AoE Cap Removal

frozywozy

Yay

#Remove AOE Cap

I don't care if you nerf damage and make DKs even more worthless. It will still be better than 7k ping, doors not working, weapon swap not working, /sitchair during aoe fights on flags during 15mins.

Btw I'm aware and have read everything regarding LoS checks being the main cause of server calculations and that some of them should be removed in the future. Aoe CAP remains a major problem and would help a ton the server performances.

aco5712

Yay

frozywozy wrote: »

#Remove AOE Cap

I don't care if you nerf damage and make DKs even more worthless. It will still be better than 7k ping, doors not working, weapon swap not working, /sitchair during aoe fights on flags during 15mins.

Btw I'm aware and have read everything regarding LoS checks being the main cause of server calculations and that some of them should be removed in the future. Aoe CAP remains a major problem and would help a ton the server performances.

from what i have seen on PTS, the LOS isnt going to help unless the PTS servers are legit like 2% of the power of live lol.

hammayolettuce

Yay

As @aco5712 said, LOS check change isnt going to help anything. Inside the IC there is massive lag with 16v16. what is going to happen when its the full population?

Just remove the AOE caps and give it test.

Jules

Yay

hammayolettuce wrote: »

As @aco5712 said, LOS check change isnt going to help anything. Inside the IC there is massive lag with 16v16. what is going to happen when its the full population?

Just remove the AOE caps and give it test.

Agreed. I think at this point we're drifting into YOLO territory. Just try whatever the F and see if it works. We're at a point where we can acknowledge that this current set up is definitely failing us. Removing AOE caps, though scary sounding, just might solve the lag problem. If we can mitigate the damage/Demi god problem removing them might create, this game might actually be playable.

Also im pretty sure this is Snu. And if it is- grace us in TS with your presence moar plox!!!
If it's not, this is awkward and have a nice day.

aco5712

Yay

Jules wrote: »

hammayolettuce wrote: »

As @aco5712 said, LOS check change isnt going to help anything. Inside the IC there is massive lag with 16v16. what is going to happen when its the full population?

Just remove the AOE caps and give it test.

Agreed. I think at this point we're drifting into YOLO territory. Just try whatever the F and see if it works. We're at a point where we can acknowledge that this current set up is definitely failing us. Removing AOE caps, though scary sounding, just might solve the lag problem. If we can mitigate the damage/Demi god problem removing them might create, this game might actually be playable.

Also im pretty sure this is Snu. And if it is- grace us in TS with your presence moar plox!!!
If it's not, this is awkward and have a nice day.

@Jules yeh thats snu :P and yes we need to start doing drastic stuff because your player base is just going to grow smaller with the lag <- FACT

Blackhorne

Nay

AoE caps should be removed if and only if they find a way to implement player collision.

But player collision brings with it unlimited options for griefing. Imagine going to complete a quest only to find you can't talk to the questgiver because another player has decided to stand in the doorway of the tower the questgiver is in, and you can't get by. Imagine also the line at the bank!

So player collision is out because of players. That leaves caps (or diminishing returns, but they're simply a more complex form of caps.)

Blackhorne

Nay

frozywozy wrote: »

Aoe CAP remains a major problem and would help a ton the server performances.

I'm not so sure about that. If properly implemented, AoE caps would actually be more efficient than uncapped AoE. Fewer objects to select + fewer calculations to make == faster server response.

FENGRUSH

Yay

Blackhorne wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Aoe CAP remains a major problem and would help a ton the server performances.

I'm not so sure about that. If properly implemented, AoE caps would actually be more efficient than uncapped AoE. Fewer objects to select + fewer calculations to make == faster server response.

Do you understand that currently up to 64 players are hit so the calculations are there regardless - players are just not dying in a timely fashion and fights go on forever with heals and barriers creating a huge issue???????? I think the answer is, 'no.'

Burnworthy

Yay

Whatever, if it fixes lag I'm all for it.

frozywozy

Yay

Also, if you're part of a 25men group who spam aoes on top of each other (like I used to do for a long time before when server performances would tolerate it) and still think that you're doing fine and not deteriorating the server at all like that group of blues running around inner keeps and stacking inside keep towers for 15-20mins straight while the server maintains a constant 6-7k ping, it is time that you realize that you are a major part of the problem.

I'm not saying that people running 25men groups should stop running a 25men group using aoes. But when they get into a fight and the latency suddenly peaks to the point that almost no abilities or weapon swaps register anymore, it is time for your group to leave and to go some place else. Not 15, 20, 30mins later. You cannot cast, health bars aren't going down? That means that the fight you're participating in is lagging the whole campaign and until they find a way to fix the aoe spam (by removing aoe cap or some of the los checks), please use your judgement and stop stacking for 15 minutes straight two 25men raids on top of each other when nothing is registering, ty.

RinaldoGandolphi

The AOE cap has nothing to do with the performance issues in Cyrodiil, Paul Sage even told us this.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/157157/update-on-cyrodiil-performance/p1

Hello everyone,

Our Cyrodiil performance is something we are very aware of. Performance drags when there are numerous players in the same place at the same time. This is why performance in Cyrodiil is fine for much of the day, but gets worse during more popular times. We are currently investigating ways in which we can reduce the spike of performance loss. We added in some features for Update 6 which we hoped would help, but ultimately did not. This is not a situation where we can just add more hardware. Player population in a given area hurts the performance and the more people that are in one area, the more performance is going to be hurt.

Actively, we are looking at changing the behavior of the players to remove incentives for large groups to stay in the same area. We want to do this by providing larger incentives for Alliances to split up and take on multiple-challenges in Cyrodiil. We’ll continue to work on this. We are also asked by players if there is anything they can do to help. In this situation, the best thing you can do is split off to different objectives when you notice performance going down. Cyrodiil is a big place with lots of different things to do. And thank you for asking. - Paul Sage- Creative Director Elder Scrolls Online (Left the company after console launch)

Paul Sage told us flat out that the issue is the "Client and Server Software scales poorly with the more players that enter an area" It doesn't really matter what skills you use because the poor scaling, and such starts happening the minute a bunch of people end up in one place, the firing of abilities such as Meteor is just the icing on the cake showing the whole world the scaling issues the server software actually has just become noticeable then.

I can tell when a large zerg is coming a good minute or 2 before i ever see them as the lag starts then, my ping goes from in the 80's into 110-120, i know a zerg is close by even if they are all in stealth...case in point...the firing of abilities just brings the server and client scaling issues to the forefront, and the hens come to roost.

I really hope they can fix this someday.

frozywozy

Yay

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

The AOE cap has nothing to do with the performance issues in Cyrodiil, Paul Sage even told us this.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/157157/update-on-cyrodiil-performance/p1

Hello everyone,

Our Cyrodiil performance is something we are very aware of. Performance drags when there are numerous players in the same place at the same time. This is why performance in Cyrodiil is fine for much of the day, but gets worse during more popular times. We are currently investigating ways in which we can reduce the spike of performance loss. We added in some features for Update 6 which we hoped would help, but ultimately did not. This is not a situation where we can just add more hardware. Player population in a given area hurts the performance and the more people that are in one area, the more performance is going to be hurt.

Actively, we are looking at changing the behavior of the players to remove incentives for large groups to stay in the same area. We want to do this by providing larger incentives for Alliances to split up and take on multiple-challenges in Cyrodiil. We’ll continue to work on this. We are also asked by players if there is anything they can do to help. In this situation, the best thing you can do is split off to different objectives when you notice performance going down. Cyrodiil is a big place with lots of different things to do. And thank you for asking. - Paul Sage- Creative Director Elder Scrolls Online (Left the company after console launch)

Paul Sage told us flat out that the issue is the "Client and Server Software scales poorly with the more players that enter an area" It doesn't really matter what skills you use because the poor scaling, and such starts happening the minute a bunch of people end up in one place, the firing of abilities such as Meteor is just the icing on the cake showing the whole world the scaling issues the server software actually has just become noticeable then.

I can tell when a large zerg is coming a good minute or 2 before i ever see them as the lag starts then, my ping goes from in the 80's into 110-120, i know a zerg is close by even if they are all in stealth...case in point...the firing of abilities just brings the server and client scaling issues to the forefront, and the hens come to roost.

I really hope they can fix this someday.

I'm sorry to announce you that you misinterpreted what Paul Sage tried to say there.

Player population in a given area hurts the performance and the more people that are in one area, the more performance is going to be hurt.

When he says the last sentence, he doesn't mean to say that at some point, when too many people are in a certain area the ping will get worse. Actually it is the other way around. Framerates will get worse when too many players are in the same area. But when those players start requesting too many calculations on the server such as dealing damage, healing, etc, then the overall ping in the whole campaign start spiking up.

The only reason why he said "the more people that are in one area, the more performance is going to be hurt" is because he didn't want to go into more details and talk about stacking very close on top of each other while dealing aoe damage and heals.

In other words, let say that we put 50 EP, 50 DC and 50 AD running around Bleakers but not pressing any ability and not sieging the wall. Simply running around stacking or not. There would be no reason to get a bad latency. If you do, it is an ISP problem on your side. Only framerates would be bad if you play at ultra with shadows maxed and ambient occlusion on.

Takllin

Yay

frozywozy wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

The AOE cap has nothing to do with the performance issues in Cyrodiil, Paul Sage even told us this.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/157157/update-on-cyrodiil-performance/p1

Hello everyone,

Our Cyrodiil performance is something we are very aware of. Performance drags when there are numerous players in the same place at the same time. This is why performance in Cyrodiil is fine for much of the day, but gets worse during more popular times. We are currently investigating ways in which we can reduce the spike of performance loss. We added in some features for Update 6 which we hoped would help, but ultimately did not. This is not a situation where we can just add more hardware. Player population in a given area hurts the performance and the more people that are in one area, the more performance is going to be hurt.

Actively, we are looking at changing the behavior of the players to remove incentives for large groups to stay in the same area. We want to do this by providing larger incentives for Alliances to split up and take on multiple-challenges in Cyrodiil. We’ll continue to work on this. We are also asked by players if there is anything they can do to help. In this situation, the best thing you can do is split off to different objectives when you notice performance going down. Cyrodiil is a big place with lots of different things to do. And thank you for asking. - Paul Sage- Creative Director Elder Scrolls Online (Left the company after console launch)

Paul Sage told us flat out that the issue is the "Client and Server Software scales poorly with the more players that enter an area" It doesn't really matter what skills you use because the poor scaling, and such starts happening the minute a bunch of people end up in one place, the firing of abilities such as Meteor is just the icing on the cake showing the whole world the scaling issues the server software actually has just become noticeable then.

I can tell when a large zerg is coming a good minute or 2 before i ever see them as the lag starts then, my ping goes from in the 80's into 110-120, i know a zerg is close by even if they are all in stealth...case in point...the firing of abilities just brings the server and client scaling issues to the forefront, and the hens come to roost.

I really hope they can fix this someday.

I'm sorry to announce you that you misinterpreted what Paul Sage tried to say there.

Player population in a given area hurts the performance and the more people that are in one area, the more performance is going to be hurt.

When he says the last sentence, he doesn't mean to say that at some point, when too many people are in a certain area the ping will get worse. Actually it is the other way around. Framerates will get worse when too many players are in the same area. But when those players start requesting too many calculations on the server such as dealing damage, healing, etc, then the overall ping in the whole campaign start spiking up.

The only reason why he said "the more people that are in one area, the more performance is going to be hurt" is because he didn't want to go into more details and talk about stacking very close on top of each other while dealing aoe damage and heals.

In other words, let say that we put 50 EP, 50 DC and 50 AD running around Bleakers but not pressing any ability and not sieging the wall. Simply running around stacking or not. There would be no reason to get a bad latency. If you do, it is an ISP problem on your side. Only framerates would be bad if you play at ultra with shadows maxed and ambient occlusion on.

I agree with what Frozn said.

Also, they've directly stated that the ping comes from too many calculations being done on the server side, which is why they are reducing the LoS checks...so I fail to see how you can just dismiss AoE caps being the issue when the lag got WORSE when they introduced them, and they put a lot more calculations into the server than we had before...

ToRelax

Yay

Takllin wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

The AOE cap has nothing to do with the performance issues in Cyrodiil, Paul Sage even told us this.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/157157/update-on-cyrodiil-performance/p1

Hello everyone,

Our Cyrodiil performance is something we are very aware of. Performance drags when there are numerous players in the same place at the same time. This is why performance in Cyrodiil is fine for much of the day, but gets worse during more popular times. We are currently investigating ways in which we can reduce the spike of performance loss. We added in some features for Update 6 which we hoped would help, but ultimately did not. This is not a situation where we can just add more hardware. Player population in a given area hurts the performance and the more people that are in one area, the more performance is going to be hurt.

Actively, we are looking at changing the behavior of the players to remove incentives for large groups to stay in the same area. We want to do this by providing larger incentives for Alliances to split up and take on multiple-challenges in Cyrodiil. We’ll continue to work on this. We are also asked by players if there is anything they can do to help. In this situation, the best thing you can do is split off to different objectives when you notice performance going down. Cyrodiil is a big place with lots of different things to do. And thank you for asking. - Paul Sage- Creative Director Elder Scrolls Online (Left the company after console launch)

Paul Sage told us flat out that the issue is the "Client and Server Software scales poorly with the more players that enter an area" It doesn't really matter what skills you use because the poor scaling, and such starts happening the minute a bunch of people end up in one place, the firing of abilities such as Meteor is just the icing on the cake showing the whole world the scaling issues the server software actually has just become noticeable then.

I can tell when a large zerg is coming a good minute or 2 before i ever see them as the lag starts then, my ping goes from in the 80's into 110-120, i know a zerg is close by even if they are all in stealth...case in point...the firing of abilities just brings the server and client scaling issues to the forefront, and the hens come to roost.

I really hope they can fix this someday.

I'm sorry to announce you that you misinterpreted what Paul Sage tried to say there.

Player population in a given area hurts the performance and the more people that are in one area, the more performance is going to be hurt.

When he says the last sentence, he doesn't mean to say that at some point, when too many people are in a certain area the ping will get worse. Actually it is the other way around. Framerates will get worse when too many players are in the same area. But when those players start requesting too many calculations on the server such as dealing damage, healing, etc, then the overall ping in the whole campaign start spiking up.

The only reason why he said "the more people that are in one area, the more performance is going to be hurt" is because he didn't want to go into more details and talk about stacking very close on top of each other while dealing aoe damage and heals.

In other words, let say that we put 50 EP, 50 DC and 50 AD running around Bleakers but not pressing any ability and not sieging the wall. Simply running around stacking or not. There would be no reason to get a bad latency. If you do, it is an ISP problem on your side. Only framerates would be bad if you play at ultra with shadows maxed and ambient occlusion on.

I agree with what Frozn said.

Also, they've directly stated that the ping comes from too many calculations being done on the server side, which is why they are reducing the LoS checks...so I fail to see how you can just dismiss AoE caps being the issue when the lag got WORSE when they introduced them, and they put a lot more calculations into the server than we had before...

Wait... lag got worse when they introduced AoE caps? How long have you been playing?

Takllin

Yay

ToRelax wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

The AOE cap has nothing to do with the performance issues in Cyrodiil, Paul Sage even told us this.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/157157/update-on-cyrodiil-performance/p1

Hello everyone,

Our Cyrodiil performance is something we are very aware of. Performance drags when there are numerous players in the same place at the same time. This is why performance in Cyrodiil is fine for much of the day, but gets worse during more popular times. We are currently investigating ways in which we can reduce the spike of performance loss. We added in some features for Update 6 which we hoped would help, but ultimately did not. This is not a situation where we can just add more hardware. Player population in a given area hurts the performance and the more people that are in one area, the more performance is going to be hurt.

Actively, we are looking at changing the behavior of the players to remove incentives for large groups to stay in the same area. We want to do this by providing larger incentives for Alliances to split up and take on multiple-challenges in Cyrodiil. We’ll continue to work on this. We are also asked by players if there is anything they can do to help. In this situation, the best thing you can do is split off to different objectives when you notice performance going down. Cyrodiil is a big place with lots of different things to do. And thank you for asking. - Paul Sage- Creative Director Elder Scrolls Online (Left the company after console launch)

Paul Sage told us flat out that the issue is the "Client and Server Software scales poorly with the more players that enter an area" It doesn't really matter what skills you use because the poor scaling, and such starts happening the minute a bunch of people end up in one place, the firing of abilities such as Meteor is just the icing on the cake showing the whole world the scaling issues the server software actually has just become noticeable then.

I can tell when a large zerg is coming a good minute or 2 before i ever see them as the lag starts then, my ping goes from in the 80's into 110-120, i know a zerg is close by even if they are all in stealth...case in point...the firing of abilities just brings the server and client scaling issues to the forefront, and the hens come to roost.

I really hope they can fix this someday.

I'm sorry to announce you that you misinterpreted what Paul Sage tried to say there.

Player population in a given area hurts the performance and the more people that are in one area, the more performance is going to be hurt.

When he says the last sentence, he doesn't mean to say that at some point, when too many people are in a certain area the ping will get worse. Actually it is the other way around. Framerates will get worse when too many players are in the same area. But when those players start requesting too many calculations on the server such as dealing damage, healing, etc, then the overall ping in the whole campaign start spiking up.

The only reason why he said "the more people that are in one area, the more performance is going to be hurt" is because he didn't want to go into more details and talk about stacking very close on top of each other while dealing aoe damage and heals.

In other words, let say that we put 50 EP, 50 DC and 50 AD running around Bleakers but not pressing any ability and not sieging the wall. Simply running around stacking or not. There would be no reason to get a bad latency. If you do, it is an ISP problem on your side. Only framerates would be bad if you play at ultra with shadows maxed and ambient occlusion on.

I agree with what Frozn said.

Also, they've directly stated that the ping comes from too many calculations being done on the server side, which is why they are reducing the LoS checks...so I fail to see how you can just dismiss AoE caps being the issue when the lag got WORSE when they introduced them, and they put a lot more calculations into the server than we had before...

Wait... lag got worse when they introduced AoE caps? How long have you been playing?

Since launch...

I'm talking about this 100% to the first 6 people, 75% or whatever amount it is to the next X, etc.

You can't possibly say the lag got better in 1.6....

aco5712

Yay

Takllin wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

The AOE cap has nothing to do with the performance issues in Cyrodiil, Paul Sage even told us this.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/157157/update-on-cyrodiil-performance/p1

Hello everyone,

Our Cyrodiil performance is something we are very aware of. Performance drags when there are numerous players in the same place at the same time. This is why performance in Cyrodiil is fine for much of the day, but gets worse during more popular times. We are currently investigating ways in which we can reduce the spike of performance loss. We added in some features for Update 6 which we hoped would help, but ultimately did not. This is not a situation where we can just add more hardware. Player population in a given area hurts the performance and the more people that are in one area, the more performance is going to be hurt.

Actively, we are looking at changing the behavior of the players to remove incentives for large groups to stay in the same area. We want to do this by providing larger incentives for Alliances to split up and take on multiple-challenges in Cyrodiil. We’ll continue to work on this. We are also asked by players if there is anything they can do to help. In this situation, the best thing you can do is split off to different objectives when you notice performance going down. Cyrodiil is a big place with lots of different things to do. And thank you for asking. - Paul Sage- Creative Director Elder Scrolls Online (Left the company after console launch)

Paul Sage told us flat out that the issue is the "Client and Server Software scales poorly with the more players that enter an area" It doesn't really matter what skills you use because the poor scaling, and such starts happening the minute a bunch of people end up in one place, the firing of abilities such as Meteor is just the icing on the cake showing the whole world the scaling issues the server software actually has just become noticeable then.

I can tell when a large zerg is coming a good minute or 2 before i ever see them as the lag starts then, my ping goes from in the 80's into 110-120, i know a zerg is close by even if they are all in stealth...case in point...the firing of abilities just brings the server and client scaling issues to the forefront, and the hens come to roost.

I really hope they can fix this someday.

I'm sorry to announce you that you misinterpreted what Paul Sage tried to say there.

Player population in a given area hurts the performance and the more people that are in one area, the more performance is going to be hurt.

When he says the last sentence, he doesn't mean to say that at some point, when too many people are in a certain area the ping will get worse. Actually it is the other way around. Framerates will get worse when too many players are in the same area. But when those players start requesting too many calculations on the server such as dealing damage, healing, etc, then the overall ping in the whole campaign start spiking up.

The only reason why he said "the more people that are in one area, the more performance is going to be hurt" is because he didn't want to go into more details and talk about stacking very close on top of each other while dealing aoe damage and heals.

In other words, let say that we put 50 EP, 50 DC and 50 AD running around Bleakers but not pressing any ability and not sieging the wall. Simply running around stacking or not. There would be no reason to get a bad latency. If you do, it is an ISP problem on your side. Only framerates would be bad if you play at ultra with shadows maxed and ambient occlusion on.

I agree with what Frozn said.

Also, they've directly stated that the ping comes from too many calculations being done on the server side, which is why they are reducing the LoS checks...so I fail to see how you can just dismiss AoE caps being the issue when the lag got WORSE when they introduced them, and they put a lot more calculations into the server than we had before...

Wait... lag got worse when they introduced AoE caps? How long have you been playing?

Since launch...

I'm talking about this 100% to the first 6 people, 75% or whatever amount it is to the next X, etc.

You can't possibly say the lag got better in 1.6....

Yeh that was a ill thought out move on their part. Why cap it at 60 people when you cant fight 20v20...?

Dyride

Yay

Lag battles have been a feature since the bot dices that came with 1.3. There may be some correlation to increased lag in 1.6 but I think the only thing that has changed is battles on one side of the map are more likely to affect other areas.

I think they should keep the 6 person cap on CC and effects but extend full damage up to 36 targets then nothing after that. Then even a full raid+ pugs can be hit.

Darlgon

Blackhorne wrote: »

AoE caps should be removed if and only if they find a way to implement player collision.

But player collision brings with it unlimited options for griefing. Imagine going to complete a quest only to find you can't talk to the questgiver because another player has decided to stand in the doorway of the tower the questgiver is in, and you can't get by. Imagine also the line at the bank!

So player collision is out because of players. That leaves caps (or diminishing returns, but they're simply a more complex form of caps.)

Not sure about how hard to code, but... you know how you ALWAYS have to zone to enter Cyrodiil? and how they use the Battle Spirit buff? How about add player collision to that buff? That way, its only in Cyro and PVErs (well except in IC) wont be affected. But, yeah.. I remember being griefed just like that in a number of other games.. those players got a /report. Somehow, never saw them doing that again.

aco5712

Yay

Darlgon wrote: »

Blackhorne wrote: »

AoE caps should be removed if and only if they find a way to implement player collision.

But player collision brings with it unlimited options for griefing. Imagine going to complete a quest only to find you can't talk to the questgiver because another player has decided to stand in the doorway of the tower the questgiver is in, and you can't get by. Imagine also the line at the bank!

So player collision is out because of players. That leaves caps (or diminishing returns, but they're simply a more complex form of caps.)

Not sure about how hard to code, but... you know how you ALWAYS have to zone to enter Cyrodiil? and how they use the Battle Spirit buff? How about add player collision to that buff? That way, its only in Cyro and PVErs (well except in IC) wont be affected. But, yeah.. I remember being griefed just like that in a number of other games.. those players got a /report. Somehow, never saw them doing that again.

they cant actually add the collision in this game for players. They werent going to have NPC collision either but in beta they got so many requests for it that they added it in. However, they said that in pvp this would be too much stress on the physics engine so they wont implement it there.

RinaldoGandolphi

frozywozy wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

The AOE cap has nothing to do with the performance issues in Cyrodiil, Paul Sage even told us this.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/157157/update-on-cyrodiil-performance/p1

Hello everyone,

Our Cyrodiil performance is something we are very aware of. Performance drags when there are numerous players in the same place at the same time. This is why performance in Cyrodiil is fine for much of the day, but gets worse during more popular times. We are currently investigating ways in which we can reduce the spike of performance loss. We added in some features for Update 6 which we hoped would help, but ultimately did not. This is not a situation where we can just add more hardware. Player population in a given area hurts the performance and the more people that are in one area, the more performance is going to be hurt.

Actively, we are looking at changing the behavior of the players to remove incentives for large groups to stay in the same area. We want to do this by providing larger incentives for Alliances to split up and take on multiple-challenges in Cyrodiil. We’ll continue to work on this. We are also asked by players if there is anything they can do to help. In this situation, the best thing you can do is split off to different objectives when you notice performance going down. Cyrodiil is a big place with lots of different things to do. And thank you for asking. - Paul Sage- Creative Director Elder Scrolls Online (Left the company after console launch)

Paul Sage told us flat out that the issue is the "Client and Server Software scales poorly with the more players that enter an area" It doesn't really matter what skills you use because the poor scaling, and such starts happening the minute a bunch of people end up in one place, the firing of abilities such as Meteor is just the icing on the cake showing the whole world the scaling issues the server software actually has just become noticeable then.

I can tell when a large zerg is coming a good minute or 2 before i ever see them as the lag starts then, my ping goes from in the 80's into 110-120, i know a zerg is close by even if they are all in stealth...case in point...the firing of abilities just brings the server and client scaling issues to the forefront, and the hens come to roost.

I really hope they can fix this someday.

I'm sorry to announce you that you misinterpreted what Paul Sage tried to say there.

Player population in a given area hurts the performance and the more people that are in one area, the more performance is going to be hurt.

When he says the last sentence, he doesn't mean to say that at some point, when too many people are in a certain area the ping will get worse. Actually it is the other way around. Framerates will get worse when too many players are in the same area. But when those players start requesting too many calculations on the server such as dealing damage, healing, etc, then the overall ping in the whole campaign start spiking up.

The only reason why he said "the more people that are in one area, the more performance is going to be hurt" is because he didn't want to go into more details and talk about stacking very close on top of each other while dealing aoe damage and heals.

In other words, let say that we put 50 EP, 50 DC and 50 AD running around Bleakers but not pressing any ability and not sieging the wall. Simply running around stacking or not. There would be no reason to get a bad latency. If you do, it is an ISP problem on your side. Only framerates would be bad if you play at ultra with shadows maxed and ambient occlusion on.

Yes, the frame rate will get worse with more players in the area, because its not only the server software that scales poorly, the client software scales poorly as well.


The game client itself is just so buggy,

I have been a long time feedback person on the AMD Beta driver program, and AMD has yet to release a Crossfire profile for ESO, in my numerous feedback attempts inquiring about one. i was pretty much political correctly told they were not going to bother with it because game engine scales so poorly it would be pointless to release a Crossfire profile for the game. Nvidia came to the same conclusion and released a standard AFR SLI profile and gave up on it. As Nvidia came to the conclusion the game was not properly optimized and too CPU bound to scale correctly in SLI, and AMD is pretty much in agreement and didn't even bother to release an official Crossfire profile.

https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/749866/sli/elder-scrolls-online-sli-profile-released-feedback-requested/2/

its very easy in ESO to create conditions where FPS loss and drops can be seen even outside of Cyrodiil, client crashes, disconnects, lag, etc are all common complaints in the 12 man PVE raids, and sometimes even in dungeons. these all vary with client hardware.

Even so, i say go ahead and remove the AOE cap, it can't possibly make things any worse at this point, i don't see how it could hurt anything to try it, i have my doubts it will make up for very poor scaling, but its a worth a shot, even if it makes things 30% better that would be a marked improvement from where we are now.

Rune_Relic

Nay

Takllin wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Remove it. Give everyone an incentive to spread out and spend a little bit more time being aware of their position. Give small man/solo players some ammunition against large groups, and simultaneously reduce the calculations needed on server.

Large organized groups will adapt. They will need to learn to spread/recondense/survive independently for some time, or they will die horrible miserable deaths over and over.

It will only reduce the lag on the server if you wipe everyone.
Nothing stopping you hitting 100s of people in one spot that never die unless your AoE can one shot people.
Then you have just increased all the damage calcs mitigations/dots/purges/aoe/heals instead and made the lag even worse.

You want to fix the lag you reduce all of the AoE related calcs... and not by Gods one shotting people.
That just makes player gods.

Of course if there was player collision you would force people outside heal/purge radius and reduce the calcs by default.
You could make it an impossibility for any more than 6 people to fit within a heal purge radius.
But that causes lag doesn't it and people would rather have that then griefed

Like ZOS petty much lost control of resource generation on Hits with 50 man AoE.. they have lost control of the damage calcs in large battles.
Lag will never be fixed until they get control back.

This removes some lag because it removes the calculation of who gets what % of damage based on where they are relative to the person using the AoE ability that is hitting them.

what difference does removing 1 instruction branch make when you can now have 100+ people ^n damage calcs all going off at once (with dots accumulating on top of that every 0.5 seconds)?

There is nothing stopping a whole faction standing in one spot.
You think you will wipe them ?

I am sorry but we already see the results of going from 6 man caps to 50 man caps.
Lag went from bad to absolutely horrendous and meant we cut campaign populations to a fraction of what they use to be to compensate and still wasn't back to anywhere near the performance of the 6 man caps.

this is insanity.

Hell...do it. I want to cyrodiil just freeze solid with 100 player per campaign.
Then I can laugh for a while..then cry....like last time.

jrkhan

Rune_Relic wrote: »

what difference does removing 1 instruction branch make when you can now have 100+ people ^n damage calcs all going off at once (with dots accumulating on top of that every 0.5 seconds)?

There is nothing stopping a whole faction standing in one spot.
You think you will wipe them ?

I am sorry but we already see the results of going from 6 man caps to 50 man caps.
Lag went from bad to absolutely horrendous and meant we cut campaign populations to a fraction of what they use to be to compensate and still wasn't back to anywhere near the performance of the 6 man caps.

this is insanity.

Hell...do it. I want to cyrodiil just freeze solid with 100 player per campaign.
Then I can laugh for a while..then cry....like last time.

It's currently a 60 man cap. The idea is to have all 60 players take full damage instead of 50% 25%
This doesn't add to n.

The idea is, if you have stacked groups dying faster (which, probably won't happen anyway given we're all taking 38% less damage next patch than on live) then n goes down faster. (Assuming corpses don't factor in to the calculation)

The point if contention is: will stacked groups take enough damage such that stacking is no longer the predominate group strategy.

In addition to full damage on 60 players,
I'd like to see 'battle spirit' have variable effects depending on the number of nearby players - I realize it would be an additional calculation, but it could really help reduce stacking (encouraging n to go down)
50% damage reduction from players, but damage received increases by 5% for each player within 12 meters.

Takllin

Yay

jrkhan wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

what difference does removing 1 instruction branch make when you can now have 100+ people ^n damage calcs all going off at once (with dots accumulating on top of that every 0.5 seconds)?

There is nothing stopping a whole faction standing in one spot.
You think you will wipe them ?

I am sorry but we already see the results of going from 6 man caps to 50 man caps.
Lag went from bad to absolutely horrendous and meant we cut campaign populations to a fraction of what they use to be to compensate and still wasn't back to anywhere near the performance of the 6 man caps.

this is insanity.

Hell...do it. I want to cyrodiil just freeze solid with 100 player per campaign.
Then I can laugh for a while..then cry....like last time.

It's currently a 60 man cap. The idea is to have all 60 players take full damage instead of 50% 25%
This doesn't add to n.

The idea is, if you have stacked groups dying faster (which, probably won't happen anyway given we're all taking 38% less damage next patch than on live) then n goes down faster. (Assuming corpses don't factor in to the calculation)

The point if contention is: will stacked groups take enough damage such that stacking is no longer the predominate group strategy.

In addition to full damage on 60 players,
I'd like to see 'battle spirit' have variable effects depending on the number of nearby players - I realize it would be an additional calculation, but it could really help reduce stacking (encouraging n to go down)
50% damage reduction from players, but damage received increases by 5% for each player within 12 meters.

@Rune_Relic this person here, understands my point.

Rune_Relic

Nay

Takllin wrote: »

jrkhan wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

what difference does removing 1 instruction branch make when you can now have 100+ people ^n damage calcs all going off at once (with dots accumulating on top of that every 0.5 seconds)?

There is nothing stopping a whole faction standing in one spot.
You think you will wipe them ?

I am sorry but we already see the results of going from 6 man caps to 50 man caps.
Lag went from bad to absolutely horrendous and meant we cut campaign populations to a fraction of what they use to be to compensate and still wasn't back to anywhere near the performance of the 6 man caps.

this is insanity.

Hell...do it. I want to cyrodiil just freeze solid with 100 player per campaign.
Then I can laugh for a while..then cry....like last time.

It's currently a 60 man cap. The idea is to have all 60 players take full damage instead of 50% 25%
This doesn't add to n.

The idea is, if you have stacked groups dying faster (which, probably won't happen anyway given we're all taking 38% less damage next patch than on live) then n goes down faster. (Assuming corpses don't factor in to the calculation)

The point if contention is: will stacked groups take enough damage such that stacking is no longer the predominate group strategy.

In addition to full damage on 60 players,
I'd like to see 'battle spirit' have variable effects depending on the number of nearby players - I realize it would be an additional calculation, but it could really help reduce stacking (encouraging n to go down)
50% damage reduction from players, but damage received increases by 5% for each player within 12 meters.

@Rune_Relic this person here, understands my point.

OK ..see what you mean now.
I thought you meant unlimited caps.
Still doenst really help in the greater scheme of thins IMHO as 60 people are still taking old damage + new damage + dots/hots perpetually/exponentially stacking too, without even factoring in all the buff tracking.
Regardless, it doesnt help if you don't one shot them.

Anyway....what do you think of this idea...instead ?
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/comment/2168807/#Comment_2168807

Rune_Relic

Nay

Actually just had another thought.
Dots and Hots.
Do they stack from multiple sources or simply refresh like buffs ?

We could be able to remove a ton of damage calcs if there is only ever 1 dot hot active on me rather than unlimited.
Increase the damage they do if necessary.
How do you poison someone that is already poisoned ?
How do you disease someone that is already diseased ?
How do you burn someone that is already burning ?

If I have 10 players with dots/hots that are active upon me....thats a lot of damage tracking that could be dropped.

Mr_Nobody

Yay

I voted yay but you dont need that, all you need is 1 thing to counter it all:

Remove or rework Purge.

4 People dedicated on spamming purge in a blob group make them invincible to basically everything but another same-kind-of group. Make it a self only and add heals or whatever other effect to pay for aoe removal, or make people to click X to use it.

It is op.

Nijjion

Yay

This was 15 years ago

Hardly to no lag with groups Vs zerg with NO AOE caps.

(21m:30s)
https://youtu.be/g2W4VpZQ19s?t=21m30s

(1m:47s)
https://youtu.be/5jegG4834Cg?t=1m49s

(32s)
https://youtu.be/-BxyNKATs2s?t=34s
(Even more crazier/bigger bombs later on)

Mr_Nobody

Yay

Nijjion wrote: »

This was 15 years ago

Hardly to no lag with groups Vs zerg with NO AOE caps.

(Even more crazier/bigger bombs later on)

Beth bomb grps had some crazy footage also. So sad ESO proposes zerg-stacking grouping over small organized bomb grps to deny them.

Nijjion

Yay

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Beth bomb grps had some crazy footage also. So sad ESO proposes zerg-stacking grouping over small organized bomb grps to deny them.

Guild Wars 2 is where the birth of caps come from in an RvR environment and the 'turtle stacking groups' was created... ESO has seen nothing compared to what they're doing in GW2. Some strict stuff on stacking some zerg groups have.

Mr_Nobody

Yay

Nijjion wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Beth bomb grps had some crazy footage also. So sad ESO proposes zerg-stacking grouping over small organized bomb grps to deny them.

Guild Wars 2 is where the birth of caps come from in an RvR environment and the 'turtle stacking groups' was created... ESO has seen nothing compared to what they're doing in GW2. Some strict stuff on stacking some zerg groups have.

Should spam PTS Section with threads to rework and/or remove purge. We still got some time left.