Suggestions for an eventual Khajiit-centric update

Robocles

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Kudos for putting all this together, @Gidorick. It's a really cool post.

Which will result in absolutely nothing.

Gidorick

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

@Gidorick, Bethesda Studios, ya know the people who made Elder Scrolls. The playable khajiit originally had digitgrade feet. Example;
(snip)
Bethesda Studios thought it was best to just change the khajiit's digitgrade feet to plantigrade feet. Instead of making alternative boots for beast races they decided to save resources and time for more important stuff.

So lorewise the playable beast races still have digitgrade feet. Bethesda Studios only made the change to plantigrade feet to save time, money, and to make it more convenient for players.

That image was from Morrowind I think and I think you're right that the reason Khajiit and Argonian got plantigrade feet in Oblivion was to make development easier. The thing is, Morrowind was the ONLY game in which the two races had digitigrade feet. Arena, Daggerfall, Oblivion, Skyrim, and Online all have plantigrade feet.

If it's either or, it should be plantigrade but I think ZOS would make many Khajiit happy if they included the option to be either.

Gidorick

Robocles wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Kudos for putting all this together, @Gidorick. It's a really cool post.

Which will result in absolutely nothing.

Probably not... that's ok I guess.

Heishi

Gidorick wrote: »

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

@Gidorick, Bethesda Studios, ya know the people who made Elder Scrolls. The playable khajiit originally had digitgrade feet. Example;
(snip)
Bethesda Studios thought it was best to just change the khajiit's digitgrade feet to plantigrade feet. Instead of making alternative boots for beast races they decided to save resources and time for more important stuff.

So lorewise the playable beast races still have digitgrade feet. Bethesda Studios only made the change to plantigrade feet to save time, money, and to make it more convenient for players.

That image was from Morrowind I think and I think you're right that the reason Khajiit and Argonian got plantigrade feet in Oblivion was to make development easier. The thing is, Morrowind was the ONLY game in which the two races had digitigrade feet. Arena, Daggerfall, Oblivion, Skyrim, and Online all have plantigrade feet.

If it's either or, it should be plantigrade but I think ZOS would make many Khajiit happy if they included the option to be either.

The reason for the plantigrade vs digitigrade feed besides developement reason is because they are different types of Khajiit.

Most of the TES games that have the plantigrade feet (Oblivion, Skyrim, and ESO) are Cathay. Morrowind distinctly uses the Suthay-raht. I'm not sure what they were in Arena and Daggerfall.

That said I would like to see some of the other types of Khajiit in ESO (besides the beastly Senche, Alfiq,). Also besides the Mane which they kinda botched.

The Mane is called so for his long-grown mane, which is braided with the manes of other Khajiit who shave off their own manes as a sign of respect.

Don't get me wrong, I thought the twin sisters was a pretty cool quest line, very well done. Lots of a emotions and they felt like full fleshed out characters unlike certain fanservice chars *cough*Naryu*cough*, but it more or less undoes the whole Khajiit chart.

Basically if a female without a mane can be born under the moon alignment for the mane it means that the Khajiit species wouldn't be tied to the moon sign they are born under.

In fairness, this could make more sense too. I had always wondered how say.. an Alfiq could birth a Senche or Cathay-raht. Also, were these tied to moon, you would see a variety in any city the Khajiit are in. The exception would be if their mating/birthing seasons aligned with the moon cycles a certain way. For example, Cathay only give birth on days when Masser was waxing and Secunda was full.

Maybe @ZOS_GinaBruno‌ or @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌ could get the Loremaster to give us some clarification of what's going on here I know in the last twitch stream they shared some odd questions posed to the Loremaster, I don't think this can be any worse ^.^

Gidorick

I pretty much always thought all Khajiit are born looking the same:

Then, as they grow they become different from one another. All Khajiit are of the same "tribe", unlike Argonians.

An Alfiq can give birth to a Cathay, or a Sanche or a Suthay. It all depends on the timing of the birth and the cycle of the moons.

Heishi

Gidorick wrote: »

I pretty much always thought all Khajiit are born looking the same:

Then, as they grow they become different from one another. All Khajiit are of the same "tribe", unlike Argonians.

An Alfiq can give birth to a Cathay, or a Sanche or a Suthay. It all depends on the timing of the birth and the cycle of the moons.

That's actually quite the eloquent answer to it. I hadn't considered the same size birth and forming after.

AlexDougherty

Heishi wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

I pretty much always thought all Khajiit are born looking the same:

Then, as they grow they become different from one another. All Khajiit are of the same "tribe", unlike Argonians.

An Alfiq can give birth to a Cathay, or a Sanche or a Suthay. It all depends on the timing of the birth and the cycle of the moons.

That's actually quite the eloquent answer to it. I hadn't considered the same size birth and forming after.

Yeah, if you think about it, it would have to be that way.

Mind you how a Alfiq could raise a Cathay is another story, in fact when you consider all the variations between parents and children it boggles the mind.
Can't go further without becoming political, but practical solutions would be emotionally brutal, and non-upsetting solutions would be impractical.

Gidorick

It takes a village.

Throren

it's even crazier when you realize types like Senche-raht are close to 13 feet tall at the shoulder when fully grown. (OP got their height wrong) That's about the size of a full grown male african elephant.

zward887_ESO

This is all very cool stuff, I really need to go back and actually put more than a couple hours into Oblivion and Skyrim.

However, my one point of feedback is that race-exclusive mounts are not very cash shop friendly, so I wouldn't even bother. We will definitely be seeing senche mounts eventually though. I would be amazed, especially after their popularity in WoW-vanilla, if we don't see senche mounts on the cash shop by the end of the year.

Gidorick

zward887_ESO wrote: »

This is all very cool stuff, I really need to go back and actually put more than a couple hours into Oblivion and Skyrim.

However, my one point of feedback is that race-exclusive mounts are not very cash shop friendly, so I wouldn't even bother. We will definitely be seeing senche mounts eventually though. I would be amazed, especially after their popularity in WoW-vanilla, if we don't see senche mounts on the cash shop by the end of the year.

Well, this was written prior to cash shop announcement so.... yea. It would have to change.

Gidorick

Throren wrote: »

it's even crazier when you realize types like Senche-raht are close to 13 feet tall at the shoulder when fully grown. (OP got their height wrong) That's about the size of a full grown male african elephant.

Do you have a source for the Size? All I've ever seen is "stands as tall as two Altmer". I take that as on its hind legs.

If you took a tiger and made it so large that it would be about as tall as a horse on all fours then had it stand on its hind legs... It would be well over 10 feet tall

If that size is it standing on all fours. woah.

KhajitFurTrader

I for one am all for having more Khajiit in the world of Tamriel. Just thinking of the business opportunities...

(Very cool post. This kind of lore stuff is amazing!)

Gidorick

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

I for one am all for having more Khajiit in the world of Tamriel. Just thinking of the business opportunities...

(Very cool post. This kind of lore stuff is amazing!)

Thanks. I love this lore stuff too! I did a write up on Argonians also.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/147221/concept-for-a-future-argonian-centric-update

Shunravi

Gidorick wrote: »

Throren wrote: »

it's even crazier when you realize types like Senche-raht are close to 13 feet tall at the shoulder when fully grown. (OP got their height wrong) That's about the size of a full grown male african elephant.

Do you have a source for the Size? All I've ever seen is "stands as tall as two Altmer". I take that as on its hind legs.

If you took a tiger and made it so large that it would be about as tall as a horse on all fours then had it stand on its hind legs... It would be well over 10 feet tall

If that size is it standing on all fours. woah.

I have said this before on other threads, but you will notice several extremely large tiger skulls in various places in game. They look something like this;

ZOS has rescaled the sizes in many areas, but if you go inside the bone orchard, or elden hollow, for instance, you can see these massive skulls. These could only be from a being of that hight and weight.

Gidorick

elden hollow eh? Anyone have an in game picture of this?

Shunravi

Gidorick wrote: »

elden hollow eh? Anyone have an in game picture of this?

Gona get one when I'm back in game. If you go to the bone orchard, there is an example of one that was scaled down as well. It's the one in the excavated pit that dringoth talks to during the quest. That one used to be much bigger. You can also find some arround bosmer settlements.

Gidorick

I watched a YouTube video and you're right! A cat with a skull that size would be HUGE. I don't know of ANY mammoth sized wild cats in lore. It has to be the Senche-Raht.

Do you think a mount that size could even work in ESO?

Shunravi

Ok, here are the screens

The really big one in EH;


**** bosmer;


This is one that was resized. A rather troubling trend imo...

Heishi

Interestingly what I believe is the original source of the types of khajiit reads a little different than the wiki. Not much but enough to be noteworthy.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/interviews-3-booksellers

Khajiit are bound to the Lunar Lattice, the ja'Kha'jay. The phases of Masser and Secunda at birth determine the form a Khajiit takes in life. Khajiti newborns look very similar to one another, with their form becoming clear over several weeks. We are smaller than you humans when we are born, but we grow faster.

When Masser is new and Secunda is full, the Ohmes is born. They are like the Bosmer, but sometimes shorter. Many Ohmes tattoo their faces to show they are Khajiit.

When Masser is new and Secunda is waxing, the Ohmes-raht is born. They have light fur and a tail, but they walk on their heels like men, and can be mistaken for men at a distance.

When Masser and Secunda are new, the Suthay is born. They look similar to Jobasha, but smaller.

When Masser is new and Secunda is waning, the Suthay-raht is born. Jobasha is a Suthay-raht, as are nearly all Khajiit in Morrowind. Other races call the Suthay-raht "Ja'Khajiit," but Jobasha knows not why. "Ja'Khajiit" is one of our words for Mehrunes Dagon.

When Masser is waxing and Secunda is full, the Cathay is born. They are larger than Jobasha, and stronger.

When Masser and Secunda are waxing, the Cathay-raht is born. They are even larger and stronger than the Cathay.

When Masser is waxing and Secunda is new, the Tojay is born.

When Masser is waxing and Secunda is waning, the Tojay-raht is born.

When Masser is waning and Secunda is full, the Alfiq is born. The Alfiq is like what you would call a "housecat." Jobasha does not advise calling an Alfiq a "housecat," for while they are not made to speak your language, they do understand it.

When Masser is waning and Secunda is waxing, the Alfiq-raht is born.

When Masser is waning and Secunda is new, the Dagi is born.

When Masser and Secunda are waning, the Dagi-raht is born.

When Masser and Secunda are full, the Senche is born. The Senche is very large, but similar to the Pahmar-raht. They stand as tall as an Altmer, and can weigh as much as twenty Altmer. Other Khajiit ride them.

When Masser is full and Secunda is waxing, the Senche-raht is born. The Senche-raht is much larger and slower than the Senche. Their legs are straighter and their body is not as long. They stand as tall as two Altmer and can weigh more than fifty Altmer. These are also ridden, especially in battle. Imperials call them "Battlecats," but again, Jobasha does not suggest calling a Senche-raht a "Battlecat."

When Masser is full and Secunda is new, the Pahmar is born. They are like what you would call a "tiger."

When Masser is full and Secunda is waning, the Pahmar-raht is born. They are like the Pahmar, but larger and more dangerous.

The Wiki on Senche says they stand as tall as an altmer when they stand on their hind legs, the interview just says they stand as tall as an altmer but weigh as much as 20. The Senche-raht of course still size of two altmer but weighing as much as 50 of them.

Towards the end, it is actually the Pahmar that are described as what is typically called a tiger.

The way it reads to me, the Pahmar are about the size of a tiger, the Senche is about the size of a horse, and the Senche-raht being about the size of what we see in the mammoths, though less bulky. The size in the picture from @Gidorick‌ seems right on par.

I actually would like seeing a return of the Suthay/Suthay-raht as maybe a playable class or maybe a style selectable from the char creator in the body area. I wouldn't expect it anytime soon of course, but would be cool.

Shunravi

i always like refering to this pic

Robo_Hobo

Shunravi wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

elden hollow eh? Anyone have an in game picture of this?

Gona get one when I'm back in game. If you go to the bone orchard, there is an example of one that was scaled down as well. It's the one in the excavated pit that dringoth talks to during the quest. That one used to be much bigger. You can also find some arround bosmer settlements.

The one that Dringoth talks to, and the giant one in the perimeter of the surface area of that quest, are actually explained, or more-accurately 'thinly hinted' about, as to what they are during the quest. The interpretation I had was that they weren't any form of Khajiit - but something a lot more ancient, and ties into the 'regret' that Dringoth has.

As for any other giant skulls that aren't in that specific quest area spot, maybe they could be Khajiit.

Shunravi

Robo_Hobo wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

elden hollow eh? Anyone have an in game picture of this?

Gona get one when I'm back in game. If you go to the bone orchard, there is an example of one that was scaled down as well. It's the one in the excavated pit that dringoth talks to during the quest. That one used to be much bigger. You can also find some arround bosmer settlements.

The one that Dringoth talks to, and the giant one in the perimeter of the surface area of that quest, are actually explained, or more-accurately 'thinly hinted' about, as to what they are during the quest. The interpretation I had was that they weren't any form of Khajiit - but something a lot more ancient, and ties into the 'regret' that Dringoth has.

As for any other giant skulls that aren't in that specific quest area spot, maybe they could be Khajiit.

Very true. It was really just the cat-like form of the bones I was referring to.

Also, according to 'Last of the Old Bones' dringoth and his family are not the only ones interred at the barrowbough. Dringoth is described as 'a great beast made entirely of bones'. We're those his bones, or somehow a collection of bones from other creatures.

But what I was talking about is more along the lines of the shape of the skulls themselves. And that ZOS seems to be rescaling them...

Dringoth and his kind are certainly something else, exactly what, is something I would be interested in discussing. Is dringoth an entity made entirely of cat skulls? The book does say that parts of him are recovered throughout valenwood...

But along the lines of the OP, I prefer to think that these cat skulls are in fact from khajiit. At the very least it allows me to cling to a sliver of hope.

Gidorick

So, when I was writing up the Khajiit concept, I read that the Senche-Raht were twice the size of Altmer and that they were used as mounts. So I got it in my head that they were about the size of a large horse.

Considering "Interview With Three Booksellers", It seems they are quite a bit larger than that.

"They stand as tall as two Altmer and can weigh more than fifty Altmer."
http://www.imperial-library.info/content/interviews-3-booksellers
So they appear to be closer to the size of mammoths than horses.

Looking at the skulls in the bone yard it seems more definitive. There are some large skulls that would have to be from a beast quite a bit larger than a horse. Then there is the a couple MASSIVE cat-like skull.

But then... The skulls speak, something Senche-Raht don't do. Maybe dead Senche-Rahts can. I don't know the "rules" with the dead.

I did, however, get the feeling that Goradir and Olphras (two of the large skulls) were Ehlnofey. Those are kind of like the titans of elder-scrolls. Creatures pre-Aedra.

ANYway... even if those two aren't Senche-Rhat I think the lore pretty much speaks to the Senche-Rhat being HUGE. Since that's the case they aren't really suited for mounts. Perhaps they could be used in set pieces and quests but not for open-world use.

Thanks for the fun @Shunravi I enjoyed looking all this up!

Throren

Ya, it is mainly Senche used as mounts as regular Senche are closer to horse size. It never mentions them standing on their hind legs and more or less every time the height of a guadraped animal is mentioned it almost always refers to their height at the shoulder (which is the highest point on their body).

Imagine a fully armoured elephent sized Senche-raht though charging a line of enemies. Scary *** man

Shunravi

Throren wrote: »

Ya, it is mainly Senche used as mounts as regular Senche are closer to horse size. It never mentions them standing on their hind legs and more or less every time the height of a guadraped animal is mentioned it almost always refers to their height at the shoulder (which is the highest point on their body).

Imagine a fully armoured elephent sized Senche-raht though charging a line of enemies. Scary *** man

In war, it is imperative to sieze every advantage available. In a world where mammoths, wamasu, dunerippers, giant scorpions, and Senche exist, it is actually bizzare that we currently don't make use of their size and other advantages in cyrodill. When Hanibal attacked the Roman empire, he used elephants. The Indian culture traditionally uses elephants as mounts. Why can't we at least have mammoths? I mean, come on. There is an irl precident.

Shunravi clung desperately to Hassara's war-harness. The Senche-Rhat's powerful strides devoured long stretches of land as they charged towards the enemy line. The roar of battle was deafening even from the confines of the small valley they were approaching through.

A cloud of dust and sand obscured the battlefield as they rounded the last bend. They were just in time to see the ground rupture beneath Tshara and Heshi. A great Duneripper burst forth, impacing Heshi's abdomen and sending the two of them flying back. Heshi was clawing desperately at the beast that had snapped through the bracing on his war harness and burried itself in his underbelly.

Hassara roared and surged forward, catching the duneripper in its side and pulling it away from the wounded Senche-Rhat. The enchanted harness that protected the rider while the duneripper is tunneling was ripped to shreds by Heshi's massive claws. A sudden burst of heat and flame made it clear that it's occupant had not expired yet. In a rage, Hassara viciously bit down on the beasts back, killing the mage.

A strong scent of singed fur filled the air as Hassara padded out the last few embers from where they sttill burned. Tshara was desperately weaving healing magics into Heshi's gaping wound. A sound from the distance prevented Shunravi from assisting. A group of mammoth riders had noticed the wounded Khajiit, and were preparing their mounts for a charge.

...

Gidorick

Faction specific War Mounts for keep sieges.....

Aldmeri Dominion: Senche-Raht
Ebonheart Pact: Mammoths
Daggerfall Covenant: Dwemer Ballista Centurion (a large 4 legged construct)

This would be AWESOME! O.O

Heishi

Gidorick wrote: »

Faction specific War Mounts for keep sieges.....

Aldmeri Dominion: Senche-Raht
Ebonheart Pact: Mammoths
Daggerfall Covenant: Dwemer Ballista Centurion (a large 4 legged construct)

This would be AWESOME! O.O

It did make me laugh a bit that in the crown store, the first non-horse mount they did was a guar mount which I haven't heard hardly anyone ask for as opposed to the Senche mounts many people have been begging for.

I suppose like the thieves guild and dark brotherhood, they're going to hold onto that one until they need the money.

Gidorick

Heishi wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Faction specific War Mounts for keep sieges.....

Aldmeri Dominion: Senche-Raht
Ebonheart Pact: Mammoths
Daggerfall Covenant: Dwemer Ballista Centurion (a large 4 legged construct)

This would be AWESOME! O.O

It did make me laugh a bit that in the crown store, the first non-horse mount they did was a guar mount which I haven't heard hardly anyone ask for as opposed to the Senche mounts many people have been begging for.

I suppose like the thieves guild and dark brotherhood, they're going to hold onto that one until they need the money.

The Guar mount was on the docket to be released since at least May 2014

Soulshine

I was super psyched to play a Khajiit when I first heard about ESO being created, since I have always loved the Khajiit and made several in all my TES games. Then I came to beta and... ahem... just no. Your ideas are all awesome and even if 1/3 of them got into the game, "theesss one" would indeed be a happy kitty. Thank you for making the thread.... Prrrrrr.