Let's clear up the whole stealth speed issue w/ vampires. HARD DATA and actual testing inside.

Attorneyatlawl

So I tested this both on 1.3 pts and 1.3.4 live recently to ensure nothing had changed, and posted it on my guild's forums a good while back. However I am seeing a lot of confusion and incorrect claims without testing as to vampire nightblades outrunning sprinting mounts, or night's silence letting you outrun a normal mount by a significant amount, as well as numerous other pieces of misinformation. I've decided to just make this thread and clear things up for people with some actual testing, raw data, and a mechanics explanation.

Attorneyatlawl from the Mostly Harmless forums thread about nights silence wrote:

ups = units per second
~150ups stealthed (non-vampire)
~185-190ups concealed weapon (non-vampire)
250ups base run speed and vampire stealth (removes penalty)
~320ups concealed weapon + vamp
~450ups 75% speed horse
~465ups concealed weapon + vamp + night's silence
~510ups 75% speed horse sprinting

The "steed" mundus stone adds 5% of your current ups speed stealthed/mounted/unstealthed.

So no, a concealed weap vampire with night's silence CANNOT under ANY circumstances outrun a sprinting mount, as some here claim. Nor can you outrun a 75% horse not sprinting by very much at all.

The mechanics are explained next to the speeds above in the quote but to make it clear:

-Stealth normally reduces your speed to 60% of normal.
-Concealed weapons and other movement bonuses like night's silence multiply your normal stealth speed directly.
-Vampire removes the normal penalty to stealth speed, making it into normal run speed at 250 units per second.
-Combining vampire passive or the Shadow Dancer set that removes the penalty + any other movement speed results in the multiplication happening off of the base run speed number of 250.
-If you are using a non-vampire character without a set removing the penalty, all bonuses are multiplied off of the normal 150 units per second movement number.

I'm not trying to make an assertion in the OP here as to whether this is balanced, imbalanced, or otherwise. I am just trying to make sure that when people do, they have all the facts at hand to form their opinion off of.

These numbers are verified by an addon called ravspeed, as well as double-checked by testing alongside another player to ensure the data given was accurate on completely flat terrain as any slope or bump will alter the movement speed in this game due to gravity.

david.haypreub18_ESO

What do you mean by 75% horse? Do you mean the fastest horse in the game?

I think the main issue was with the normal garden variety horse, or one that had not been fed only apples.

Brizz

You know what beats all of those?

....Bolt Escape

EisregenX90

My question is can you see your speed somehow with an add on, or did you just assume the 25% and the 60% is additiv and not multiplicative?
For the last option you would reach 500 ups wich is preaty close to a 75% sprinting horse, wich is far nearer to my subjective view cause i almost never use my horse as for it feels just not faster than my sneaking.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

Brizz wrote: »

You know what beats all of those?

....Bolt Escape

And a Red NB (no names) on EU server that manages to outrun the fastest horse (fed only apples also) in game, while in stealth, and a sorcerer trying to catch him with BE.

GnatB

Can you actually increase your speed by going from run to sneak?

Yes? Logically broken and should be fixed. So what if it isn't quite as fast as the fastest horse. It can still get almost twice as fast as sneakings top speed should be.

qiyamatawilrwb17_ESO

i havnt timed myself but as a vamp i have seen fluctuating speeds be it night or day with dark stalker.
i also wanted to know for certain, is the speed bonus meant to apply only at night anyway? the tooltip could mean only quicker to stealth at night...

"Move faster while sneaking and enter stealth more quickly at night"

Attorneyatlawl

EisregenX90 wrote: »

My question is can you see your speed somehow with an add on, or did you just assume the 25% and the 60% is additiv and not multiplicative?
For the last option you would reach 500 ups wich is preaty close to a 75% sprinting horse, wich is far nearer to my subjective view cause i almost never use my horse as for it feels just not faster than my sneaking.

As stated in the op...

These numbers are verified by an addon called ravspeed, as well as double-checked by testing alongside another player to ensure the data given was accurate on completely flat terrain as any slope or bump will alter the movement speed in this game due to gravity.

Moltier

Lorebook found!

Diary of Sunshine, the horse.

Day 1.
Dear Diary, today an adventurer finally bought me!
Im so excited!
And he fed me with apples! Yummy, i love apples!

Day 2.
We went to slay evils of the worlds! I was afraid a bit and ran away, but it was fun!
And i got more apples! I love apples!

Day 3.
Apples are healthy!

Day 9.
More apples.

Day 25.
I think he dont like me anymore, and bought another horse.

Day 26.
Oats!!! He bought oats! And apples too...
I got the apples.

Day 38.
I hate apples.

Day 49.
Maybe if i stop running faster, he stops feeding me with apples.

Day 55.
It worked, now im starving.

Attorneyatlawl

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

Brizz wrote: »

You know what beats all of those?

....Bolt Escape

And a Red NB (no names) on EU server that manages to outrun the fastest horse (fed only apples also) in game, while in stealth, and a sorcerer trying to catch him with BE.

You can use temporary buffs such as rapid maneuvers, speed potion, etc. in conjunction with any of these numbers listed, which is why I didn't put them in the comparison as you can use them with any of these combinations as well and stuck to listing permanent speed boosts.

crislevin

Brizz wrote: »

You know what beats all of those?

....Bolt Escape

I trust you tried it yourself?

Azraeel

Brizz wrote: »

You know what beats all of those?

....Bolt Escape

You know who seems like butthurt?

....You

onlinegamer1

Great analysis.

Super_Sonico

Someone please just capture it, post it to YouTube and show it here. I've had it happen to me quite often lately. I don't understand how they're doing it and don't really care as it doesn't affect me. But it IS happening (insert Ron Paul here).

Just the other night I was sprinting on my horse to help a guild mate at a boss. Now my horse is not stamina spec'd but inventory spec'd, but someone crouched went by me so fast that it was just kind of stupid. I've seen full stamina horses sprint by mine and they were no where near that fast.

So, someone, please post a video capture of it.

Atarax

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

So I tested this both on 1.3 pts and 1.3.4 live recently to ensure nothing had changed, and posted it on my guild's forums a good while back. However I am seeing a lot of confusion and incorrect claims without testing as to vampire nightblades outrunning sprinting mounts, or night's silence letting you outrun a normal mount by a significant amount, as well as numerous other pieces of misinformation. I've decided to just make this thread and clear things up for people with some actual testing, raw data, and a mechanics explanation.

Thanks for the info @Attorneyatlawl‌

I've created a petition in the feedback forum here that lays the whole discussion out.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/132024/feedback-petition-please-reinstate-nights-silence-dark-stalker-stacking#latest

killedbyping

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

So I tested this both on 1.3 pts and 1.3.4 live recently to ensure nothing had changed, and posted it on my guild's forums a good while back. However I am seeing a lot of confusion and incorrect claims without testing as to vampire nightblades outrunning sprinting mounts, or night's silence letting you outrun a normal mount by a significant amount, as well as numerous other pieces of misinformation. I've decided to just make this thread and clear things up for people with some actual testing, raw data, and a mechanics explanation.

Attorneyatlawl from the Mostly Harmless forums thread about nights silence wrote:

ups = units per second
~150ups stealthed (non-vampire)
~185-190ups concealed weapon (non-vampire)
250ups base run speed and vampire stealth (removes penalty)
~320ups concealed weapon + vamp
~450ups 75% speed horse
~465ups concealed weapon + vamp + night's silence
~510ups 75% speed horse sprinting

The "steed" mundus stone adds 5% of your current ups speed stealthed/mounted/unstealthed.

So no, a concealed weap vampire with night's silence CANNOT under ANY circumstances outrun a sprinting mount, as some here claim. Nor can you outrun a 75% horse not sprinting by very much at all.

The mechanics are explained next to the speeds above in the quote but to make it clear:

-Stealth normally reduces your speed to 60% of normal.
-Concealed weapons and other movement bonuses like night's silence multiply your normal stealth speed directly.
-Vampire removes the normal penalty to stealth speed, making it into normal run speed at 250 units per second.
-Combining vampire passive or the Shadow Dancer set that removes the penalty + any other movement speed results in the multiplication happening off of the base run speed number of 250.
-If you are using a non-vampire character without a set removing the penalty, all bonuses are multiplied off of the normal 150 units per second movement number.

I'm not trying to make an assertion in the OP here as to whether this is balanced, imbalanced, or otherwise. I am just trying to make sure that when people do, they have all the facts at hand to form their opinion off of.

These numbers are verified by an addon called ravspeed, as well as double-checked by testing alongside another player to ensure the data given was accurate on completely flat terrain as any slope or bump will alter the movement speed in this game due to gravity.

Well, those guys might use some kind of bug or hacks or whatever, call it as you like, but i clearly saw some people were outrunning me in stealth while i was sprinting on my max level light horse. I had enought time to witness this since they were in my alliance.

So.... all this testing is good, but reality do not agree with you.

GnatB

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

So I tested this both on 1.3 pts and 1.3.4 live recently to ensure nothing had changed, and posted it on my guild's forums a good while back. However I am seeing a lot of confusion and incorrect claims without testing as to vampire nightblades outrunning sprinting mounts, or night's silence letting you outrun a normal mount by a significant amount, as well as numerous other pieces of misinformation. I've decided to just make this thread and clear things up for people with some actual testing, raw data, and a mechanics explanation.

Attorneyatlawl from the Mostly Harmless forums thread about nights silence wrote:

ups = units per second
~150ups stealthed (non-vampire)
~185-190ups concealed weapon (non-vampire)
250ups base run speed and vampire stealth (removes penalty)
~320ups concealed weapon + vamp
~450ups 75% speed horse
~465ups concealed weapon + vamp + night's silence
~510ups 75% speed horse sprinting

The "steed" mundus stone adds 5% of your current ups speed stealthed/mounted/unstealthed.

So no, a concealed weap vampire with night's silence CANNOT under ANY circumstances outrun a sprinting mount, as some here claim. Nor can you outrun a 75% horse not sprinting by very much at all.

The mechanics are explained next to the speeds above in the quote but to make it clear:

-Stealth normally reduces your speed to 60% of normal.
-Concealed weapons and other movement bonuses like night's silence multiply your normal stealth speed directly.
-Vampire removes the normal penalty to stealth speed, making it into normal run speed at 250 units per second.
-Combining vampire passive or the Shadow Dancer set that removes the penalty + any other movement speed results in the multiplication happening off of the base run speed number of 250.
-If you are using a non-vampire character without a set removing the penalty, all bonuses are multiplied off of the normal 150 units per second movement number.

I'm not trying to make an assertion in the OP here as to whether this is balanced, imbalanced, or otherwise. I am just trying to make sure that when people do, they have all the facts at hand to form their opinion off of.

These numbers are verified by an addon called ravspeed, as well as double-checked by testing alongside another player to ensure the data given was accurate on completely flat terrain as any slope or bump will alter the movement speed in this game due to gravity.

So you admit it:
250ups vamire run speed (and vampire stealth (removes penalty))
~320ups concealed weapon + vamp stealth

Broken.

~450ups 75% speed horse
~465ups concealed weapon + vamp + night's silence

Rediculously broken.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

I haven't read 1.4.3 but on 1.4 there was an outcry on PTS forum, about the change where only one stealth speed bonus is active at any time. (hehe good one ZoS!!)

Either the Vampire passive, or one of the set bonuses. Not all together working any more.

Rylana

you forgot speed potions, OP.

With those, not only did they outrun galloping speed horses, but they outran sorcs as well.

Throw on retreating maneuvers and a rolldodge boost for 2 seconds with a bow equipped and it got really hilarious.

Attorneyatlawl

Rylana wrote: »

you forgot speed potions, OP.

With those, not only did they outrun galloping speed horses, but they outran sorcs as well.

Throw on retreating maneuvers and a rolldodge boost for 2 seconds with a bow equipped and it got really hilarious.

Speed pots can be used for horses as well, however as I have said in the thread:

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

You can use temporary buffs such as rapid maneuvers, speed potion, etc. in conjunction with any of these numbers listed, which is why I didn't put them in the comparison as you can use them with any of these combinations as well and stuck to listing permanent speed boosts.

Hence why they were not included. It wasn't forgotten . You forgot to read the discussion before responding though.

TehMagnus

Awesome data as usual, as someone said speed potions could change this no? Panacea of speed gives 30% increased speed if i'm correct? Retreating maneuver about 30% as well?

MornaBaine

Thank you. Now give me back my damn Night's Silence set that works for my vampire ZoS you knuckleheads!

dan958

I want it back

c0rp

Lmao..all the data in the world doesnt make sneaking at ridiculous speeds acceptable.

Your numbers show that vamps could not sneak faster than the fastest horse in the game leveled up with +Speed every time WHILE it is sprinting. That doesnt mean that sneaking at NEARLY the speed of the fastest horse in the game makes it ok...

This topic is a dead horse (haha). Move on to more important things that are RUINING the game. Thanks.

s7732425ub17_ESO

c0rp wrote: »

Lmao..all the data in the world doesnt make sneaking at ridiculous speeds acceptable.

Your numbers show that vamps could not sneak faster than the fastest horse in the game leveled up with +Speed every time WHILE it is sprinting. That doesnt mean that sneaking at NEARLY the speed of the fastest horse in the game makes it ok...

This topic is a dead horse (haha). Move on to more important things that are RUINING the game. Thanks.

Exactly. I really wish people would stop talking about this.

The facts are that you can stealth at the speed of a full sprint horse sprinting. Just think about this. You are crouching on the ground and moving at the same speed as a race horse. Are you people insane?

firstdecan

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

c0rp wrote: »

Lmao..all the data in the world doesnt make sneaking at ridiculous speeds acceptable.

Your numbers show that vamps could not sneak faster than the fastest horse in the game leveled up with +Speed every time WHILE it is sprinting. That doesnt mean that sneaking at NEARLY the speed of the fastest horse in the game makes it ok...

This topic is a dead horse (haha). Move on to more important things that are RUINING the game. Thanks.

Exactly. I really wish people would stop talking about this.

The facts are that you can stealth at the speed of a full sprint horse sprinting. Just think about this. You are crouching on the ground and moving at the same speed as a race horse. Are you people insane?

But the twilight fans need vampires to be cool. Or maybe this is the same crowd that wonders why the command line is disabled in an MMO, and they can't type godmode=1 in PvP.

Anyone who thinks super fast stealthing is not an OP advantage is simply trolling.

MornaBaine

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

c0rp wrote: »

Lmao..all the data in the world doesnt make sneaking at ridiculous speeds acceptable.

Your numbers show that vamps could not sneak faster than the fastest horse in the game leveled up with +Speed every time WHILE it is sprinting. That doesnt mean that sneaking at NEARLY the speed of the fastest horse in the game makes it ok...

This topic is a dead horse (haha). Move on to more important things that are RUINING the game. Thanks.

Exactly. I really wish people would stop talking about this.

The facts are that you can stealth at the speed of a full sprint horse sprinting. Just think about this. You are crouching on the ground and moving at the same speed as a race horse. Are you people insane?

No, we are vampires. As such we are SUPPOSED to be preternaturally fast. And as our BEING preternaturally fast did not in any way wreck anyone else's gameplay there was ZERO excuse to do this.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

Moltier wrote: »

Lorebook found!

Diary of Sunshine, the horse.

Day 1.
Dear Diary, today an adventurer finally bought me!
Im so excited!
And he fed me with apples! Yummy, i love apples!

Day 2.
We went to slay evils of the worlds! I was afraid a bit and ran away, but it was fun!
And i got more apples! I love apples!

Day 3.
Apples are healthy!

Day 9.
More apples.

Day 25.
I think he dont like me anymore, and bought another horse.

Day 26.
Oats!!! He bought oats! And apples too...
I got the apples.

Day 38.
I hate apples.

Day 49.
Maybe if i stop running faster, he stops feeding me with apples.

Day 55.
It worked, now im starving.

dear god I teared up a little.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

firstdecan wrote: »

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

c0rp wrote: »

Lmao..all the data in the world doesnt make sneaking at ridiculous speeds acceptable.

Your numbers show that vamps could not sneak faster than the fastest horse in the game leveled up with +Speed every time WHILE it is sprinting. That doesnt mean that sneaking at NEARLY the speed of the fastest horse in the game makes it ok...

This topic is a dead horse (haha). Move on to more important things that are RUINING the game. Thanks.

Exactly. I really wish people would stop talking about this.

The facts are that you can stealth at the speed of a full sprint horse sprinting. Just think about this. You are crouching on the ground and moving at the same speed as a race horse. Are you people insane?

But the twilight fans need vampires to be cool. Or maybe this is the same crowd that wonders why the command line is disabled in an MMO, and they can't type godmode=1 in PvP.

Anyone who thinks super fast stealthing is not an OP advantage is simply trolling.

I don't care about twilight, I'm a dracula vampire tyvm.

Why don't you explain how it is OP?

Nocturnalis

I don't get this... I am an atloholic that is slowly trudging his alts up the leveling ranks, so I don't have much experience in this matter other than seeing a few people zip around steathing in Cyrodiil.

I see that the "for" people state it has no combat usefulness, my question is: say you are speeding up to someone, wearing your night's silence set, vamp, concealed weapon - all that jazz... is it possible to swap your gear/ skillset (if needed) with an addon in a split second? In order to get the jump on someone with you back at full combat capability? Or is there a delay/ is this not possible to do?

Also why are people are people so pationate about this, yet they also say it is so gimped at the same time? If it is slower than horses than why not ride your horse instead? Is it just that you can be stealthed to avoid being jumped when you are travelling? - why avoid pvp?

This speed sounds fun, but also ridiculous. I am on the fence regarding it.

Thank you for the education, if anyone replies.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

Nocturnalis wrote: »

I don't get this... I am an atloholic that is slowly trudging his alts up the leveling ranks, so I don't have much experience in this matter other than seeing a few people zip around steathing in Cyrodiil.

I see that the "for" people state it has no combat usefulness, my question is: say you are speeding up to someone, wearing your night's silence set, vamp, concealed weapon - all that jazz... is it possible to swap your gear/ skillset (if needed) with an addon in a split second? In order to get the jump on someone with you back at full combat capability? Or is there a delay/ is this not possible to do?

Also why are people are people so pationate about this, yet they also say it is so gimped at the same time? If it is slower than horses than why not ride your horse instead? Is it just that you can be stealthed to avoid being jumped when you are travelling? - why avoid pvp?

This speed sounds fun, but also ridiculous. I am on the fence regarding it.

Thank you for the education, if anyone replies.

Scroll up some, another poster answered your questions previously,

Also you answered why we were upset for yourself.

It was fun. So much fun.