Spell Resistance is Pointless in PVP?

Turelus

So I have been taking a lot more time to read up and understand the secondary attributes in this game and I keep running into one thing, spell resistance in pointless in PVP.

Firstly I will explain my information in the hopes I am just wrong and someone can point to that.

Spell Resistance is hard capped at 50%, reaching the hardcap is very difficult due to the soft-cap and diminishing returns.
Focus rating for most sorcerer or light armour builds is 40-50% spell penetration, making it overcome the entirety of a players spell resistance in PVP.

So am I just wrong in this regard or is it really pointless trying to build spell resistance up when most of the strong DPS builds will smash through with completely any way.

Rylana

AFAIK its 42% of the existing resistance.

So if you had 50% resistance, and someone hits you with an attack with 42% spell pen, then youd still mitigate 29% of it.

50 * .42 = 21 (so youd lose 21 percent of that existing resistance)

Turelus

Thanks for the fast answer Rylana, that seems a little bit more acceptable!
I have been snooping about on both these forums and Tamriel Foundry but didn't have much luck finding information (I could just be useless :P).

Rylana

I cant guarantee my information is even correct, however. Formulae used in this game are not readily available, and most people base what they have "figured out" on anecdotal testing without a reliable combat logging system.

Its very difficult to test actual mechanics in this game (especially when a lot of mechanics have been bugged/broken at various times since beta)

DeLindsay

Rylana wrote: »

AFAIK its 42% of the existing resistance.

So if you had 50% resistance, and someone hits you with an attack with 42% spell pen, then youd still mitigate 29% of it.

50 * .42 = 21 (so youd lose 21 percent of that existing resistance)

You are correct. All penetration is a % of what value you have. It is possible for ArPen to exceed 100% and render you naked but only for a short duration and no single player can maintain that continuously. Most ArPen is also cleansable. SPen however is not cleansable at current as it's a static value built into Light Armor, Destruction Staff and Weapon Trait (although most don't use that trait).

Armitas

Some testing on tamriel foundry reveals that 50% spell penetration completely wipes out all spell resist. The testing is not perfect. So if you are hard capped at 50% spell resist, and the player has 50% spell penetration then it will be as if you have no spell resist (if the test is accurate).

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/spell-penetration-testing-in-pvp-first-results/

Turelus

The link above is the one I was reading which had me worried, it really made it seem like spell resistance was complete waste to try and boost as it was easily overcome by a good player with spell penetration.

I really wish ZOS would actually get involved and give us the mechanics of how this worked. I hate the MMO's these days try to hide mechanics rather than just giving players information needed to help them improve and enjoy the game.

glavius

Yes spell resist are pretty much useless. Only thing I did not test was above 2300 resist.

glavius

Only thing resists will be usefull against will be gimped builds like a medium or heavy armor caster.

Turelus

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno any way you can pass this thread onto a team which could give us an official answer on how it currently works and if it is indeed working as glavius has stated (which his research seems to confirm) any chance it could be changed to make it actually beneficial to have defences in PVP.

Maybe @ZOS_BrianWheeler would also be able to comment on if this is working as intended or something you want to address for PVP within ESO.

glavius

On a side note i tested armor also. It is somewhat more useful, but since few people use physical attacks only slightly so.
Also, everyone has default 300 armor penetration in pvp.
Basically you can ignore light armor with gold penetration trait on weapons combined with the 300 default pvp debuff.
And you can ignore around 1600 armor give or take with a 40% weapon debuff combined with gold penetration trait and pvp debuff.

Armitas

Tested myself just now and confirming Glavius's results.

Cody

its pretty much useless. LA users(which is about 80-90% of the population atm) penetrate 42% of your spell resistance. not to mention the hard caps and all that lovely stuff. I have 1734 spell resis. and its overcharged, and I still seem to take a crap ton of damage from magic, more than I should. when you put in the 42% spell penetration, I ACTUALLY resist somewhere along the lines of maybe 868. which is not very much at all. and again, you have to put in the hard caps along with it. its something ZOS needs to work on. they can start by lowering that ridiculously big penetration percentage.

Turelus

According to add-ons I am using at 2149 SR I'm at 33.6% spell resistance, meaning the basic 42% from armour negates the soft-cap (1930) entirely.
With unstoppable I reach 2662 SR which is 42%.

Either this is a bug and not working as intended or the game was never written with the intent that players defend again spells in PVP, considering spells are a majority of the PVP abilities this only goes again to be another boost for Magicka/LR/Staff builds.

glavius

Actually you resist absolutely nothing with 1734 resists vs 42% spell penetration...

Jaxom

So a penetration stat on a weapon seems to be more usefull than the 5-6% crit you get with precise.

Erock25

Jaxom wrote: »

So a penetration stat on a weapon seems to be more usefull than the 5-6% crit you get with precise.

But if you already have he 42% from light armor, you are gaining nothing from penetration on weapon unless going up against someone wellllll into the softcap.

Jaxom

Erock25 wrote: »

Jaxom wrote: »

So a penetration stat on a weapon seems to be more usefull than the 5-6% crit you get with precise.

But if you already have he 42% from light armor, you are gaining nothing from penetration on weapon unless going up against someone wellllll into the softcap.

What if you are using Medium?

Turelus

Jaxom wrote: »

So a penetration stat on a weapon seems to be more usefull than the 5-6% crit you get with precise.

That depends on how much your opponent is boosting his Spell Resistance, most players won't push it too far past soft-cap which is about 35% getting it over 40% means a player has to use skills and have an investment in the attributes via Passives or Enchantments to start with.

Assuming you're a light armour user with the Concentration passive there isn't a great need to pump Spell Penetration much higher as you're already going to fully negate the defences of anyone not pushing it to the limits.

An example of the effort involved:
My character has full heavy armour (I know, don't start on me) giving me bonus spell resistance and using an enchantment on my necklace.

VR12 Dunmer Nightblade Spell Resistance.
1320 Basic Resistance (checked after last reset with no gear).
+231 Resolve Passive with seven heavy armour pieces.
+600 Necklace Enchantment.
+5% Defensive Scroll Bonus II
Total 1993+400/1660 37.9% New base value.
Unstoppable IV +1150
Total 2469+1204/1660 47.4% boosted value.
Unstoppable IV +1150
Ring of Preservation IV +500
Total 2818+1968/1660 50.0% boosted value.

Turelus

Double Post!

BTW if there are any EU DC/AD players who want to sit and try the actual numbers with me just shoot me a mail/whisper in game on @Turelus and we can find a quiet place to test numbers.

I really hope to see this recognised and addressed soon though it's the little things like this which really just make me consider leaving for a better refined or longer established game.

glavius

While this seems like a broken mechanic, I actually prefere it to the alternative where resists would actually matter. Light armor users (arguably already top of the food chain in pvp) would gain an even bigger advantage by having high spell resists compared to medium and heavy armor users.

Jaxom

Turelus wrote: »

Jaxom wrote: »

So a penetration stat on a weapon seems to be more usefull than the 5-6% crit you get with precise.

That depends on how much your opponent is boosting his Spell Resistance, most players won't push it too far past soft-cap which is about 35% getting it over 40% means a player has to use skills and have an investment in the attributes via Passives or Enchantments to start with.

Assuming you're a light armour user with the Concentration passive there isn't a great need to pump Spell Penetration much higher as you're already going to fully negate the defences of anyone not pushing it to the limits.

An example of the effort involved:
My character has full heavy armour (I know, don't start on me) giving me bonus spell resistance and using an enchantment on my necklace.

VR12 Dunmer Nightblade Spell Resistance.
1320 Basic Resistance (checked after last reset with no gear).
+231 Resolve Passive with seven heavy armour pieces.
+600 Necklace Enchantment.
+5% Defensive Scroll Bonus II
Total 1993+400/1660 37.9% New base value.
Unstoppable IV +1150
Total 2469+1204/1660 47.4% boosted value.
Unstoppable IV +1150
Ring of Preservation IV +500
Total 2818+1968/1660 50.0% boosted value.

Awesome. Thanks Turelus. I'm AD but I'm on the NA Megaserver, otherwise, I'd have no problem testing it out. What you are thoughts about adding the Sharpened trait if you are a Medium Armor user? Seems like in the current meta of everyone stacking Inpen, the extra base damage you do would be more advantageous than the crit, at least right now.

Kewljag_66_ESO

I have to wonder if the system works like it did in DAOC with a spell type debuff. meaning it doenst just take you to 0 but puts you in the negative to take more damage. if that was the case then any spell resist would be helpful to keep you as much as possible out of the negative spell vulnerability.

Erock25

Kewljag_66_ESO wrote: »

I have to wonder if the system works like it did in DAOC with a spell type debuff. meaning it doenst just take you to 0 but puts you in the negative to take more damage. if that was the case then any spell resist would be helpful to keep you as much as possible out of the negative spell vulnerability.

The linked Tamriel Foundry topic suggests that you do not go into negative resistance.

Xsorus

Jaxom wrote: »

So a penetration stat on a weapon seems to be more usefull than the 5-6% crit you get with precise.

Depends on the weapon

2 Handed users should be running Powered 100% of the time with a Disease Enchant.

Galrukh

It can not be by design that LA wearers ignore spell resistance entirely, why even have the damn stat in the game then ?
Everybody and their grandmother knows that LA is by far the best armor to wear in the game so naturally the vast majority wears it and thus completely ignores spell resistance. If everyone ignores it then remove it entirely so people arent fooled into thinking its a viable stat.

I lose more and more faith in ZOS every day I play this game, how does *** like this EVER make it through testing ?

Cody

glavius wrote: »

Actually you resist absolutely nothing with 1734 resists vs 42% spell penetration...

so I picked a Breton for nothing?? bah!

Nermy

Turelus wrote: »

Thanks for the fast answer Rylana, that seems a little bit more acceptable!
I have been snooping about on both these forums and Tamriel Foundry but didn't have much luck finding information (I could just be useless :P).

Nah... yer just useless...

Nexus66

NookyZooky wrote: »

glavius wrote: »

Actually you resist absolutely nothing with 1734 resists vs 42% spell penetration...

so I picked a Breton for nothing?? bah!

Me to , bah Zeni give me Cat than ... Yes?

Armitas

Has anyone tested player mitigations (pvp set) and nord damage reduction? I'm curious if those can be penetrated.

CapuchinSeven

So does this make Marked Target worth using if you're in medium armour?