Justice System and Wayshrines

babylon · July 2014

Enodoc wrote: »

@babylon‌ you haven't yet commented on my alleviations to the crafting and trading issues you state, I'd like to know what you think

Crafting with stolen items would be fine if you flagged the product(s) as stolen.

Trading would apply a bounty to the player who received the stolen items. Selling a stolen item to a fence if you've got it from a friend will not level your Thieves Guild, but selling your own stolen item would.

I think there would be some concern that crafting with stolen items could make a flagged stolen item that was worth even more to a fence, which would also be an exploit (you could use one stolen item to make a far more valuable flagged as stolen item to level Thieves Guild faster, should that be how we level it).

It would still be better to leave the fence as the only way to move a stolen item, with no crafting/trading/banking of those items possible.

Anastasia · July 2014

babylon wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Maybe banks cannot hold stolen goods.

Stolen goods needs to be unsellable/untradeable/non-storable in bank, and should not be able to be crafted with, or people would just run with a friend and offload the stolen goods to the friend, dump it all in the bank, or simply use the items at a trade station.

Devs already explained there WILL be 'fences' to off stolen goods at

.

babylon · July 2014

Anastasia wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Maybe banks cannot hold stolen goods.

Stolen goods needs to be unsellable/untradeable/non-storable in bank, and should not be able to be crafted with, or people would just run with a friend and offload the stolen goods to the friend, dump it all in the bank, or simply use the items at a trade station.

Devs already explained there WILL be 'fences' to off stolen goods at .

Yes, we've already discussed this, did you only just google that?

Anastasia · July 2014

KariTR wrote: »

I also don't see an issue with banking stolen items. If we get caught, our stolen items can be as easily confiscated from the bank as they can our bags (ref: the crafting system already in place)

Yep absolutely could. Devs already explained how if a guard catches you, if and when you decide to 'pay' the fine, the loot/goods you stole will disappear from your bags

So KariTR's idea seems very plausible as well. I agree for the thief idea to work as the designers have been discussing, the mechanics have to be fleshed out a LITTLE...if you can't store it, or craft with it and possibly can only sell it to a fence for trivial coin...ehh. (*)

Anastasia · July 2014

babylon wrote: »

Anastasia wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Maybe banks cannot hold stolen goods.

Stolen goods needs to be unsellable/untradeable/non-storable in bank, and should not be able to be crafted with, or people would just run with a friend and offload the stolen goods to the friend, dump it all in the bank, or simply use the items at a trade station.

Devs already explained there WILL be 'fences' to off stolen goods at .

Yes, we've already discussed this, did you only just google that?

Charming reply.

No, I just wanted to post it as an answer to Enodoc.

Perhaps the others were answering at the same time as me.

babylon · July 2014

Anastasia wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

Anastasia wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Maybe banks cannot hold stolen goods.

Stolen goods needs to be unsellable/untradeable/non-storable in bank, and should not be able to be crafted with, or people would just run with a friend and offload the stolen goods to the friend, dump it all in the bank, or simply use the items at a trade station.

Devs already explained there WILL be 'fences' to off stolen goods at .

Yes, we've already discussed this, did you only just google that?

Charming reply.

No, I just wanted to post it as an answer to Enodoc. Perhaps the others were answering at the same time as me.

Then quote Enodoc and not me. Also we'd already discussed this between us - if you read the rest of the thread you'd see he was already a step ahead of your understanding of this system.

gurluasb16_ESO · July 2014

Normally you can't use wayshrines when in combat..
So I don't see a Burglar being able to run off if engaged.

babylon · July 2014

gurluasb16_ESO wrote: »

Normally you can't use wayshrines when in combat..
So I don't see a Burglar being able to run off if engaged.

Even if not engaged (say if a player has killed all surrounding pursuers) someone with a bounty should not be able to use wayshrines.

I could kill all the NPCs in a room and loot everything, rake in a massive bounty...then rclick a wayshrine on my map and just port away to a place where I have no bounty...then casually offload my loot and walk away entirely unscathed otherwise.

gurluasb16_ESO · July 2014

You can do that in other ES games like Skyrim too, but you cant return in the original place until your bounty is down.

babylon · July 2014

gurluasb16_ESO wrote: »

You can do that in other ES games like Skyrim too, but you cant return in the original place until your bounty is down.

If it's like other Elder Scrolls games then you could pay off the bounty casually at the fence/contact - so porting out then casually walking up to a fence in another town (where you have no pursuers) would be the way to go. So being able to use a wayshrine at all will be a massive loophole in the system allowing people to entirely circumvent any consequences.

It'll have to be no porting to wayshrines/no use of wayshrines/no porting to dungeons/no porting to group or guildmates/no joining campaign in Cyrodiil.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO · July 2014

This thread is just one big cluster^%#@ of people trying to brainstorm ways to make IC punishments for criminals not fun on an ooc level. Of course you should be able to trade, craft, or store stolen items in the bank, and most definitely should be able to use wayshrines. you can't even run from one faction to another faction or to coldharbour, that is absurd.

The actual topic this should have been about is will there be problems with players camping other player respawns at wayshrines.

babylon · July 2014

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

This thread is just one big cluster^%#@ of people trying to brainstorm ways to make IC punishments for criminals not fun on an ooc level. Of course you should be able to trade, craft, or store stolen items in the bank, and most definitely should be able to use wayshrines

No this thread is about closing exploit loopholes, not reducing your "fun", unless your fun is only found by exploiting systems and escaping consequences.

Wasn't this the whole reason why player guards are touted as the ultimate answer to the justice system - so that players can't escape consequences.

This thread is simply trying to show where possible flaws in the system might lie.

We've discussed how trading to players/banking and crafting with stolen goods will be an exploit, and how use of wayshrines and porting also allows exploits, so these things definitely need to be off limits to a criminal.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO · July 2014

babylon wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

This thread is just one big cluster^%#@ of people trying to brainstorm ways to make IC punishments for criminals not fun on an ooc level. Of course you should be able to trade, craft, or store stolen items in the bank, and most definitely should be able to use wayshrines

No this thread is about closing exploit loopholes, not reducing your "fun", unless your fun is only found by exploiting systems and escaping consequences.

Wasn't this the whole reason why player guards are touted as the ultimate answer to the justice system - so that players can't escape consequences.

This thread is simply trying to show where possible flaws in the system might lie.

We've discussed how trading to players/banking and crafting with stolen goods will be an exploit, and how use of wayshrines and porting also allows exploits, so these things definitely need to be off limits to a criminal.

these aren't loopholes or exploits. A lot of the stuff you steal is worth 1 gold. That is, they gave a 1 gold value to some valueless provisioning items.

Why on earth would it be a loophole not to be forced to keep stolen goods on you all the time taking up inventory space, or not be able to craft with them when that is the only thing they are good for, or prohibit you from trading with another player which some of the item's worth only comes into play in the player economy.

There's a difference between consequences in a game and actual punishment. It is clear that some of you are incapable of telling the difference.

You should be able to flee to a bank and deposit stolen goods there, but if a guard catches you, based on the current mechanics of the game, you will be fleeing all the way to the next town to do it.

Player guards do not exist so you can't escape consequences, you escape those if you don't get caught anyway, maybe they should make any theft attempt make you get caught 100% of the time? player guards exist to facilitate potential consequences that don't involve an ai you can trick, and to further conflict. They are there to make it more fun.

NONE of the things you listed are exploits and make stealing pointless.

babylon · July 2014

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

This thread is just one big cluster^%#@ of people trying to brainstorm ways to make IC punishments for criminals not fun on an ooc level. Of course you should be able to trade, craft, or store stolen items in the bank, and most definitely should be able to use wayshrines

No this thread is about closing exploit loopholes, not reducing your "fun", unless your fun is only found by exploiting systems and escaping consequences.

Wasn't this the whole reason why player guards are touted as the ultimate answer to the justice system - so that players can't escape consequences.

This thread is simply trying to show where possible flaws in the system might lie.

We've discussed how trading to players/banking and crafting with stolen goods will be an exploit, and how use of wayshrines and porting also allows exploits, so these things definitely need to be off limits to a criminal.

snip

You didn't address any of the points I raised at all.

Enodoc · July 2014

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

@babylon‌ you haven't yet commented on my alleviations to the crafting and trading issues you state, I'd like to know what you think

Crafting with stolen items would be fine if you flagged the product(s) as stolen.

Trading would apply a bounty to the player who received the stolen items. Selling a stolen item to a fence if you've got it from a friend will not level your Thieves Guild, but selling your own stolen item would.

I don't see why any of that would be necessary except the last thing (selling someone else's stolen goods shouldn't be a cheap way to level). But how on earth should anyone know if you used stolen wood to craft that shield? And how will the guards instantly find out that you received stolen goods through a private trade in order to apply a bounty?

I suppose it depends on how vigilant the guards are. Since you only get a bounty if you're detected, passing off stolen goods to someone else I guess wouldn't be able to incur any bounty. If you are detected when stealing and get a bounty, the guards will be after you, meaning that any other form of interaction (trade/bank/craft/wayshrine) would probably be unavailable anyway until you either pay off your bounty or resist arrest, which automatically triggers combat and you can't do any of those things in combat.

So the question now comes; I've escaped with my stolen goods and my 16500 gold bounty, if I pass off my goods to a friend, and clear my bounty, what happens to the goods? Can I just go and get them back from my friend again with no penalty? I've got my goods, but cleared my bounty. What happens next?

moxiesauce · July 2014

Haewk wrote: »

Akula wrote: »

I cant think of a reason why they couldn't.

Steal and get caught.
CC guard.
Run to bank and offload stolen stuff.
Pay bounty without losing stolen stuff.

Sit at the Wayshrine and kill NPCs.
Guards / player guards show up.
Port out.
Log alt in.
Check to see when things settle down.
Log bounty char in.
Port back to town.
Resume killing.

can't use stuff in combat? if you can.. they should fix that.

Vahrokh · July 2014

babylon wrote: »

You have to sell to a fence. You must've missed the memo, but they've been very clear in stating we will need to find a fence to sell the stolen items to.

So trading/crafting/banking this stolen stuff should be off the table or people will be able to bypass the fence altogether.

Sounds pretty bland. EvE Online got it right. People get "flagged" for criminal acts for a number of minutes and those helping them "inherit" the flag as well. Plus those flags renew if they keep doing bad stuff.

If they survive until the timer gets to zero then the flag disappears and they can do whatever with the stolen stuff. Much sandbox style.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO · July 2014

babylon wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

This thread is just one big cluster^%#@ of people trying to brainstorm ways to make IC punishments for criminals not fun on an ooc level. Of course you should be able to trade, craft, or store stolen items in the bank, and most definitely should be able to use wayshrines

No this thread is about closing exploit loopholes, not reducing your "fun", unless your fun is only found by exploiting systems and escaping consequences.

Wasn't this the whole reason why player guards are touted as the ultimate answer to the justice system - so that players can't escape consequences.

This thread is simply trying to show where possible flaws in the system might lie.

We've discussed how trading to players/banking and crafting with stolen goods will be an exploit, and how use of wayshrines and porting also allows exploits, so these things definitely need to be off limits to a criminal.

snip

You didn't address any of the points I raised at all.

first off, I did. Second, your points are not valid. Which I addressed.

babylon · July 2014

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

This thread is just one big cluster^%#@ of people trying to brainstorm ways to make IC punishments for criminals not fun on an ooc level. Of course you should be able to trade, craft, or store stolen items in the bank, and most definitely should be able to use wayshrines

No this thread is about closing exploit loopholes, not reducing your "fun", unless your fun is only found by exploiting systems and escaping consequences.

Wasn't this the whole reason why player guards are touted as the ultimate answer to the justice system - so that players can't escape consequences.

This thread is simply trying to show where possible flaws in the system might lie.

We've discussed how trading to players/banking and crafting with stolen goods will be an exploit, and how use of wayshrines and porting also allows exploits, so these things definitely need to be off limits to a criminal.

snip

You didn't address any of the points I raised at all.

I did

No you didn't, you could try to address them. Go ahead, try,

nerevarine1138 · July 2014

Enodoc wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

@babylon‌ you haven't yet commented on my alleviations to the crafting and trading issues you state, I'd like to know what you think

Crafting with stolen items would be fine if you flagged the product(s) as stolen.

Trading would apply a bounty to the player who received the stolen items. Selling a stolen item to a fence if you've got it from a friend will not level your Thieves Guild, but selling your own stolen item would.

I don't see why any of that would be necessary except the last thing (selling someone else's stolen goods shouldn't be a cheap way to level). But how on earth should anyone know if you used stolen wood to craft that shield? And how will the guards instantly find out that you received stolen goods through a private trade in order to apply a bounty?

I suppose it depends on how vigilant the guards are. Since you only get a bounty if you're detected, passing off stolen goods to someone else I guess wouldn't be able to incur any bounty. If you are detected when stealing and get a bounty, the guards will be after you, meaning that any other form of interaction (trade/bank/craft/wayshrine) would probably be unavailable anyway until you either pay off your bounty or resist arrest, which automatically triggers combat and you can't do any of those things in combat.

So the question now comes; I've escaped with my stolen goods and my 16500 gold bounty, if I pass off my goods to a friend, and clear my bounty, what happens to the goods? Can I just go and get them back from my friend again with no penalty? I've got my goods, but cleared my bounty. What happens next?

I don't agree with not being able to use wayshrines, since it's not like they have a magical barrier preventing criminals from getting to them. But I'm fairly certain that a bounty will prevent you from trading normally until you get it cleared. Which, if they follow prior games, will involve you getting to a Thieves Guild safehouse and paying a smaller fee to get the bounty removed.

babylon · July 2014

Vahrokh wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

You have to sell to a fence.

If they survive until the timer gets to zero then the flag disappears and they can do whatever with the stolen stuff.

We've been told the way it works in this game is we need to take stolen items to a fence. No mention of any timer.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO · July 2014

babylon wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

This thread is just one big cluster^%#@ of people trying to brainstorm ways to make IC punishments for criminals not fun on an ooc level. Of course you should be able to trade, craft, or store stolen items in the bank, and most definitely should be able to use wayshrines

No this thread is about closing exploit loopholes, not reducing your "fun", unless your fun is only found by exploiting systems and escaping consequences.

Wasn't this the whole reason why player guards are touted as the ultimate answer to the justice system - so that players can't escape consequences.

This thread is simply trying to show where possible flaws in the system might lie.

We've discussed how trading to players/banking and crafting with stolen goods will be an exploit, and how use of wayshrines and porting also allows exploits, so these things definitely need to be off limits to a criminal.

snip

You didn't address any of the points I raised at all.

I did

No you didn't, you could try to address them. Go ahead, try,

oh well since you dared me... Look, reread my post and respond to the points I made. If you don't believe I addressed your completely invalid points, nothing I can do about it, can't keep going in circles over it.

Also, you modified my quote.

cracker81 · July 2014

Haewk wrote: »

Akula wrote: »

I cant think of a reason why they couldn't.

Steal and get caught.
CC guard.
Run to bank and offload stolen stuff.
Pay bounty without losing stolen stuff.

Sit at the Wayshrine and kill NPCs.
Guards / player guards show up.
Port out.
Log alt in.
Check to see when things settle down.
Log bounty char in.
Port back to town.
Resume killing.

If no really draw back, to clear yourself of said crimes let a player kill you. No damage to armor. I just hope they put a prison in place or something. Ppl will take advantage of that. I can see it know a player griefing other players by attacking bank teller. Then his bodies a guard and kills him as soon Npc tries to. Then he Rez to repeat crime.

nerevarine1138 · July 2014

Haewk wrote: »

Akula wrote: »

I cant think of a reason why they couldn't.

Steal and get caught.
CC guard.
Run to bank and offload stolen stuff.
Pay bounty without losing stolen stuff.

Sit at the Wayshrine and kill NPCs.
Guards / player guards show up.
Port out.
Log alt in.
Check to see when things settle down.
Log bounty char in.
Port back to town.
Resume killing.

I think you're making that whole process sound a lot easier than it will be. For starters, there aren't many towns where NPCs congregate by the wayshrine.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO · July 2014

cracker81 wrote: »

Haewk wrote: »

Akula wrote: »

I cant think of a reason why they couldn't.

Steal and get caught.
CC guard.
Run to bank and offload stolen stuff.
Pay bounty without losing stolen stuff.

Sit at the Wayshrine and kill NPCs.
Guards / player guards show up.
Port out.
Log alt in.
Check to see when things settle down.
Log bounty char in.
Port back to town.
Resume killing.

If no really draw back, to clear yourself of said crimes let a player kill you. No damage to armor. I just hope they put a prison in place or something. Ppl will take advantage of that. I can see it know a player griefing other players by attacking bank teller. Then his bodies a guard and kills him as soon Npc tries to. Then he Rez to repeat crime.

yea it would be awesome if they put in a mechanic where you would be forced to stand in a small cell for a set amount of time doing nothing. Especially since the game doesn't have a wait command like the single player ones.

cracker81 · July 2014

Tannakaobi wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

Tannakaobi wrote: »

I'd like to think that you can trade with other thieves.

You shouldn't be able to trade stolen goods at all, or people will be selling their fence goods to randoms who then use them to exploit their way up the Thieves Guild (if this is how it's leveled) without doing any of the work themselves.

How would people use them to level? The leveling process would be in the actual stealing.

If you can't trade stolen goods with players then you will have no player made jobs which would be a huge loss. The word used to describe the justice system was sandbox. Zenimax want players to use it in unthinkable ways. Putting limitations like use of wayshrines and trade works against this.

It should state it is stolen, when you trading said item. If the person tries to sell it at vendor or guild store it would alert the guards. Player would have to do something to make it not stolen.

babylon · July 2014

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

This thread is just one big cluster^%#@ of people trying to brainstorm ways to make IC punishments for criminals not fun on an ooc level. Of course you should be able to trade, craft, or store stolen items in the bank, and most definitely should be able to use wayshrines

No this thread is about closing exploit loopholes, not reducing your "fun", unless your fun is only found by exploiting systems and escaping consequences.

Wasn't this the whole reason why player guards are touted as the ultimate answer to the justice system - so that players can't escape consequences.

This thread is simply trying to show where possible flaws in the system might lie.

We've discussed how trading to players/banking and crafting with stolen goods will be an exploit, and how use of wayshrines and porting also allows exploits, so these things definitely need to be off limits to a criminal.

snip

You didn't address any of the points I raised at all.

I did

No you didn't, you could try to address them. Go ahead, try,

oh well since you dared me... Look, reread my post and respond to the points I made. If you don't believe I addressed your completely invalid points, nothing I can do about it, can't keep going in circles over it.

Let's see - here are the points you made:

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

Of course you should be able to trade, craft, or store stolen items in the bank, and most definitely should be able to use wayshrines.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

you can't even run from one faction to another faction or to coldharbour, that is absurd.

Hmm, you make a strong case for "most definitely" and "of course" and "absurd". This really needs to be given much consideration, you have explained your position well.

And here are my "completely invalid points" -

Points on closing exploit loopholes -
Use of wayshrines/porting to player/entering Cyrodiil campaign:
I mean I'd just steal something after killing all the NPCs in a room, gaining a massive bounty...then rclick my map and port to a new town/zone where my bounty is zero. All too easy to exploit.

Crafting with stolen items:
Keeping stolen goods not able to be crafted with will close another exploit loophole (offloading goods before being caught and making money off them without needing to find a fence), same as not being able to trade or bank them.

Also I think there would be some concern that crafting with stolen items could make a flagged stolen item that was worth even more to a fence, which would also be an exploit (you could use one stolen item to make a far more valuable flagged as stolen item to level Thieves Guild faster, should that be how we level it).

Trading stolen goods to another player:
You shouldn't be able to trade stolen goods at all, or people will be selling their fence goods to randoms who then use them to exploit their way up the Thieves Guild (if this is how it's leveled) without doing any of the work themselves.

Also if you ran with a friend you could just trade all the stolen goods to them so even if you got caught you wouldn't lose any of the stolen goods through confiscation.

Banking stolen goods:
You'd be able to trade your stolen goods to an alt in another town, who could then gain gold or Thieves Guild levels (if this is how it's done) without doing any of the work themselves. You could also then deposit and withdraw yourself in other towns without fear of confiscation.

Selling stolen goods to an NPC who isn't a fence:
Selling to a non-fence NPC would allow a player to make money faster without fear of losing the items to confiscation.

Enodoc · July 2014

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

@babylon‌ you haven't yet commented on my alleviations to the crafting and trading issues you state, I'd like to know what you think

Crafting with stolen items would be fine if you flagged the product(s) as stolen.

Trading would apply a bounty to the player who received the stolen items. Selling a stolen item to a fence if you've got it from a friend will not level your Thieves Guild, but selling your own stolen item would.

I don't see why any of that would be necessary except the last thing (selling someone else's stolen goods shouldn't be a cheap way to level). But how on earth should anyone know if you used stolen wood to craft that shield? And how will the guards instantly find out that you received stolen goods through a private trade in order to apply a bounty?

I suppose it depends on how vigilant the guards are. Since you only get a bounty if you're detected, passing off stolen goods to someone else I guess wouldn't be able to incur any bounty. If you are detected when stealing and get a bounty, the guards will be after you, meaning that any other form of interaction (trade/bank/craft/wayshrine) would probably be unavailable anyway until you either pay off your bounty or resist arrest, which automatically triggers combat and you can't do any of those things in combat.

So the question now comes; I've escaped with my stolen goods and my 16500 gold bounty, if I pass off my goods to a friend, and clear my bounty, what happens to the goods? Can I just go and get them back from my friend again with no penalty? I've got my goods, but cleared my bounty. What happens next?

I don't agree with not being able to use wayshrines, since it's not like they have a magical barrier preventing criminals from getting to them. But I'm fairly certain that a bounty will prevent you from trading normally until you get it cleared. Which, if they follow prior games, will involve you getting to a Thieves Guild safehouse and paying a smaller fee to get the bounty removed.

I mean unable in the same way you can't do these things while in combat. If some guard has seen you, he's not going to be that far away, and will have /forcegreeting with you. A forced greeting may disable other actions simply because something else in happening, in the same way combat does. But if you manage to run away before he gets to you, and can therefore cancel that forced greeting because of your distance from him, then you have evaded and would be quite able to use a wayshrine. That's what I meant by guard's vigilance; detection and evasion capability.

Tannakaobi · July 2014

babylon wrote: »

Points on closing exploit loopholes -
Use of wayshrines/porting to player/entering Cyrodiil campaign:
I mean I'd just steal something after killing all the NPCs in a room, gaining a massive bounty...then rclick my map and port to a new town/zone where my bounty is zero. All too easy to exploit.

Firstly, you will need to clear the area. I would imagine if your bounty is high enough you will not be able to use the shrine if you can be seen. Secondly, who's to say if you can be tracked or not, or if you will loose the bounty in other area's? Although it has been so in the past Tes games, so probably will.

Crafting with stolen items:
Keeping stolen goods not able to be crafted with will close another exploit loophole (offloading goods before being caught and making money off them without needing to find a fence), same as not being able to trade or bank them.

I don't really see a problem, but an easy solution would be for the NPC fence to also sell the items back to other players as items that have not been stolen. This would drive the price down and only rare items would we valuable.

Also I think there would be some concern that crafting with stolen items could make a flagged stolen item that was worth even more to a fence, which would also be an exploit (you could use one stolen item to make a far more valuable flagged as stolen item to level Thieves Guild faster, should that be how we level it).

Yes, and that's sounds about right. It's no different to farming for any mats.

Trading stolen goods to another player:
You shouldn't be able to trade stolen goods at all, or people will be selling their fence goods to randoms who then use them to exploit their way up the Thieves Guild (if this is how it's leveled) without doing any of the work themselves.

I fail to see the problem, this would be a good thing as far as I'm concerned. A way around PVP if nothing more.

Also if you ran with a friend you could just trade all the stolen goods to them so even if you got caught you wouldn't lose any of the stolen goods through confiscation.

I would think the items themselves would also be detected if you were seen. If you are talking about the items you have already stolen that your friend has made off with after you have been seen, is that not just good strategic? Hardly exploiting.

Banking stolen goods:
You'd be able to trade your stolen goods to an alt in another town, who could then gain gold or Thieves Guild levels (if this is how it's done) without doing any of the work themselves. You could also then deposit and withdraw yourself in other towns without fear of confiscation.

I actually agree with you for once.

Banks should not store stolen items. This is a good reason, but also just because they would become criminals themselves if they did. A better option would be to have a paid storage box through the thieves guild. Alts would not have access.

Selling stolen goods to an NPC who isn't a fence:
Selling to a non-fence NPC would allow a player to make money faster without fear of losing the items to confiscation.

I doubt this will be possible. I like the idea someone else mentioned that you should be allowed to try only to be reported by the NPC.

Almost everything you said was speculation. We don't know the system, I really don't see much problem in anything you have said. Other than the one thing I agree on.

babylon · July 2014

Tannakaobi wrote: »

snip

The point being anything that allows a player to circumvent needing to trade to a fence (trading stolen items to players, depositing stolen items in banks, crafting with stolen items) or escape confiscation of goods if caught or worse - escape any consequences at all (wayshrines/porting) is an exploit loophole and needs to be closed.