Remove SneakDMG from Bows
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Domander✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tonight I tried to gank a dk..... he healed himself... so instead of running away which I normally do, I tried to just unload on him. He sat there taking all the damage I could give... popping cloak for increase in crit... everything. He took it all till literally I ran out of stamina and magic and gave up. He then started dancing and claping and laughing, mounted up and left. I wasn't even worth killing. So sad. He was vr14 same as me. I'm in all legendary archers and hundlings. Wep dmg to neck and rings. Still couldn't hurt him. So nerf bows? Maybe. Nerf dks..... definetly. At least make it competitive for all where every class can 1v1 anyone with outcomes even not just always onesided.
so..... you're burning magicka popping cloak and burning resources on someone who is obviously blocking attacks (otherwise they'd be dead very fast).
You're doing it wrong.
Any class could tank you like this, you could tank someone like this with the right setup.
Nightblades have a couple of great skills to fight tank type blocking. Fear and shades, you have to run them out of stamina if you want to start doing good damage.
Ganking isn't always going to work. If you're only set up to gank.. don't complain when it fails and you lose.Edited by Domander on October 19, 2014 10:32AM1 -
Domander✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'll agree that it doesn't completely make sense to me, if a bow can sneak attack I would think any weapon/ability could sneak attack, but that's not how it is...Edited by Domander on October 19, 2014 10:38AM0 -
Soris✭✭✭✭✭
✭xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »
it does
Also for the record...you can hit for 2k with Lethal Arrow..But it pretty much requires Archer Mind gear, max stamina,max weapon damage and a Nightblade to do it..so its very squishy high burst build. Basically if the NB doesn't kill ya in the opening, He'll die if you get on him
I was hit for 2070 in pvp Friday night . I have 2k armor... On the test server its hitting much harder now.. You cant have archers doing this much damage and two handers no where close to this....
We are doing min maxing tests on the server tonight in pvp.. being that bow can min/max very easily in this game and be viable... On mobs last night damage was crazy...killing a boss mamoth before it can get to you..
Currently there are already a ton of bow users in PVP.. Being melee myself i find myself getting hit with multiple archers in almost every fight.. Im finding myself always with out endo because of arrows sapping all my endo... Its gotten really bad since the last patch...Bow needs no buff at all in fact it needs reduction... Insta kills or fights with no ability to fight back 1v1 are bad for pvp...
7
Snipe is hitting for 5% less damage on PTS right now... Its not going to hit for more.
Funny to hear it gonna hit %5 less.
So 2000dmg - %5 = 1900dmg yeah? Lol.
Welkynd [Templar/AD/EU]1 -
Domander✭✭✭✭✭
✭xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »
it does
Also for the record...you can hit for 2k with Lethal Arrow..But it pretty much requires Archer Mind gear, max stamina,max weapon damage and a Nightblade to do it..so its very squishy high burst build. Basically if the NB doesn't kill ya in the opening, He'll die if you get on him
I was hit for 2070 in pvp Friday night . I have 2k armor... On the test server its hitting much harder now.. You cant have archers doing this much damage and two handers no where close to this....
We are doing min maxing tests on the server tonight in pvp.. being that bow can min/max very easily in this game and be viable... On mobs last night damage was crazy...killing a boss mamoth before it can get to you..
Currently there are already a ton of bow users in PVP.. Being melee myself i find myself getting hit with multiple archers in almost every fight.. Im finding myself always with out endo because of arrows sapping all my endo... Its gotten really bad since the last patch...Bow needs no buff at all in fact it needs reduction... Insta kills or fights with no ability to fight back 1v1 are bad for pvp...
7
Snipe is hitting for 5% less damage on PTS right now... Its not going to hit for more.
Funny to hear it gonna hit %5 less.
So 2000dmg - %5 = 1900dmg yeah? Lol.
Everyone is forgetting the 40% less cast time... which equals way more dps.
cast time is 1.1 seconds now.
oh
and no more minimum range....
both great changes imo, and 5% damage reduction is nothing compared to the epic buff.
Edited by Domander on October 19, 2014 10:29PM1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »
it does
Also for the record...you can hit for 2k with Lethal Arrow..But it pretty much requires Archer Mind gear, max stamina,max weapon damage and a Nightblade to do it..so its very squishy high burst build. Basically if the NB doesn't kill ya in the opening, He'll die if you get on him
I was hit for 2070 in pvp Friday night . I have 2k armor... On the test server its hitting much harder now.. You cant have archers doing this much damage and two handers no where close to this....
We are doing min maxing tests on the server tonight in pvp.. being that bow can min/max very easily in this game and be viable... On mobs last night damage was crazy...killing a boss mamoth before it can get to you..
Currently there are already a ton of bow users in PVP.. Being melee myself i find myself getting hit with multiple archers in almost every fight.. Im finding myself always with out endo because of arrows sapping all my endo... Its gotten really bad since the last patch...Bow needs no buff at all in fact it needs reduction... Insta kills or fights with no ability to fight back 1v1 are bad for pvp...
7
Snipe is hitting for 5% less damage on PTS right now... Its not going to hit for more.
Funny to hear it gonna hit %5 less.
So 2000dmg - %5 = 1900dmg yeah? Lol.
Everyone is forgetting the 40% less cast time... which equals way more dps.
cast time is 1.1 seconds now.
oh
and no more minimum range....
both great changes imo, and 5% damage reduction is nothing compared to the epic buff.
Did you read the other posts in this thread?
The shorter cast time means shorter animation also. It's been tested by people on PTS, and it is no longer possible to get as big burst with bow as before, since you won't have enough time to queue up Heavy Attack+Venom Arrow/Poison Injection after the snipe (before it lands).
This means around 300-400 less burst dmg, when you don't have time to charge the heavy attack.
Add to that the 5% reduction on Snipe damage, and you have bow dealing 20-25%~ less burst damage.
The sustained DPS will increase with the cast time reduction however (as it should).Edited by DDuke on October 20, 2014 12:26AM0 -
jelliedsoup✭✭✭✭✭Stop whinging about it you dress wearing panzies, put some heavy armour on with impen and laugh at archers while you are PvP'ing.
Dk's with reflective will also be laughing as they currently are.
see wings flapping, count to 4, snipe, see wings flap again, then you must wait again.
If banner ain't up, use stampede (2h), go out, come in....arrows etc.
www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=Ks8_KGHqmO40 -
Domander✭✭✭✭✭
✭xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »
it does
Also for the record...you can hit for 2k with Lethal Arrow..But it pretty much requires Archer Mind gear, max stamina,max weapon damage and a Nightblade to do it..so its very squishy high burst build. Basically if the NB doesn't kill ya in the opening, He'll die if you get on him
I was hit for 2070 in pvp Friday night . I have 2k armor... On the test server its hitting much harder now.. You cant have archers doing this much damage and two handers no where close to this....
We are doing min maxing tests on the server tonight in pvp.. being that bow can min/max very easily in this game and be viable... On mobs last night damage was crazy...killing a boss mamoth before it can get to you..
Currently there are already a ton of bow users in PVP.. Being melee myself i find myself getting hit with multiple archers in almost every fight.. Im finding myself always with out endo because of arrows sapping all my endo... Its gotten really bad since the last patch...Bow needs no buff at all in fact it needs reduction... Insta kills or fights with no ability to fight back 1v1 are bad for pvp...
7
Snipe is hitting for 5% less damage on PTS right now... Its not going to hit for more.
Funny to hear it gonna hit %5 less.
So 2000dmg - %5 = 1900dmg yeah? Lol.
Everyone is forgetting the 40% less cast time... which equals way more dps.
cast time is 1.1 seconds now.
oh
and no more minimum range....
both great changes imo, and 5% damage reduction is nothing compared to the epic buff.
Did you read the other posts in this thread?
The shorter cast time means shorter animation also. It's been tested by people on PTS, and it is no longer possible to get as big burst with bow as before, since you won't have enough time to queue up Heavy Attack+Venom Arrow/Poison Injection after the snipe (before it lands).
This means around 300-400 less burst dmg, when you don't have time to charge the heavy attack.
Add to that the 5% reduction on Snipe damage, and you have bow dealing 20-25%~ less burst damage.
The sustained DPS will increase with the cast time reduction however (as it should).
So it'll be harder to instakill someone from range ......that is a lot different than overall damage.0 -
Kypho✭✭✭✭when will the -streak swarm streak aoe streak swarm streak aoe streak swarm- and this without streak fixed?0 -
suycyco✭✭✭jelliedsoup wrote: »Stop whinging about it you dress wearing panzies, put some heavy armour on with impen and laugh at archers while you are PvP'ing.
Dk's with reflective will also be laughing as they currently are.
see wings flapping, count to 4, snipe, see wings flap again, then you must wait again.
If banner ain't up, use stampede (2h), go out, come in....arrows etc.
What I try to do, but in general after stampede the schem is more "dark talon, roll, dark talon , roll , dark talon , no more stam to roll then dead "
I try to use the teleport shadow on my bow bar to escape but with the switching issues due to lag it ain't so easy.
The when wing flapp wait , make me always smile, yeah I wait, but meantine the DK is not waiting he is coming for me , or at least he's killing people and we can't do nothing to help.2 -
ThisOnePosts✭✭✭✭✭This is really sad and pathetic. Stam builds are underwhelming in many areas compared to magicka builds, but now that they are starting to balance you can tell the people who need to L2P by following the river of tears. FYI, I play magicka build on one char, hybrid on 2, and stam on the other. LEARN TO PLAY.
And yes, heavy armor SHOULD protect you better from physical attacks (which is what a bow is). Wow, what a crazy concept? Stronger metal protects better from arrows! All this time I thought cloth wrapped around my body were stronger than metal! Go FIGURE! (sarcasm, for those who don't figure that out). Make some armor enchantments if you refuse to put on some heavy pieces. OR, look through the many viable options to counter depending on class/weapons.
#l2pEdited by ThisOnePosts on October 20, 2014 1:41PM1 -
Kego✭✭✭✭
Against Bows, yes but not against Crossbows. They hit through your metal like it were cloth. Well same goes for japanese swords, that was that sharp that no armor could protect you, which is the reason why they only used leather armor, cause they need the freedom of leather to evade the enemy, instead of taking the hit.ViciousWayz wrote: »Wow, what a crazy concept? Stronger metal protects better from arrows!
What does that mean? Well Armor in TOS means nothing cause we all wield the best of the best weapons and use Magic as well.
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
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Against Bows, yes but not against Crossbows. They hit through your metal like it were cloth. Well same goes for japanese swords, that was that sharp that no armor could protect you, which is the reason why they only used leather armor, cause they need the freedom of leather to evade the enemy, instead of taking the hit.ViciousWayz wrote: »Wow, what a crazy concept? Stronger metal protects better from arrows!
What does that mean? Well Armor in TOS means nothing cause we all wield the best of the best weapons and use Magic as well.
On a side note, we do need Crossbows in this game.1 -
Heishi✭✭✭✭✭Ah this old conversation.
Bows get bonus damage for sneak because getting hit with an arrow while caught off guard will do more damage. Other ranged weapons (all staffs in ESO's case) are magical. Magic isn't going to impact harder or be better placed if you catch someone off guard with it.
For example: Shooting someone in the shoulder with and arrow because you are in combat isn't going to do as much damage to the person as if they were not aware and you laid a well placed arrow to the head/heart/ect.
A bolt of magic hitting a body is going to distribute out rather than hitting a pin point like an arrowhead
As a random point of interest:
Against Bows, yes but not against Crossbows. They hit through your metal like it were cloth. Well same goes for japanese swords, that was that sharp that no armor could protect you, which is the reason why they only used leather armor, cause they need the freedom of leather to evade the enemy, instead of taking the hit.ViciousWayz wrote: »Wow, what a crazy concept? Stronger metal protects better from arrows!
This is entirely false. There are many different types of bows for different purposes. Plenty of bows out perform crossbows, it's just a matter of which are compared. Crossbows became popular because of being quicker to reload (especially with the repeating crossbow). Distance is a great determining factor too.
I don't even know where the idea that japanese swords are so sharp that no armor will protect you came from. Someone watches too much anime. There are a plethora of scientific videos and demonstrations of armor stopping japanese swords.
Leather was primarily worn because of resource/cost issues. A lot of samurai armor is metal. Leath did gain popularity when they learned how to use scales (which there are videos of leather scale stopping katanas too).
If armor was so ineffectual, there would have been no reason to wear leather either. They didn't wear it because it looked cool. Granted the samurai oni mask were intended to cause fear.And so did many brave men, women, and beast fall to the end of Beta, never to be heard from again. All that is left, is whispers of the adventures they had.1 -
Durham✭✭✭✭✭
✭jelliedsoup wrote: »Stop whinging about it you dress wearing panzies, put some heavy armour on with impen and laugh at archers while you are PvP'ing.
Dk's with reflective will also be laughing as they currently are.
see wings flapping, count to 4, snipe, see wings flap again, then you must wait again.
If banner ain't up, use stampede (2h), go out, come in....arrows etc.
I have 2k armor and i was hit for 2070 you over estimate heavy.. There are archers behind every rock in pvp right now. I DO NOT LAUGH AT THEM.. If it was bad or needed buffs you would not see so many with it... Now there is a huge difference in the quality of archers i have to say that...PVP DEADWAIT
PVP The Unguildables2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭jelliedsoup wrote: »Stop whinging about it you dress wearing panzies, put some heavy armour on with impen and laugh at archers while you are PvP'ing.
Dk's with reflective will also be laughing as they currently are.
see wings flapping, count to 4, snipe, see wings flap again, then you must wait again.
If banner ain't up, use stampede (2h), go out, come in....arrows etc.
I have 2k armor and i was hit for 2070 you over estimate heavy.. There are archers behind every rock in pvp right now. I DO NOT LAUGH AT THEM.. If it was bad or needed buffs you would not see so many with it... Now there is a huge difference in the quality of archers i have to say that...
If you were hit for 2070, that means the archer was a Nightblade and placed a Mark on you before shooting. Mark reduces your (and the NB's) armour by 75%.
If it was multiple shots (Snipe+Heavy attack+Venom Arrow) that landed at the same time, then you'll be happy to hear it wont be possible anymore after the next patch and shorter Snipe animation.
People always find fault in anything but themselves...Edited by DDuke on October 20, 2014 9:30PM1 -
Palidon✭✭✭✭✭
✭Please give me a break. If you want to remove anything remove some of the power DK's have in PvP. Bow attacks do very little to them. And with Update 5 ZOS has nerfed the Nightblade sneak attacks which never did any damge to DK's either.1 -
PBpsy✭✭✭✭✭
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Hm if you take an arrow to the knee It really doesn't matter if you see it comingAh this old conversation.
Bows get bonus damage for sneak because getting hit with an arrow while caught off guard will do more damage. Other ranged weapons (all staffs in ESO's case) are magical. Magic isn't going to impact harder or be better placed if you catch someone off guard with it.
.
really. Sneak attacks do not really make any sense if we are considering realism.A bullet in the head will be a bullet in the head no mater.In a really good rpg system a sneak attack would just increase your chance of hit and your chance of crit. If it is a really really really good rpg combat system it would have body part targeted attacks where you have increased to hit rating if the target is unaware. But then again this is not a true rpg but more like Diablo in Tamriel.ESO forums achievementsProud fanboiElitist jerkTrollHaterFan of icontested(rainbow colors granted)0 -
Heishi✭✭✭✭✭
Hm if you take an arrow to the knee It really doesn't matter if you see it comingAh this old conversation.
Bows get bonus damage for sneak because getting hit with an arrow while caught off guard will do more damage. Other ranged weapons (all staffs in ESO's case) are magical. Magic isn't going to impact harder or be better placed if you catch someone off guard with it.
.
really. Sneak attacks do not really make any sense if we are considering realism.A bullet in the head will be a bullet in the head no mater.In a really good rpg system a sneak attack would just increase your chance of hit and your chance of crit. If it is a really really really good rpg combat system it would have body part targeted attacks where you have increased to hit rating if the target is unaware. But then again this is not a true rpg but more like Diablo in Tamriel.
Yeah, I misspoke a bit. I clarified it in my example ok though.For example: Shooting someone in the shoulder with and arrow because you are in combat isn't going to do as much damage to the person as if they were not aware and you laid a well placed arrow to the head/heart/ect.
I had meant when you're sneaking you can focus on aiming at more vital areas.
I do very much agree about the body part targeted attack. I don't even need like fallout style aim, it would be cool if they'd at least add headshots.And so did many brave men, women, and beast fall to the end of Beta, never to be heard from again. All that is left, is whispers of the adventures they had.0 -
ExiledKhallisi✭✭✭✭✭
Hm if you take an arrow to the knee It really doesn't matter if you see it comingAh this old conversation.
Bows get bonus damage for sneak because getting hit with an arrow while caught off guard will do more damage. Other ranged weapons (all staffs in ESO's case) are magical. Magic isn't going to impact harder or be better placed if you catch someone off guard with it.
.
really. Sneak attacks do not really make any sense if we are considering realism.A bullet in the head will be a bullet in the head no mater.In a really good rpg system a sneak attack would just increase your chance of hit and your chance of crit. If it is a really really really good rpg combat system it would have body part targeted attacks where you have increased to hit rating if the target is unaware. But then again this is not a true rpg but more like Diablo in Tamriel.
Considering realism, sure it does....
If you see a boulder coming your way, you can move to block or dodge. maybe it only grazes your shoulder. If you dont see it. It hits you in head.>>>>>>>>(DC)Guild Master of Biestas 250+ Active Members<<<<<<<<||||||Vr14 Sorc: Darkened Soul vr14 Templar: Tiffaney||||||“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War0 -
Decimus✭✭✭✭✭
Hm if you take an arrow to the knee It really doesn't matter if you see it comingAh this old conversation.
Bows get bonus damage for sneak because getting hit with an arrow while caught off guard will do more damage. Other ranged weapons (all staffs in ESO's case) are magical. Magic isn't going to impact harder or be better placed if you catch someone off guard with it.
.
really. Sneak attacks do not really make any sense if we are considering realism.A bullet in the head will be a bullet in the head no mater.In a really good rpg system a sneak attack would just increase your chance of hit and your chance of crit. If it is a really really really good rpg combat system it would have body part targeted attacks where you have increased to hit rating if the target is unaware. But then again this is not a true rpg but more like Diablo in Tamriel.
While localized damage would be cool, I believe that'd be quite taxing for the servers :P
I do, however, disagree with your description of a really good RPG system, unless that is your personal opinion (not based on the industry in general), if so, disregard everything below.
Look at the previous Elder Scrolls titles, all have had increased damage when attacking from sneak. But if we travel away from TES roots and take a look at games like Baldur's Gate 1 & 2, Planescape, or more recently; Divinity Original Sin, what they all have in common is that they have sneak (or backstab) increased damage.
In Fallout 3 & NV, where you can actually target different parts of the body, you get increased damage when attacking from stealth.
Outside the RPG scene, even FPS games (ok, about to open a can of worms here) have sneak attacks which instantly kill the opponent (no one is asking for instant kills).
Point is, the increased damage mechanism is in all these games for a reason, that reason being allowing the player more choices on how they want to play, how they want to deal damage.
There are multiple ways of making that happen, without having players "one shot" others, as mentioned earlier in the thread.
Removing a game mechanism (similar Impenetrable removing crit chance) wasn't necessary.Edited by Decimus on October 21, 2014 1:14AM0 -
ExiledKhallisi✭✭✭✭✭Heres why this would be a poor idea.
Currently if ZOS doesnt nerf the survivability of DK's...And they go ahead and nerf sneak attack damage to the ground. every single person, should just roll a DK. We will call it Elder Knights Online. The only way to really kill a Moderately good DK 1v1 is to get the jump on him.Edited by ExiledKhallisi on October 21, 2014 1:19AM>>>>>>>>(DC)Guild Master of Biestas 250+ Active Members<<<<<<<<||||||Vr14 Sorc: Darkened Soul vr14 Templar: Tiffaney||||||“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War2 -
Decimus✭✭✭✭✭ExiledKhallisi wrote: »Heres why this would be a poor idea.
Currently if ZOS doesnt nerf the survivability of DK's...And they go ahead and nerf sneak attack damage to the ground. every single person, should just roll a DK. We will call it Elder Knights Online. The only way to really kill a Moderately good DK 1v1 is to get the jump on him.
Well, it's mainly just a couple of vocal people complaining about something that recently killed them being "OP" and ZOS sadly listening to them.
Maybe they'll move on to complain about DKs next, and once they get nerfed they'll complain about yet another thing that killed them until it gets nerfed and so on...
An example why listening to the "community" isn't always a good idea
Edited by Decimus on October 21, 2014 1:48AM1 -
PBpsy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
Hm if you take an arrow to the knee It really doesn't matter if you see it comingAh this old conversation.
Bows get bonus damage for sneak because getting hit with an arrow while caught off guard will do more damage. Other ranged weapons (all staffs in ESO's case) are magical. Magic isn't going to impact harder or be better placed if you catch someone off guard with it.
.
really. Sneak attacks do not really make any sense if we are considering realism.A bullet in the head will be a bullet in the head no mater.In a really good rpg system a sneak attack would just increase your chance of hit and your chance of crit. If it is a really really really good rpg combat system it would have body part targeted attacks where you have increased to hit rating if the target is unaware. But then again this is not a true rpg but more like Diablo in Tamriel.
While localized damage would be cool, I believe that'd be quite taxing for the servers :P
I do, however, disagree with your description of a really good RPG system, unless that is your personal opinion (not based on the industry in general), if so, disregard everything below.
Look at the previous Elder Scrolls titles, all have had increased damage when attacking from sneak. But if we travel away from TES roots and take a look at games like Baldur's Gate 1 & 2, Planescape, or more recently; Divinity Original Sin, what they all have in common is that they have sneak (or backstab) increased damage.
In Fallout 3 & NV, where you can actually target different parts of the body, you get increased damage when attacking from stealth.
Outside the RPG scene, even FPS games (ok, about to open a can of worms here) have sneak attacks which instantly kill the opponent (no one is asking for instant kills).
Point is, the increased damage mechanism is in all these games for a reason, that reason being allowing the player more choices on how they want to play, how they want to deal damage.
There are multiple ways of making that happen, without having players "one shot" others, as mentioned earlier in the thread.
Removing a game mechanism (similar Impenetrable removing crit chance) wasn't necessary.
My point was more that there isn't that much more realism in an arrow doing more sneak attack damage because you couldn't see it than a fireball doing more damage because you didn't see it coming. If they hit you they should do the same amount of damage no mater what. It is just an arbitrary design choice. The part about the localized damage is what I think a rpg system geared towards realism would do. You would have increased chance to hit vitals due to a longer aim time and the target not taking any defensive measures. I am not saying that ESO should go that way or that it could work like this just what a realistic rpg combat system would do. The closest I have seen coming to that was Fallout 1/2 as in the most awesome crpgs ever made
. Edited by PBpsy on October 21, 2014 1:51AMESO forums achievementsProud fanboiElitist jerkTrollHaterFan of icontested(rainbow colors granted)0 -
Heishi✭✭✭✭✭Really it depends on how we except magic works in TES. As far as I know, the generally accepted way is that it disperses on impact and hits the target's whole body at once. Hence why whole bodies catch on fire, whole bodies freeze, disintegrat, ect. It's also worth note that magic doesn't physically hit you since you resist it with magic/spell resist, not armor(or physical resist).
I did initially say it was because of being unaware, but I corrected it to implied hitting vital spots. Apologies for that And so did many brave men, women, and beast fall to the end of Beta, never to be heard from again. All that is left, is whispers of the adventures they had.0
