PVE Tank Traits

Orbital

https://woeler.eu/

one of the best tanks in the game, copy him
his website is dedicated to tanking, off and main.
A lot of people in this thread have no idea what they are talking about.

Gilliamtherogue

Royaji wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@paulsimonps

why do you use 5-1-1 instead of 7-0-0?

The slight cost reduction and recovery from the 1p Medium and 1p Light outweighs the small increase you get in resistance and it outweighs the slight increase in constitution from 7-0-0. And with the undaunted passive you get just as much HP with 5-1-1 as you get with 7-0-0. In short, cost reduction be awesome, be it magicka, stamina or block.

I thought that I went over the math one time in your tanking thread and showed 7-0-0 to offer a resource generation advantage when compared to 5-1-1. When discussing this idea with @Gilliamtherogue , he corroborated my idea via some of his own comparisons.

Can you please show how 5-1-1 offers superior resource management compared to 7-0-0?

Thank you.

5-1-1 is always better for tanks. Undaunted Mettle passive gives you 2% extra resources per type of armor worn. 6% extra health, stam and magika outweighs any sustain bonuses 2 extra pieces of heavy armor can give you.

As for the OP, infused on big pieces and divines/sturdy on small. Fill CP for the opposing bonus (shadow ward if divines and arcanist if sturdy). There is a lot of ways to reach resistance caps so don't waste slots on reinforced. The only exception is shield, that can be nirnhoned/reinforced.

It's 4% over 7 heavy because you're only added Light and Medium, which both add 2% bonus stats. Heavy Armor offers 2% additional health per piece worn, so you're only gaining minor Cost Reduction, as well as 4% Stamina and Magicka.

In terms of resource management for a tank, 7 Heavy is actually superior, as well as raw mitigation. If you're looking for comparisons for each check out;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES_Ghgb3BDo

this spread sheet shows a lot of it as well;
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h33h7NriXKbJt8wW5gLcchVnB_lwzKz-dvrcNXK2ooM/edit?usp=sharing

Gilliamtherogue

Nifty2g wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@paulsimonps

why do you use 5-1-1 instead of 7-0-0?

The slight cost reduction and recovery from the 1p Medium and 1p Light outweighs the small increase you get in resistance and it outweighs the slight increase in constitution from 7-0-0. And with the undaunted passive you get just as much HP with 5-1-1 as you get with 7-0-0. In short, cost reduction be awesome, be it magicka, stamina or block.

I thought that I went over the math one time in your tanking thread and showed 7-0-0 to offer a resource generation advantage when compared to 5-1-1. When discussing this idea with @Gilliamtherogue , he corroborated my idea via some of his own comparisons.

Can you please show how 5-1-1 offers superior resource management compared to 7-0-0?

Thank you.

5-1-1 is always better for tanks. Undaunted Mettle passive gives you 2% extra resources per type of armor worn. 6% extra health, stam and magika outweighs any sustain bonuses 2 extra pieces of heavy armor can give you.

As for the OP, infused on big pieces and divines/sturdy on small. Fill CP for the opposing bonus (shadow ward if divines and arcanist if sturdy). There is a lot of ways to reach resistance caps so don't waste slots on reinforced. The only exception is shield, that can be nirnhoned/reinforced.

You said exactly what you quoted him on for his response. I too find that 7-0-0 is nicer to have on tanks. I would like to see some math of the others.

You won't find any, because the math shows 7-0-0 at a gain :^)

paulsimonps

@Personofsecrets

Yea, I was wrong, noticed I forgot to take some things into account. But at the very least :P Guilliams math proves my point even more with the 8 Sturdy But yea, I will be swapping to 7-0-0. Always got to admit that you are wrong if fact proves it. Fact>Opinion.

TheRealPotoroo

Crimsonorion wrote: »

So for a full set of Heavy Armor and Shield what are good traits to put on crafted items. For PVE is Crit Hit defense useful. Any help would be nice thanks

My tank is a stamDK Orc. 6 heavy + 1 medium (waist).

Gold Infused Prismatic on head, chest, legs, Purple Divines on the rest (can't remember which one is on my shields). Swords for full on tank mode are Gold Defending with Crusher, for solo PvE questing I use Sharpened.

I run 5 Willow's Path (for recovery), 4 Hist Bark (for health and physical resistance), and 3 Werewolf jewellery with gold enchantments (for stamina) which does pretty well for mid-trait crafted stuff. I've only recently started to get 8 and 9 traits researched; Willow's Path is 6 and Hist Bark is 4. Also I replaced the WW necklace stam enchantment with gold reduced cost shield play/blocking.

Until very recently I've been relying on bread (+6k health), which gets me up to about 30K, but I've just started to get into multi-pots. With only bread for health, stam, physical and spell resistance are all around 25k, magicka is about 15(?).

Gordon906

I'm literally on the edge here... I guess I will only go reinforced for shield.

ol_BANK_lo

PVE MOBS DO NOT CRIT! EVER!

Those that are using impen in PVE are wasting a trait. There is no right answer as to traits, but some combination of reinforced, infused, sturdy and divines is necessary. If you run crafted, nirnhoned is slightly better than reinforced on the shield (and maybe a few others). But, most BiS gear is picked up and not crafted, and they don't drop in nirnhoned.

Some swear by one trait over another, but all work well when used in the right way. But you MUST know why you are using the trait you are using. Have a goal of what you are trying to achieve statistically speaking. Know how much regen you want, know how much resistance you want, know how much block mitigation you want, know how much of each resource you want.

A good rule of thumb for a main tank is 30k health, stam next highest and magicka as smallest pool. Off tank will usually have less health than that, as they don't take the biggest hits. How you get there will depend on what sets you are running, and what race you are. I would say every tank should be running 8 prismatic enchantments though. You end up with 2k+ extra total stats, even more if you are an imperial. For a DK Tank, you want a big enough stam pool to taunt and block everything you need (with very occasional shard help), and have enough magicka regen for igneous shield and chains (as needed).

Check out Woeler's YouTube or website for more info about block cost reduction and tank builds. Deltia also currently has a series going with Woeler, so you can check that out, too. Typically you won't run Sturdy if you use CP for cost reduction, and vice versa. Also, you only want to be as "tanky" as necessary", have large resource pools, and aid your group as much as possible. Things like Ebon and War Horn give flat values, which are good for non-DD.

hmsdragonfly

Infused Chest and Legs pieces.
Divines on all other pieces. (except for monter helm pieces, have to use whatever i have)
All Tri-stat glyphs.

I put 50 CPs in block cost reduction.

So when I play PvP, I can wear full impen without sacrificing block cost reduction.

Gordon906

So I would go reinforced/nirnhoned shield.
2 infused and 5 sturdy. 64 points in health and some tri rat glyph I I could afford it.

Gordon906

I should go defend for weapon trait and crushing enchant since that's what tanks are significant for.

SquareSausage

Sorry guys, dont really understand the Spreadsheet, but i recently made my tank 5/1/1.

Whats the reasosn then for 7 heavy. Constitution returns more resources with 7 heavy? Anyone got an exact figure with 7/0/0 or 5/1/1 values for constitution.

Kodrac

Gordon906 wrote: »

I prefer sturdy since tanking requires alot of blocks but impenetrable, infused, and reinforced is also great for tanks. Reinforced is not really a must have since many abilities and equipment allows you to hit resistance hard caps.

Well, that was a successful necro. I was going to reply to the n00b in the OP but realized this was from launch.

Tasear

Divines!!!! Cause I want more more Magicka regain!!! No not a frost tank, but super nevertheless

But really refronced and sturdy are best if you want to be self sustaining.

paulsimonps

Gordon906 wrote: »

I should go defend for weapon trait and crushing enchant since that's what tanks are significant for.

You could go with Infused to increase up time and strength of the Crusher Enchant or Decisive to get better Ultimate generation. With the bonuses in mitigation from CP and other sources Defending won't really add too much.

rustic_potato

@Gilliamtherogue Some instances prefer having a bigger resource pool over the resource return. 5-1-1 works better in for me in VDSA as resource management is never an issue. The added resource pool means more chains and talons before I run dry and need orbs on my stam tank. For 12 man trials 7-0-0 is the way to go..

hmsdragonfly

Gordon906 wrote: »

So I would go reinforced/nirnhoned shield.
2 infused and 5 sturdy. 64 points in health and some tri rat glyph I I could afford it.

No, put only 10-20 in health, all others in stam.

paulsimonps

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Gordon906 wrote: »

So I would go reinforced/nirnhoned shield.
2 infused and 5 sturdy. 64 points in health and some tri rat glyph I I could afford it.

No, put only 10-20 in health, all others in stam.

Really just put as much as you need into HP to get to 30k HP and the rest into stamina. the number you need changes on gear and race so don't listen to exact numbers like that. But as long as you get past 30k by even just a few numbers you can put the rest into Stamina.

kojou

Depending on what I get out of the armor bonuses I will typically use:

Head, Chest, Legs: Either Infused or Reinforced, although Sturdy is fine here as well.

Shoulders, Waist, Hands, Feet: Always Sturdy.

I always use all 7 heavy as noted by some of the others in this thread for the same reasons listed, although I do have a build where I use a sash of the Sanctuary set, but only because RNG has never granted me a shield of that set.

Weapons: I use one defending and one infused and put the crushing enchant on the Infused weapon.

Off the topic of traits... I love Prismatic Defense glyphs, and would put them on all pieces, but they are expensive, so unless I really love the build I just put them on the big pieces and put health on the small ones.

I have been tempted to do a 7 Sturdy build, but never had enough issues with resource management to feel like I would get that much benefit out of it. With 4 Sturdy, 100 CP in block cost, and Shield Play enchants we are talking only a few more stamina points per block to do the other 3, so why not go for more mitigation or resources?

NetflixNChiill

5ebon body big pcs infused small divines for a larger resource pool and divines for extra mag recovery atronach mundus 5 Alkosh jewelry + 1h defending shield reinforced 2 bloodspawn heavy (could go 1 med 1 light here for undaunted passive, but I go all heavy) helm reinforced or infused shoulder sturdy or divines that's how I run my tank for vet trials and dungeons and he does really well

rustic_potato

paulsimonps wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Gordon906 wrote: »

So I would go reinforced/nirnhoned shield.
2 infused and 5 sturdy. 64 points in health and some tri rat glyph I I could afford it.

No, put only 10-20 in health, all others in stam.

Really just put as much as you need into HP to get to 30k HP and the rest into stamina. the number you need changes on gear and race so don't listen to exact numbers like that. But as long as you get past 30k by even just a few numbers you can put the rest into Stamina.

28k HP will get you 30k with a horn.. So essentially you need to be at 28k HP before allocating points into other stats..

Gordon906

So big pieces such as helm, chest, and leg would be infused. Shoulder, hand, waist, and feet would be sturdy. Shield is reinforced or nirnhoned.

TheRealPotoroo

rustic_potato wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Gordon906 wrote: »

So I would go reinforced/nirnhoned shield.
2 infused and 5 sturdy. 64 points in health and some tri rat glyph I I could afford it.

No, put only 10-20 in health, all others in stam.

Really just put as much as you need into HP to get to 30k HP and the rest into stamina. the number you need changes on gear and race so don't listen to exact numbers like that. But as long as you get past 30k by even just a few numbers you can put the rest into Stamina.

28k HP will get you 30k with a horn.. So essentially you need to be at 28k HP before allocating points into other stats..

Even low level food or pots easily get you far more than 2k health.

paulsimonps

TheRealPotoroo wrote: »

rustic_potato wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Gordon906 wrote: »

So I would go reinforced/nirnhoned shield.
2 infused and 5 sturdy. 64 points in health and some tri rat glyph I I could afford it.

No, put only 10-20 in health, all others in stam.

Really just put as much as you need into HP to get to 30k HP and the rest into stamina. the number you need changes on gear and race so don't listen to exact numbers like that. But as long as you get past 30k by even just a few numbers you can put the rest into Stamina.

28k HP will get you 30k with a horn.. So essentially you need to be at 28k HP before allocating points into other stats..

Even low level food or pots easily get you far more than 2k health.

Your suppose to count Food into the calculation when you try and get to where ever it is you aim for. So what he said is 28k with food. I still say 30k. I would rather have slightly higher with Warhorn than slightly less without.

Lynx7386

Well according to the guy I ran veteran fungal grotto with tonight, tanks are perfectly fine in red mountain armor dual wielding daggers with no taunting ability. That was a rough run, lol

paulsimonps

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Well according to the guy I ran veteran fungal grotto with tonight, tanks are perfectly fine in red mountain armor dual wielding daggers with no taunting ability. That was a rough run, lol

I was had a guy tell me that there is more ways than 2 to taunt. Cause if you pull highest DPS then you will pull aggro..... Needless to say that was not a very long lasting run. DPS=/=Tank

Tan9oSuccka

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@paulsimonps

why do you use 5-1-1 instead of 7-0-0?

The slight cost reduction and recovery from the 1p Medium and 1p Light outweighs the small increase you get in resistance and it outweighs the slight increase in constitution from 7-0-0. And with the undaunted passive you get just as much HP with 5-1-1 as you get with 7-0-0. In short, cost reduction be awesome, be it magicka, stamina or block.

I thought that I went over the math one time in your tanking thread and showed 7-0-0 to offer a resource generation advantage when compared to 5-1-1. When discussing this idea with @Gilliamtherogue , he corroborated my idea via some of his own comparisons.

Can you please show how 5-1-1 offers superior resource management compared to 7-0-0?

Thank you.

5-1-1 is always better for tanks. Undaunted Mettle passive gives you 2% extra resources per type of armor worn. 6% extra health, stam and magika outweighs any sustain bonuses 2 extra pieces of heavy armor can give you.

As for the OP, infused on big pieces and divines/sturdy on small. Fill CP for the opposing bonus (shadow ward if divines and arcanist if sturdy). There is a lot of ways to reach resistance caps so don't waste slots on reinforced. The only exception is shield, that can be nirnhoned/reinforced.

It's 4% over 7 heavy because you're only added Light and Medium, which both add 2% bonus stats. Heavy Armor offers 2% additional health per piece worn, so you're only gaining minor Cost Reduction, as well as 4% Stamina and Magicka.

In terms of resource management for a tank, 7 Heavy is actually superior, as well as raw mitigation. If you're looking for comparisons for each check out;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES_Ghgb3BDo

this spread sheet shows a lot of it as well;
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h33h7NriXKbJt8wW5gLcchVnB_lwzKz-dvrcNXK2ooM/edit?usp=sharing

I agree. I prefer 7 heavy as well.

Sordidfairytale

paulsimonps wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Well according to the guy I ran veteran fungal grotto with tonight, tanks are perfectly fine in red mountain armor dual wielding daggers with no taunting ability. That was a rough run, lol

I was had a guy tell me that there is more ways than 2 to taunt. Cause if you pull highest DPS then you will pull aggro..... Needless to say that was not a very long lasting run. DPS=/=Tank

I had a guy tell me that as well, I pointed out that while yes, you can use Tormentor, why? And yes in a pinch you can ha with a frost staff, but neither of those methods are as effective as the traditional two. And so far as the DPS taunt, 'heals' will out-taunt 'DPS' in the long run every single time.

Additionally, I'd never reinforce a shield if I had the opportunity to Nirn it.

Bowser

paulsimonps wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Well according to the guy I ran veteran fungal grotto with tonight, tanks are perfectly fine in red mountain armor dual wielding daggers with no taunting ability. That was a rough run, lol

I was had a guy tell me that there is more ways than 2 to taunt. Cause if you pull highest DPS then you will pull aggro..... Needless to say that was not a very long lasting run. DPS=/=Tank

There is some truth to this. Turns out its way easier to lay down caltrops than to keep taunt on 4+ axes that swing through each other in VAA.

I like 7 heavy sturdy with a reinforced shield.

Lynx7386

Sordidfairytale wrote: »

Additionally, I'd never reinforce a shield if I had the opportunity to Nirn it.

With the 75% extra armor on shields with champion perks, wouldn't reinforced be better?

Liofa

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Sordidfairytale wrote: »

Additionally, I'd never reinforce a shield if I had the opportunity to Nirn it.

With the 75% extra armor on shields with champion perks, wouldn't reinforced be better?

Nirnhorned gives just a bit more resistances . The difference is so small , you won't even notice it . Especially with the diminishing returns . Reinforced and Nirnhorned are basically the same . Nirnhorned just makes you spend more because Nirncrux . Doesn't worth it .