champion points
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Guppet✭✭✭✭✭
✭Averya_Teira wrote: »
It's not a sound business decision lol, it's false advertising, and in non-gaming spheres of the world, that's a major lawsuit lol -_- But companies know that gamers are all talk and no one ever does anything.
No one can do anything due to the TOS they sign, does no one ever read that? Everything is subject to change, so they can never be held to any promises.Edited by Guppet on December 21, 2014 3:24PM1 -
manny254✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Averya_Teira wrote: »
It's not a sound business decision lol, it's false advertising, and in non-gaming spheres of the world, that's a major lawsuit lol -_- But companies know that gamers are all talk and no one ever does anything.
I think we could solve this problem. If they want us all to be equal then well let's make all the zos employees equal. So Paul Sage gets the salary of the lowest paid zos employee.
- Mojican2 -
Averya_Teira✭✭✭✭✭@Guppet
It is still false advertising, customers couldn't make a sound decision about their purchase because they didn't have all and/or the right information easily available, it has nothing to do with the ToS.
False advertising definition:
False advertising or deceptive advertising is the use of false or misleading statements in advertising, and misrepresentation of the product at hand, which may negatively affect many stakeholders, especially consumers.
As advertising has the potential to persuade people into commercial transactions that they might otherwise avoid, many governments around the world use regulations to control false, deceptive or misleading advertising.
To be more specific it falls under this type of false advertising
Failure to Disclose: It is considered false advertising under the Lanham Act if a representation is "untrue as a result of the failure to disclose a material fact." Therefore, false advertising can come from both misstatements and partially correct statements that are misleading because they do not disclose something the consumer should know. The Trademark Law Revision Act of 1988, which added several amendments to the Lanham Act, left creation of the line between sufficient and insufficient disclosure to the discretion of the courts.
Yeah, I felt like a pseudo Internet lawyer this morning... This wouldn't go far in the ''real'' world, but it still proves that what they are doing is not only dishonest, it's some degree of illegal too.Edited by Averya_Teira on December 21, 2014 3:33PM7 -
Skullemainia✭✭✭hé, it's a game, dev's are doing what they think is the best for the game. ok, if you have 2 VR14 players and you're playing this game 24/7, it will not take to long to be ahead of the rest. just play further like you were doing and in less then 2/3 months you will have everything you want. zos is doing you a favor, if you would have the points right now, why would you want to play the game anyway if you couldn't improve your char. anymore??? so stop whining about it!2
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Unlikely_Ghostbuster✭✭✭✭For the people thinking ZOS deliberately lied to you about tracking XP. Think about this.
If ZOS had come out months back and said we are not tracking, most of you would have unsubbed, there and then, so that would have lost them money. Even if you unsub now (the vast majority wont, its mostly just caterwauling, even most of those that do will probably come back) they still made money out of you for those months that they would not have, had they said it wasn't tracked.
Essentially it was a sound business decision. Possibly a bit disingenuous and underhand, but the most profitable decision either way.
Now if it does turn out to be true that 30 is the cap, they will never ever admit the above. It will be a change of development direction and you'll never ever be able to prove otherwise.
Most of the people who quit, did so well before they reached the cap, so to them this is much better than allowing a higher cap and much more likely to bring them back.
That's not a sound business decision -- the way you've described it, ZOS could be sued for misleading consumers. It was *real* time and *real* money for which they have (potentially) manipulated us. That's actionable, no matter what the terms of service say. You can't blithely make/break promises to paying customers in any other industry, and eventually, a law firm will see huge, golden dollar signs behind this type of abusive business practice and take some irresponsible studio for millions.
ZOS has reneged on all sorts of in-game content, but this is quite different. They made assurances to players that kept us subscribed, playing, and PAYING while they went through this long, patchwork, post-release development cycle. Frankly, we could make the sound case that we've been paying Zenimax for the last six months for the privilege of being their QA department for the console version of ESO.
Some say that's always been their sole aim -- console release. It's as if the PC subscribers across several continents have been financing this *additional* development cycle.
Perhaps you want to give ZOS a high-five for having the "keen business acumen" required to systematically mislead their customers, but I'm never all that anxious to praise people who have openly, unabashedly LIED to me, especially when it costs me time and money.4 -
Guppet✭✭✭✭✭
✭Averya_Teira wrote: »@Guppet
It is still false advertising, customers couldn't make a sound decision about their purchase because they didn't have all and/or the right information easily available, it has nothing to do with the ToS.
False advertising definition:
False advertising or deceptive advertising is the use of false or misleading statements in advertising, and misrepresentation of the product at hand, which may negatively affect many stakeholders, especially consumers.
As advertising has the potential to persuade people into commercial transactions that they might otherwise avoid, many governments around the world use regulations to control false, deceptive or misleading advertising.
To be more specific it falls under this type of false advertising
Failure to Disclose: It is considered false advertising under the Lanham Act if a representation is "untrue as a result of the failure to disclose a material fact." Therefore, false advertising can come from both misstatements and partially correct statements that are misleading because they do not disclose something the consumer should know. The Trademark Law Revision Act of 1988, which added several amendments to the Lanham Act, left creation of the line between sufficient and insufficient disclosure to the discretion of the courts.
Yeah, I felt like a pseudo Internet lawyer this morning... This wouldn't go far in the ''real'' world, but it still proves that what they are doing is not only dishonest, it's some degree of illegal too.
Its a continuously developed game, nothing is promised in any way, its all subject to change. Its not false advertising. You may wish it was but its not, they cant be touched and they know it.
No MMO developer has ever been taken to court for something they said they were going to do. If it was false advertising that would have happened. We live in a litigious culture, they know what they can get away with.
If anyone could ever prove that they deliberately and intentionally lied at the start, then they may have a case, they cant prove that though.
Also, to be clear, im not convinced they lied to us, I believe that they may have changed development direction. I was just pointing out to the cynics, that if they did lie, it probably got them a higher income for a while.
Edited by Guppet on December 21, 2014 3:53PM3 -
DeLindsay✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Really? Have you never been to an Auto dealer to buy a car? They lie every single day to every single customer and it's considered business as usual. The energy industry in the USA lied from day one about the harmful effects of Fracking (now proven in multiple studies) and yet they got away with it. The banking industry lies to the American people every single day, as does Congress, and they get away with it. You made a VERY poor argument.Unlikely_Ghostbuster wrote: »You can't blithely make/break promises to paying customers in any other industry, and eventually, a law firm will see huge, golden dollar signs behind this type of abusive business practice and take some irresponsible studio for millions.1 -
Skullemainia✭✭✭call me naive but I think they first wanted to do it like they said, but that it has changed after some meetings and discussions
so please don't arrest them, I want to play eso for a little longer then 8 months 1 -
Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭
No one can do anything due to the TOS they sign, does no one ever read that? Everything is subject to change, so they can never be held to any promises.
All companies are bound by local law and NO terms of service can legally undermine that law. ZOS can write what they like. They break the law they are liable.Anything that can be exploited will be exploited1 -
Guppet✭✭✭✭✭
✭Unlikely_Ghostbuster wrote: »
That's not a sound business decision -- the way you've described it, ZOS could be sued for misleading consumers. It was *real* time and *real* money for which they have (potentially) manipulated us. That's actionable, no matter what the terms of service say. You can't blithely make/break promises to paying customers in any other industry, and eventually, a law firm will see huge, golden dollar signs behind this type of abusive business practice and take some irresponsible studio for millions.
ZOS has reneged on all sorts of in-game content, but this is quite different. They made assurances to players that kept us subscribed, playing, and PAYING while they went through this long, patchwork, post-release development cycle. Frankly, we could make the sound case that we've been paying Zenimax for the last six months for the privilege of being their QA department for the console version of ESO.
Some say that's always been their sole aim -- console release. It's as if the PC subscribers across several continents have been financing this *additional* development cycle.
Perhaps you want to give ZOS a high-five for having the "keen business acumen" required to systematically mislead their customers, but I'm never all that anxious to praise people who have openly, unabashedly LIED to me, especially when it costs me time and money.
You do know what you pay ZOS for right? You money buys you one thing alone, access to their servers. it carries no guarantees of any service or content.
If they replaced the entire world with a giant cheese pizza for you characters to dance on and all your weapons for pizza cutters, you could do jack all about it. Read the TOS!!
From section 1
"By creating an Account, You agree that You do not own the Account, any user names created on the Account, any content stored or associated with an Account (such as digital and/or virtual assets, achievements, virtual currency, and other Downloadable Content), or related data associated with the Account."
From section 6
"ZeniMax reserves the right to change and update Content without notice to You. ZeniMax also reserves the right to refuse Your request(s) to acquire Content, and to limit or block any request to acquire Content, including, but not limited to, Downloadable Content, for any reason.". AKA we can do what ever the hell we like and you cant touch us!
So like I say, anyone that signed the TOS cant touch them on this.Edited by Guppet on December 21, 2014 4:17PM2 -
Soulshine✭✭✭✭✭
✭belgarion1270ub17_ESO wrote: »I really think this is long term planning at its best. In defense of ZoS and purely from a business perspective...rewarding all these accounts with multiple VR's and especially those with multiple VR14s with a stack of champion points would be very counter productive to getting new subs.
Imagine starting off with a fresh account, if those with VR14s got a ton of points to spend, how very far off the curve you would be. It would be a mountain I absolutely would not want to climb.
This way seems fair and keeps the player base equal terms or near. And doesn't separate the casuals from the hardcore too significantly. Sounds like a good decision to me.
In a nutshell, this is the reality of MMO play. No matter what system the game itself uses, no matter what it is called, how it is earned, or at what pace... at the end of the day, once a game has been out for so long, there will ALWAYS be a set of players who have been there from the beginning who will be at the cap and far away advanced in stats and gear compared to new accounts - there is no way to dress that up and make it look any different no matter what pipe dreams the devs put out there. It is just the nature of MMOs. Once they decided to enter this arena, they should have realized that is the reality with which to contend.
I have been on board with this game since beta and have seen them make more mistakes and changes to those mistakes within the first six months than I have in any other game I have played for years. PS's communiucation skills in particular are so appaulingly poor for someone in his position within a company, I have long since stopped accepting anything he says as meaningful. That this company did not THINK far enough ahead or rearch their own market sufficiently to GET how these things works is on them, not the players for taking them at their word - worthless though it contines to prove at this point, given the constant backpeddling, often lack of clarity when asked direct questions, etc.4 -
manny254✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
You do know what you pay ZOS for right? You money buys you one thing alone, access to their servers. it carries no guarantees of any service or content.
If they replaced the entire world with a giant cheese pizza for you characters to dance on and all your weapons for pizza cutters, you could do jack all about it. Read the TOS!!
From section 1
"By creating an Account, You agree that You do not own the Account, any user names created on the Account, any content stored or associated with an Account (such as digital and/or virtual assets, achievements, virtual currency, and other Downloadable Content), or related data associated with the Account."
From section 6
"ZeniMax reserves the right to change and update Content without notice to You. ZeniMax also reserves the right to refuse Your request(s) to acquire Content, and to limit or block any request to acquire Content, including, but not limited to, Downloadable Content, for any reason.". AKA we can do what ever the hell we like and you cant touch us!
So like I say, anyone that signed the TOS cant touch them on this.
Well that is wonderful. I guess you can tell all the people that choose to unsubscribe that their reason is invalid. I wonder if this will change their mind.Edited by manny254 on December 21, 2014 4:20PM- Mojican4 -
barrrt✭✭✭Sigh. So many people get worked up about nothing.
You are not getting screwed by ZoS because your eight VR14s are not getting more CPs than my VR3/VR1. Once 1.6 hits the server, your toon will still be more powerful than mine *because VR levels are not going away in 1.6*. Giving you more CPs would make that difference even larger.
Let that sink in for a while… then put your pitchfork down.
I don’t know what will happen in 1.7 (or whenever VR levels are finally removed), but I bet ZoS is not 100% sure either (otherwise they would be going away in 1.6). A game like this is a very complex system and I bet they want to see how the Champion System works, and tweak it, before deciding what is the best way to remove VR levels and how to compensate for them, if at all.
And let’s not forget we’ve already gotten extra attribute and skill points (or was it one but not the other?) for each VR level when VPs were converted to XPs recently. So, there is a precedence for ZoS doing the right thing to compensate players for extra “work” they have done - 1.6 is not a place for that though.EP: Veren Sailenar - 50 DK : Isabeau Sette Tyne - 50 Sorc : This-One-Lizard-Yes - 50 Templar : Lililia Adal - 50 NB : Solea Caro - 50 DK : Igor with Vigor - 50 Sorc : Slightly-Delays-Death - 50 Templar : Balki Barthel - 50 Warden : Willowshade Roxie - 50 Warden : Violetha Adal - 50 Templar : Andriel Greenarrow - 50 NB: Fleshy Leon - 50 Necro: Bonita Lacrimosa - 50 Nacro
AD: Kael Spellbinder - 50 Templar
DC: Sharrku gra-Dusku - 50 NB5 -
EQBallzz✭✭✭✭✭
✭lordrichter wrote: »
Quickly?
They consider the next several WEEKS to be the time to clarify these things.
They said on ESO Live that they would clarify a few things next week. They said in the forum that they have articles that they are going to publish in January about the various systems that will answer a lot of questions. They stated that Update 6 will be on the PTS in January. All of these things presented as the place to find answers to all questions about what was discussed on ESO Live.
People are in a panic because they simply believe what is being written in the forum without bothering to check the ultimate source, ESO Live. If you want clarification, go listen to what they say in ESO Live. When you are done, tick off what you did not hear them say. You did not hear them say that existing XP was being tossed out *. Right now, that is a fabrication. You did not hear that 30 cookies was the cookie cap*, but you did hear that every Veteran gets a 30 cookie reward immediately when they log in after Update 6 goes live.
You also heard that they don't want a huge gap generated between what you can do today and what you will be able to do when the system goes live. We do not yet know what that means, but we will find out in the next few weeks. I am sure that this is the source of the Great Cookie Panic of 2014.
(Man, thanks to the guy who invented Champion Point=Cookie, makes these threads much more fun to write in)
Personally, I am looking forward to the additional information that will be coming out in the next 2-3 weeks, or so. I would prefer that it all be in one place, and not scattered all over the forum, so I am really looking forward to the articles. It is clear that this will be the best source of information.
(* If anyone can give me a timestamp where any of these things were actually said in a quotable form, let me know. I have listened to the show three times now. It is starting to lose excitement for me, but if you can provide a direct timestamp where they actually say the XP is being tossed, or that there will absolutely not be more than 30 cookies for existing players, I will listen again and post the quotes myself.)
What they said was every veteran player vet 1 and up would receive 30 CP. What they didn't clarify was if 30 CP was a starting point and would increase with more and more vet levels or if 30 CP was across the board. The way it was phrased sounded like across the board but it could be interpreted both ways. The problem is the lack of clarification and like some have stated..they responded to other threads and yet have said nothing about this.1 -
Skullemainia✭✭✭
You do know what you pay ZOS for right? You money buys you one thing alone, access to their servers. it carries no guarantees of any service or content.
If they replaced the entire world with a giant cheese pizza for you characters to dance on and all your weapons for pizza cutters, you could do jack all about it. Read the TOS!!
From section 1
"By creating an Account, You agree that You do not own the Account, any user names created on the Account, any content stored or associated with an Account (such as digital and/or virtual assets, achievements, virtual currency, and other Downloadable Content), or related data associated with the Account."
From section 6
"ZeniMax reserves the right to change and update Content without notice to You. ZeniMax also reserves the right to refuse Your request(s) to acquire Content, and to limit or block any request to acquire Content, including, but not limited to, Downloadable Content, for any reason.". AKA we can do what ever the hell we like and you cant touch us!
So like I say, anyone that signed the TOS cant touch them on this.
ohhh, it would be so cool to be on a pizza and fight each other with pizza cutters. image that... XP0 -
Unlikely_Ghostbuster✭✭✭✭Really? Have you never been to an Auto dealer to buy a car? They lie every single day to every single customer and it's considered business as usual. The energy industry in the USA lied from day one about the harmful effects of Fracking (now proven in multiple studies) and yet they got away with it. The banking industry lies to the American people every single day, as does Congress, and they get away with it. You made a VERY poor argument.
Wow! You're the *ideal* consumer -- you take a slap to the face and question whether or not you have the right to be upset because of.... car salesmen?
Oh, and by the way, your counterargument failed because you've clearly never heard of Lemon Laws. Car salesmen *can* be held legally accountable for deceiving their customers. You *can* sue them for telling you things that are not true. That's the American way.
Also, the people being victimized by fracking aren't the customers -- the victims are the people whose water is being tainted by the actual process. In Capitalist USA, the consumer has rights and protections left and right, while the environment does not. See the difference?
Customers have rights. We are customers. ZOS is not the auto industry, the energy industry, or the banking industry -- as far as I know, the gaming industry hasn't purchased any Congressman -- so your hyperbole is WAY over the top.3 -
manny254✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Sigh. So many people get worked up about nothing.
You are not getting screwed by ZoS because your eight VR14s are not getting more CPs than my VR3/VR1. Once 1.6 hits the server, your toon will still be more powerful than mine *because VR levels are not going away in 1.6*. Giving you more CPs would make that difference even larger.
You are missing the point of the issue. It will be easier for you to get cp when the update goes live. We have already completed the quests we can not gain cp from them. So you have a more content available to gain cp than I do.- Mojican3 -
EQBallzz✭✭✭✭✭
✭I understand full well how the Champion Points will be earned, but it doesn't change the fact that in my example Player B had more total game time than Player A, therefore Player A crying that it's unfair that they get the same starting cap is moot. I also understand that my example isn't the norm, but to the same point you saying that players who have multiple VR14's that did it normally by finishing all the quests is misleading. There are some who love questing, there are some who hate questing. There are MANY who used the Vet WS first boss exploit early on to get 1-3 VR10's in an absurdly short time. Why does that person think he/she is entitled to more starting points than a player who didn't use an exploit? I'm also not saying everyone used that exploit, or the broken Craglorn mechanic where you could pull the boss scorpion over and over again until ZoS fixed it, but MANY did.
The point is, ZoS had to place an initial cap on the Champion System, and regardless of what that cap was going to be, some were going to be outraged. The only way around that is to find the single player with the most earned Veteran XP and make them the cap, but that could've been 1000+ points of the 3600, which would give them a massive lead over the rest of the population, which you cannot do in an MMO. All of those players with multiple VR14's will pull ahead of the rest of the population quickly after 1.6 launches anyway so they can have their epeen back.
Some people in this discussion just lack a basic ability to understand the fundamental problem. It has nothing to do with played time or "deserving" anything and has everything to do with game mechanics. If you have used up the bulk of your access to gaining XP in the Champion system (veteran content) you have a very limited access to the potential pool of CP that will be available when this goes live.
Do you really think it's appropriate to force max level characters to endlessly grind mobs for XP to advance in the Champion system if they hate to grind? Is it really fair that someone who just happened to start later will have access to this greater pool of XP while loyal fans/customers who have played since early release are penalized for having consumed said content? That makes no sense.6 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Unlikely_Ghostbuster wrote: »@manny254 raised the important point that ZOS would have "put out this fire" already, if our concerns were unfounded. So despite being able to fill the Grand Canyon with all the things that *weren't* explicitly said during the ESO Live broadcast, I'll remain justifiably concerned until I hear otherwise about this "flat 30" nonsense.
All we know is that we don't know *anything* definitively until ZOS responds. With that uncertainty comes all the bad feelings that typically follow. Those bad feelings won't go away until ZOS gives us a definitive answer to this question.
No one who has been around Zenimax for any significant length of time would expect them to put out this fire, especially not on the weekend.
There have been more serious fires than this that were allowed to burn a lot longer. Each time, I watched in amazement as they did nothing. Total silence.
In time, we will find out the answer to these issues, and they know it. I don't expect that responding to rumors generated in the forum, whether true or false, is a priority that they have. They know that if they say nothing, we will eventually get the answer anyway. They also know that the Great Cookie Panic will burn out of its own accord after a few days.
The Great Cookie Panic, which is the removal of earned Veteran XP, goes back to forum comments from just two people. None of this has any concrete basis at all in anything that was actually said in ESO Live. They never even got close to talking about the previously earned VR experience and how that works in the Champion System. No amount of "but they didn't say otherwise" changes that.
The "30 cookie cap" is something that they did not say attributed to something that they did say. They actually talked about 30 cookies. At no time did they say anything about a cap, or even say that 30 cookies was an absolute. It was specifically mentioned as a reward in the context of rewarding different styles of play.
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Unlikely_Ghostbuster✭✭✭✭
You do know what you pay ZOS for right? You money buys you one thing alone, access to their servers. it carries no guarantees of any service or content.
If they replaced the entire world with a giant cheese pizza for you characters to dance on and all your weapons for pizza cutters, you could do jack all about it. Read the TOS!!
From section 1
"By creating an Account, You agree that You do not own the Account, any user names created on the Account, any content stored or associated with an Account (such as digital and/or virtual assets, achievements, virtual currency, and other Downloadable Content), or related data associated with the Account."
From section 6
"ZeniMax reserves the right to change and update Content without notice to You. ZeniMax also reserves the right to refuse Your request(s) to acquire Content, and to limit or block any request to acquire Content, including, but not limited to, Downloadable Content, for any reason.". AKA we can do what ever the hell we like and you cant touch us!
So like I say, anyone that signed the TOS cant touch them on this.
Not the same thing. They're not backing out of and/or removing CONTENT. They're backing out of assurances they made to their customers -- the assurance that, if we keep subscribed, playing, and paying, there would be a translation of experience points into champion points.
They didn't promise us another dungeon or a zone that they've reconsidered -- they promised our time (and money) spent would be rewarded.
They're not reneging on the release of any content, but they are reneging on their end of a bargain: that players who kept playing would be rewarded proportionally for their efforts. We held up our end, and ZOS has demonstrably benefited financially because of it. They benefited by making false promises that clearly fall outside the terms of service, as there is no content at stake.
And the "if you don't like it, stop playing" retort does nothing to get back the hours and hours I dedicated to this game in good faith.
Frankly, I'm a little surprised by the visible capitulation to ZOS on this issue. Some people just love siding with the establishment, I suppose.8 -
barrrt✭✭✭You are missing the point of the issue. It will be easier for you to get cp when the update goes live. We have already completed the quests we can not gain cp from them. So you have a more content available to gain cp than I do.
Certainly a valid point.
I will have more varied opportunities for CP if I chose to play Silver/Gold (which I haven't other than grabbing few skyshards, opting for PvP instead). But XP will be obtainable from all kinds of play, no? Dungeons, trials, PvP (I seem to get 477XP every few minutes just sitting in a keep, much more often when doing something).
EP: Veren Sailenar - 50 DK : Isabeau Sette Tyne - 50 Sorc : This-One-Lizard-Yes - 50 Templar : Lililia Adal - 50 NB : Solea Caro - 50 DK : Igor with Vigor - 50 Sorc : Slightly-Delays-Death - 50 Templar : Balki Barthel - 50 Warden : Willowshade Roxie - 50 Warden : Violetha Adal - 50 Templar : Andriel Greenarrow - 50 NB: Fleshy Leon - 50 Necro: Bonita Lacrimosa - 50 Nacro
AD: Kael Spellbinder - 50 Templar
DC: Sharrku gra-Dusku - 50 NB0 -
manny254✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
1st off not everyone plays pvp. I once enjoyed it, but can not take it for more than 15 mins now.
Certainly a valid point.
I will have more varied opportunities for CP if I chose to play Silver/Gold (which I haven't other than grabbing few skyshards, opting for PvP instead). But XP will be obtainable from all kinds of play, no? Dungeons, trials, PvP (I seem to get 477XP every few minutes just sitting in a keep, much more often when doing something).
2nd dungeons and such have never really given good xp. The initial quest sure but you don't get much after that. Recently it has become more effective to kill a group of trash mobs than a boss for xp. Even undaunted pledges give you only 2 quests a day.
- Mojican2 -
DeLindsay✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Dungeons and PvP are both having their XP increased in 1.6.1st off not everyone plays pvp. I once enjoyed it, but can not take it for more than 15 mins now.
2nd dungeons and such have never really given good xp. The initial quest sure but you don't get much after that. Recently it has become more effective to kill a group of trash mobs than a boss for xp. Even undaunted pledges give you only 2 quests a day.1 -
Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Certainly a valid point.
I will have more varied opportunities for CP if I chose to play Silver/Gold (which I haven't other than grabbing few skyshards, opting for PvP instead). But XP will be obtainable from all kinds of play, no? Dungeons, trials, PvP (I seem to get 477XP every few minutes just sitting in a keep, much more often when doing something).
But to be harsh... zenimax could satisfy that argument by resetting all VET characters to Vet1....thus allowing you the same content to advance as everyone else + 30 points.
But I guess you wouldn't like that ...pmsl.
So would you prefer to keep your vet level + 30 points or surrender your vet level + 30 points and lots of viable exp.Anything that can be exploited will be exploited2 -
Guppet✭✭✭✭✭
✭Unlikely_Ghostbuster wrote: »
Not the same thing. They're not backing out of and/or removing CONTENT. They're backing out of assurances they made to their customers -- the assurance that, if we keep subscribed, playing, and paying, there would be a translation of experience points into champion points.
They didn't promise us another dungeon or a zone that they've reconsidered -- they promised our time (and money) spent would be rewarded.
They're not reneging on the release of any content, but they are reneging on their end of a bargain: that players who kept playing would be rewarded proportionally for their efforts. We held up our end, and ZOS has demonstrably benefited financially because of it. They benefited by making false promises that clearly fall outside the terms of service, as there is no content at stake.
And the "if you don't like it, stop playing" retort does nothing to get back the hours and hours I dedicated to this game in good faith.
Frankly, I'm a little surprised by the visible capitulation to ZOS on this issue. Some people just love siding with the establishment, I suppose.
I'm done with arguing about the legality of it now. Just so you don't get your hopes up
about getting into a debate to pass the time (I do that frequently on long train journeys).0 -
Unlikely_Ghostbuster✭✭✭✭lordrichter wrote: »
No one who has been around Zenimax for any significant length of time would expect them to put out this fire, especially not on the weekend.
There have been more serious fires than this that were allowed to burn a lot longer. Each time, I watched in amazement as they did nothing. Total silence.
In time, we will find out the answer to these issues, and they know it. I don't expect that responding to rumors generated in the forum, whether true or false, is a priority that they have. They know that if they say nothing, we will eventually get the answer anyway. They also know that the Great Cookie Panic will burn out of its own accord after a few days.
The Great Cookie Panic, which is the removal of earned Veteran XP, goes back to forum comments from just two people. None of this has any concrete basis at all in anything that was actually said in ESO Live. They never even got close to talking about the previously earned VR experience and how that works in the Champion System. No amount of "but they didn't say otherwise" changes that.
The "30 cookie cap" is something that they did not say attributed to something that they did say. They actually talked about 30 cookies. At no time did they say anything about a cap, or even say that 30 cookies was an absolute. It was specifically mentioned as a reward in the context of rewarding different styles of play.
I'm not sure calling them "cookies" gives the case people are trying to make adequate credibility -- it's as if you're trying to automatically assign the people on one side of this potential problem the role of petulant children by relabeling Champion Points as "cookies." Yes, I'm sure it's a lot of fun when you're the one using the term and you're not the one whose position is being undermined, but can we just call them Champion Points, please?
I'm one of many people who watched ESO Live specifically looking for numbers on XP --> CP conversions. After the discussion of the flat 30 points (between 1:06 and 1:09 in the YouTube rebroadcast with the twitch chat -- the portion in which Stiffler/Wrobel kept interrupting), Maria Aliprando says the following, word for word:
Maria: "It's about an hour of, uh, ya know experience gaining playtime, uh, to get a champion point while you're enlightened, it's Ok, we'll talk about enlightenment in a second. Umm. (Wrobel interrupts her) And because the points are so much more powerful than they originally were in the original system, uh, and, uh, we want to make sure that we're rewarding different styles of, uh, play, uh, what we're gonna do is as long as you have a veteran character, you will be rewarded with 30 champion points on the onset of the system.
Uh, so as soon as you log in (Wrobel interrupts "Nice" + "Nice"), day one, you get 30 points, you'll have 30 points, that gives three of the ten point unlocks, 'cause you have to go around the constellations and we'll talk about that in a second. Um, and there's several reasons we did that (Wrobel interrupts: "It's like you have a lot to tell us or something") I do, Eric! (Wrobel: "Tell me faster, talk really quickly!") You should tell us about every single ability that got changed. (Wrobel: "I need a bigger notepad.")
We'll talk about it in a second. I got an excel, (Gina interrupts: "Maria, you can just hold up your notes and let people read it all.") I got a, I got an excel sheet with me we can talk about. (Wrobel: "ooooh, that is lookin' good.") But, but uh, what it'll let you do is, um, it makes it so players aren't so, umm, radically, uh, separated from each other at the onset of the system. The other thing we want to make sure with the rebalancing of everything is we went and re-we rebalanced all the, uh, the monsters, and uh, trials was a huge thing, uh, and we wanna make sure (Wrobel talks over her: "Dungeons, over world, we did some stuff.") Everything. Ya, everything. And we-we...ya. And we wa... (Gina: "So...") And we wanna make sure that you're able to continue doing the content that you already know you can do. (Gina: "Right.") So on the onset of this system, we don't want you to, you know, I was able to beat the mage, and now I can't, you know, like, what's up with that? Uh, so we, we really wanted to avoid that."
Gina: "So when this comes out, umm, you said as long as you have a character that's at least veteran rank one (Maria: "Yup."), you get 30 points (Maria: "Yup"), is that then all of your other characters, too? (Maria: "Yes. So...") Excellent."
Maria: "So all of your -- well, it's account-wide, right? So all the characters on your account will have 30 points to spend. So your level 20 character will have 30 points to spend and your veteran five character will have 20 points to spend. (Gina: "So it's not a shared pool.") No, it's not a shared pool."
Jason: "No one likes a shared pool."
That's all the dialogue from ESO Live germane to the current discussion, verbatim. The next minute or so was just banter about the pug shirt.
Other than the accidental slip of the tongue about the VR5 character having 20 points (she intended to say 30, I'm certain), unless she was just shooting from the hip and/or not thinking about her word choice very carefully, she said a VR5 character will have 30 points to spend (just like your level 20 alt) from the onset of the Champion System. That's why everyone is upset -- were we getting our XP translated into Champion Points, the VR5 would arguably be getting more than 30 points from the onset.
Not to mention what she said, earlier on, about ensuring players aren't "radically separated" from each other at the onset of the system. It's hard to piece it all together, precisely, given the broken sentences, unspecified pronouns, and Eric Wrobel constantly interrupting, but the impression the above dialogue gave me was that we're only getting 30 points, regardless of the XP they claimed they were tracking.3 -
DanielMaxwell✭✭✭If you take what game developers say (including promises) you are very new to the world of computer gaming , since anybody who has been around for any time exceeding 5 years would know that things change during the development of various game systems and mechanics leading to changes to what was planned or promised.2
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Lonestryder✭✭✭Unlikely_Ghostbuster wrote: »
I'm not sure calling them "cookies" gives the case people are trying to make adequate credibility -- it's as if you're trying to automatically assign the people on one side of this potential problem the role of petulant children by relabeling Champion Points as "cookies." Yes, I'm sure it's a lot of fun when you're the one using the term and you're not the one whose position is being undermined, but can we just call them Champion Points, please?
I'm one of many people who watched ESO Live specifically looking for numbers on XP --> CP conversions. After the discussion of the flat 30 points (between 1:06 and 1:09 in the YouTube rebroadcast with the twitch chat -- the portion in which Stiffler/Wrobel kept interrupting), Maria Aliprando says the following, word for word:
Maria: "It's about an hour of, uh, ya know experience gaining playtime, uh, to get a champion point while you're enlightened, it's Ok, we'll talk about enlightenment in a second. Umm. (Wrobel interrupts her) And because the points are so much more powerful than they originally were in the original system, uh, and, uh, we want to make sure that we're rewarding different styles of, uh, play, uh, what we're gonna do is as long as you have a veteran character, you will be rewarded with 30 champion points on the onset of the system.
Uh, so as soon as you log in (Wrobel interrupts "Nice" + "Nice"), day one, you get 30 points, you'll have 30 points, that gives three of the ten point unlocks, 'cause you have to go around the constellations and we'll talk about that in a second. Um, and there's several reasons we did that (Wrobel interrupts: "It's like you have a lot to tell us or something") I do, Eric! (Wrobel: "Tell me faster, talk really quickly!") You should tell us about every single ability that got changed. (Wrobel: "I need a bigger notepad.")
We'll talk about it in a second. I got an excel, (Gina interrupts: "Maria, you can just hold up your notes and let people read it all.") I got a, I got an excel sheet with me we can talk about. (Wrobel: "ooooh, that is lookin' good.") But, but uh, what it'll let you do is, um, it makes it so players aren't so, umm, radically, uh, separated from each other at the onset of the system. The other thing we want to make sure with the rebalancing of everything is we went and re-we rebalanced all the, uh, the monsters, and uh, trials was a huge thing, uh, and we wanna make sure (Wrobel talks over her: "Dungeons, over world, we did some stuff.") Everything. Ya, everything. And we-we...ya. And we wa... (Gina: "So...") And we wanna make sure that you're able to continue doing the content that you already know you can do. (Gina: "Right.") So on the onset of this system, we don't want you to, you know, I was able to beat the mage, and now I can't, you know, like, what's up with that? Uh, so we, we really wanted to avoid that."
Gina: "So when this comes out, umm, you said as long as you have a character that's at least veteran rank one (Maria: "Yup."), you get 30 points (Maria: "Yup"), is that then all of your other characters, too? (Maria: "Yes. So...") Excellent."
Maria: "So all of your -- well, it's account-wide, right? So all the characters on your account will have 30 points to spend. So your level 20 character will have 30 points to spend and your veteran five character will have 20 points to spend. (Gina: "So it's not a shared pool.") No, it's not a shared pool."
Jason: "No one likes a shared pool."
That's all the dialogue from ESO Live germane to the current discussion, verbatim. The next minute or so was just banter about the pug shirt.
Other than the accidental slip of the tongue about the VR5 character having 20 points (she intended to say 30, I'm certain), unless she was just shooting from the hip and/or not thinking about her word choice very carefully, she said a VR5 character will have 30 points to spend (just like your level 20 alt) from the onset of the Champion System. That's why everyone is upset -- were we getting our XP translated into Champion Points, the VR5 would arguably be getting more than 30 points from the onset.
Not to mention what she said, earlier on, about ensuring players aren't "radically separated" from each other at the onset of the system. It's hard to piece it all together, precisely, given the broken sentences, unspecified pronouns, and Eric Wrobel constantly interrupting, but the impression the above dialogue gave me was that we're only getting 30 points, regardless of the XP they claimed they were tracking.
How embarrassing for them if they actually read their dialogue word-for-word. It reads like teenagers with no ability to focus or even finish a complete thought or sentence.
They need to explain this in writing. The above "explanation" is worse than no information at all.6 -
olemanwinter✭✭✭✭✭Had they said back in October "Keep playing your VR characters, we are tracking the XP for the Champion System, but keep in mind the starting cap will be low" then fewer players would be.
Did they really even track XP? If so, WHY?
All you have to do is get to lvl 50 (VR1) and you hit the cap. That requires zero tracking of XP. zero.
I call BS on the whole thing. There was no misunderstanding.
3 -
olemanwinter✭✭✭✭✭Averya_Teira wrote: »It's not a sound business decision lol, it's false advertising, and in non-gaming spheres of the world, that's a major lawsuit lol -_- But companies know that gamers are all talk and no one ever does anything.
Indeed. Games to gamers = crack to crackheads.
Yeah, so your crack dealer lied to you. Whatcha gonna do? Quit crack?
Edited by olemanwinter on December 21, 2014 7:02PM2