Laughing at Sorcerers who use ultimate ablities

Dirty_Digs

Ok, before I start I would like to state that I have found my own way to become an absolute vicious sorcerer who gives way to no one, even against players on there own buff servers(don't even get me started on that stupid mechanic, PVP servers providing PVE buffs? Why and why and why is that still a thing?). But I have absolutely no fear or respect for any enemy sorc I encounter. All they do is streak away or die. When the use there ultimates on me, I laugh at them and slaughter them for it.

First, the overload ability can be reflected right back in your face. After getting killed by your own ultimate a few times its obvious there is nothing "ultimate" about it. When a sorc pops on the overload, we laugh and have our DK's reflect it back in their face. There is no other class ultimate that will get you killed just by firing it off, enough said.

The only way to fix overload is to make it immune to reflect like all other ultimates except the meteor, which is underused because of the same principle.

Second, the negate is about as useful against enemies as the battered bear trap trophy. It takes way to long to charge, and has NO NOTICEABLE EFFECT AGAINST PLAYERS. All it does is stun them once if they cast a spell, and doesn't protect you at all from outside spells. Granted it's about the best one around for NPC's, but the simple fact that negate effects NPC's in a different fashion than players is just odd. Negates take forever to cast. Try dueling a DK with a negate, they'll just stand there reflecting everything you try and use, dropping 3 or 4 standards per your 1 negate, they have stupid regen and healing so its not like you can outlast them by casting curse or some other weak spell. If that DK uses twin sisters, then there is NOTHING you can do to kill it AT ALL. Everything you try will either kill you or charge their ultimate. I have never seen a sorc throw up a negate and clean house, yet I see every other class ultimate become the end of entire mobs. If you disagree then I ask if you would trade your standard, or veil, or nova for negate. Plus, sorcs are meant to do damage, not weak defense spells.

How come the other ultimates have multiple effects or massive damage or powerful synergies or added healing for them and less healing for enemies, while the negate has no added effects at all or any added synergy. Is there any reason that negates do not stun players like npc's? Lets compare negate to batswarm, shall we? A vamp on the brink of death can cast batswarm and kill you while healing back up to full almost instantly, even with the latest nerf. A sorc on the brink of death can throw a negate and die, while the negate cast does 0 damage or lasting effects. If a sorc cast a negate on me, even though I'm a sorc I start laughing, jump INTO THE NEGATE FIELD AND TEAR THEM TO SHREDS with absolutely no negative effects. Right now, negates are mainly used as a mass NPC stun, not to negate spells.

Negates either need to stun players it hits and shield the players inside from ALL spells, inside the field and out. Or the negate field could have a morph that allows it to follow the caster around. It still won;t even hurt anyone, just take away there magic. Since sorcs are supposed the be the best users of magic, this seems pretty simple to me. Take away the stun on NPC's for all I care, or have them get up if the field leaves them. Either that or drop the cost down to a level on par with DK standards, who by nature charge ultimates way to fast in my opinion. If all my negate can do if negate enemy ultimates, then it would make sense that I can charge it fast enough to actually do it. If I can only negate 1 out of every 3 or 4 they thow then its not helping. It needs to be ready for almost every enemy ultimate cast or it's a huge negative for the negate.

That brings us to the storm atronach. This once can be a great ability, but it has way too many weaknesses. This one makes me laugh the hardest when used wrong. When that big ole' atronach comes my way, I simply hit it with a rune cage which disables the thing for the whole duration of the ability. That alone should set off a few alarms to how weak it is, but to make matters worse, I can kill an atronach in like 3 seconds or less anyway. And the synergy, man is that worthless, it will actually get you killed for using it and I wish it wasn't even there to get in the way of "real" synergies that actually help. The next time the "charge" sits there and blocks a desperately needed "purge", I'm gonna punch the atronach responsible,lol. The damage done by the atronach synergy is so low that any level lvl 20 player can out dps it with light attacks from a bow. So why is it even there? If I'm wrong about this synergy please let me know, because as of tight now, everyone I play with hates it.

For atronachs, I think it would be cool if there were more morphs, Like a choice of which kind of atronach to use. Maybe a weapon damage flesh atronach as a choice, maybe an air atronach. Either that or give them a synergy that is worth pressing "x" for. How about a synergy that calls a flame atronach as well or something that might actually kill something. Not to much to ask considering all the other untlimates will wipe whole groups if synergized. Another option is to allow the atronach to stay around until killed or the player leaves the certain radius, which would require the first atronach to disappear. Maybe while synergized the Atronach won't fall apart, but for beefs sake give it something that makes it stonger than the freaking mudcrabs. No joke, mudcrabs will kill you faster than a atronach will.

When I see a DK cast a standard or a Templar cast a nova, I jump in, hit x and kill anything in range, regardless of how many.Very rare is the instance where someone has seen my atronach and been like, "oh yeah, these guys are about the get crushed", then jump in and finish them all off because stormy had them on the ropes.

So in recap, if your a sorc and you use your ultimate, other players will laugh at you and destroy you for it, they might even tea bag your dead atronach while they are at it. Since all the other classes excel at they're roles, dps, tank, or heal, we should add a fourth for sorcs and called "meat shield" or" cannon fodder" or maybe even "enemy ultimate charging punching bag". That way everyone know what to expect out of sorcerers.

One last thing, if you are a sorc, put away any sorc ability you have that is meant to do damage. Use weapon ablities instead, they are much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much stronger. Actually, just use a bow and forget you even had dps magic in the first place, or even better, start a new character, pick dragonknight and go around eating sorcs for breakfast.

badmojo

Dirty_Digs wrote: »

Ok, before I start I would like to state that I have found my own way to become an absolute vicious sorcerer who gives way to no one, even against players on there own buff servers(don't even get me started on that stupid mechanic, PVP servers providing PVE buffs? Why and why and why is that still a thing?).

It gives worth to all the campaigns, instead of focusing on just the popular one. At least now they changed it so when I guest in Thornblade, my Chillrend buffs don't apply, but even that was just to please people like you, to me it makes more sense to force the masses onto our smaller campaigns to stomp out the buffs that we were carrying over to help in the full campaigns.

The ideal thing to do would be to create a system where all the campaigns would factor into the buffs. That way nobody would (probably) ever have full buffs, and people would be encouraged to help in other campaigns when theirs is conquered.

Also, lol at the bragging about killing people with buffs. It's not like the buffs are going to change the outcome a battle that much. Go kill an emperor on their own campaign, by yourself, then I will be impressed.

murtugo

"Agree"

The saddest part is that my main is a sorc.

Sorc's ultis are laughable in PVP... but in my opinion they are very useful in PVE.

xMovingTarget

I dont like the Atronach. Its huge, blocks view and has an atrocious bad synergy nobody likes to use. I hate em with a passion!

I am no Sorc though.

Wreuntzylla

I am not sure I am following. Is this actually another nerf DK thread?

ExiledKhallisi

I main a sorc....and IMO...any class....ANY..who rely on ultimate to get kills is garbage in PvP.

I think you are wrong about negate though.

The only true garbage mechanic in this game is reflect. Its a skilless overpowered cheese move that needs to be nerfed.

poodlemasterb16_ESO

Dirty_Digs wrote: »

Ok, before I start I would like to state that I have found my own way to become an absolute vicious sorcerer who gives way to no one, even against players on there own buff servers(don't even get me started on that stupid mechanic, PVP servers providing PVE buffs? Why and why and why is that still a thing?). But I have absolutely no fear or respect for any enemy sorc I encounter. All they do is streak away or die. When the use there ultimates on me, I laugh at them and slaughter them for it.

First, the overload ability can be reflected right back in your face. After getting killed by your own ultimate a few times its obvious there is nothing "ultimate" about it. When a sorc pops on the overload, we laugh and have our DK's reflect it back in their face. There is no other class ultimate that will get you killed just by firing it off, enough said.

The only way to fix overload is to make it immune to reflect like all other ultimates except the meteor, which is underused because of the same principle.

Second, the negate is about as useful against enemies as the battered bear trap trophy. It takes way to long to charge, and has NO NOTICEABLE EFFECT AGAINST PLAYERS. All it does is stun them once if they cast a spell, and doesn't protect you at all from outside spells. Granted it's about the best one around for NPC's, but the simple fact that negate effects NPC's in a different fashion than players is just odd. Negates take forever to cast. Try dueling a DK with a negate, they'll just stand there reflecting everything you try and use, dropping 3 or 4 standards per your 1 negate, they have stupid regen and healing so its not like you can outlast them by casting curse or some other weak spell. If that DK uses twin sisters, then there is NOTHING you can do to kill it AT ALL. Everything you try will either kill you or charge their ultimate. I have never seen a sorc throw up a negate and clean house, yet I see every other class ultimate become the end of entire mobs. If you disagree then I ask if you would trade your standard, or veil, or nova for negate. Plus, sorcs are meant to do damage, not weak defense spells.

How come the other ultimates have multiple effects or massive damage or powerful synergies or added healing for them and less healing for enemies, while the negate has no added effects at all or any added synergy. Is there any reason that negates do not stun players like npc's? Lets compare negate to batswarm, shall we? A vamp on the brink of death can cast batswarm and kill you while healing back up to full almost instantly, even with the latest nerf. A sorc on the brink of death can throw a negate and die, while the negate cast does 0 damage or lasting effects. If a sorc cast a negate on me, even though I'm a sorc I start laughing, jump INTO THE NEGATE FIELD AND TEAR THEM TO SHREDS with absolutely no negative effects. Right now, negates are mainly used as a mass NPC stun, not to negate spells.

Negates either need to stun players it hits and shield the players inside from ALL spells, inside the field and out. Or the negate field could have a morph that allows it to follow the caster around. It still won;t even hurt anyone, just take away there magic. Since sorcs are supposed the be the best users of magic, this seems pretty simple to me. Take away the stun on NPC's for all I care, or have them get up if the field leaves them. Either that or drop the cost down to a level on par with DK standards, who by nature charge ultimates way to fast in my opinion. If all my negate can do if negate enemy ultimates, then it would make sense that I can charge it fast enough to actually do it. If I can only negate 1 out of every 3 or 4 they thow then its not helping. It needs to be ready for almost every enemy ultimate cast or it's a huge negative for the negate.

That brings us to the storm atronach. This once can be a great ability, but it has way too many weaknesses. This one makes me laugh the hardest when used wrong. When that big ole' atronach comes my way, I simply hit it with a rune cage which disables the thing for the whole duration of the ability. That alone should set off a few alarms to how weak it is, but to make matters worse, I can kill an atronach in like 3 seconds or less anyway. And the synergy, man is that worthless, it will actually get you killed for using it and I wish it wasn't even there to get in the way of "real" synergies that actually help. The next time the "charge" sits there and blocks a desperately needed "purge", I'm gonna punch the atronach responsible,lol. The damage done by the atronach synergy is so low that any level lvl 20 player can out dps it with light attacks from a bow. So why is it even there? If I'm wrong about this synergy please let me know, because as of tight now, everyone I play with hates it.

For atronachs, I think it would be cool if there were more morphs, Like a choice of which kind of atronach to use. Maybe a weapon damage flesh atronach as a choice, maybe an air atronach. Either that or give them a synergy that is worth pressing "x" for. How about a synergy that calls a flame atronach as well or something that might actually kill something. Not to much to ask considering all the other untlimates will wipe whole groups if synergized. Another option is to allow the atronach to stay around until killed or the player leaves the certain radius, which would require the first atronach to disappear. Maybe while synergized the Atronach won't fall apart, but for beefs sake give it something that makes it stonger than the freaking mudcrabs. No joke, mudcrabs will kill you faster than a atronach will.

When I see a DK cast a standard or a Templar cast a nova, I jump in, hit x and kill anything in range, regardless of how many.Very rare is the instance where someone has seen my atronach and been like, "oh yeah, these guys are about the get crushed", then jump in and finish them all off because stormy had them on the ropes.

So in recap, if your a sorc and you use your ultimate, other players will laugh at you and destroy you for it, they might even tea bag your dead atronach while they are at it. Since all the other classes excel at they're roles, dps, tank, or heal, we should add a fourth for sorcs and called "meat shield" or" cannon fodder" or maybe even "enemy ultimate charging punching bag". That way everyone know what to expect out of sorcerers.

One last thing, if you are a sorc, put away any sorc ability you have that is meant to do damage. Use weapon ablities instead, they are much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much stronger. Actually, just use a bow and forget you even had dps magic in the first place, or even better, start a new character, pick dragonknight and go around eating sorcs for breakfast.

True enough. I have not used a sorc Ult in ages. Bats do the trick for me which is mostly to deal with situations leaving control.

Sorc skills too are meh. Destro Staff is the way to go for damage, in my case anyway. A big surged, critted axe works well too but mainly for jollies. I can get real silly and run both a Boom Pet and Volcanic Rune, but it's really just for laughs. The comedy bar, if you will.

Xsorus

A post about how negate is weak.... Rofl...

xaraan

I agree that overload is kind of meh and atronach could use some work, but negate is pretty damn good, especially in PvP. Nothing ruins your ultimate like having a negate dropped on it.

Orchish

Negate is pretty damn good in PvP when you are fighting against trains.

hammer_fella

murtugo wrote: »

"Agree"

The saddest part is that my main is a sorc.

Sorc's ultis are laughable in PVP... but in my opinion they are very useful in PVE.

Pretty much. Negate and Atro are fantastic PvE skills, whether in a group or solo (although I can't say I've figured out any practical application for Overload). But in PvP... not so much.

Dropping Negate on a flag might save a keep if you're not up against overwhelming numbers and still have NPCs to help, but otherwise the Sorc ultis don't work anywhere near as well in PvP as other class ultis. But I think we've all come to learn by this point that combat in PvP was never really given proper consideration, the existing system was just exported to Cyrodiil with the hopes/expectations it would work or could be balanced later.

Gillysan

There is some truth to what you post but also some misunderstanding. There is more than one way to build your character and this post only goes to highlight what I have been saying forever: don't just pve with the same skills on your hotbar, change them out and level up other skills, even if that means respec to free some points up.

What you have found is that there are other ways to build your character and weapon skills are overlooked. Like the NB's that only make a sneaky Stamina bow build. Some of the best skills are in the two-hander, these are deadly.

The other is Ultimates, especially in pvp, they can be highly situational. You rely on them to save your butt in all situations and they will just get you killed. You have to know when to pop them.

Finally, the skills in the game in general need work. Some skills simply fail to work at all, sometimes fail, or don't work to well. It has been a challenge to figure and test them out with the crappy UI. Balancing skills is more than just moving the slider on how much damage they do, there is the whole integration of game mechanics and counters that needs to be considered. It will be some time before ZOS can get a real good handle on balance. If you ask me it's about a 2 year project. The people always screaming for changes "fix this now, game breaking!" are extremely naive and maybe just plain stupid.

The players need to continuously experiment. ZOS needs to give us better tools. Next up, fix this crappy UI and give us dueling and target dummies.

david.haypreub18_ESO

I'm surprised someone would really try to argue that Templars have better ultimates than Sorcerors. I don't doubt that Sorcerors have their issues, but ultimates aren't one of them, at least in comparison to Templars.

I play both classes, and I would gladly trade all my Templar ultimates for either Negate or Atronach.

Nova, seriously? Just roll out of it. It's not like the Templar has any AoE root like Talons to keep you in it. Just roll out.

Sounds like the real problem is (as always) Reflective Scales. On that, I agree: it just reflects too many things. But Templar ultimates are widely regarded as the worst for a reason.

Orchish

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

I main a sorc....and IMO...any class....ANY..who rely on ultimate to get kills is garbage in PvP.

I think you are wrong about negate though.

The only true garbage mechanic in this game is reflect. Its a skilless overpowered cheese move that needs to be nerfed.

What and spamming lethal arrow,curse and crystal fragments does?

aco5712

did he just say negate is crap and isnt worth it? You ever had 6 ulti's dropped on your ass only for your sorc in group to negate them all and then you get to watch the enemy melt?

Xsorus

aco5712 wrote: »

did he just say negate is crap and isnt worth it? You ever had 6 ulti's dropped on your ass only for your sorc in group to negate them all and then you get to watch the enemy melt?

Of course not, that would require him to have actually pvped at least once on his sorc in a group.

Qyrk

I don't understand.....using negate on enemy ultimates CAN turn a wipe to a save on your group, therefore it is a useful utility and defense ultimate.

tplink3r1

Nova? i think i never killed someone with that, lol, people just roll out of it.

superfluke

I have found my own way to become an absolute vicious sorcerer who gives way to no one

When a sorc pops on the overload, we laugh and have our DK's reflect it back in their face.

Sorry brah stopped reading right there but im sure you had some insight further on.

Draxys

I only read half of this but, since I get the gist of "sorc ults are useless", I'll add this: We typically like to have 3-4 sorcs in our group, all of whom run Negate. One uses it at the start of the fight if necessary, and the others wait until they are called for. A reactionary Negate is far better than a planned one, as it can be used when enemies have already used resources fighting us, and thus forces them to use more stamina to stay alive (of which they've probably already used quite a bit through immovable and possibly break free). They are extremely effective when fighting has already been happening and can shut down a group that has already been using stamina to keep immovable up, and typically those groups are close together so that it hits most of them. Also, if you're in a friendly Negate when cast, it gives you back resources.

TheLaw

When you discredited negate, you lost all credibility. Sure, solo it's not that useful. With an organized group, you can easily wipe masses with single well placed negate.

Natjur

In PVP when you see a player with no weapon, you know its a sorc with overcharge, and switch to Absorbs Magic and wait to they are using a weapon again.

But Negate Magic is still very powerful.

Attorneyatlawl

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

aco5712 wrote: »

did he just say negate is crap and isnt worth it? You ever had 6 ulti's dropped on your ass only for your sorc in group to negate them all and then you get to watch the enemy melt?

Of course not, that would require him to have actually pvped at least once on his sorc in a group.

I'm not sure what's more hilarious, the op saying spec ultimates stink or that people agreed..... negate is arguably easily the best ultimate in the game. Charged Storm Atronarch is great in chokes when you drop it during a rush and throw on the 33% damage buff shield on it plus some aloe like root, liquid lightning, elemental ring, or numerous others.

Xsorus

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

aco5712 wrote: »

did he just say negate is crap and isnt worth it? You ever had 6 ulti's dropped on your ass only for your sorc in group to negate them all and then you get to watch the enemy melt?

Of course not, that would require him to have actually pvped at least once on his sorc in a group.

I'm not sure what's more hilarious, the op saying spec ultimates stink or that people agreed..... negate is arguably easily the best ultimate in the game. Charged Storm Atronarch is great in chokes when you drop it during a rush and throw on the 33% damage buff shield on it plus some aloe like root, liquid lightning, elemental ring, or numerous others.

No what is hilarious is him whining constantly about standard while saying the ultimate that completely negates standard is crap

Black_Wolf88

im a sorc and I totally agree with OP. sorc ultimates is way too weak in pvp.
dawnbreaker is the ultimate to use for sorcs ( which is ofc only used as a passive ability) along with crushing shock.

eliisra

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

I'm not sure what's more hilarious, the op saying spec ultimates stink or that people agreed..... negate is arguably easily the best ultimate in the game.

It's the most powerful ultimate in PvP for sure. It cancels all enemy ultis in the area and shuts down players. Only skill that actually wipes entire raids these days. Play templar and save up 288 ulti for Nova, watch it disappear instantly, when one sorc uses a way cheaper Negate. It's slightly demoralizing lol.

Guessing people think it's stinks because it's not doing any actual damage or not effective 1v1. Only dps ultis can be good?

It's however awfully boring being the designated Negate-servant in every single PvP fight. I have a sorc to: "IS NEGATE READY YET?!". Yeah, it gets old. Using a debuff/support skill that allows your allies to kill the enemy, is not as fun as actually killing them yourself.

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO

Problem here is that the OP think that 1 vs 1 power has any relevance in AvAvA....

What matters is how well your tools enable your side to win battles. Individual Epeen is utterly irrelevant and show a strange dependency on having your personal worth be based on your individual skill in a game.

When you regard battle tools then no ultimate come second to negate. Nothing else come close to break bottleneck situations or destroy impulse groups.

Remember you worth as a person and player is how valuable you are to other people around you, not how useable you are to yourself alone.

hammer_fella

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

Problem here is that the OP think that 1 vs 1 power has any relevance in AvAvA....

It doesn't?

Maybe my ego is a bit inflated (NB syndrome), but I don't care how useful I am to the team if I can't occasionally wreck shop solo. OP is complaining that 1v1 his class lacks an ultimate on par with others. Saying Negate is useless is clearly overstating things, but I can't really argue that other classes have better ultimates 1v1.

Sleep

I think the real problem with Storm Atronach is that unlike other ultimates, it's not dealing damage every second. Though it last longer, after a Zap or AoE it takes a short break. And it can be interrupted/stunned/knockdown/killed. And I noticed that sometimes it just stood still watching enemies passing by, unless I marked a target for it. And the synergy, despite the fact that it significantly increases its damage, it requires channeling which most players dislike.
Negate is good, especially in CTF.

Valymer

Soul Assault is what I run on my main bar in Cyrodiil, as a sorc. But admittedly I do my best to stay away from fights larger than about 10v10 due to the lag that always erupts, and many of these are open-field battles where Negate is pretty worthless because everyone is spread out.

Dirty_Digs

Thanks for all the feedback guys. As I expected, there were several points of view and some good points have been made.

I would like to reinforce a few things though.

1.Overload should not be reflectable, maybe easier to block but I will not use an ulimate that will kill me instead of the enemy, its just dumb unless others like a nova or a standard can be reflected too. I bet that every DK on the planet would cry to eternity if there standard fell on them and did them damage and not the enemy. Yeah, overload is toggle ability so the mechanics don;t match exactly, but its still a valid point.

2. Atronachs are too easy to kill, stun, etc. If I could throw a rune cage around nova or kill standard then this would be an even field. Make atronachs unstunnable and last the whole duration, or make then last until they are killed or the player leaves the area or something. The other night a sorc threw his artonach at me, I threw a rune cage at it and started eating chicken leg next to it while my buddies slaughtered him, laughing just like I said I do in the title of this post.

3. Negate fields need a synergy, or need to stun players, or have a synergy that stuns players. If simply hoping to negate an enemy ultimate is all it's good for then its poorly underpowered. Even if you do negate, you still most likely took a heavy shot from the initial drop. So both players are short ulties but the sorc is the only once who took damage, maybe with some dot or dubuffs to go with it. The arguement that my negate has a slight chance to be timed perfect and might nullify other ulities is not a very strong one, in my opinion.

All the sorcerer abilites can be utilized, I'm arguing that sorcerer abilities can be used against them, to easy to nullify without using other ultimates and require too much care and skill to use properly. I know that sounds stupid, but its a relative comparison so don't take it out of context.

If you disagree. please point out the obvious weakness to the other class ultimates, compare them, and make a point. Please do not rant garbage insults that really make no sense in the argument, or make random assumptions about me or other people in the post, those people are just wrong and I don't really care about what they say so don't waste our forum space please.