaddict42 wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Am I the only person that would rather an update take 3 months longer than planned, than to have them get it out on time but have it be a huge pile of crap?

How does this prevent them from releasing the patch notes before it gets pushed to the test server? This is about the lack of communication more than anything else.

Why would they release incomplete patch notes, first of all, and why would they give us patch notes before pushing the update?

This. The state of the forums for the second half of December is proof this community is not mature enough to receive details without it being 100% set in stone. They likely won't release any patch notes until they are complete.

I for one would rather get a complete set of patch notes that ZOS is confident in instead of partial notes to appease the impatient.

Is it too much to ask for them to meet their own deadline? I mean seriously is it? Why do they make deadlines they know they cannot meet? It just angers people when you say it will be on the PTS in Jan and here we are Jan 20th STILL not there and we dont even have notes.

They haven't reached the deadline yet, so the statement is a bit premature.

Even if they have to push the deadline, such is the way of active development. Developers estimate a time frame based on specs and shoot for that deadline. Making the deadline a firm date will only guarantee that we get a worse result than we otherwise would have.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO · January 2015

Merrak wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Is it too much to ask for them to meet their own deadline? I mean seriously is it? Why do they make deadlines they know they cannot meet? It just angers people when you say it will be on the PTS in Jan and here we are Jan 20th STILL not there and we dont even have notes.

It's still January...for another 11 days. Plus, patch notes come out WITH the updates, not before.

Completely missed the point.

tinythinker · January 2015

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Ahdora wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Ahdora wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

They told us new content every 4-6 weeks. I dont think 1.6 even has any like new areas to quest etc right? Going to be more like 6 months between content than 6 weeks.

How are the CS and JS not new content?

Those are game systems not content. Content is like quests, dungeons etc we havent gotten anything like that since craglorn. Now it seems we wont get anything like that even with 1.7. So talking a very long time with nothing new as far as questing.

I think you may have misunderstood them when they said "new content." They certainly didn't mean new zones, dungeons, and questlines every six weeks. That isn't a sustainable model for the long haul.

Yet that was their entire reasoning for the monthly sub. They said we would have new content every 4-6 weeks. I dont think they meant constant revamps as content. If they did we are getting screwed. The justice system is not content. Its just a mini game. If they wait till 1.8 to add any new quests etc then thats just insane. They will lose a ton of players.

I suspect that Imperial City and Wrothgar had earlier internal projections for release before the decision to make the Championship System/put it on the front burner. Murkmire is also in the wings, but from what has been said is likely to be after the other two new zones.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO · January 2015

tinythinker wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Ahdora wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Ahdora wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

They told us new content every 4-6 weeks. I dont think 1.6 even has any like new areas to quest etc right? Going to be more like 6 months between content than 6 weeks.

How are the CS and JS not new content?

Those are game systems not content. Content is like quests, dungeons etc we havent gotten anything like that since craglorn. Now it seems we wont get anything like that even with 1.7. So talking a very long time with nothing new as far as questing.

I think you may have misunderstood them when they said "new content." They certainly didn't mean new zones, dungeons, and questlines every six weeks. That isn't a sustainable model for the long haul.

Yet that was their entire reasoning for the monthly sub. They said we would have new content every 4-6 weeks. I dont think they meant constant revamps as content. If they did we are getting screwed. The justice system is not content. Its just a mini game. If they wait till 1.8 to add any new quests etc then thats just insane. They will lose a ton of players.

I suspect that Imperial City and Wrothgar had earlier internal projections for release before the decision to make the Championship System/put it on the front burner. Murkmire is also in the wings, but from what has been said is likely to be after the other two new zones.

I remember them talking about a new PVE zone that was more solo friendly than craglorn. Guess thats been put on back burner as well.

Merrak · January 2015

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Merrak wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Is it too much to ask for them to meet their own deadline? I mean seriously is it? Why do they make deadlines they know they cannot meet? It just angers people when you say it will be on the PTS in Jan and here we are Jan 20th STILL not there and we dont even have notes.

It's still January...for another 11 days. Plus, patch notes come out WITH the updates, not before.

Completely missed the point.

No, you missed the point. You are complaining about something not being out, yet they have openly communicated that they couldn't meet the first of the year deadline but it would be out this month. Quit the QQ and get over it.

tinythinker · January 2015

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Ahdora wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Ahdora wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

They told us new content every 4-6 weeks. I dont think 1.6 even has any like new areas to quest etc right? Going to be more like 6 months between content than 6 weeks.

How are the CS and JS not new content?

Those are game systems not content. Content is like quests, dungeons etc we havent gotten anything like that since craglorn. Now it seems we wont get anything like that even with 1.7. So talking a very long time with nothing new as far as questing.

I think you may have misunderstood them when they said "new content." They certainly didn't mean new zones, dungeons, and questlines every six weeks. That isn't a sustainable model for the long haul.

Yet that was their entire reasoning for the monthly sub. They said we would have new content every 4-6 weeks. I dont think they meant constant revamps as content. If they did we are getting screwed. The justice system is not content. Its just a mini game. If they wait till 1.8 to add any new quests etc then thats just insane. They will lose a ton of players.

I suspect that Imperial City and Wrothgar had earlier internal projections for release before the decision to make the Championship System/put it on the front burner. Murkmire is also in the wings, but from what has been said is likely to be after the other two new zones.

I remember them talking about a new PVE zone that was more solo friendly than craglorn. Guess thats been put on back burner as well.

That is Wrothgar, which will include the Orc city and capital, Orsinium.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqivTnEteG0

pvpaddict42 · January 2015

Merrak wrote: »

It's still January...for another 11 days. Plus, patch notes come out WITH the updates, not before.

On live I can understand the need not to release patch notes before the release of the update. On the test server however, that's a convention that isn't necessary. We know that what gets released on the test server is going to change before it goes to live. It's expected. Releasing the information before it actually gets pushed to the test server seems completely viable to me.

BBSooner · January 2015

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Ahdora wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Ahdora wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

They told us new content every 4-6 weeks. I dont think 1.6 even has any like new areas to quest etc right? Going to be more like 6 months between content than 6 weeks.

How are the CS and JS not new content?

Those are game systems not content. Content is like quests, dungeons etc we havent gotten anything like that since craglorn. Now it seems we wont get anything like that even with 1.7. So talking a very long time with nothing new as far as questing.

I think you may have misunderstood them when they said "new content." They certainly didn't mean new zones, dungeons, and questlines every six weeks. That isn't a sustainable model for the long haul.

Yet that was their entire reasoning for the monthly sub. They said we would have new content every 4-6 weeks. I dont think they meant constant revamps as content. If they did we are getting screwed. The justice system is not content. Its just a mini game. If they wait till 1.8 to add any new quests etc then thats just insane. They will lose a ton of players.

I suspect that Imperial City and Wrothgar had earlier internal projections for release before the decision to make the Championship System/put it on the front burner. Murkmire is also in the wings, but from what has been said is likely to be after the other two new zones.

I remember them talking about a new PVE zone that was more solo friendly than craglorn. Guess thats been put on back burner as well.

You're talking about Wrothgar, and yes it had taken a back seat to the reformation of the vet/champ system (which makes sense).

ThatHappyCat · January 2015

Whiners: "ZOS you lied! You said EXP will be tracked!"

ZOS: "In response to player feedback, we will now give out CPs based on the EXP you've earned. To implement and test this change however we will need to push our early January PTS release back."

Whiners: "ZOS you lied! You said Update 6 will hit PTS on early January!"

.....

You can't win.

Merrak · January 2015

pvpaddict42 wrote: »

Merrak wrote: »

It's still January...for another 11 days. Plus, patch notes come out WITH the updates, not before.

On live I can understand the need not to release patch notes before the release of the update. On the test server however, that's a convention that isn't necessary. We know that what get's released on the test server is going to change before it goes to live. It's expected. Releasing the information before it actually gets pushed to the test server seems completely viable to me.

Yes, let's have them release a patch that is so broken that all of you who are complaining about it not being out yet would instead come running back here crying about how something is broken and it's BS that they didn't take their time with the update...

PTS IS NOT A REQUIREMENT. It is something that they let you, the players, check out the content and hopefully test it (which most of you will not actually do) before it goes to the live server.

EDIT: Reread, let me add that NEVER have they released patch notes early...nor should they. If something has to be changed last minute and the post it without it going to PTS, you guys will be even more bent out of shape.

Sindala · January 2015

Divinius wrote: »

They will have plenty of time to read the 60+ pages of patch notes while trying to download the 45 GB update to the test server...

45 GB. Hehe feeling optimistic are you.

The Audio patch was like 36GB and that was just replaces a few sounds and effects, this one is basically re-writing the entire game.
I'd say closer to 75GB.
As we all know they have no idea of how to compress downloads from past attempts and the bottlenecking on there download server that gives it you at like 1mbps if your really lucky.

Time enough to go out and learn French just to read there notes too

pvpaddict42 · January 2015

Merrak wrote: »

pvpaddict42 wrote: »

Merrak wrote: »

It's still January...for another 11 days. Plus, patch notes come out WITH the updates, not before.

On live I can understand the need not to release patch notes before the release of the update. On the test server however, that's a convention that isn't necessary. We know that what get's released on the test server is going to change before it goes to live. It's expected. Releasing the information before it actually gets pushed to the test server seems completely viable to me.

Yes, let's have them release a patch that is so broken that all of you who are complaining about it not being out yet would instead come running back here crying about how something is broken and it's BS that they didn't take their time with the update...

PTS IS NOT A REQUIREMENT. It is something that they let you, the players, check out the content and hopefully test it (which most of you will not actually do) before it goes to the live server.

You need to reread what is being said here. As far as your comment about PTS not being a requirement, that just comes across as idiotic.

OrangeTheCat · January 2015

BBSooner wrote: »

snip

They haven't reached the deadline yet, so the statement is a bit premature.

Even if they have to push the deadline, such is the way of active development. Developers estimate a time frame based on specs and shoot for that deadline. Making the deadline a firm date will only guarantee that we get a worse result than we otherwise would have.

Agree.

And to further the point: I've been doing professional software development for nearly 20 years and I can say with some confidence that rarely is a software deadline met with the original spec intact.

Typically, engineers are asked to estimate up front how long some work will take even though there are a ton of unknowns and unforeseeable issues. The bigger the project, the larger the number of unknowns. The estimates are often made under duress from management. The estimates are almost always wrong. The bigger and more complex the amount of work involved the greater the error. 1.6 is huge. I seriously doubt all of the things that they wanted to change/fix will be implemented, especially if they insist on making their stated deadline.

The reason why the patch notes have not been released is because ZOS does not know what exactly will get into the release until the time they actually release. Features/fixes that prove more difficult/time consuming that were scheduled may very well get dropped from the release at the last minute, the notes will need to reflect that, and so the notes will be necessarily delayed until release.

Merrak · January 2015

pvpaddict42 wrote: »

You need to reread what is being said here. Your comment has nothing to do with the post.

Edited. ^^

Merrak · January 2015

pvpaddict42 wrote: »

You need to reread what is being said here. As far as your comment about PTS not being a requirement, that just comes across as idiotic.

So now you are going to stoop to insults? Stay classy.

pvpaddict42 · January 2015

Merrak wrote: »

pvpaddict42 wrote: »

You need to reread what is being said here. As far as your comment about PTS not being a requirement, that just comes across as idiotic.

So now you are going to stoop to insults? Stay classy.

I said the comment comes across as idiotic, not that you were an idiot. If public test servers were useless, there wouldn't be so many companies using them.

Rydik · January 2015

OP sounds like he never waited for HL3 =D
When its done...

jopeymonster · January 2015

Sindala wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

They will have plenty of time to read the 60+ pages of patch notes while trying to download the 45 GB update to the test server...

45 GB. Hehe feeling optimistic are you.
The Audio patch was like 36GB and that was just replaces a few sounds and effects, this one is basically re-writing the entire game.
I'd say closer to 75GB.
As we all know they have no idea of how to compress downloads from past attempts and the bottlenecking on there download server that gives it you at like 1mbps if your really lucky.

OK - I'm in on this pool!

Put 1000g on the 90GB spot, and another 1000g on the 135GB spot!

=D

Merrak · January 2015

pvpaddict42 wrote: »

Merrak wrote: »

pvpaddict42 wrote: »

You need to reread what is being said here. As far as your comment about PTS not being a requirement, that just comes across as idiotic.

So now you are going to stoop to insults? Stay classy.

I said the comment comes across as idiotic, not that you were an idiot. If public test servers were useless, there wouldn't be so many companies using them.

The point is, you edited your comment just to throw that jab in there when it really wasn't necessary. But go ahead and act like it was innocent.

If you haven't noticed, a lot of MMOs use them because it's free testing labor. Because who better to catch the smaller bugs than the players. No, it's not required under any circumstances. They do it because it helps them, because if you can catch something they didn't, then bonus points on fixing it before it goes live.

The problem is, the PTS will be a ghost town in a week. Why? Because all of you who are here complaining about not having access to the PTS will get bored that it's not the live server and leave. You won't actually test it. The majority will browse the changes for a couple hours, maybe look at your class changes, then that's it.

Then the complaints will be that it's not on the live server soon enough. Then, when it hits live and there is a bug, you'll complain and ask "Why did this make it to live", knowing that you never actually tested the game when you were on the PTS to begin with.

Nothing is ever good enough.

Sindala · January 2015

Unless it's an exploit you find on the PTS you don't have to worry about the bugs....they will ALL make it to live

LonePirate · January 2015

Divinius wrote: »

Am I the only person that would rather an update take 3 months longer than planned, than to have them get it out on time but have it be a huge pile of crap?

In theory, you make a good point. However, if history is any indication, 1.6 will be a huge pile of crap when it hits the PTS with a less odoriferous version hitting the live server.

The current delay is most likely due to something major in 1.6 (like the CS) having major problems. The JS is merely an extension of current functionality in the game with a couple of minor tweaks. The skill revamp could have some problems but those seem like they would be isolated enough to release to the PTS and then fix.

This whole 1.6 delay mess speaks volumes about ZOS' inability to estimate and plan properly.

pvpaddict42 · January 2015

Merrak wrote: »

pvpaddict42 wrote: »

Merrak wrote: »

pvpaddict42 wrote: »

You need to reread what is being said here. As far as your comment about PTS not being a requirement, that just comes across as idiotic.

So now you are going to stoop to insults? Stay classy.

I said the comment comes across as idiotic, not that you were an idiot. If public test servers were useless, there wouldn't be so many companies using them.

The point is, you edited your comment just to throw that jab in there when it really wasn't necessary. But go ahead and act like it was innocent.

If you haven't noticed, a lot of MMOs use them because it's free testing labor. Because who better to catch the smaller bugs than the players. No, it's not required under any circumstances. They do it because it helps them, because if you can catch something they didn't, then bonus points on fixing it before it goes live.

The problem is, the PTS will be a ghost town in a week. Why? Because all of you who are here complaining about not having access to the PTS will get bored that it's not the live server and leave. You won't actually test it. The majority will browse the changes for a couple hours, maybe look at your class changes, then that's it.

Then the complaints will be that it's not on the live server soon enough. Then, when it hits live and there is a bug, you'll complain and ask "Why did this make it to live", knowing that you never actually tested the game when you were on the PTS to begin with.

Nothing is ever good enough.

I'm not acting like it was innocent, I'm simply pointing out the difference between a personal attack and a commentary on what was being said. When you state the PTS is not a requirement, it's like stating QA is not a requirement. Does it have to be there for them to push things out? No, not in the strictest sense. And yet they QA because they are trying to get out the best version of their product as possible. That's the point behind the PTS. The more people they can get testing the product, the better the information on the results are going to be and they can make the changes necessary before they sell it (push it to live in this instance).

Some of us here actually do go to the PTS every update and test things out and use bug report system and actually take part to try and make every update as smooth as bug free as possible. Are there people that simply want a sneak preview? Sure, but even in the window of time they might spend testing out their one portion of what interests them, that's still potential information and testing that can contribute to the whole. Feedback about the changes is part of their process as well.

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO · January 2015

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

ZOS: "In response to player feedback, we will now give out CPs based on the EXP you've earned. To implement and test this change however we will need to push our early January PTS release back."

Whiners: "ZOS you lied! You said Update 6 will hit PTS on early January!"

.....

You can't win.

Deciding to hand out 30 to 70 CP according to a simple formula instead of giving everyone 30 CP totally absorbs the combined skill and effort of all the developers for several weeks? Yeah, right.

No, that is not the reason for the delay. They are just late. I can't say I'm surprised. Software projects in general turn out late, buggy and less impressive than planned. I'm not saying I like it, just that this is nothing unusual.

I would have liked ESO to be the shining gem in the pile of mud that is modern game software. I would have liked it to be the exception to the rule that all games are created not to be as good as possible, but just barely good enough to sell. That didn't happen, but I really didn't expect it to. It's like wishing for world peace or hoping to win millions on the lottery: it would be nice, and you can dream, but nobody honestly expects it to happen.

Razzak · January 2015

Merrak wrote: »

pvpaddict42 wrote: »

Merrak wrote: »

It's still January...for another 11 days. Plus, patch notes come out WITH the updates, not before.

On live I can understand the need not to release patch notes before the release of the update. On the test server however, that's a convention that isn't necessary. We know that what get's released on the test server is going to change before it goes to live. It's expected. Releasing the information before it actually gets pushed to the test server seems completely viable to me.

Yes, let's have them release a patch that is so broken that all of you who are complaining about it not being out yet would instead come running back here crying about how something is broken and it's BS that they didn't take their time with the update...

PTS IS NOT A REQUIREMENT. It is something that they let you, the players, check out the content and hopefully test it (which most of you will not actually do) before it goes to the live server.

EDIT: Reread, let me add that NEVER have they released patch notes early...nor should they. If something has to be changed last minute and the post it without it going to PTS, you guys will be even more bent out of shape.

It is required form of testing for ZOS. Even with PTS testing, there will be lots of bugs, due to various reasons, imagine how many there would be without PTS.
People wanting to play on PTS is something ZOS should strive for.

Ahdora · January 2015

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

Whiners: "ZOS you lied! You said EXP will be tracked!"

ZOS: "In response to player feedback, we will now give out CPs based on the EXP you've earned. To implement and test this change however we will need to push our early January PTS release back."

Whiners: "ZOS you lied! You said Update 6 will hit PTS on early January!"

.....

You can't win.

^^ This sums it up quite nicely.