Demonstrate that DKs are OP by playing one.

TehMagnus

This is not gonna stop untill someone makes a guide on "how to beat DK's" and even then, nubs will keep saying the class is too op .

khele23eb17_ESO

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

jelliedsoup wrote: »

The thing I find the most frustrating is most dks play exactly the same way. They then turn around and say it's all about learning to play your build.

If all the DKs play the same, yet you haven't found a way to kill them that says more about you than the DKs don't you think?

So if someone takes a gun and shoots a bunch of people in the street does that tell you guns are very efficient killing tools agains unarmed targets or that those people sucked at dodging bullets?

I frankly have no idea what you're talking about....

Since they havent found a way to dodge bullets that says more about them than the guy with he gun, dont you think?

Aeratus

In terms of 1v1, DK is probably not OP, or at most only slightly OP. The people who complain about DKs in 1v1 are generally stamina NBs built for stealth/sniping who want to take on DKs in melee combat. But the problem isn't so much of DK, but that sword and shield are better than dual wield in 1v1 melee combat. These NBs who try to melee shield characters would also be wrecked by a 1h-shield NB, or any other class using 1h-shield. Watch that second video posted above and you can see why that guy would easily wreck the average dw/bow NB you see in cyrodiil.

In terms of mid-scale group combat, DK is OP. DK has more ways to deal with multiple opponents than any other class, using reflective scales, talon, battle roar, inhale, and banner. That is why there are so many 1vX DK videos.

In PVE, DK is OP because the class has both top offense (dps) as well as top defense. Templar arguably matches DK in tanking, but doesn't come close in DPS. Furthermore, DK theretically are good healers using igneous shield, although there are not many DKs who build for a healer role since they are so good at the other two roles.

Maulkin

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

jelliedsoup wrote: »

The thing I find the most frustrating is most dks play exactly the same way. They then turn around and say it's all about learning to play your build.

If all the DKs play the same, yet you haven't found a way to kill them that says more about you than the DKs don't you think?

So if someone takes a gun and shoots a bunch of people in the street does that tell you guns are very efficient killing tools agains unarmed targets or that those people sucked at dodging bullets?

I frankly have no idea what you're talking about....

Since they havent found a way to dodge bullets that says more about them than the guy with he gun, dont you think?

Considering there's plenty of videos, in this thread included, of NBs killing DKs in open 1v1 and 1vX combat (I'm not talking about ganking), two things are possible:

a) these NBs are bullet-dodgers on the level of Neo from Matrix or....
b) your analogy is wrong

I'll go with the latter, tyvm.

Heishi

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Well, I will say oneone thing. Any class that can go in the middle of 20 people with all 20 attacking them and not die is a tad rediculous. I see it time and time again. Heck, just saw it about 30 minutes ago. It was stupid.

This makes me wonder.. if AoE's are being limited to 6 targets because servers can only calculate so many damage/effects/ect per sec without having bog down issues, as was explained in more depth in another thread, I wonder if one player can only be hit so many times per second or only be hit by a certain number of people.

From posts I've read about OP class/players since the game started, it doesn't seem to matter whether 10, 20, or 30 people are attacking one person (to hear the complainers tell it along with videos of this happening from past to present).

Aeratus

Heishi wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Well, I will say oneone thing. Any class that can go in the middle of 20 people with all 20 attacking them and not die is a tad rediculous. I see it time and time again. Heck, just saw it about 30 minutes ago. It was stupid.

This makes me wonder.. if AoE's are being limited to 6 targets because servers can only calculate so many damage/effects/ect per sec without having bog down issues, as was explained in more depth in another thread, I wonder if one player can only be hit so many times per second or only be hit by a certain number of people.

From posts I've read about OP class/players since the game started, it doesn't seem to matter whether 10, 20, or 30 people are attacking one person (to hear the complainers tell it along with videos of this happening from past to present).

There is no cap on number of people attacking you.

So if it's 1 vs 20, the 1 can only hit 6 people max, but he can be hit by all 20 people simultaneously.

Armitas

Aeratus wrote: »

In terms of mid-scale group combat, DK is OP. DK has more ways to deal with multiple opponents than any other class, using reflective scales, talon, battle roar, inhale, and banner. That is why there are so many 1vX DK videos.

I think we have these tools so that we can fulfill a very purposeful role in PvP. We are out there in the middle of the battlefield taking all the heat from the group upon ourselves. Without that everyone would just stand on either side and pew pew each other in a stand off. We have no pew pew, so we would either have to sit back and wait for something to come in melee range, or charge in and be immediately focus fired and dead.

A lot of the 1vX deaths need not have happened if people just knew what they were doing or had a contingency bar. I have seen people kill themselves only from reflective scales. Despite 10m long dragon wings they just keep firing over and over again until they die feeding me ultimate. The 1vX videos are just a collection of player mistakes that lead to the death of 10 people.

I think it is the players that are unknowingly making mistakes that give the DK the room to 1vX. DK's feed off of mistakes. Every level 10 player that rushes in and gets himself killed fuels an ultimate, and a battleroar. Every player that freaks out from talons and blows all his stamina so he can't roll out when the banner comes down makes that DK all the more harder to kill.

I think PvP in an open field would become drastically stagnant if this role could not be fulfilled.

Soloeus

All I know is that my level 30 range DK is actually better in PVP than my Vet Sorcerer and Vet Templar. I have a few suspicions as to why.

1. DK's have the best AoE in the game hands down. It is no secret that Sorc Impulse Vamps are annoying (I am one, you're welcome). Perhaps the only thing worse is Vamp DK and Vamp Templar (I am each, you're welcome).

DK AoE is cheap, reliable, hard hitting. Combine this with the best Single Target defense, Flappy Flap (reflective scales), and you have a situation in which other classes aren't really suitable to fight the DK. The other classes lack of AoE means that most of their abilities are useless against the DK.

2. Every class can perform every role exceptionally well in ESO. Unfortunately, the DK can perform every role better than any member of the other classes. DK's can use the same sets as Sorcerers to set up enough mana to healtankdeeps (is that a new role?) all at the same time.

3. DK has a whole lot of useful abilities. It is a very well designed class. By contrast, Sorcerer has several good abilities and a lot of terrible ones which is why every sorcerer "runs the same build." Templar builds are very much role-based. The trouble is maintaining DPS output. Templars are flexible and burst healing means it can survive about anything. About half of the class abilities are totally worthless. I haven't played my nightblade much only level 19. I will say life isn't easy. Maybe this is just because its low level, but I don't enjoy playing it.

jelliedsoup

The ability to be a tank and DPS is a problem.

Like it or not, most people play a cookie cutter type role and those who play a DK want the skills used which allows DPS and tank.

I don't play an NB or use siphon skills or be a tank, while there will be some who want to, or have adapted, it's not a common role for many playing NB. Bow and dual wield brigade are not suited for a commonly decked dk.

The animation for siphon skills are shite, which is not going to entice people to use them.

I have found news from the guild summit to be zos admitting they have stuffed up allowing people to be both DPS and tank builds, and cast blocking.

Sooner the better.

What many DK defenders fail to grasp is that you must conform to magicka based builds to beat the generic DK builds.

This is not true of the other three classes type builds which focus on magicka. Temps are not easy with stam builds, but if you get the jump on them you can do more damage than they can heal. DKs while this is possible, its tricky and unlikely. And the DK needs to make a mistake. You need to pick what sequence of skills they're going to take, and be one step ahead of what they're going to do.

jelliedsoup

I'm guessing the lol is from a dk pretending that the my build is just wrong and this has nothing to do with DKs.

I've killed a DK who is well known in 1v1, but needed to hit him from stealth and pre-empted exactly what he was going to do in respose. Other classes I don't have to bother, so it appears all I have to do is pre-empt what they're going to do to beat them.

But by all means, DKs should be allowed to spam the same skills for tank/dps and win, it makes the game much more interesting.

Maulkin

jelliedsoup wrote: »

I've killed a DK who is well known in 1v1, but needed to hit him from stealth

Oh @jelliedsoup‌ , thanks for the laughs

jelliedsoup

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

jelliedsoup wrote: »

I've killed a DK who is well known in 1v1, but needed to hit him from stealth

Oh @jelliedsoup‌ , thanks for the laughs

Your pretence of an in-depth game analysis boils down to wanting DKs to be strong and trying to justify it. Difference is I don't have some poor development implementation to rationalise it.

Good choice of quoting there. It seems cherry picking is a life choice. It must help you.

jelliedsoup

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Actually all I read between the lines in these posts are NBs justifiably moaning that they have problems with DKs.
Why not ask to fix and buff your NB instead of crying for a nerf of DKs?

NBs as a class have no particular problem against DKs. I see NBs use Fear and Shades to demolish DKs all the time. The complains come mostly from NBs who set themselves up for ranged ganking and evasion, yet unsurprisingly get owned by melee warriors when their cover is blown.

It's their expectation of being good at everything with the same build that's out of kilt.

Is this some sort reference to the Scots not wearing undies? When in Edinburgh I guess...

jelliedsoup

magnusnet wrote: »

This is not gonna stop untill someone makes a guide on "how to beat DK's" and even then, nubs will keep saying the class is too op .

i know, it's as if they think it's OP, when you've proven that it's not by playing DK and saying it's not.

Why won't they buy it? You'd think they'd accept your word for it and disregard what they see in game.

Or nubs could stop playing the Reflect > Invasion > Talons > Whip (and dragon blood if needed) combo?

Soulshine

Heishi wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Well, I will say oneone thing. Any class that can go in the middle of 20 people with all 20 attacking them and not die is a tad rediculous. I see it time and time again. Heck, just saw it about 30 minutes ago. It was stupid.

This makes me wonder.. if AoE's are being limited to 6 targets because servers can only calculate so many damage/effects/ect per sec without having bog down issues, as was explained in more depth in another thread, I wonder if one player can only be hit so many times per second or only be hit by a certain number of people.

From posts I've read about OP class/players since the game started, it doesn't seem to matter whether 10, 20, or 30 people are attacking one person (to hear the complainers tell it along with videos of this happening from past to present).

Just a clarification: AoE is not being limited to 6 targets. The full damage is limited to 6 targets, but you can still do incremental damage to targets beyond 6 targets, the amount of the damage having to do with how close or far they are to you.

Varicite

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

It's their expectation of being good at everything with the same build that's out of kilt.

Unless you're a DK, of course.

Then that's just perfectly acceptable.

Defenses? Check. Single-target? Check. AoE? Check. Heals? Check.

Maybe people complain about not being good at everything w/ the same build because there are extremely common DK builds that are good at everything.

Maybe, just maybe, that's what's actually "out of kilt".

sagitter

damage while blocking ,this is the main issue.

Xsorus

Looks like I'm going to have to release an nb video to put this crap to rest. The block whiners will probably still cry though cause they don't understand how the game works

Varicite

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Looks like I'm going to have to release an nb video to put this crap to rest. The block whiners will probably still cry though cause they don't understand how the game works

Are you suggesting that a NB has the same amount of survivability, burst healing, damage, and control of a Sypher/Sweet-built DK, then?

I'm a huge advocate of NBs, but I'm not blind. I can do fine w/ my S&S / Resto NB, but I definitely lack the situational control of a DK.

I know this because I also play DK and Sorc, and certain tools simply don't exist for NBs. I can work around this and still manage to be successful, but the issue that most players are upset about still remains:

DKs do it better w/ a single build.

Does this make NBs weak? No, of course not. But it does discourage a portion of the playerbase to know that there is no NB analog to many of the strong choices that every single other class has access to.

Soloeus

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Looks like I'm going to have to release an nb video to put this crap to rest. The block whiners will probably still cry though cause they don't understand how the game works

Red Herring.

NB Speedvamp is OP too, but not like DK's. You are comparing Pasta to Pineapples.

jelliedsoup

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Looks like I'm going to have to release an nb video to put this crap to rest. The block whiners will probably still cry though cause they don't understand how the game works

If it involves sword and board and siphon skills, don't bother.

Varicite

jelliedsoup wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Looks like I'm going to have to release an nb video to put this crap to rest. The block whiners will probably still cry though cause they don't understand how the game works

If it involves sword and board, don't bother.

Why not? The DKs everybody are complaining about use sword & board.

Are we still discussing DKs here, or weapon skill lines?

Aeratus

Yeah, I've never heard of people complain about how dw/bow DKs are overpowered. It's just the sword and board ones that get the complaints.

jelliedsoup

Varicite wrote: »

jelliedsoup wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Looks like I'm going to have to release an nb video to put this crap to rest. The block whiners will probably still cry though cause they don't understand how the game works

If it involves sword and board, don't bother.

Why not? The DKs everybody are complaining about use sword & board.

Are we still discussing DKs here, or weapon skill lines?

I'm discussing dks.
I know some builds of NBS are able to beat dks. Stamina builds are not. The cast block dynamic coupled with dk skills is just silly.

Most playing dks want the sword/board, NBS
Not so much.

I know many dks consider this to be solely caused by the cast block, but you still need the skills to cast.

Xsorus

Varicite wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Looks like I'm going to have to release an nb video to put this crap to rest. The block whiners will probably still cry though cause they don't understand how the game works

Are you suggesting that a NB has the same amount of survivability, burst healing, damage, and control of a Sypher/Sweet-built DK, then?

I'm a huge advocate of NBs, but I'm not blind. I can do fine w/ my S&S / Resto NB, but I definitely lack the situational control of a DK.

I know this because I also play DK and Sorc, and certain tools simply don't exist for NBs. I can work around this and still manage to be successful, but the issue that most players are upset about still remains:

DKs do it better w/ a single build.

Does this make NBs weak? No, of course not. But it does discourage a portion of the playerbase to know that there is no NB analog to many of the strong choices that every single other class has access to.

Damage and control are easily on par if not higher in some cases. Survivabity and healing is a little different. Funnel health will easily out heal dragon blood any day of the week over time. But you will lack burst healing. You'll have to use healing wars for that. Survability it depends. Being able to tank large numbers you won't be able to do it as well. However being able to survive also implies being able to escape fights and having stealth helps with that.

Xsorus

jelliedsoup wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

jelliedsoup wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Looks like I'm going to have to release an nb video to put this crap to rest. The block whiners will probably still cry though cause they don't understand how the game works

If it involves sword and board, don't bother.

Why not? The DKs everybody are complaining about use sword & board.

Are we still discussing DKs here, or weapon skill lines?

I'm discussing dks.
I know some builds of NBS are able to beat dks. Stamina builds are not. The cast block dynamic coupled with dk skills is just silly.

Most playing dks want the sword/board, NBS
Not so much.

I know many dks consider this to be solely caused by the cast block, but you still need the skills to cast.

Against most dks as a stamina nb try dual wields heated blade. Which should work well since you can apply fear and shades and bring down stamina quickly. Just don't use flurry cause it's bugged and will kill you

Razzak

ZOS_UlyssesW wrote: »

Hello, everyone. We are actively reading all your feedback, and do encourage you to continue to share it with us. Your constructive feedback is valuable, and allows us to make improvements to our game and ensure a fun and rewarding experience for everyone.

In order to ensure continued constructive and meaningful discussion on our forums, we ask that you please refrain from creating petition and protest organization threads on our forums. Neither allows for open, constructive discussion or exchange of ideas since most posts consist of “/signed.” Instead, we ask that you offer recommendations, suggestions, or requests about topics you feel need change. In order to continue making improvements to our game, it's important that we get details from you regarding why you like or dislike something.

We are leaving this thread open for discussion, but we've removed the word “protesting” from the title. If you have any questions or concerns about this edit, or our community rules of conduct, please feel free to contact us. Thank you!

So, your idea of constructive environment is to basically do nothing more but "we read" posts and censorship. Don't you think BOTH sides (you and us) should be actively engaged in constructive COMMUNICATION if we every want to achieve such a goal?

Maulkin

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

jelliedsoup wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

jelliedsoup wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Looks like I'm going to have to release an nb video to put this crap to rest. The block whiners will probably still cry though cause they don't understand how the game works

If it involves sword and board, don't bother.

Why not? The DKs everybody are complaining about use sword & board.

Are we still discussing DKs here, or weapon skill lines?

I'm discussing dks.
I know some builds of NBS are able to beat dks. Stamina builds are not. The cast block dynamic coupled with dk skills is just silly.

Most playing dks want the sword/board, NBS
Not so much.

I know many dks consider this to be solely caused by the cast block, but you still need the skills to cast.

Against most dks as a stamina nb try dual wields heated blade. Which should work well since you can apply fear and shades and bring down stamina quickly. Just don't use flurry cause it's bugged and will kill you

Well-meaning as you are, your advice is wasted here. They just don't want to learn, they're more content to cry for nerfs while dying under a banner.

KenjiJU

Mondo wrote: »

Ah ZOS_Ulysses please give us a Statement how do ZOS feel about DK? Is it just fine or will there be little changes? Tell us that would be nice and i swear by the gods i will stop complaining

Dks are like their first born. You could call them Dragon-born. It's what all their other children are compared to. That's why they have unmitigated abilities when other classes get 'me too' abilities that work half as well just for the sake of being 'different'.

*shrug*

Tankqull

well its pretty easy to "fix" dks. the problem with them is the combination of the most effective class defensive skills + perma blocking enabled by GDB, battle roar and helping hands + more than sufficent dmg.

the last part is the most easy to change part - make lava whip comparable to templars puncturing sweep have a channel time but increase the dmg per skill usage to match its current dps.
=> no dmg mitigation through blocking while dealing dmg.
change searing strike half its innitial dmg but increase its dot dmg to match its current dps
=> still a nice dmg addition but not a substitution for the whip

reflective scales needs a downside. higher magica cost would render it useless for any non fotm build less duration would make the skill more or less useless in the same way.
so either bring back the stat depletion by reflecting an attack lets say 150points depending on the reflected ability either stam or magica.
or add a maximum of reflected abilities per usage i would say sth like 4-6.
or add a maximum of reflected spells per second sth like 1 or 2.
=> not "infinitly" immune to nearly every range attack. (but i would preferr one of the first two options though)

ash cloud compared to its nb/temp counter parts is to strong aswell
70% snare + 30% fumble for 15 sec + either dot dmg (ulti gain again^^) or 2 sec disorient. [at least as long as defensive puddles grant the defensive effects vs attackers outside of it while the defensiv reciever still stands in it - see 60% dmg decrease of NB in veil of blades etc]
half the snare effect and lower the duration to 10sec would be an ok situation compared to templars option (nbs need an overhaul of their abilty anyway)