Demonstrate that DKs are OP by playing one.

Bashev

Currently there are 3 major pvp play-styles.
1) PVP Gank from stelth
2) PVP Bomb groups
3) Many randoms vs Many randoms
DKs do not shine in survivability against a good stealth attack from 2-3 players. Yes it is better than the other classes but still in most of the cases you will die.
Against bomb groups there is no survivability. No class has this. Is is almost instant death.
The third type of PVP, randoms against randoms is based on the tank builds. Both sides has tanks in the front line. Who in most of the cases just hold the line doing CC while their friendlies use siege weapons or burst range damage. If you remove the survivability of the tanks what will happen? Then all glass cannons will cry that they will die instantly because they will be on focus and not the tanks.

Mendoze

ZOS_UlyssesW wrote: »

Hello, everyone. We are actively reading all your feedback, and do encourage you to continue to share it with us. Your constructive feedback is valuable, and allows us to make improvements to our game and ensure a fun and rewarding experience for everyone.

In order to ensure continued constructive and meaningful discussion on our forums, we ask that you please refrain from creating petition and protest organization threads on our forums. Neither allows for open, constructive discussion or exchange of ideas since most posts consist of “/signed.” Instead, we ask that you offer recommendations, suggestions, or requests about topics you feel need change. In order to continue making improvements to our game, it's important that we get details from you regarding why you like or dislike something.

We are leaving this thread open for discussion, but we've removed the word “protesting” from the title. If you have any questions or concerns about this edit, or our community rules of conduct, please feel free to contact us. Thank you!

I hate nerf class threads, and instead of that, I'd like to very selfishly try buff sorcerer here. Currently we are the only class that can't heal in PVP without resto staff. Constant nerfs to magicka builds, let it be resto staff DPS, light armor or numerous others general magicka nerfs have hit the sorcerer class the hardest every single time, because we don't really have melee/stamina build alternative. Next you'll nerf light armor skill line shield, and again no compensation. Bolt Escape you already nerfed twice, so what are we supposed to do, when we have zero defense and we can't attack because of Reflective Scales or Eclipse? We are not excelling in CC department, you took our DPS and next you take our defense, so any chance you could consider giving us something? I assume Sorcerers still do quite well in trials DPS, but in PVP you are just ruining us patch by patch.

zhevon

Balancing classes is nearly impossible especially when you are dealing with PvP and PvE. It just is.

What they should do instead of nerfing anything is:
First : Fix broken mechanics
Then: Beef up skills so each class feels a bit OP sometimes
Finally : Add Cooldowns in PvP

GwaynLoki

The problem I have with NB comments about not being able to take on DKs is the fact that I see it firsthand how the majority of NBs "play" PvP. They sit in stealth, wait for an easy target and then try to down it as fast as possible. Their builds consist of nothing other than dmg abilities and if they fail with their tactic, they run - or die. I might be wrong on this - I actually had a heated argument with one guy about it yesterday who told me it takes skill to use a snipe build because "if you pick a DK for target you will die" - but the problem with this tactic is that the majority of these NBs never have to actually test their own abilities in a more or less equal fight that takes more than 5 secs. They do however gain AP from the quick kills. Now, complaining about DKs "having an easy time with 1 vs x in PvP" while grabbing easy kills on unsuspecting people from stealth seems a bit of a double-standard to me (not arguing on whether DKs are OP or not, but one should at least reflect whether what he accuses others of doesn't also apply to him). I know people will say this is supposedly the only way to play an NB on the battlefield - it isn't - but this seems to be just an excuse to me, pidgeon-holing them into a "vicious" cycle: You think you can't beat others with more balanced builds, so you go for an extreme which means you can avoid the increased ttk that a balanced build forces on you. But at the same time, you lose the fighting experience playing a balanced build would give you. Shortly: YOu do not get better at 1 vs 1.
- Yes, there are lots of cheap ways to get AP out there and others are using them as well. (Though personally "The others are doing it as well" is imo a rather bad way of arguing.)
Now, before people accuse me of the usual "being arrogant and assuming I know everything about the class and PvP in general":
No, I don't think I am super-skilled. I apply common sense to my gameplay which means if get trapped in a DKs Talons and he drops banner, I just roll out. As ridiculous as it might seem, this isn't what I see other people usually do.
Also, I am not arguing whether Dks are OP in 1 on 1s. Why? Because unlike other people, I do not assume to actually know. In the last weeks, despite countless crashes, I have been actively looking for fights against Dks with my NB build - one that is balanced between offense and defense, doesn't use a bow or dual-wield and in contrast to the majority of snipe builds, does actually use self-heals. A build that I feel can take on the majority of other cookie-cutter class builds that exist. What are my experiences so far? Those DKs I felt were well-played were tough to kill - something that actually goes for any class I fought. Sadly enough, good 1 on 1s are hard to come by, many people just run when they meet you alone in Cyrodiil and some fights against DKs I felt might have become interesting got interrupted by allies or foes joining the fight.

Could it be that I am just a bad player meeting equally bad DKs? Always possible. Or does the majority of NBs complaining about DKs simply use the wrong build and mindset to take them on? Saying "but that's not the way I want to play" seems a weak argument for me, I am quite sure the majority of successful players are using stuff and skills they would not really want to use if they had the option to. There will always be weaker weapons and skills, if you decide to use them because you like them more than the better options, you already got a benefit from your choice. I feel that if you aren't willing to put effort into PvP, you simply don't deserve to win. Goes for both sides. Good dueling NB builds do exist.

Cherryblossom

DK's OP?

Its a good question, they do have amazing surviveability and not bad DPS.

If they are played well you don't want to meet them 1on1...

But that said if they are the run of the mill player playing, they go down much like everyone else.

I think the issue is that there are some very good players who have the skills and theorycraft to make themselves virtually unkillable as DK, which is not possible on other classes.

Are they over powered, in my opinion a little, they need some balancing to avoid some layering of skills and equipment that make them almost unkillable.

But the overall op-ness of the class does come down to Player Skill. I have seen some amazing NB (we know they need a little love) who are almost God like, so player skill can make a huge difference.
I don't think we should be calling for Nerf's based on the fact that a few players are really good with them....

Thrymbauld

There are very good players of many classes. Good DK players become really obvious really fast because of the type of overpowered they are.

Reflective Scales does not take player skill. It allows a player to stand in ridiculous kill zones and absorb damage, particularly with the proper gear combination.

I watched(good players, mind) jump up onto walls yesterday and just annihilate enemies trying to defend. Keep in mind that jumping means they arrived without a standard to drop. They where able to stay up there for minutes at a time, wreaking havoc. Sure, they where probably better than the other players up there, but when you reach a point that numbers can't utterly smother the very idea of something like that, class balance starts coming into serious question.

The level of effectiveness has had one upshot, though: getting the kill DragonKnights kill quest in Cyrodil has become my new favorite because there are so many that it easily completes in one siege or so.

Maulkin

Cherryblossom wrote: »

I think the issue is that there are some very good players who have the skills and theorycraft to make themselves virtually unkillable as DK, which is not possible on other classes.

There is no such thing as an unkillable DK. DKs are not the only people who theorycraft. S&B, magicka based NBs can give DKs a terrible time in duels and general 1v1.

They take advantage of the exact same mechanics the DK does, namely block casting, to do similar DPS but with much better stamina sustain. That's due to NBs having what is probably the best CC in the game (Fear).

The DK will either have to use a lot of extra stamina on Immovable or he'll have to CC break every 6 secs. Which makes him vulnerable to Invasion knockdowns followed by Suprise Attacks which do almost the same dmg as Flame Lash. Not to mention that with Impale, NBs have an execute.

No offense but the reason why most NBs suck is because they refuse to play in a way that brings the best out of their fantasic class. Most prefer to slot Focused Aim and Poison Injection and gank people. I've got nothing against that but when you get discovered by somebody with a build that is specifically melee and tanky don't come here and moan because you got your ass handed to you. It's how it is.

Varicite

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Cherryblossom wrote: »

I think the issue is that there are some very good players who have the skills and theorycraft to make themselves virtually unkillable as DK, which is not possible on other classes.

There is no such thing as an unkillable DK. DKs are not the only people who theorycraft. S&B, magicka based NBs can give DKs a terrible time in duels and general 1v1.

They take advantage of the exact same mechanics the DK does, namely block casting, to do similar DPS but with much better stamina sustain. That's due to NBs having what is probably the best CC in the game (Fear).

The DK will either have to use a lot of extra stamina on Immovable or he'll have to CC break every 6 secs. Which makes him vulnerable to Invasion knockdowns followed by Suprise Attacks which do almost the same dmg as Flame Lash. Not to mention that with Impale, NBs have an execute.

No offense but the reason why most NBs suck is because they refuse to play in a way that brings the best out of their fantasic class. Most prefer to slot Focused Aim and Poison Injection and gank people. I've got nothing against that but when you get discovered by somebody with a build that is specifically melee and tanky don't come here and moan because you got your ass handed to you. It's how it is.

You pretty much just described my NB exactly, lol.

Because that's what it takes to win, really. You have to craft your build for the meta, not for "I like this playstyle" if you really care about winning fights.

However, my DK does it better.

I'm not even on the nerf DK bandwagon; I play Sorc, DK, and NB (though my NBs have become my mains over the past couple months). I'm just calling it as I see it.

Maulkin

Varicite wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Cherryblossom wrote: »

I think the issue is that there are some very good players who have the skills and theorycraft to make themselves virtually unkillable as DK, which is not possible on other classes.

There is no such thing as an unkillable DK. DKs are not the only people who theorycraft. S&B, magicka based NBs can give DKs a terrible time in duels and general 1v1.

They take advantage of the exact same mechanics the DK does, namely block casting, to do similar DPS but with much better stamina sustain. That's due to NBs having what is probably the best CC in the game (Fear).

The DK will either have to use a lot of extra stamina on Immovable or he'll have to CC break every 6 secs. Which makes him vulnerable to Invasion knockdowns followed by Suprise Attacks which do almost the same dmg as Flame Lash. Not to mention that with Impale, NBs have an execute.

No offense but the reason why most NBs suck is because they refuse to play in a way that brings the best out of their fantasic class. Most prefer to slot Focused Aim and Poison Injection and gank people. I've got nothing against that but when you get discovered by somebody with a build that is specifically melee and tanky don't come here and moan because you got your ass handed to you. It's how it is.

You pretty much just described my NB exactly, lol.

Because that's what it takes to win, really. You have to craft your build for the meta, not for "I like this playstyle" if you really care about winning fights.

However, my DK does it better.

I'm not even on the nerf DK bandwagon; I play Sorc, DK, and NB (though my NBs have become my mains over the past couple months). I'm just calling it as I see it.

The DK is more tanky in 1vX sistuations, I won't dispute that. I don't think DKs are better off in terms of heals and sustain, because I've seen NBs with Sap Essence and Siphoning Attacks do some insane self-healing and keep going for seemingly ever. However Reflective Scales gives a DK an advantage in damage mitigation and DPS sustain when outnumbered.

So sure DK is a powerful tanky warrior and if that's how you like to play they're probably the best class, but the pros come with cons. DKs have no range at all and all their best skills have <10m radius, so they have to dive in and take it from all sides. They also have no escape, you either kill everyone around or you die.

So while with my DK I can jump into 3-4 (usually baddies) and kill them, I also die a lot more. When I play my Sorc on the other hand, I have a much higher kill streaks, because if the battle turns I can always flee to fight another day. I can get 6-7 kills during a siege just by kiting people from the walls.

So it's funny that NBs who as a class are better ranged DDs, better at ganking, better at evasion and equally good 1v1, are complaining because another class is better at sth which is what it was build to do, 1vX. I mean lol

Maulkin

double post, apparently

Araxleon

NB and DK are pretty balanced. I feel like people forget that DK skills "Cost Magicka" just like every class. They run out lol you just need to learn how to make them run out.
The only thing that isn't balanced is reflect, Its pretty self explanatory considering everything DK already has.
(Passives that restore 5% stam on cast, Greens dragons blood, 30% miss chance & more)
Any class can beat DK the point is most people don't wanna go full magicka.

Aeratus

Araxleon wrote: »

NB and DK are pretty balanced. I feel like people forget that DK skills "Cost Magicka" just like every class. They run out lol you just need to learn how to make them run out.
The only thing that isn't balanced is reflect, Its pretty self explanatory considering everything DK already has.
(Passives that restore 5% stam on cast, Greens dragons blood, 30% miss chance & more)
Any class can beat DK the point is most people don't wanna go full magicka.

If reflect can be toned down in some way, then DKs would be mostly well balanced in my book. It doesn't solve the magicka vs. stamina issues, but that's a separate issue.

Not to mention, the design of this skill is totally illogical and violates common sense physics.

Araxleon

Aeratus wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

NB and DK are pretty balanced. I feel like people forget that DK skills "Cost Magicka" just like every class. They run out lol you just need to learn how to make them run out.
The only thing that isn't balanced is reflect, Its pretty self explanatory considering everything DK already has.
(Passives that restore 5% stam on cast, Greens dragons blood, 30% miss chance & more)
Any class can beat DK the point is most people don't wanna go full magicka.

If reflect can be toned down in some way, then DKs would be mostly well balanced in my book. It doesn't solve the magicka vs. stamina issues, but that's a separate issue.

Not to mention, the design of this skill is totally illogical and violates common sense physics.

True True. A easy counter to DK is too kite them but you cant DPS and kite if they can reflect everything. Its sad how 1 ability can make a entire weapon line useless. it wouldn't solve every issue, but atleast DK would have a harder time and may consider changing their builds up if they could be kited easily.
Most DK cant do anything at long range, being able to kite them would add a actual "weakness"

ExiledKhallisi

ZOS_UlyssesW wrote: »

Hello, everyone. We are actively reading all your feedback, and do encourage you to continue to share it with us. Your constructive feedback is valuable, and allows us to make improvements to our game and ensure a fun and rewarding experience for everyone.

In order to ensure continued constructive and meaningful discussion on our forums, we ask that you please refrain from creating petition and protest organization threads on our forums. Neither allows for open, constructive discussion or exchange of ideas since most posts consist of “/signed.” Instead, we ask that you offer recommendations, suggestions, or requests about topics you feel need change. In order to continue making improvements to our game, it's important that we get details from you regarding why you like or dislike something.

We are leaving this thread open for discussion, but we've removed the word “protesting” from the title. If you have any questions or concerns about this edit, or our community rules of conduct, please feel free to contact us. Thank you!

No brainers really.

-Completely nerf the ability to cast and block at the same time.
-sword and board needs to be nerfed.
-make it so only people with 5+ pieces of that armor can use the active armor buff from that tree.
-nerf bats warm, make it stationary or lower the DMG by 40%
-DK mitigation is to great, rethink their abilities and add DR's. My DK is god. I have easily ..1v6+ players.

Maulkin

Aeratus wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

NB and DK are pretty balanced. I feel like people forget that DK skills "Cost Magicka" just like every class. They run out lol you just need to learn how to make them run out.
The only thing that isn't balanced is reflect, Its pretty self explanatory considering everything DK already has.
(Passives that restore 5% stam on cast, Greens dragons blood, 30% miss chance & more)
Any class can beat DK the point is most people don't wanna go full magicka.

If reflect can be toned down in some way, then DKs would be mostly well balanced in my book. It doesn't solve the magicka vs. stamina issues, but that's a separate issue.

Not to mention, the design of this skill is totally illogical and violates common sense physics.

Common sense physics don't apply to fantasy games.

As for Scales, they'll have to be very careful with nerfing it. Like I said DKs don't have any range and as such they have to dive in. They also have no escape. If all you do is dive in to get bombed by crystal frags and arrows, we might as well all just sit on two banks and pew pew each other.

The DKs are always the class that initiates combat by shield charging in. If there's no carrot dangled in front of you (the possibility of getting a few kills and surviving), then we might as well just sit on the side and repeat the rotation:
1) Crushing Shock
2) Crushing Shock
3) Crushing Shock
4) Crushing Shock
....
..
.

There's no doubt Scales are a very very strong skill. If they decide to nerf it I hope it's the damage side of it. The +33% is a bit OTT. However if they nerf it by doing what they did to Bolt Escape, it's going to be bad and it's going to be even worse for stamina builds.

Shunravi

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Aeratus wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

NB and DK are pretty balanced. I feel like people forget that DK skills "Cost Magicka" just like every class. They run out lol you just need to learn how to make them run out.
The only thing that isn't balanced is reflect, Its pretty self explanatory considering everything DK already has.
(Passives that restore 5% stam on cast, Greens dragons blood, 30% miss chance & more)
Any class can beat DK the point is most people don't wanna go full magicka.

If reflect can be toned down in some way, then DKs would be mostly well balanced in my book. It doesn't solve the magicka vs. stamina issues, but that's a separate issue.

Not to mention, the design of this skill is totally illogical and violates common sense physics.

Common sense physics don't apply to fantasy games.

As for Scales, they'll have to be very careful with nerfing it. Like I said DKs don't have any range and as such they have to dive in. They also have no escape. If all you do is dive in to get bombed by crystal frags and arrows, we might as well all just sit on two banks and pew pew each other.

The DKs are always the class that initiates combat by shield charging in. If there's no carrot dangled in front of you (the possibility of getting a few kills and surviving), then we might as well just sit on the side and repeat the rotation:
1) Crushing Shock
2) Crushing Shock
3) Crushing Shock
4) Crushing Shock
....
..
.

There's no doubt Scales are a very very strong skill. If they decide to nerf it I hope it's the damage side of it. The +33% is a bit OTT. However if they nerf it by doing what they did to Bolt Escape, it's going to be bad and it's going to be even worse for stamina builds.

What I like doing against scales is using a powerfull ranged spell, and then pop my defensive posture. It's so much fun hitting a Dk with his own (now unreflectable) +33%.

Araxleon

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Aeratus wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

NB and DK are pretty balanced. I feel like people forget that DK skills "Cost Magicka" just like every class. They run out lol you just need to learn how to make them run out.
The only thing that isn't balanced is reflect, Its pretty self explanatory considering everything DK already has.
(Passives that restore 5% stam on cast, Greens dragons blood, 30% miss chance & more)
Any class can beat DK the point is most people don't wanna go full magicka.

If reflect can be toned down in some way, then DKs would be mostly well balanced in my book. It doesn't solve the magicka vs. stamina issues, but that's a separate issue.

Not to mention, the design of this skill is totally illogical and violates common sense physics.

Common sense physics don't apply to fantasy games.

As for Scales, they'll have to be very careful with nerfing it. Like I said DKs don't have any range and as such they have to dive in. They also have no escape. If all you do is dive in to get bombed by crystal frags and arrows, we might as well all just sit on two banks and pew pew each other.

The DKs are always the class that initiates combat by shield charging in. If there's no carrot dangled in front of you (the possibility of getting a few kills and surviving), then we might as well just sit on the side and repeat the rotation:
1) Crushing Shock
2) Crushing Shock
3) Crushing Shock
4) Crushing Shock
....
..
.

There's no doubt Scales are a very very strong skill. If they decide to nerf it I hope it's the damage side of it. The +33% is a bit OTT. However if they nerf it by doing what they did to Bolt Escape, it's going to be bad and it's going to be even worse for stamina builds.

You are correct. But they have chain pull? Which most of them really dont use...

Maulkin

Shunravi wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Aeratus wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

NB and DK are pretty balanced. I feel like people forget that DK skills "Cost Magicka" just like every class. They run out lol you just need to learn how to make them run out.
The only thing that isn't balanced is reflect, Its pretty self explanatory considering everything DK already has.
(Passives that restore 5% stam on cast, Greens dragons blood, 30% miss chance & more)
Any class can beat DK the point is most people don't wanna go full magicka.

If reflect can be toned down in some way, then DKs would be mostly well balanced in my book. It doesn't solve the magicka vs. stamina issues, but that's a separate issue.

Not to mention, the design of this skill is totally illogical and violates common sense physics.

Common sense physics don't apply to fantasy games.

As for Scales, they'll have to be very careful with nerfing it. Like I said DKs don't have any range and as such they have to dive in. They also have no escape. If all you do is dive in to get bombed by crystal frags and arrows, we might as well all just sit on two banks and pew pew each other.

The DKs are always the class that initiates combat by shield charging in. If there's no carrot dangled in front of you (the possibility of getting a few kills and surviving), then we might as well just sit on the side and repeat the rotation:
1) Crushing Shock
2) Crushing Shock
3) Crushing Shock
4) Crushing Shock
....
..
.

There's no doubt Scales are a very very strong skill. If they decide to nerf it I hope it's the damage side of it. The +33% is a bit OTT. However if they nerf it by doing what they did to Bolt Escape, it's going to be bad and it's going to be even worse for stamina builds.

What I like doing against scales is using a powerfull ranged spell, and then pop my defensive posture. It's so much fun hitting a Dk with his own (now unreflectable) +33%.

Ssshhh, that's secret

chipputer

I wonder how many of these topics are spawned from one DK being beaten by another DK and getting jealous?

I'm not an avid PvP player, but making a pyromancer DK build in PvE caused me to realize just how much faster I could kill groups than with any of my other character builds that I've tried. Crap's crazy, yo.

Shunravi

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Aeratus wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

NB and DK are pretty balanced. I feel like people forget that DK skills "Cost Magicka" just like every class. They run out lol you just need to learn how to make them run out.
The only thing that isn't balanced is reflect, Its pretty self explanatory considering everything DK already has.
(Passives that restore 5% stam on cast, Greens dragons blood, 30% miss chance & more)
Any class can beat DK the point is most people don't wanna go full magicka.

If reflect can be toned down in some way, then DKs would be mostly well balanced in my book. It doesn't solve the magicka vs. stamina issues, but that's a separate issue.

Not to mention, the design of this skill is totally illogical and violates common sense physics.

Common sense physics don't apply to fantasy games.

As for Scales, they'll have to be very careful with nerfing it. Like I said DKs don't have any range and as such they have to dive in. They also have no escape. If all you do is dive in to get bombed by crystal frags and arrows, we might as well all just sit on two banks and pew pew each other.

The DKs are always the class that initiates combat by shield charging in. If there's no carrot dangled in front of you (the possibility of getting a few kills and surviving), then we might as well just sit on the side and repeat the rotation:
1) Crushing Shock
2) Crushing Shock
3) Crushing Shock
4) Crushing Shock
....
..
.

There's no doubt Scales are a very very strong skill. If they decide to nerf it I hope it's the damage side of it. The +33% is a bit OTT. However if they nerf it by doing what they did to Bolt Escape, it's going to be bad and it's going to be even worse for stamina builds.

What I like doing against scales is using a powerfull ranged spell, and then pop my defensive posture. It's so much fun hitting a Dk with his own (now unreflectable) +33%.

Ssshhh, that's secret

Oops... I forgot.

Bashev

Araxleon wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Aeratus wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

NB and DK are pretty balanced. I feel like people forget that DK skills "Cost Magicka" just like every class. They run out lol you just need to learn how to make them run out.
The only thing that isn't balanced is reflect, Its pretty self explanatory considering everything DK already has.
(Passives that restore 5% stam on cast, Greens dragons blood, 30% miss chance & more)
Any class can beat DK the point is most people don't wanna go full magicka.

If reflect can be toned down in some way, then DKs would be mostly well balanced in my book. It doesn't solve the magicka vs. stamina issues, but that's a separate issue.

Not to mention, the design of this skill is totally illogical and violates common sense physics.

Common sense physics don't apply to fantasy games.

As for Scales, they'll have to be very careful with nerfing it. Like I said DKs don't have any range and as such they have to dive in. They also have no escape. If all you do is dive in to get bombed by crystal frags and arrows, we might as well all just sit on two banks and pew pew each other.

The DKs are always the class that initiates combat by shield charging in. If there's no carrot dangled in front of you (the possibility of getting a few kills and surviving), then we might as well just sit on the side and repeat the rotation:
1) Crushing Shock
2) Crushing Shock
3) Crushing Shock
4) Crushing Shock
....
..
.

There's no doubt Scales are a very very strong skill. If they decide to nerf it I hope it's the damage side of it. The +33% is a bit OTT. However if they nerf it by doing what they did to Bolt Escape, it's going to be bad and it's going to be even worse for stamina builds.

You are correct. But they have chain pull? Which most of them really dont use...

We don't use it, guess why? Because Zenimax screwed it and now in 80% of the time the target is not at the same level with you.

Emperor

I play a DK and a KB. Both have amazing abilities and play styles which makes them both fun to play.

My DK is fun to rush in the middle of a battle and kill a couple people, but his DPS is pretty low. My KB is fun to gank people with. I snipe people for well over 2,000 and follow up with other attacks to kill them before they even realize they were being attacked. It's so much fun!

People need to get it through their thick skulls that there are different classes for a reason. Different classes usually have different play styles to keep things interesting otherwise it would all be the same.

khele23eb17_ESO

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Cherryblossom wrote: »

I think the issue is that there are some very good players who have the skills and theorycraft to make themselves virtually unkillable as DK, which is not possible on other classes.

There is no such thing as an unkillable DK. DKs are not the only people who theorycraft. S&B, magicka based NBs can give DKs a terrible time in duels and general 1v1.

They take advantage of the exact same mechanics the DK does, namely block casting, to do similar DPS but with much better stamina sustain. That's due to NBs having what is probably the best CC in the game (Fear).

The DK will either have to use a lot of extra stamina on Immovable or he'll have to CC break every 6 secs. Which makes him vulnerable to Invasion knockdowns followed by Suprise Attacks which do almost the same dmg as Flame Lash. Not to mention that with Impale, NBs have an execute.

No offense but the reason why most NBs suck is because they refuse to play in a way that brings the best out of their fantasic class. Most prefer to slot Focused Aim and Poison Injection and gank people. I've got nothing against that but when you get discovered by somebody with a build that is specifically melee and tanky don't come here and moan because you got your ass handed to you. It's how it is.

You pretty much just described my NB exactly, lol.

Because that's what it takes to win, really. You have to craft your build for the meta, not for "I like this playstyle" if you really care about winning fights.

However, my DK does it better.

I'm not even on the nerf DK bandwagon; I play Sorc, DK, and NB (though my NBs have become my mains over the past couple months). I'm just calling it as I see it.

The DK is more tanky in 1vX sistuations, I won't dispute that. I don't think DKs are better off in terms of heals and sustain, because I've seen NBs with Sap Essence and Siphoning Attacks do some insane self-healing and keep going for seemingly ever. However Reflective Scales gives a DK an advantage in damage mitigation and DPS sustain when outnumbered.

So sure DK is a powerful tanky warrior and if that's how you like to play they're probably the best class, but the pros come with cons. DKs have no range at all and all their best skills have <10m radius, so they have to dive in and take it from all sides. They also have no escape, you either kill everyone around or you die.

So while with my DK I can jump into 3-4 (usually baddies) and kill them, I also die a lot more. When I play my Sorc on the other hand, I have a much higher kill streaks, because if the battle turns I can always flee to fight another day. I can get 6-7 kills during a siege just by kiting people from the walls.

So it's funny that NBs who as a class are better ranged DDs, better at ganking, better at evasion and equally good 1v1, are complaining because another class is better at sth which is what it was build to do, 1vX. I mean lol

I think its more about the fact that NB players didnt roll the class with the wish of being a typical mmo caster and yet somehow that seems to be the one thing that works. Yes theres ganking but not everyone's satisfied with being reduced to doing just that.

Redlag

Araxleon wrote: »

NB and DK are pretty balanced. I feel like people forget that DK skills "Cost Magicka" just like every class. They run out lol you just need to learn how to make them run out.
The only thing that isn't balanced is reflect, Its pretty self explanatory considering everything DK already has.
(Passives that restore 5% stam on cast, Greens dragons blood, 30% miss chance & more)
Any class can beat DK the point is most people don't wanna go full magicka.

I think battle roar negates your post. It's on demand heals and on demand resources.

I would also argue against the person claiming NBs fear as the best CC. If the target is blocking they block through the fear. Where as Talons is the bane to stamina and all defenses. It can be reapplied right after a dodge/roll which is 1/3 of most players stamina. Do you dodge roll again? and again? Where as CC immunity is applied to fears.

Also in this thread above someone stating that NBs don't slot defenses. That's a joke. Dks get battle roar. They can use any ult like standard to deliver heavy AoE damage while getting heals to health plus stamina and magica back. Where as a NB has to use abilities on their bars to get heals and to get resource manage DKs get as a passive.

For instance if I am a gank NB I have to slot Dark Cloak and change to resto staff for to get my heals no resource management. If Im a NB Tank I have to slot Sap essence, strife (slot both for heals because of you face a DK they reflect strife), and siphoning strikes in order to maintain and also need a resto staff for some form of regenerations. Now Im building to get what a DK gets as a passive. Not only that, when I throw on siphoning strikes it takes two slots so I don't have to reactivate it every time and it reduces all damage by 22%. Where's the 22% damage nerf passive added for choosing to train in Battle Roar? DKs get to slot all these fun damage mitigation shields. When a NB slots all these defenses we go.. Hmm what am I gonna do for damamge?

Dks CC steals stamina if you don't want to sit rooted, does damage , and can be reapplied anytime someone rolls out of it. Therefore Dks aren't trying to find some super build to damage, CC, get better resource regeneration, and be tanky. So where are we at with the DK regarding my post. One CC and 1 passive. Night blades have to slot up and down to get that resource management and control over another player while doing damage. We go to bed at night trying to dream up a super build that allows us to do damage and be tanky.

It doesn't matter. All I know is that no matter how I set up my Nightblade I am always making choices and sacrifices that I regret. There isn't a build that I am happy with. I run syphers reflect, GDB, Talons, Lava whip, shield charge on my VR14 DK and I'm whistling "Singing In the Rain" while I pvp. I don't even know why we call it syphers build. Monkeys would evolve to that build after a week of testing PvP. It has everything CC, resource management, damage, heals, and no need to weapon swap lag when your life depends on in. You wouldn't know what weapon swap lag is as DK unless you're going out of the box trying to make it harder on yourself.

Vizier

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

DKs and Sorcs man, easily the best classes around in this small pool of classes lol But seriously, DKs man, and Sorcs, holy ***.

DK n Sorc = EZ mode.

Routinely witness 1 DK fending off 5-10 for long epic battles and utterly slaughter anything less than 5 on 1. It's absurd.

Sorc- Easily the most mobile class on the battle field with high damage mitigation and best dps ranged or close.

So what's to be done? Hell if I know. Nerf or Buff others?

As primarily a NB player I don't expect to stand toe to toe with a DK. I expect to have a reasonable chance to strike unexpectedly with massive burst DPS and have a reasonable opportunity to escape should things go, not so well. Honestly I think with whatever changes have been made recently to NB Shadow Cloak the game made a big shift in the right direction toward more balanced play. Certainly more tweaks are coming but my NB being elusive once again has bee very fun to play, even pre vet in PvP.

Aeratus

Redlag wrote: »

For instance if I am a gank NB I have to slot Dark Cloak and change to resto staff for to get my heals no resource management.

Seriously, if you're going to go ganking, just drop cloak and teleport strike from your bar. Just use shield charge as your opener. Shield charge is the best way to gank other NBs, since it fools them into thinking that you're a DK.

Maulkin

Redlag I stopped reading at "target blocking through fear". Block doesn't stop fear. It works through block. And Battle Roar is not on demand, as no ultie is on demand, being an ultie and all. It's not a skill.

You seem to not know your class very well, or at all.

Varicite

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Redlag I stopped reading at "target blocking through fear". Block doesn't stop fear. It works through block. And Battle Roar is not on demand, as no ultie is on demand, being an ultie and all. It's not a skill.

You seem to not know your class very well, or at all.

Uh, he means that you can still block while feared. Which is true.

You... did know that, right?

Redlag

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Redlag I stopped reading at "target blocking through fear". Block doesn't stop fear. It works through block. And Battle Roar is not on demand, as no ultie is on demand, being an ultie and all. It's not a skill.

You seem to not know your class very well, or at all.

You should probably stop reading and start trying to comprehend. If you fear someone that is blocking. It will fear them, but they will still be blocking = no damage anyways.

Aoe_Barbecue

DK's are very good AoE tanks and DPS'ers when spec'd to do so. They also make good soloists and duelists but maximum effectiveness in AoE tanky-DPS and maximum effectiveness dueling and soloing are on a scale opposite each other; the more you go in one direction the more you lose in another.

Nightblades are even better AoE tanks than DK's when spec'd to do so. They will lack in AoE DPS compared to a DK, but can build ultimate very quickly with a certain build and play style so that they can spam Devouring Swarm or Veil of Blades quite quickly. Their resource sustain is outstanding ... perhaps the best in the game. Nightblades make the best archers and they are, overall, probably the best duelist class in the game when played correctly.

Templars are the best at healing through burst in PvP and PvE and noticeably so at that. They are the only class that has a whole tree dedicated to group support and healing. They also have awesome AoE tanky-DPS abilities right up there with DK's. If they didn't lack Reflective Scales they would be better in the tank department than DK's too.

Sorcs have the best mobility/escape in the game and are probably the most versatile overall class. They can heal very well. They can also DPS very well. A sorc cannot face tank like the other three classes but has its own style of survivability: mobility and crowd control. Negate Magic is the most tactically important PvP ultimate in the game. Streak's short duration, AoE stun effect can keep whole raids stunlocked or low on stamina if a few sorcs are streaking.

In short, every class is capable of being clutch.