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Justice System and Wayshrines
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Tannakaobi✭✭✭✭✭Tannakaobi wrote: »snip
The point being anything that allows a player to circumvent needing to trade to a fence (trading stolen items to players, depositing stolen items in banks, crafting with stolen items) or escape confiscation of goods if caught or worse - escape any consequences at all (wayshrines/porting) is an exploit loophole and needs to be closed.
But that's the thing, it's not an exploit. Nothing you have said is exploitation, other than passing goods down to alts to level them up through the bank.
You seem to have exploitation and options confused.2 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Tannakaobi wrote: »Tannakaobi wrote: »snip
The point being anything that allows a player to circumvent needing to trade to a fence (trading stolen items to players, depositing stolen items in banks, crafting with stolen items) or escape confiscation of goods if caught or worse - escape any consequences at all (wayshrines/porting) is an exploit loophole and needs to be closed.
But that's the thing, it's not an exploit. Nothing you have said is exploitation, other than passing goods down to alts to level them up through the bank.
You seem to have exploitation and options confused.
Those are exploits - you seem to have hacking and exploits confused.
An exploit is simply something that allows a person to bypass a more difficult mechanic.
Incidentally if we want to talk options then let's have pve options for consequences, rather than pvp consequences only. Otherwise if you want to talk exploits then let's continue discussing using a rightclick on wayshrine when opening your map up inside a building after killing all the NPCs or looting a ton of stuff, or travel to player or enter Cyrodiil campaign as ways to bypass consequences in the justice system.2 -
BBSooner✭✭✭✭✭
✭Shrug, I could dump my stolen wares in my chest in skyrim and not lose them when I get caught. I don't see why it should be different in ESO. I don't think anybody is going to get rich by using valuable bank space to store stolen white items that fence for probably half their original worth.
As for using a wayshrine, if they are prevented from using one while a bounty is present we'll have players suiciding to lose the bounty - and that's not fun for either side of the fight.2 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭we'll have players suiciding to lose the bounty
Not sure a suicide is going to allow people to lose the bounty. But this is a good point - can't let players suicide to exploit their way to a wayshrine either. Guess the best way around this would be for them to end up back at the wayshrine in town getting instantly greeted by NPC guards.Edited by babylon on July 30, 2014 7:15PM1 -
Anastasia✭✭✭✭smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »This thread is just one big cluster^%#@ of people trying to brainstorm ways to make IC punishments for criminals not fun on an ooc level. Of course you should be able to trade, craft, or store stolen items in the bank, and most definitely should be able to use wayshrines
No this thread is about closing exploit loopholes, not reducing your "fun", unless your fun is only found by exploiting systems and escaping consequences.
Wasn't this the whole reason why player guards are touted as the ultimate answer to the justice system - so that players can't escape consequences.
This thread is simply trying to show where possible flaws in the system might lie.
We've discussed how trading to players/banking and crafting with stolen goods will be an exploit, and how use of wayshrines and porting also allows exploits, so these things definitely need to be off limits to a criminal.
snip
You didn't address any of the points I raised at all.
I did
No you didn't, you could try to address them. Go ahead, try,
oh well since you dared me... Look, reread my post and respond to the points I made. If you don't believe I addressed your completely invalid points, nothing I can do about it, can't keep going in circles over it.
Let's see - here are the points you made:smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »Of course you should be able to trade, craft, or store stolen items in the bank, and most definitely should be able to use wayshrines.smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »you can't even run from one faction to another faction or to coldharbour, that is absurd.
Hmm, you make a strong case for "most definitely" and "of course" and "absurd". This really needs to be given much consideration, you have explained your position well.
And here are my "completely invalid points" -
Points on closing exploit loopholes -
Use of wayshrines/porting to player/entering Cyrodiil campaign:
I mean I'd just steal something after killing all the NPCs in a room, gaining a massive bounty...then rclick my map and port to a new town/zone where my bounty is zero. All too easy to exploit.
Crafting with stolen items:
Keeping stolen goods not able to be crafted with will close another exploit loophole (offloading goods before being caught and making money off them without needing to find a fence), same as not being able to trade or bank them.
Also I think there would be some concern that crafting with stolen items could make a flagged stolen item that was worth even more to a fence, which would also be an exploit (you could use one stolen item to make a far more valuable flagged as stolen item to level Thieves Guild faster, should that be how we level it).
Trading stolen goods to another player:
You shouldn't be able to trade stolen goods at all, or people will be selling their fence goods to randoms who then use them to exploit their way up the Thieves Guild (if this is how it's leveled) without doing any of the work themselves.
Also if you ran with a friend you could just trade all the stolen goods to them so even if you got caught you wouldn't lose any of the stolen goods through confiscation.
Banking stolen goods:
You'd be able to trade your stolen goods to an alt in another town, who could then gain gold or Thieves Guild levels (if this is how it's done) without doing any of the work themselves. You could also then deposit and withdraw yourself in other towns without fear of confiscation.
Selling stolen goods to an NPC who isn't a fence:
Selling to a non-fence NPC would allow a player to make money faster without fear of losing the items to confiscation.
Dear Devs:
Please dilute the current plan you have for the Justice System because you did not consider the feelings of those who want everything to be completely fair.
Signed,
A player who needs protection, equity and fun provided for him continuously.
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babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »This thread is just one big cluster^%#@ of people trying to brainstorm ways to make IC punishments for criminals not fun on an ooc level. Of course you should be able to trade, craft, or store stolen items in the bank, and most definitely should be able to use wayshrines
No this thread is about closing exploit loopholes, not reducing your "fun", unless your fun is only found by exploiting systems and escaping consequences.
Wasn't this the whole reason why player guards are touted as the ultimate answer to the justice system - so that players can't escape consequences.
This thread is simply trying to show where possible flaws in the system might lie.
We've discussed how trading to players/banking and crafting with stolen goods will be an exploit, and how use of wayshrines and porting also allows exploits, so these things definitely need to be off limits to a criminal.
snip
You didn't address any of the points I raised at all.
I did
No you didn't, you could try to address them. Go ahead, try,
oh well since you dared me... Look, reread my post and respond to the points I made. If you don't believe I addressed your completely invalid points, nothing I can do about it, can't keep going in circles over it.
Let's see - here are the points you made:smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »Of course you should be able to trade, craft, or store stolen items in the bank, and most definitely should be able to use wayshrines.smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »you can't even run from one faction to another faction or to coldharbour, that is absurd.
Hmm, you make a strong case for "most definitely" and "of course" and "absurd". This really needs to be given much consideration, you have explained your position well.
And here are my "completely invalid points" -
Points on closing exploit loopholes -
Use of wayshrines/porting to player/entering Cyrodiil campaign:
I mean I'd just steal something after killing all the NPCs in a room, gaining a massive bounty...then rclick my map and port to a new town/zone where my bounty is zero. All too easy to exploit.
Crafting with stolen items:
Keeping stolen goods not able to be crafted with will close another exploit loophole (offloading goods before being caught and making money off them without needing to find a fence), same as not being able to trade or bank them.
Also I think there would be some concern that crafting with stolen items could make a flagged stolen item that was worth even more to a fence, which would also be an exploit (you could use one stolen item to make a far more valuable flagged as stolen item to level Thieves Guild faster, should that be how we level it).
Trading stolen goods to another player:
You shouldn't be able to trade stolen goods at all, or people will be selling their fence goods to randoms who then use them to exploit their way up the Thieves Guild (if this is how it's leveled) without doing any of the work themselves.
Also if you ran with a friend you could just trade all the stolen goods to them so even if you got caught you wouldn't lose any of the stolen goods through confiscation.
Banking stolen goods:
You'd be able to trade your stolen goods to an alt in another town, who could then gain gold or Thieves Guild levels (if this is how it's done) without doing any of the work themselves. You could also then deposit and withdraw yourself in other towns without fear of confiscation.
Selling stolen goods to an NPC who isn't a fence:
Selling to a non-fence NPC would allow a player to make money faster without fear of losing the items to confiscation.
Dear Devs:
Please dilute the current plan you have for the Justice System because you did not consider the feelings of those who want everything to be completely fair.
Signed,
A player who needs protection, equity and fun provided for him continuously.
Closing exploit loopholes is hardly dilution of plans for the justice system - that would be like saying ZOS implementing anti-bot moves was diluting the server diversity.
Unless as it's looking more and more like, your whole plan was to find ways to avoid consequences for your action...it really is looking like where all the noise is coming from. So much for "player guards is to ensure people don't escape consequences you pve players are just trying to have easy mode". Seems as if the pvp players are becoming afraid they will have consequences if these quite obvious loopholes are closed, and they don't like that.0 -
smeeprocketnub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »This thread is just one big cluster^%#@ of people trying to brainstorm ways to make IC punishments for criminals not fun on an ooc level. Of course you should be able to trade, craft, or store stolen items in the bank, and most definitely should be able to use wayshrines
No this thread is about closing exploit loopholes, not reducing your "fun", unless your fun is only found by exploiting systems and escaping consequences.
Wasn't this the whole reason why player guards are touted as the ultimate answer to the justice system - so that players can't escape consequences.
This thread is simply trying to show where possible flaws in the system might lie.
We've discussed how trading to players/banking and crafting with stolen goods will be an exploit, and how use of wayshrines and porting also allows exploits, so these things definitely need to be off limits to a criminal.
snip
You didn't address any of the points I raised at all.
I did
No you didn't, you could try to address them. Go ahead, try,
oh well since you dared me... Look, reread my post and respond to the points I made. If you don't believe I addressed your completely invalid points, nothing I can do about it, can't keep going in circles over it.
Let's see - here are the points you made:smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »Of course you should be able to trade, craft, or store stolen items in the bank, and most definitely should be able to use wayshrines.smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »you can't even run from one faction to another faction or to coldharbour, that is absurd.
Hmm, you make a strong case for "most definitely" and "of course" and "absurd". This really needs to be given much consideration, you have explained your position well.
And here are my "completely invalid points" -
Points on closing exploit loopholes -
Use of wayshrines/porting to player/entering Cyrodiil campaign:
I mean I'd just steal something after killing all the NPCs in a room, gaining a massive bounty...then rclick my map and port to a new town/zone where my bounty is zero. All too easy to exploit.
This is not an exploit. It is a feature.
Crafting with stolen items:
Keeping stolen goods not able to be crafted with will close another exploit loophole (offloading goods before being caught and making money off them without needing to find a fence), same as not being able to trade or bank them.
Also I think there would be some concern that crafting with stolen items could make a flagged stolen item that was worth even more to a fence, which would also be an exploit (you could use one stolen item to make a far more valuable flagged as stolen item to level Thieves Guild faster, should that be how we level it).
the items got like a 1 gold boost. They would have to code in a significant increase in value and it still wouldn't be worth as much as you would get from players. Feature, not an exploit.
Trading stolen goods to another player:
You shouldn't be able to trade stolen goods at all, or people will be selling their fence goods to randoms who then use them to exploit their way up the Thieves Guild (if this is how it's leveled) without doing any of the work themselves.
Also if you ran with a friend you could just trade all the stolen goods to them so even if you got caught you wouldn't lose any of the stolen goods through confiscation.
I don't think the devs see it as an issue if you trade off the goods. No problem there, the idea isn't to make sure you can never use your ill-gotten gains for anything ever. Did you even play as a thief in any of the TES games?
Working your way up the thieves guild, something we have no details on, will probably involve the actual act of stealing, but let's just throw around baseless conjecture for fun.
Banking stolen goods:
You'd be able to trade your stolen goods to an alt in another town, who could then gain gold or Thieves Guild levels (if this is how it's done) without doing any of the work themselves. You could also then deposit and withdraw yourself in other towns without fear of confiscation.
Selling stolen goods to an NPC who isn't a fence:
Selling to a non-fence NPC would allow a player to make money faster without fear of losing the items to confiscation.
As I said, the value of the items is minuscule unless they add in specific items for theft which they may as a source of income, but why is this a problem. The banking thing I already discussed above.
You keep modifying and snipping my quotes, please stop doing that.Dear Sister, I do not spread rumors, I create them.1 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Let's address your post point by point.smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »snip
Use of wayshrines/porting to player/entering Cyrodiil campaign:smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »This is not an exploit. It is a feature.
Compelling argument
Not. Because this would be a great way to avoid any guard finding the thief/murderer at all, because they could just port away before anyone could get to them. Which is avoiding consequences...and as we know avoiding consequences is not what we want in a justice system, or there would be no justice.
Crafting with stolen items:
The point of not allowing crafting is to ensure a player does not have an easy "out" by stopping at a nearby crafting table right in town instead of needing to go out of town to find the fence, let alone be able to make even more money and/or use the the stolen item in a more expensive recipe as a way to level Thieves Guild faster than the stolen item alone would fetch, if that's how it's done.smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »the items got like a 1 gold boost. They would have to code in a significant increase in value and it still wouldn't be worth as much as you would get from players. Feature, not an exploit.
Trading stolen goods to another player:smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »I don't think the devs see it as an issue if you trade off the goods.
The devs have stated clearly we will need to find a fence out of town in order to sell the stolen goods. I don't think you know what the devs are thinking at all.
Obviously trading goods would allow people to escape the consequences because you could dump a ton of stolen items in your friend's bag who has no bounty so they could shift the goods for you (or for themselves), with no risk of confiscation.
Selling stolen goods to an NPC who isn't a fence:smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »As I said, the value of the items is minuscule unless they add in specific items for theft which they may as a source of income, but why is this a problem.
As I said above - the devs want players to go out of their way in order to shift the stolen goods, rather than have easy access to any shop NPC, so it's not a matter of how much money you can get for the items - it's being able to avoid confiscation should a player go on a large thieving and murder spree and have a lot of stolen items on him at the time - the point is these items should be taken off you which is supposed to be a punishment for getting caught. If you can easily sell them to any shop NPC people will be doing this every few items they steal, instead of needing to run off out of town with a larger haul if they're lucky enough to not get caught in the first place.
Edited by babylon on July 30, 2014 9:27PM0 -
smeeprocketnub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm not even going to bother breaking down your post because you are just repeating things you have said before.
There is a difference between making a system that has IC consequences but is fun to play, and actually punishing players with real punishments for playing a part of the game you developed in the way you developed it for.
It is okay for players to escape justice, it is okay for players to stash their loot, evading the consequences is just as viable as facing them.
You have manufactured this manner in which the thieves guild will level up that is entirely in your own mind, and I highly doubt it is anything like the devs have planned, I assumed they would level you based on your own successful thefts. If you are thinking it will be like oblivion where it is the amount of fenced goods, that's possible, but the stolen flag will probably be dropped if you trade it to another player. (which is not a bad thing, otherwise uninvolved players end up getting stuff they bought confiscated if they steal small things.)
The ideas you present would make the entire act of theft and murder so crippling it would not be worth it to anyone. The key is -in character- consequences. It should always still be fun to play.Dear Sister, I do not spread rumors, I create them.3 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »It is okay for players to escape justice, it is okay for players to stash their loot, evading the consequences is just as viable as facing them.
Through legitimate means, but not through exploits and cheesing their way out of consequences.
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KariTR✭✭✭✭✭Tannakaobi wrote: »Tannakaobi wrote: »snip
The point being anything that allows a player to circumvent needing to trade to a fence (trading stolen items to players, depositing stolen items in banks, crafting with stolen items) or escape confiscation of goods if caught or worse - escape any consequences at all (wayshrines/porting) is an exploit loophole and needs to be closed.
But that's the thing, it's not an exploit. Nothing you have said is exploitation, other than passing goods down to alts to level them up through the bank.
You seem to have exploitation and options confused.
Those are exploits - you seem to have hacking and exploits confused.
An exploit is simply something that allows a person to bypass a more difficult mechanic.
Incidentally if we want to talk options then let's have pve options for consequences, rather than pvp consequences only. Otherwise if you want to talk exploits then let's continue discussing using a rightclick on wayshrine when opening your map up inside a building after killing all the NPCs or looting a ton of stuff, or travel to player or enter Cyrodiil campaign as ways to bypass consequences in the justice system.
Do you never pass items to your alts to research or deconstruct for crafting exp? If you do (and I certainly do), then I see no difference.
If I steal an item and 'get away with it', it shouldn't be flagged any differently than any other item I carry.1 -
smeeprocketnub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »It is okay for players to escape justice, it is okay for players to stash their loot, evading the consequences is just as viable as facing them.
Through legitimate means, but not through exploits and cheesing their way out of consequences.
your idea of exploits and "cheesing" seem to be things that when implemented will be working as intended.Dear Sister, I do not spread rumors, I create them.2 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Do you never pass items to your alts to research or deconstruct for crafting exp? If you do (and I certainly do), then I see no difference.
Because this is a "justice" system, where players need to be accountable for their actions. If you can progress your alt by banking/trading stolen items without them risking anything then it's circumventing the whole concept of justice.
That's where the difference is.Edited by babylon on July 30, 2014 9:45PM1 -
KariTR✭✭✭✭✭Do you never pass items to your alts to research or deconstruct for crafting exp? If you do (and I certainly do), then I see no difference.
Because this is a "justice" system, where players need to be accountable for their actions. If you can progress your alt by banking/trading stolen items without them risking anything then it's circumventing the whole concept of justice.
That's where the difference is.
You are only accountable if you are caught.If I steal an item and 'get away with it', it shouldn't be flagged any differently than any other item I carry.
Conveniently, you snipped that pertinent part from my post. Get your fingers out of your ears.2 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »It is okay for players to escape justice, it is okay for players to stash their loot, evading the consequences is just as viable as facing them.
Through legitimate means, but not through exploits and cheesing their way out of consequences.
your idea of exploits and "cheesing" seem to be things that when implemented will be working as intended.
I'm sure you're hoping it will be easymode. It's clear that's what you're wanting.
If the exploits and cheese exists then the justice in this justice system will be far too easy to bypass.1 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
If you steal an item and "get away with it" the devs have stated your deal is now to get this stolen item to a fence.If I steal an item and 'get away with it', it shouldn't be flagged any differently than any other item I carry.
Conveniently, you snipped that pertinent part from my post. Get your fingers out of your ears.
What's with the hostility?1