The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
Maintenance for the week of April 22:
• PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – April 22, 4:00AM EDT (08:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)
• Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – April 24, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – April 24, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
We will be performing maintenance for patch 10.0.1 on the PTS on Monday at 10:00AM EDT (14:00 UTC).

Dragonstar Arena PTS Challenge

  • Ifthir_ESO
    Ifthir_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Medakon wrote: »
    Dps on first boss dosnt count as real dps :disagree: I can easily pull 2,4k with my nightblade on first boss :wink: and I seen a dk deal 4k dps on him :open_mouth:

    What is the time? If I wait to start fighting until the execute phase, NB can probably pull 3k. I'd like to see the video of you pulling 2.4k easily btw :)

    Valariel is the same, you can use evil hunter + the adds to see FTC damage boost. I chose the first boss because he is the only one without adds. Can do a similar test on a boss like in Craglorn. Riza or whatever since AA really isn't the best for this test.
  • Medakon
    Medakon
    ✭✭✭
    Ifthir_ESO wrote: »
    Medakon wrote: »
    Dps on first boss dosnt count as real dps :disagree: I can easily pull 2,4k with my nightblade on first boss :wink: and I seen a dk deal 4k dps on him :open_mouth:

    What is the time? If I wait to start fighting until the execute phase, NB can probably pull 3k. I'd like to see the video of you pulling 2.4k easily btw :)

    Valariel is the same, you can use evil hunter + the adds to see FTC damage boost. I chose the first boss because he is the only one without adds. Can do a similar test on a boss like in Craglorn. Riza or whatever since AA really isn't the best for this test.

    http://www.twitch.tv/medakon/c/4867159

    I got even higer atm, swaped out some gear and stuff
    Medakon - Legendary Super Hero Professional Assassin Nightblade from Tamriel who do different stuff B)
  • Medakon
    Medakon
    ✭✭✭
    marnb1dtzxkm.png
    Took some time, finally reached stage 10 again, 83 lifes :smiley:
    Medakon - Legendary Super Hero Professional Assassin Nightblade from Tamriel who do different stuff B)
  • Prince_Edward
    Prince_Edward
    ✭✭✭
    TheMast3r wrote: »
    Btw @ZOS_GinaBruno‌

    can you have a look at the pvp campaigns? It seems like they are bugged, we took the whole map on azura but getting now buffs ... would be nice when this is working. Would make it easier for all the guilds here while testing serpent and arena for u guys.

    It show no crit bonus from the keeps in char screen
    It shows the scroll bonus but the scrolls on the map are in their home keeps
    Emp Bonus works
    Not sure about Defensive and Offensive Scroll Bouns

    Chilltrend is owned by AD
    Azura is owned by EB

    Thx a lot

    Would be nice if u can fix it.

    Madini HODOR Guild



    ugh..... I haven't gotten on yet but now I know that our work last night was a bust.... spoiler...

    Nimh, of DaFunk

  • zbtiqua
    zbtiqua
    ✭✭✭
    Da Funk reached the final boss today, best attempt was 68%.
    Officer of Da Funk (EP NA)
    DSA Vet Fastest Time NA (83 mins)
    World 1st AA HM
    World 3rd Hel Ra HM
  • Medakon
    Medakon
    ✭✭✭
    zbtiqua wrote: »
    Da Funk reached the final boss today, best attempt was 68%.

    Nice job! what do you think about this guy? :smiley:
    Medakon - Legendary Super Hero Professional Assassin Nightblade from Tamriel who do different stuff B)
  • Pleira
    Pleira
    Medakon wrote: »

    http://www.twitch.tv/medakon/c/4867159

    I got even higer atm, swaped out some gear and stuff

    Easily... 1 tick of 2400 at 90% of the boss (1 second in fight...) having 1850 at the end, saying in guild-chat 1900 and in description 2k+... and THAT'S exactly how these inflated and untrue DPS numbers are born.

    I don't want to attack you, 1850 is really good, better than i do at the moment. But please stop making these exaggerated claims of DPS. People will just catch the number 2.4k and will spread this farther. It only hurts the purpose of finding 'real' DPS numbers for certain classes and builds
    Edited by Pleira on August 28, 2014 5:04PM
  • zbtiqua
    zbtiqua
    ✭✭✭
    Medakon wrote: »
    zbtiqua wrote: »
    Da Funk reached the final boss today, best attempt was 68%.

    Nice job! what do you think about this guy? :smiley:

    I think the boss is very challenging. We haven't been able to master the split phase yet, especially due to the apparently random nature of which bosses spawn. I've found that with so much graphically going on (fire everywhere, mass AOE) that it is difficult to identify and respond in time to the appropriate threat, depending on which two have spawned. For instance, seeing a "meteor" red circle among all the fire atronarch AOE... is very difficult. I almost wonder if this is more of a graphical UI / API or information flow issue rather than an actual function of encounter difficulty.

    Nonetheless, dealing with the fire atronarchs and the flame summoners along with the boss is fairly straightforward, but doing so while dealing with the two other summon bosses, with only 4 players, is pretty extreme. I have a few ideas for potential strategies though which I hope to test out next week :)
    Edited by zbtiqua on August 28, 2014 7:50PM
    Officer of Da Funk (EP NA)
    DSA Vet Fastest Time NA (83 mins)
    World 1st AA HM
    World 3rd Hel Ra HM
  • Medakon
    Medakon
    ✭✭✭
    Hodor finally figured the tacitc for last boss, and a good way to kill the minibosses :smiley: Got the boss down to 40% then wiped because we got panic :persevere: wasted all lifes, gona give it another go tomorrow I guess.
    Medakon - Legendary Super Hero Professional Assassin Nightblade from Tamriel who do different stuff B)
  • Rune_Relic
    Rune_Relic
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Medakon wrote: »
    Hodor finally figured the tacitc for last boss, and a good way to kill the minibosses :smiley: Got the boss down to 40% then wiped because we got panic :persevere: wasted all lifes, gona give it another go tomorrow I guess.

    You broke my heart. I was hoping no one was good enough to complete all the levels :(
    Sounds like you are confident though.

    Good luck.
    Anything that can be exploited will be exploited
  • TheMast3r
    TheMast3r
    ✭✭✭
    Rune_Relic wrote: »

    You broke my heart. I was hoping no one was good enough to complete all the levels :(
    Sounds like you are confident though.

    Good luck.

    Hmm ... the problem is not to be good enough or not ... actually this boss depends more on luck than on skill.

    Of course the tactic and how to kill the boss at all needs to be done perfectly but at the moment you need also luck.

    You are getting two bosses of the stages before, if its the wrong combination you are not able to manage it.

    PVP Bonuses etc are not working ....

    We already spend around 400 souls there so we have some progress ...

    We are now in the second phase of 3 and it seems like the boss himself gets the ultimate abilities from the bosses before ...

    Pretty insane ...

    You are four ppl ... 1 tank 2 dps and 1 healer

    You have to manage a boss with 364k which summons every 30 seconds four flame attronarchs with 14 k. All of u have every 30 sec flamering around u. And the fire stays on the ground. Then there are 2 minibosses coming with 90k and 50k and they use ultimates like solarprison, negate, manadrain shot etc. If that would be enough 6 guys are summoning fire on the whole ground of the arena. If u kill them they respawn ...

    We will kill him ... but it takes a lot of effort ...

    Madini Hodor Guild
    Edited by TheMast3r on August 29, 2014 2:51AM
  • Ifthir_ESO
    Ifthir_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭

    Easily... 1 tick of 2400 at 90% of the boss (1 second in fight...) having 1850 at the end, saying in guild-chat 1900 and in description 2k+... and THAT'S exactly how these inflated and untrue DPS numbers are born.

    I don't want to attack you, 1850 is really good, better than i do at the moment. But please stop making these exaggerated claims of DPS. People will just catch the number 2.4k and will spread this farther. It only hurts the purpose of finding 'real' DPS numbers for certain classes and builds

    QFT except the better than part, I've hit 1850 several times vs. first boss

    orb numbers of course were 50k+ :#
    Edited by Ifthir_ESO on August 29, 2014 5:32AM
  • trimsic_ESO
    trimsic_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    TheMast3r wrote: »
    Dubah wrote: »

    I agree and disagree, whereas the dps isnt as bad as people claim it is with a stamina build, however they still don't put the numbers up as a caster build. Never once have i or any of my fellow guild members complained about it, and actually have a bow build that does about 1k sustained single target which is nice, but magicka builds even with crappy players can get about 1.2-1.3k easy (of course that is while actually performing mechanics) and the real biggest problem is melee and how many point blank aoe's there are, and simply can't dps as often as a caster staying at range and never having to worry about point blank AE's. So I will say I agree and disagree.

    I agree and disagree :wink:

    Highest DPS in the game
    1. DK Melee Caster, but he is in melee range and u need a lot of skill to get this dps (around 1500 dps)
    2. Templar 2h Hybrid build medium armor(1400 dps) amazing btw and without blazing shield ^^
    3. DK 2h Hybrid build medium armor (1300 dps) ... I think u can improve this a lot, just tried it one run in AA so far.
    4. Nightblades Mage Build (1100 dps)
    5. Sorcerer Mage Build (1000 dps)


    Madini HODOR EU Guild

    Are the DKs using fragmented shield?

  • TheMast3r
    TheMast3r
    ✭✭✭


    Are the DKs using fragmented shield?

    No im not talking about frag shield spamming where u can reach 3k dps at bosses ;)

    Edited by TheMast3r on August 29, 2014 12:04PM
  • ZOS_JessicaFolsom
    ZOS_JessicaFolsom
    Community Manager
    Hey everyone,

    We've been incredibly impressed with how far some guilds have made it in the Veteran version of Dragonstar Arena. We’re going to be making a small change to the mechanic that occurs when the final arena boss reaches 50% that will make the fight a bit more fair. Not necessarily easier, just a bit less RNG-based.

    The fix isn't changing any mechanics, but will be changing the order in which certain things fire off. For example, you’ll have a little more time against mini-bosses before certain abilities are cast.

    That change will be going in next week (Wednesday or later.) If you want to wait until then, we understand. Hit up the Serpent Trial in the meantime!
    Jessica Folsom
    Lead Community Manager - ZeniMax Online Studios
    Facebook | Twitter | Twitch | Tumblr | Instagram | YouTube | Support
    Staff Post
  • Anjelicus
    Anjelicus
    ✭✭✭
    Hey everyone,

    We've been incredibly impressed with how far some guilds have made it in the Veteran version of Dragonstar Arena. We’re going to be making a small change to the mechanic that occurs when the final arena boss reaches 50% that will make the fight a bit more fair. Not necessarily easier, just a bit less RNG-based.

    The fix isn't changing any mechanics, but will be changing the order in which certain things fire off. For example, you’ll have a little more time against mini-bosses before certain abilities are cast.

    That change will be going in next week (Wednesday or later.) If you want to wait until then, we understand. Hit up the Serpent Trial in the meantime!

    heh not going to wait, I'm a gambling man!
    Vokundein
    Legend Gaming Website | Join Us
    Guild Twitch Live Stream
    Anjelicus - Head of PVE
    VR14 Templar // VR14 Nightblade // VR14 Dragonknight // VR10 Sorcerer
    PTS - Veteran Dragonstar Arena Developer Challenge Conqueror
  • TheMast3r
    TheMast3r
    ✭✭✭
    Hrhr we manage now the second phase the mentioned 50 % phase ... and brought him down to 40 % precent

    Really funny, two adds with ultimate dropping and the boss is now also dropping solar prison, darkflare, power of the light etc....

    So it seems like the boss has different faces
    1st phase: Nightblade
    2nd phase: Templar
    and 3rd phase: lets me guess ... DK Standard, Cinderstorm and Magma Armor incoming ^^

    Madini Hodor
    Edited by TheMast3r on August 30, 2014 1:40AM
  • unicorn1844
    The Craglorn Template and the equipment given is good but if you want more people to try this stuff out I would tell you to let more people of various ability work on this. When I went to the arena there was no one there who would group with me because I dont have a VR12 character even though I do have a VR8 and a VR3
    and several maxed crafting skills. They would not group with me because I have not done any of the timed trials. I went to the PTS server because I had read that there is a small exclusive group who does the testing and an ordinary player cant get on it. Well this ordinary player was able to get on the PTS but then found that there is indeed a small exclusive group that refuses to let just ordinary players even try the new content. So Zenimax if you want more players to try out your new stuff I would say that this group is hampering any efforts by the larger majority of your players who really care about this game. Obviously most of the content in Craglorn cannot be soloed. I found this out with much chagrin when a group of about six wasps totally wiped me out. So much for trying to help out, sorry Zenimax.
  • Tripwyr
    Tripwyr
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    The Craglorn Template and the equipment given is good but if you want more people to try this stuff out I would tell you to let more people of various ability work on this. When I went to the arena there was no one there who would group with me because I dont have a VR12 character even though I do have a VR8 and a VR3
    and several maxed crafting skills. They would not group with me because I have not done any of the timed trials. I went to the PTS server because I had read that there is a small exclusive group who does the testing and an ordinary player cant get on it. Well this ordinary player was able to get on the PTS but then found that there is indeed a small exclusive group that refuses to let just ordinary players even try the new content. So Zenimax if you want more players to try out your new stuff I would say that this group is hampering any efforts by the larger majority of your players who really care about this game. Obviously most of the content in Craglorn cannot be soloed. I found this out with much chagrin when a group of about six wasps totally wiped me out. So much for trying to help out, sorry Zenimax.

    One option would be to start a group yourself and invite all sorts of players. Reality is that experience is key, why would a group invite you to new more challenging content when you don't have experience with the existing less challenging content?

    Alacrity just beat Stage 9. We haven't been playing for a few days, watch out!

    EDIT: Stage 10 60%. Tough fight, but we're managing. Hoping we can make it to 50% and see how the fight changes tomorrow.
    Edited by Tripwyr on August 30, 2014 5:53AM
    Alacrity Founder | Forum Emperor
    World First Veteran Dragonstar Arena

    Tripwyr Manawrath - AD NA Sorcerer, Former Emperor of Haderus; Former Emperor of Hopesfire, First Cycle
    Tripwyr Flamewrath - AD NA Dragon Knight, Former Emperor of Thornblade, First Cycle
    Imperial Tripwyr - AD NA Templar, Former Emperor of Blackwater Blade
    Ripwyr - DC NA Templar
    Nyrv - EP NA Sorcerer

    I am of the firm opinion that subtracting "raging stupidity" from anyone's voice can only cause them to sound more like myself.
  • Attorneyatlawl
    Attorneyatlawl
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Tripwyr wrote: »
    The Craglorn Template and the equipment given is good but if you want more people to try this stuff out I would tell you to let more people of various ability work on this. When I went to the arena there was no one there who would group with me because I dont have a VR12 character even though I do have a VR8 and a VR3
    and several maxed crafting skills. They would not group with me because I have not done any of the timed trials. I went to the PTS server because I had read that there is a small exclusive group who does the testing and an ordinary player cant get on it. Well this ordinary player was able to get on the PTS but then found that there is indeed a small exclusive group that refuses to let just ordinary players even try the new content. So Zenimax if you want more players to try out your new stuff I would say that this group is hampering any efforts by the larger majority of your players who really care about this game. Obviously most of the content in Craglorn cannot be soloed. I found this out with much chagrin when a group of about six wasps totally wiped me out. So much for trying to help out, sorry Zenimax.

    One option would be to start a group yourself and invite all sorts of players. Reality is that experience is key, why would a group invite you to new more challenging content when you don't have experience with the existing less challenging content?

    Alacrity just beat Stage 9. We haven't been playing for a few days, watch out!

    EDIT: Stage 10 60%. Tough fight, but we're managing. Hoping we can make it to 50% and see how the fight changes tomorrow.

    I agree... and very nice... I've only gotten 4-5 groups total together for the vet arena so far on different nights and gotten pretty much through the 5th arena. Looking forward to it hitting live... for some reason it seems most people are allergic to downloading PTS despite them giving you templates that take 5-10 minutes to set up once and you're done :(. I very much like the challenge the arena provides so far and am quietly rooting for you guys :D and anyone else working their way through!
    Edited by Attorneyatlawl on August 30, 2014 3:47PM
    -First-Wave Closed Beta Tester of the Psijic Order, aka the 0.016 percent.
    Exploits suck. Don't blame just the game, blame the players abusing them!

    -Playing since July 2013, back when we had a killspam channel in Cyrodiil and the lands of Tamriel were roamed by dinosaurs.
    ________________
    -In-game mains abound with "Nerf" in their name. As I am asked occasionally, I do not play on anything but the PC NA Megaserver at this time.
  • Kraven
    Kraven
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    The Craglorn Template and the equipment given is good but if you want more people to try this stuff out I would tell you to let more people of various ability work on this. When I went to the arena there was no one there who would group with me because I dont have a VR12 character even though I do have a VR8 and a VR3
    and several maxed crafting skills. They would not group with me because I have not done any of the timed trials. I went to the PTS server because I had read that there is a small exclusive group who does the testing and an ordinary player cant get on it. Well this ordinary player was able to get on the PTS but then found that there is indeed a small exclusive group that refuses to let just ordinary players even try the new content. So Zenimax if you want more players to try out your new stuff I would say that this group is hampering any efforts by the larger majority of your players who really care about this game. Obviously most of the content in Craglorn cannot be soloed. I found this out with much chagrin when a group of about six wasps totally wiped me out. So much for trying to help out, sorry Zenimax.


    It's not a matter of small exclusive group but for me personally more of a matter of I know these guys I'm playing with. I'm in a TS channel with them, we work well together and we mesh because we've spent time playing together. I don't know you, in some of the hardest content to date I need to know the people I am playing with. Then when it hits the fan we're not throwing blame or rage quitting because we play together we know how to adapt together as a unit.

    I really enjoy playing with new players but in this content I don't want to question whether the 'new' guy is pulling his weight, or if he's not, then worry about whether they are going to get offended by suggestions.

    But that's just me. There are many who do pug on the PTS, I see several in chat daily but I think it is a matter of timing.
    V14 - IMPERIAL NIGHTBLADE - DPS/TANK
    V13 - BRETON SORCERER - HEALS/DPS
    V2 - REDGUARD DRAGONKNIGHT - MELEE DPS
    V1 - BRETON TEMPLAR - TANK/DPS

    to be continued... Nevermind, no longer "to be continued"
  • Robert_Pendragon
    Robert_Pendragon
    ✭✭✭
    Last Prodigies is getting completely destroyed at stage 9 on boss fight, we have tried every single possible strat we could think of. Can anyone be kind enough to give some tips? We are quite sure there's some trick we haven't figured out yet.
  • Medakon
    Medakon
    ✭✭✭
    Last Prodigies is getting completely destroyed at stage 9 on boss fight, we have tried every single possible strat we could think of. Can anyone be kind enough to give some tips? We are quite sure there's some trick we haven't figured out yet.

    Gona livestream a full run once we beaten last boss, then you will see how we do it :smile: Geting really close, droping last boss to 45% every try :smiley:

    Stream gona be on www.twitch.tv/medakon , Will post on the forum once it go live, probably tomorrow maybe.
    Edited by Medakon on August 30, 2014 8:46PM
    Medakon - Legendary Super Hero Professional Assassin Nightblade from Tamriel who do different stuff B)
  • Robert_Pendragon
    Robert_Pendragon
    ✭✭✭
    Medakon wrote: »
    Geting really close, droping last boss to 45% every try :smiley:

    Good luck Hodor =)
  • Robert_Pendragon
    Robert_Pendragon
    ✭✭✭
    Last Prodigies finally downed stage 9 :# We had the right strat all along, just lacked execution. Hopefully we can meet you guys at the finish line =)
  • TheMast3r
    TheMast3r
    ✭✭✭
    Last Prodigies finally downed stage 9 :# We had the right strat all along, just lacked execution. Hopefully we can meet you guys at the finish line =)

    Congratz to you guys!!!!! Have fun with the last boss :smiley:

    Hodor down to 35 % percent .... ZOS just crazy!!!! Now Boss also makes exploding move ^^

    If we beat that guy before the changes on Wednesday we need to get a medal of honor because it is definitely impossible to do it!!!

    I think we had now over 100 tries .... insane

    Edited by TheMast3r on September 1, 2014 1:27AM
  • Medakon
    Medakon
    ✭✭✭
    TheMast3r wrote: »
    Last Prodigies finally downed stage 9 :# We had the right strat all along, just lacked execution. Hopefully we can meet you guys at the finish line =)

    Congratz to you guys!!!!! Have fun with the last boss :smiley:

    Hodor down to 35 % percent .... ZOS just crazy!!!! Now Boss also makes exploding move ^^

    If we beat that guy before the changes on Wednesday we need to get a medal of honor because it is definitely impossible to do it!!!

    I think we had now over 100 tries .... insane

    This guy is insane, only hardcore players gona be able to beat it, if we beat it I want the last boss as a mount :open_mouth:
    Medakon - Legendary Super Hero Professional Assassin Nightblade from Tamriel who do different stuff B)
  • Rune_Relic
    Rune_Relic
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Medakon wrote: »
    TheMast3r wrote: »
    Last Prodigies finally downed stage 9 :# We had the right strat all along, just lacked execution. Hopefully we can meet you guys at the finish line =)

    Congratz to you guys!!!!! Have fun with the last boss :smiley:

    Hodor down to 35 % percent .... ZOS just crazy!!!! Now Boss also makes exploding move ^^

    If we beat that guy before the changes on Wednesday we need to get a medal of honor because it is definitely impossible to do it!!!

    I think we had now over 100 tries .... insane

    This guy is insane, only hardcore players gona be able to beat it, if we beat it I want the last boss as a mount :open_mouth:

    You can get his head on a spike outside your player/guild housing ;)
    Anything that can be exploited will be exploited
  • TheMast3r
    TheMast3r
    ✭✭✭
    wmg502wpnmip.jpg
    Finally we killed The Battlemaster on Veteran Mode and cleared Dragonstar Arena on Hardmode ...

    We reached there with 98 souls left and had a good miniboss spawn and nuked him down.

    There are no minibosses in the 3 phase at 25 %!!!!

    Finally ... World First Dragonstar Arena Veteran Kill from HODOR Guild!!!!! And at that stage definitely the hardest content and boss in ESO!!!

    @‌ ZOS

    the loot u get there is it definitely not worth the time and the afford. The ability enchantment is nice but not really something to go more than 3 hours in there. Serpent can be cleaned in 11 mins and there will be better loots.

    We suggest that u make loots which are really awesome to keep the ppl interested to do that kind of content. If the loots are not interesting ppl will not go there after doing it once. That's why many good players are leaving the game because they loose interest. And in a game like ESO most of the ppl are looking for some awesome unique loot (gear, pets, mounts etc). It has to be much better than crafting gear and it has to look much better than crafting gear.

    To be honest after we got the loot we lost interest to clear it again because there is no reason to do it again.

    You are getting the same set pieces like stage 1-9 and even the setpieces are lvl 13.

    Just our two cents.

    Players:
    Madini
    Medakon
    Whiteclaw
    Mystwyn

    Big shout out .... "HODORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR"

    Over and out Madini HODOR Guild
    Edited by TheMast3r on September 1, 2014 4:20PM
  • Blezer
    Blezer
    ✭✭
    TheMast3r wrote: »
    wmg502wpnmip.jpg
    Finally we killed The Battlemaster on Veteran Mode and cleared Dragonstar Arena on Hardmode ...

    We reached there with 98 souls left and had a good miniboss spawn and nuked him down.

    There are no minibosses in the 3 phase at 25 %!!!!

    Finally ... World First Dragonstar Arena Veteran Kill from HODOR Guild!!!!! And at that stage definitely the hardest content and boss in ESO!!!

    Players:
    Madini
    Medakon
    Whiteclaw
    Mystwyn

    Big shout out .... "HODORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR"

    Over and out Madini HODOR Guild

    Nice job. I-m glad you did it before they changed the mechanics. that only shows you are real professionals. :)

    How long did the arena run took you?

    Hiphip hurray HODOR!!!
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