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Justice System and Wayshrines

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  • fromtesonlineb16_ESO
    fromtesonlineb16_ESO
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    Tannakaobi wrote: »
    babylon wrote: »
    fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
    babylon wrote: »
    Enodoc wrote: »
    Maybe banks cannot hold stolen goods.

    Stolen goods needs to be unsellable/untradeable/non-storable in bank, and should not be able to be crafted with, or people would just run with a friend and offload the stolen goods to the friend, dump it all in the bank, or simply use the items at a trade station.
    ZIs have said there'll be 'fences'.

    Yes. Fences should be the only way to dispose of stolen goods - no trading stolen goods with players, no selling stolen goods to shops, no crafting with the stolen goods, no banking stolen goods.

    What possible reason would there be to not allow trade between players of stolen goods?
    Several .. prime one being there shouldn't be an incentive for this aberant playstyle.

  • babylon
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    Tannakaobi wrote: »
    babylon wrote: »
    fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
    babylon wrote: »
    Enodoc wrote: »
    Maybe banks cannot hold stolen goods.

    Stolen goods needs to be unsellable/untradeable/non-storable in bank, and should not be able to be crafted with, or people would just run with a friend and offload the stolen goods to the friend, dump it all in the bank, or simply use the items at a trade station.
    ZIs have said there'll be 'fences'.

    Yes. Fences should be the only way to dispose of stolen goods - no trading stolen goods with players, no selling stolen goods to shops, no crafting with the stolen goods, no banking stolen goods.

    What possible reason would there be to not allow trade between players of stolen goods?

    I explained this already. Again, it's so someone can't level their Thieves Guild (if this is how it's leveled) without doing any of the work themselves.

    Also if you ran with a friend you could just trade all the stolen goods to them so even if you got caught you wouldn't lose any of the stolen goods through confiscation.
    Edited by babylon on July 30, 2014 12:07PM
  • Enodoc
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    babylon wrote: »
    fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
    babylon wrote: »
    Enodoc wrote: »
    Maybe banks cannot hold stolen goods.

    Stolen goods needs to be unsellable/untradeable/non-storable in bank, and should not be able to be crafted with, or people would just run with a friend and offload the stolen goods to the friend, dump it all in the bank, or simply use the items at a trade station.
    ZIs have said there'll be 'fences'.

    Yes. Fences should be the only way to dispose of stolen goods - no trading stolen goods with players, no selling stolen goods to shops, no crafting with the stolen goods, no banking stolen goods.
    If Fences are the only way, stealing would be essentially pointless. You wouldn't make enough money quick enough from selling a few 1-gold stolen items.
    Having the bounty applied to any friend you offloaded stolen goods on would alleviate that problem, and flagging crafted items made with stolen goods as stolen as well would sort that out too.
    I think it's almost definite that you will be able to craft with stolen goods. It's the trading and the banking that we don't yet really know about.
    UESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
    Join us on Discord - discord.gg/uesp
  • Tannakaobi
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    babylon wrote: »

    I explained this already. Again, it's so someone can't level their Thieves Guild (if this is how it's leveled) without doing any of the work themselves.

    and why not? Does that not solve the issues you had with forced PVP? You explained it, it just does not make sense. When it comes to the Justice system we are a million miles apart in our thinking. You want everything tidy and in little box's, I want chaos and random.
    Edited by Tannakaobi on July 30, 2014 12:11PM
  • babylon
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    Enodoc wrote: »
    I think it's almost definite that you will be able to craft with stolen goods. It's the trading and the banking that we don't yet really know about.

    The point isn't to make money, it's to sell to the fence. If they allow trading/banking/crafting then I guess we get to enjoy the exploits.
  • babylon
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    Tannakaobi wrote: »
    babylon wrote: »

    I explained this already. Again, it's so someone can't level their Thieves Guild (if this is how it's leveled) without doing any of the work themselves.

    and why not? Does that not solve the issues you had with forced PVP? You explained it, it just does not make sense. When it comes to the Justice system we are a million miles apart in out thinking. You want everything tidy and in little box's, I want chaos and random.

    And why not what. The only chaos is in the thinking, I like mine logical.
  • Tannakaobi
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    babylon wrote: »
    Enodoc wrote: »
    I think it's almost definite that you will be able to craft with stolen goods. It's the trading and the banking that we don't yet really know about.

    The point isn't to make money, it's to sell to the fence. If they allow trading/banking/crafting then I guess we get to enjoy the exploits.

    The point of stealing is not to make money? What planet are you on? Honestly..
  • babylon
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    Tannakaobi wrote: »
    babylon wrote: »
    Enodoc wrote: »
    I think it's almost definite that you will be able to craft with stolen goods. It's the trading and the banking that we don't yet really know about.

    The point isn't to make money, it's to sell to the fence. If they allow trading/banking/crafting then I guess we get to enjoy the exploits.

    The point of stealing is not to make money? What planet are you on? Honestly..

    You have to sell to a fence. You must've missed the memo, but they've been very clear in stating we will need to find a fence to sell the stolen items to.

    So trading/crafting/banking this stolen stuff should be off the table or people will be able to bypass the fence altogether.
  • Tannakaobi
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    babylon wrote: »
    Tannakaobi wrote: »
    babylon wrote: »
    Enodoc wrote: »
    I think it's almost definite that you will be able to craft with stolen goods. It's the trading and the banking that we don't yet really know about.

    The point isn't to make money, it's to sell to the fence. If they allow trading/banking/crafting then I guess we get to enjoy the exploits.

    The point of stealing is not to make money? What planet are you on? Honestly..

    You have to sell to a fence. You must've missed the memo, but they've been very clear in stating we will need to find a fence to sell the stolen items to.

    So trading/crafting/banking this stolen stuff should be off the table or people will be able to bypass the fence altogether.

    You will have to sell to a fence when it comes to NPC's, they have said nothing about trading stolen goods with players. What they have said is they see the justice system as a sandbox design and want players to take it to places they haven't thought of. How is that possible if all these restrictions are in place?

    Fences are for people to get rid of their stolen goods quickly, this does not mean that there will be no other options such as quests, player made jobs etc..

    In my opinion you are being very closed minded. Taking away black market trade just closes doors. Nothing more.
  • Enodoc
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    babylon wrote: »
    Enodoc wrote: »
    I think it's almost definite that you will be able to craft with stolen goods. It's the trading and the banking that we don't yet really know about.

    The point isn't to make money, it's to sell to the fence. If they allow trading/banking/crafting then I guess we get to enjoy the exploits.

    I confess to not having considered Thieves Guild levelling. If that is based on the selling-to-the-fence activity, then I agree that there is another point in stealing in addition to making money.

    If trading is not disabled, perhaps the identity of the original thief will be relevant; selling a stolen item to a fence if you've got it from a friend will not level your Thieves Guild, but selling your own stolen item would.

    Crafting would be fine if you flagged the product as stolen. Alternatively, maybe you should need to visit the fence first, launder the items with the fence, and then you can craft with them.
    UESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
    Join us on Discord - discord.gg/uesp
  • fromtesonlineb16_ESO
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    Enodoc wrote: »
    babylon wrote: »
    fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
    babylon wrote: »
    Enodoc wrote: »
    Maybe banks cannot hold stolen goods.

    Stolen goods needs to be unsellable/untradeable/non-storable in bank, and should not be able to be crafted with, or people would just run with a friend and offload the stolen goods to the friend, dump it all in the bank, or simply use the items at a trade station.
    ZIs have said there'll be 'fences'.

    Yes. Fences should be the only way to dispose of stolen goods - no trading stolen goods with players, no selling stolen goods to shops, no crafting with the stolen goods, no banking stolen goods.
    If Fences are the only way, stealing would be essentially pointless..
    Then let's hope that's the case.

  • babylon
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    Tannakaobi wrote: »
    babylon wrote: »
    Tannakaobi wrote: »
    babylon wrote: »
    Enodoc wrote: »
    I think it's almost definite that you will be able to craft with stolen goods. It's the trading and the banking that we don't yet really know about.

    The point isn't to make money, it's to sell to the fence. If they allow trading/banking/crafting then I guess we get to enjoy the exploits.

    The point of stealing is not to make money? What planet are you on? Honestly..

    You have to sell to a fence. You must've missed the memo, but they've been very clear in stating we will need to find a fence to sell the stolen items to.

    So trading/crafting/banking this stolen stuff should be off the table or people will be able to bypass the fence altogether.

    You will have to sell to a fence when it comes to NPC's, they have said nothing about trading stolen goods with players...

    Fences are for people to get rid of their stolen goods quickly...

    In my opinion you are being very closed minded. Taking away black market trade just closes doors. Nothing more.

    Yep and those doors need to be closed or we'll be able to exploit the system. Fine by me, I'll be getting my money's worth out of this and if we can exploit and grief I say let's do this.

    I am far from close-minded, unless you believe thinking things through before they have happened is what a closed mind is. In my opinion not thinking things through is what a foolish mind is, but that's just my opinion.
    Edited by babylon on July 30, 2014 12:28PM
  • Enodoc
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    fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
    Enodoc wrote: »
    babylon wrote: »
    fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
    babylon wrote: »
    Enodoc wrote: »
    Maybe banks cannot hold stolen goods.

    Stolen goods needs to be unsellable/untradeable/non-storable in bank, and should not be able to be crafted with, or people would just run with a friend and offload the stolen goods to the friend, dump it all in the bank, or simply use the items at a trade station.
    ZIs have said there'll be 'fences'.

    Yes. Fences should be the only way to dispose of stolen goods - no trading stolen goods with players, no selling stolen goods to shops, no crafting with the stolen goods, no banking stolen goods.
    If Fences are the only way, stealing would be essentially pointless..
    Then let's hope that's the case.
    Why so? Not a fan of the system?
    UESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
    Join us on Discord - discord.gg/uesp
  • Tannakaobi
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    fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
    Then let's hope that's the case.

    We understood your feelings about stealing when you made the post:
    fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
    Several .. prime one being there shouldn't be an incentive for this aberant playstyle.

    You should maybe ask yourself why you are playing an Elder Scrolls game if you have such strong feeling towards the game mechanics and story.

    You are entitled to your own opinion about such things

    [Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting Comments]
    Edited by ZOS_UlyssesW on July 30, 2014 12:55PM
  • KariTR
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    babylon wrote: »
    Tannakaobi wrote: »
    babylon wrote: »
    fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
    babylon wrote: »
    Enodoc wrote: »
    Maybe banks cannot hold stolen goods.

    Stolen goods needs to be unsellable/untradeable/non-storable in bank, and should not be able to be crafted with, or people would just run with a friend and offload the stolen goods to the friend, dump it all in the bank, or simply use the items at a trade station.
    ZIs have said there'll be 'fences'.

    Yes. Fences should be the only way to dispose of stolen goods - no trading stolen goods with players, no selling stolen goods to shops, no crafting with the stolen goods, no banking stolen goods.

    What possible reason would there be to not allow trade between players of stolen goods?

    I explained this already. Again, it's so someone can't level their Thieves Guild (if this is how it's leveled) without doing any of the work themselves.

    Also if you ran with a friend you could just trade all the stolen goods to them so even if you got caught you wouldn't lose any of the stolen goods through confiscation.

    As long as receiving stolen goods bears a risk - it is a crime after all - I don't have an issue for people being able to level by selling the stolen goods (if this hypothetical was in fact how it ended up playing out).
  • babylon
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    KariTR wrote: »
    babylon wrote: »
    Tannakaobi wrote: »
    babylon wrote: »
    fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
    babylon wrote: »
    Enodoc wrote: »
    Maybe banks cannot hold stolen goods.

    Stolen goods needs to be unsellable/untradeable/non-storable in bank, and should not be able to be crafted with, or people would just run with a friend and offload the stolen goods to the friend, dump it all in the bank, or simply use the items at a trade station.
    ZIs have said there'll be 'fences'.

    Yes. Fences should be the only way to dispose of stolen goods - no trading stolen goods with players, no selling stolen goods to shops, no crafting with the stolen goods, no banking stolen goods.

    What possible reason would there be to not allow trade between players of stolen goods?

    I explained this already. Again, it's so someone can't level their Thieves Guild (if this is how it's leveled) without doing any of the work themselves.

    Also if you ran with a friend you could just trade all the stolen goods to them so even if you got caught you wouldn't lose any of the stolen goods through confiscation.

    As long as receiving stolen goods bears a risk.

    It wouldn't bear any risk, as only the player with a bounty in the area the bounty was applied has the risk.

    Receiving stolen goods would be an exploit that bypasses ALL risk, and so it should not be allowed.
  • KariTR
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    I also don't see an issue with banking stolen items. If we get caught, our stolen items can be as easily confiscated from the bank as they can our bags (ref: the crafting system already in place)
  • fromtesonlineb16_ESO
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    Tannakaobi wrote: »
    fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
    Then let's hope that's the case.

    We understood your feelings about stealing when you made the post:
    fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
    Several .. prime one being there shouldn't be an incentive for this aberant playstyle.

    You should maybe ask yourself why you are playing an Elder Scrolls game if you have such strong feeling towards the game mechanics and story..
    Theft played no part for me in Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion or Skyrim and it certainly wasn't part of the story, so why should I want it here?

    Your conclusion is plain stupid.
    Edited by fromtesonlineb16_ESO on July 30, 2014 12:41PM
  • babylon
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    KariTR wrote: »
    I also don't see an issue with banking stolen items. If we get caught, our stolen items can be as easily confiscated from the bank as they can our bags (ref: the crafting system already in place)

    Do you really want the game automatically taking items out of your bank...after the banking wipe fiasco.

    Also if you could bank items then you'd be able to log in and out (fleeing the scene without any danger of capture) and use them on an alt without that alt doing the stealing themselves.
    Edited by babylon on July 30, 2014 12:44PM
  • KariTR
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    fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
    Tannakaobi wrote: »
    fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
    Then let's hope that's the case.

    We understood your feelings about stealing when you made the post:
    fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
    Several .. prime one being there shouldn't be an incentive for this aberant playstyle.

    You should maybe ask yourself why you are playing an Elder Scrolls game if you have such strong feeling towards the game mechanics and story..
    Theft played no part for me in Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion or Skyrim and it certainly wasn't part of the story, so why should I want it here when it's going to cause a lot of bad play experiences.

    If it plays no part for you, then I fail to see how it will cause you a bad game experience.

    And even if you don't participate, you cannot deny that a Justice System, The Dark Brotherhood and the Thieves Guild are a staple of TES games and it would be unthinkable to not include them in any TES title.
    Edited by KariTR on July 30, 2014 12:45PM
  • Tannakaobi
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    babylon wrote: »
    Yep and those doors need to be closed or we'll be able to exploit the system. Fine by me, I'll be getting my money's worth out of this and if we can exploit and grief I say let's do this.

    I am far from close-minded, unless you believe thinking things through before they have happened is what a closed mind is. In my opinion not thinking things through is what a foolish mind is, but that's just my opinion.

    But you don't think things through, you think of a problem and then shut the door on the idea. That IS close minded.
    Example:
    babylon wrote: »
    So trading/crafting/banking this stolen stuff should be off the table or people will be able to bypass the fence altogether.

    Off the table! A close minded statement.


  • babylon
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    Tannakaobi wrote: »
    babylon wrote: »
    Yep and those doors need to be closed or we'll be able to exploit the system. Fine by me, I'll be getting my money's worth out of this and if we can exploit and grief I say let's do this.

    I am far from close-minded, unless you believe thinking things through before they have happened is what a closed mind is. In my opinion not thinking things through is what a foolish mind is, but that's just my opinion.

    But you don't think things through, you think of a problem and then shut the door on the idea. That IS close minded.
    Example:
    babylon wrote: »
    So trading/crafting/banking this stolen stuff should be off the table or people will be able to bypass the fence altogether.

    Off the table! A close minded statement.


    Exploits! An open-mind thought of them! See how that works? Or maybe not ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    I'll explain - thinking things through then suggesting ways to close a loophole isn't closed-minded thinking.
    Edited by babylon on July 30, 2014 12:51PM
  • Tannakaobi
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    KariTR wrote: »
    I also don't see an issue with banking stolen items. If we get caught, our stolen items can be as easily confiscated from the bank as they can our bags (ref: the crafting system already in place)

    I'd go for that, but I don't like the idea of people protecting their stolen goods in the banks. That would make the banks themselves criminals.

    I'd rather see a small bank system through the thieves guild that does protect the items, for a sum of course.
    Edited by Tannakaobi on July 30, 2014 12:55PM
  • Tannakaobi
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    babylon wrote: »
    Tannakaobi wrote: »
    babylon wrote: »
    Yep and those doors need to be closed or we'll be able to exploit the system. Fine by me, I'll be getting my money's worth out of this and if we can exploit and grief I say let's do this.

    I am far from close-minded, unless you believe thinking things through before they have happened is what a closed mind is. In my opinion not thinking things through is what a foolish mind is, but that's just my opinion.

    But you don't think things through, you think of a problem and then shut the door on the idea. That IS close minded.
    Example:
    babylon wrote: »
    So trading/crafting/banking this stolen stuff should be off the table or people will be able to bypass the fence altogether.

    Off the table! A close minded statement.


    Exploits! An open-mind thought of them! See how that works? Or maybe not ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    I'll explain - thinking things through then suggesting ways to close a loophole isn't closed-minded thinking.

    Finding possible exploits is not open mindedness, it's common sense. Your idea of closing the loophole is to take down the whole system.
    Edited by Tannakaobi on July 30, 2014 12:54PM
  • babylon
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    Tannakaobi wrote: »
    babylon wrote: »
    Tannakaobi wrote: »
    babylon wrote: »
    Yep and those doors need to be closed or we'll be able to exploit the system. Fine by me, I'll be getting my money's worth out of this and if we can exploit and grief I say let's do this.

    I am far from close-minded, unless you believe thinking things through before they have happened is what a closed mind is. In my opinion not thinking things through is what a foolish mind is, but that's just my opinion.

    But you don't think things through, you think of a problem and then shut the door on the idea. That IS close minded.
    Example:
    babylon wrote: »
    So trading/crafting/banking this stolen stuff should be off the table or people will be able to bypass the fence altogether.

    Off the table! A close minded statement.


    Exploits! An open-mind thought of them! See how that works? Or maybe not ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    I'll explain - thinking things through then suggesting ways to close a loophole isn't closed-minded thinking.

    Finding possible exploits is not open mindedness, it's common sense.

    Semantics.
  • nerevarine1138
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    It's amazing what people think qualifies as exploiting and griefing these days...

    There is nothing that should stop you from deconstructing stolen gear or trading it with a player who's willing to traffic in stolen goods. Personally, I'd love a system where initiating a trade like that with a guard character could result in an immediate arrest. But trading between players can't be a source of griefing, period.
    ----
    Murray?
  • babylon
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    nerevarine1138 wrote: »
    It's amazing what people think qualifies as exploiting and griefing these days...

    There is nothing that should stop you from deconstructing stolen gear or trading it with a player who's willing to traffic in stolen goods. Personally, I'd love a system where initiating a trade like that with a guard character could result in an immediate arrest. But trading between players can't be a source of griefing, period.

    If you really want to exploit the system and escape consequences just say so.

    Don't pretend it can't happen, that's just amusing.
    Edited by babylon on July 30, 2014 1:02PM
  • BBSooner
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    As a player that will be playing a bounty hunter way more than an offender, I hope holding a bounty doesn't impede basic character comforts (bank, crafting, wayshrine, etc. ). If they end up having to provide that stuff via the thieves guild building/underground - I'm fine with that, but losing basic amenities will deter even more people from the system.
    Edited by BBSooner on July 30, 2014 1:08PM
  • Enodoc
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    @babylon‌ you haven't yet commented on my alleviations to the crafting and trading issues you state, I'd like to know what you think :)

    Crafting with stolen items would be fine if you flagged the product(s) as stolen.

    Trading would apply a bounty to the player who received the stolen items. Selling a stolen item to a fence if you've got it from a friend will not level your Thieves Guild, but selling your own stolen item would.
    UESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
    Join us on Discord - discord.gg/uesp
  • nerevarine1138
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    Enodoc wrote: »
    @babylon‌ you haven't yet commented on my alleviations to the crafting and trading issues you state, I'd like to know what you think :)

    Crafting with stolen items would be fine if you flagged the product(s) as stolen.

    Trading would apply a bounty to the player who received the stolen items. Selling a stolen item to a fence if you've got it from a friend will not level your Thieves Guild, but selling your own stolen item would.

    I don't see why any of that would be necessary except the last thing (selling someone else's stolen goods shouldn't be a cheap way to level). But how on earth should anyone know if you used stolen wood to craft that shield? And how will the guards instantly find out that you received stolen goods through a private trade in order to apply a bounty?
    ----
    Murray?
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