Coming changes too little too late?
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Srugzal✭✭✭✭✭khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »I would agree with this completely, but would add one thing. Who freakin' CARES what the people who left the game think of it, and whether or not they will come back?
How about the devs and their bosses running Zenimax? In fact you should care too because in the long run less money for ZOS means less content for you.
You missed the point. Also, you assume player population trends based on conjecture, not actual facts. Not a strong arguing position.
I think you mean less additional content, but I don't see that, either. This game is packed with content to begin with, and there's plenty in the pipeline. They're opening a data center in Europe, and did you watch the Quakecon presentation?? That's not the actions or plans of a moribund game development team, not by a mile.1 -
Fleymark✭✭✭✭✭.khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »I would agree with this completely, but would add one thing. Who freakin' CARES what the people who left the game think of it, and whether or not they will come back?
How about the devs and their bosses running Zenimax? In fact you should care too because in the long run less money for ZOS means less content for you.
You missed the point. Also, you assume player population trends based on conjecture, not actual facts. Not a strong arguing position.
I think you mean less additional content, but I don't see that, either. This game is packed with content to begin with, and there's plenty in the pipeline. They're opening a data center in Europe, and did you watch the Quakecon presentation?? That's not the actions or plans of a moribund game development team, not by a mile.
Yes, and it's exciting but we don't need more icing, which is mostly what was discussed. We need cake. Namely balance.
"I'll gladly pay you on Tuesday for a hamburger today" is wearing thin while paying subscription fees as the half a year mark approaches.
There is NO excuse for balance not being a higher priority at this point.3 -
CatLover53Soul Shrivento make me come back they'd have to enable item exchange between twinks by email like in any other decent mmo I know so far. change the account-name-policy: not acceptable for me to deal with anyone knowing all my chars by knowing my account-name. I just don't want people to know my account-name in the first place.3 -
Srugzal✭✭✭✭✭.khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »I would agree with this completely, but would add one thing. Who freakin' CARES what the people who left the game think of it, and whether or not they will come back?
How about the devs and their bosses running Zenimax? In fact you should care too because in the long run less money for ZOS means less content for you.
You missed the point. Also, you assume player population trends based on conjecture, not actual facts. Not a strong arguing position.
I think you mean less additional content, but I don't see that, either. This game is packed with content to begin with, and there's plenty in the pipeline. They're opening a data center in Europe, and did you watch the Quakecon presentation?? That's not the actions or plans of a moribund game development team, not by a mile.
Yes, and it's exciting but we don't need more icing, which is mostly what was discussed. We need cake. Namely balance.
"I'll gladly pay you on Tuesday for a hamburger today" is wearing thin while paying subscription fees as the half a year mark approaches.
There is NO excuse for balance not being a higher priority at this point.
Revamp of VR is not icing. Introduction of Spellcrafting is not icing. New PvE zones, Justice System, neither are icing.
Yes, Armor Dye is icing. So what?
And balance is so a priority. It's appropriate to approach a subject that materially effects EVERYONE very cautiously. Balance, as people who understand these things well and have seen the problems with other MMOs have been telling us for a while now, takes TIME to get right.
The thing that has the most problem with balance is complaints about the balance that refuse to acknowledge the depth of the issues involved.
Edited by Srugzal on July 29, 2014 4:36PM5 -
Welka✭✭✭✭✭Crisscross wrote: »
Unsub, come back later. Do we have to do all the thinking for you?3 -
Crisscross✭✭✭Context. He was comparing the single player market to MMOs, which is a very different landscape. The mandatory sub fee makes people disgruntled when progress isn't being made, and almost every MMO is in competition with one another. Think about it, what competition does Skyrim have? The only games like it are other Bethesda games, or obscure non-AAA titles that could never pose a threat. Meanwhile everyone is ready to butt heads during ESO vs Wildstar discussions, which are in all honesty pretty different.
On top of that, we still have no idea when "later" is.2 -
WhitePawPrints✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dude, people say this in every game. And ride it to the bottom of the ocean like the orchestra on the titanic.
Yes, because no one plays Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim anymore....
All these things were said by the Min-Maxers before about all 3 of these titles. They all left, and the games are still being played, more importantly being bought and played.
Those are single player games. We are discussing apples here. You just brought oranges into it.
I am so sick of parrots repeating this. "Don't compare apples to oranges." Just because you've heard of it once does not mean it applies whenever its favorable to you!
Comparing a Elder Scrolls game to another Elder Scrolls game is a legitimate comparison because they have the same title! Genre does not matter.
If you want to think about the metaphor that you've heard used repeatedly before, then here is how the metaphor can be used properly: Elder Scrolls III is a Golden Delicious Apple, Elder Scrolls IV is a Gala Apple, Elder Scrolls V is a Fuji Apple and Elder Scrolls Online is a Red Deliscous Apple. It is not nearly as sweet as a Fuji Apple and has less functionality as a Golden Delicious but it is still a damn Apple!
Comparing an Apple to another Apple is a legitimate comparison because they are the same fruit! Breed does not matter.
If you want to throw out pointless validations then I'll bring up the insignificant point that I grew up on an apple orchard. I know my apples.
4 -
Fleymark✭✭✭✭✭.khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »I would agree with this completely, but would add one thing. Who freakin' CARES what the people who left the game think of it, and whether or not they will come back?
How about the devs and their bosses running Zenimax? In fact you should care too because in the long run less money for ZOS means less content for you.
You missed the point. Also, you assume player population trends based on conjecture, not actual facts. Not a strong arguing position.
I think you mean less additional content, but I don't see that, either. This game is packed with content to begin with, and there's plenty in the pipeline. They're opening a data center in Europe, and did you watch the Quakecon presentation?? That's not the actions or plans of a moribund game development team, not by a mile.
Yes, and it's exciting but we don't need more icing, which is mostly what was discussed. We need cake. Namely balance.
"I'll gladly pay you on Tuesday for a hamburger today" is wearing thin while paying subscription fees as the half a year mark approaches.
There is NO excuse for balance not being a higher priority at this point.
Revamp of VR is not icing. Introduction of Spellcrafting is not icing. New PvE zones, Justice System, neither are icing.
Yes, Armor Dye is icing. So what?
And balance is so a priority. It's appropriate to approach a subject that materially effects EVERYONE very cautiously. Balance, as people who understand these things well and have seen the problems with other MMOs have been telling us for a while now, takes TIME to get right.
The thing that has the most problem with balance is complaints about the balance that refuse to acknowledge the depth of the issues involved.
Justice system is icing. Spellcrafting is icing.
And I don't care what they SAY about anything anymore. These people aren't to be trusted at this point. I judge by what they do. Go look at patch notes for the last 2 months and come tell me again what a priority balance is.
I'm not buying the need for "incremental" balancing anymore. They humble thru everything and are heavy handed with everything but, suddenly, they want to baby step something? And that something just happens to be the ONE vital thing they need to be working on? Not buying it for a second.
I guarantee what this "incremental" balancing comes down to is A) They really don't know what to do and/or B ) The bosses are in marketing and only want substantial resources put towards new things that they can market by discussing them in panel discussions at marketing events like quakecon. You can't exactly market fixing half of your broken game without looking really stupid. I suspect both.
Regardless, I don't want to hear about what's coming in the next 4 billing cycles and I'm sick of being expected to pretend that what they SAY they are going to do counts as actually doing something. I'm interested in hearing about getting what I've already paid for but haven't gotten. A game where half of the classes and at least half of the builds are remotely balanced with the other half isn't unreasonable to expect after pre-ordering and paying subs for a third of a year.
It's ridiculous.7 -
Fleymark✭✭✭✭✭WhitePawPrints wrote: »Dude, people say this in every game. And ride it to the bottom of the ocean like the orchestra on the titanic.
Yes, because no one plays Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim anymore....
All these things were said by the Min-Maxers before about all 3 of these titles. They all left, and the games are still being played, more importantly being bought and played.
Those are single player games. We are discussing apples here. You just brought oranges into it.
I am so sick of parrots repeating this. "Don't compare apples to oranges." Just because you've heard of it once does not mean it applies whenever its favorable to you!
Comparing a Elder Scrolls game to another Elder Scrolls game is a legitimate comparison because they have the same title! Genre does not matter.
If you want to think about the metaphor that you've heard used repeatedly before, then here is how the metaphor can be used properly: Elder Scrolls III is a Golden Delicious Apple, Elder Scrolls IV is a Gala Apple, Elder Scrolls V is a Fuji Apple and Elder Scrolls Online is a Red Deliscous Apple. It is not nearly as sweet as a Fuji Apple and has less functionality as a Golden Delicious but it is still a damn Apple!
Comparing an Apple to another Apple is a legitimate comparison because they are the same fruit! Breed does not matter.
If you want to throw out pointless validations then I'll bring up the insignificant point that I grew up on an apple orchard. I know my apples.
Elder scrolls game or not, this is an MMO and there are things that are expected in MMOs. Comparing this to any other TES game in about any way other than lore or story is, indeed, an apples and oranges comparison.
Being a TES game doesn't magically make this MMO exempt from class balance being necessary. It doesn't exempt it from having substantial and rewarding end game content available to those who play for that. Or any number of other things from the book that could be written about what this game lacks.
Yes, it's apples and oranges. The other TES games are single player games that scale with the single player's progression making them different types of games entirely. MMOs, with the words "elder scrolls" in the title or not, must accommodate much more and on a massive scale. To suggest otherwise is absurd.Edited by Fleymark on July 29, 2014 5:56PM2 -
Crisscross✭✭✭WhitePawPrints wrote: »Comparing a Elder Scrolls game to another Elder Scrolls game is a legitimate comparison because they have the same title! Genre does not matter.
I disagree. Tell that to Formula One racing and Street racing. Tell that to American football and European football. Tell that to a polar bear and a panda bear. Tell that to Assassin's Creed on the consoles and Assassin's Creed on the android.
Different markets, different breeds, different purposes, same names.
You're technically right that we can "compare" them if we wanted to, but in the case you were referring to you cannot use the longevity of a single player sandbox game as the basis for arguing why a subscription based theme park MMO will be successful.2 -
WhitePawPrints✭✭✭✭✭
✭WhitePawPrints wrote: »Dude, people say this in every game. And ride it to the bottom of the ocean like the orchestra on the titanic.
Yes, because no one plays Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim anymore....
All these things were said by the Min-Maxers before about all 3 of these titles. They all left, and the games are still being played, more importantly being bought and played.
Those are single player games. We are discussing apples here. You just brought oranges into it.
I am so sick of parrots repeating this. "Don't compare apples to oranges." Just because you've heard of it once does not mean it applies whenever its favorable to you!
Comparing a Elder Scrolls game to another Elder Scrolls game is a legitimate comparison because they have the same title! Genre does not matter.
If you want to think about the metaphor that you've heard used repeatedly before, then here is how the metaphor can be used properly: Elder Scrolls III is a Golden Delicious Apple, Elder Scrolls IV is a Gala Apple, Elder Scrolls V is a Fuji Apple and Elder Scrolls Online is a Red Deliscous Apple. It is not nearly as sweet as a Fuji Apple and has less functionality as a Golden Delicious but it is still a damn Apple!
Comparing an Apple to another Apple is a legitimate comparison because they are the same fruit! Breed does not matter.
If you want to throw out pointless validations then I'll bring up the insignificant point that I grew up on an apple orchard. I know my apples.
Elder scrolls game or not, this is an MMO and there are things that are expected in MMOs. Comparing this to any other TES game in about any way other than lore or story is, indeed, an apples and oranges comparison.
Being a TES game doesn't magically make this MMO exempt from class balance being necessary. It doesn't exempt it from having substantial and rewarding end game content available to those who play for that. Or any number of other things from the book that could be written about what this game lacks.
Yes, it's apples and oranges. The other TES games are single player games that scale with the single player's progression making them different types of games entirely. MMOs, with the words "elder scrolls" in the title or not, must accommodate much more and on a massive scale. To suggest otherwise is absurd.
MMO or not, this is an Elder Scrolls game and there are things that are expected in an Elder Scrolls game. Comparing this to any other MMO game in about any way other gameplay... Actually, I got nothing on that part.
Why is it a standard for MMO's to follow a certain design? Why are raids and guilds so damn necessary? MMO is Massive Multiplayer. The original idea was to allow for lots of players to enjoy and RPG with other fans of the game. New Generation gamers have played only the most recent games, and now expect every MMO have features that were made popular by WoW and some other short-lived MMOs. The same way they think that all FPS now must follow designs introduced in Call of Duty.
And how is class balance even brought into this? Balance is an obvious key in any multiplayer game, but that's not what is ruining this game for the Elder Scrolls fans. No *** that the game must accommodate a much larger player base. The issue with this game is that it is a boring cookie-cutter MMO. It is so *** linear, and Elder Scrolls is known for having the freedom to play anyway you want; like a sandbox game. Sandbox MMO's do exist!
I'm not even discussing the game. I'm discussing your poor attempt to use a metaphor that does not apply.Crisscross wrote: »WhitePawPrints wrote: »Comparing a Elder Scrolls game to another Elder Scrolls game is a legitimate comparison because they have the same title! Genre does not matter.
I disagree. Tell that to Formula One racing and Street racing. Tell that to American football and European football. Tell that to a polar bear and a panda bear. Tell that to Assassin's Creed on the consoles and Assassin's Creed on the android.
Different markets, different breeds, different purposes, same names.
You're technically right that we can "compare" them if we wanted to, but in the case you were referring to you cannot use the longevity of a single player sandbox game as the basis for arguing why a subscription based theme park MMO will be successful.
That right there is the issue. The linear design of having a theme park MMO is what is ruining the game for those who enjoyed a sandbox RPG. It would be fine for Mass Effect if they had a linear MMO but not for Elder Scrolls.
European Futbol is called Soccer by Americans. Football is called American Football by Europeans. Elder Scrolls Online is called Elder Scrolls Online by Europeans. Elder Scrolls Online is called Elder Scrolls Online by Americans. <- Look, I can shout nonsense too. But I realize it doesn't not make me sound any smarter.Edited by WhitePawPrints on July 29, 2014 6:23PM4 -
Anastasia✭✭✭✭No I don't feel like that.
I'm loving most of the game.
I think its simply a case that for your friends the game wasn't for them, ********they imagined it was going to be something else. ********And it's very unlikely such people will come back.
OR it was advertised to be something else, OR it was CHANGED for who knows what reason after said persons bought the game, subbed and committed time to a game that was advertised as something it turned out not to be.
Edited by Anastasia on July 29, 2014 6:46PM4 -
Anastasia✭✭✭✭Am I the only one who doesn't play an MMO like some sort of racecar driver trying to get to the finish line as fast as possible? I've been playing since April and am still not even at Vet rank.
Yet I see these gameplay videos online of players just running through the game like coked-up madmen, skipping every bit of dialogue and just going from fight to fight at breakneck speed, desperately trying to get XP as fast as possible, as if Vet12 is their one and only objective in the game.
So yeah, I guess if you played like that, the game would get boring at the end. But then again, if you played like that, it would be pretty boring at the beginning and middle too.
I'm sure there must be others like me though--who actually take the time to follow the story, follow the sidequests, listen to the dialogue, explore for exploration's sake, craft and trade, etc. And I'm certainly not bored yet.
Hell, sometimes I'll just sit around around dolmens and world bosses watching the fights.
**You ARE aware of course that a large percentage of those who 'speed' to the end are PvP'rs with a righteous reason to do so because they are getting the exp they need to jump in and have real fun start in PvP to be competitive but they can't earn their bones there in Cyr until they are V12??
Everyone who zooms through is not a PvE-exclusive player or a solo-exclusive player who is enjoying the path along the way. If and when PvP allows for reasonable e x p earned, then you will most definitely see a LOT less of the zoomers to V12 in the PvE content. Easily understood.
Oh wait. That WOULD have been the case BEFORE the V+ 1-10 nerf. ;o/
Edited by Anastasia on July 29, 2014 6:53PM5 -
Sighlynce✭✭✭How is it too little too late when the game has only been out since April? I mean come on.
I would agree with this completely, but would add one thing. Who freakin' CARES what the people who left the game think of it, and whether or not they will come back? I mean, seriously, I stuck it out, and I'm loving the ride. It's not everyone's cup of tea, but it never was.
True, people left for a whole lot of reasons, but a lot of them were caught up in the wave of negative hype late April to the middle of May. It was spearheaded by certain Internet Personalities (TM) whom I will not name. I'd like to point out that these so-called "experts" have already left the game they left ESO for... that ought to tell you something.
Restless Gamer is restless.
/cheer
well said "What is better - to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?" - Paarthurnax0 -
khele23eb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »I would agree with this completely, but would add one thing. Who freakin' CARES what the people who left the game think of it, and whether or not they will come back?
How about the devs and their bosses running Zenimax? In fact you should care too because in the long run less money for ZOS means less content for you.
You missed the point. Also, you assume player population trends based on conjecture, not actual facts. Not a strong arguing position.
Im not arguing anything. Im stating a fact. The less money they make the less resources they have for development in the long run. It is always good for an MMO to retain customers, to bring back those who left and to attract new ones.I think you mean less additional content, but I don't see that, either.
No, I totally meant theyre going to literally start removing existing content when more people leave their game /sThis game is packed with content to begin with, and there's plenty in the pipeline. They're opening a data center in Europe, and did you watch the Quakecon presentation?? That's not the actions or plans of a moribund game development team, not by a mile.
And your point in regards to noone caring about bringing people back to the game is?
P2P offered you 'hell yeah!' moments. F2P offers you 'thank god its over' moments.1 -
Fleymark✭✭✭✭✭WhitePawPrints wrote: »WhitePawPrints wrote: »Dude, people say this in every game. And ride it to the bottom of the ocean like the orchestra on the titanic.
Yes, because no one plays Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim anymore....
All these things were said by the Min-Maxers before about all 3 of these titles. They all left, and the games are still being played, more importantly being bought and played.
Those are single player games. We are discussing apples here. You just brought oranges into it.
I am so sick of parrots repeating this. "Don't compare apples to oranges." Just because you've heard of it once does not mean it applies whenever its favorable to you!
Comparing a Elder Scrolls game to another Elder Scrolls game is a legitimate comparison because they have the same title! Genre does not matter.
If you want to think about the metaphor that you've heard used repeatedly before, then here is how the metaphor can be used properly: Elder Scrolls III is a Golden Delicious Apple, Elder Scrolls IV is a Gala Apple, Elder Scrolls V is a Fuji Apple and Elder Scrolls Online is a Red Deliscous Apple. It is not nearly as sweet as a Fuji Apple and has less functionality as a Golden Delicious but it is still a damn Apple!
Comparing an Apple to another Apple is a legitimate comparison because they are the same fruit! Breed does not matter.
If you want to throw out pointless validations then I'll bring up the insignificant point that I grew up on an apple orchard. I know my apples.
Elder scrolls game or not, this is an MMO and there are things that are expected in MMOs. Comparing this to any other TES game in about any way other than lore or story is, indeed, an apples and oranges comparison.
Being a TES game doesn't magically make this MMO exempt from class balance being necessary. It doesn't exempt it from having substantial and rewarding end game content available to those who play for that. Or any number of other things from the book that could be written about what this game lacks.
Yes, it's apples and oranges. The other TES games are single player games that scale with the single player's progression making them different types of games entirely. MMOs, with the words "elder scrolls" in the title or not, must accommodate much more and on a massive scale. To suggest otherwise is absurd.
MMO or not, this is an Elder Scrolls game and there are things that are expected in an Elder Scrolls game. Comparing this to any other MMO game in about any way other gameplay... Actually, I got nothing on that part.
Why is it a standard for MMO's to follow a certain design? Why are raids and guilds so damn necessary? MMO is Massive Multiplayer. The original idea was to allow for lots of players to enjoy and RPG with other fans of the game. New Generation gamers have played only the most recent games, and now expect every MMO have features that were made popular by WoW and some other short-lived MMOs. The same way they think that all FPS now must follow designs introduced in Call of Duty.
And how is class balance even brought into this? Balance is an obvious key in any multiplayer game, but that's not what is ruining this game for the Elder Scrolls fans. No *** that the game must accommodate a much larger player base. The issue with this game is that it is a boring cookie-cutter MMO. It is so *** linear, and Elder Scrolls is known for having the freedom to play anyway you want; like a sandbox game. Sandbox MMO's do exist!
I'm not even discussing the game. I'm discussing your poor attempt to use a metaphor that does not apply.Crisscross wrote: »WhitePawPrints wrote: »Comparing a Elder Scrolls game to another Elder Scrolls game is a legitimate comparison because they have the same title! Genre does not matter.
I disagree. Tell that to Formula One racing and Street racing. Tell that to American football and European football. Tell that to a polar bear and a panda bear. Tell that to Assassin's Creed on the consoles and Assassin's Creed on the android.
Different markets, different breeds, different purposes, same names.
You're technically right that we can "compare" them if we wanted to, but in the case you were referring to you cannot use the longevity of a single player sandbox game as the basis for arguing why a subscription based theme park MMO will be successful.
That right there is the issue. The linear design of having a theme park MMO is what is ruining the game for those who enjoyed a sandbox RPG. It would be fine for Mass Effect if they had a linear MMO but not for Elder Scrolls.
European Futbol is called Soccer by Americans. Football is called American Football by Europeans. Elder Scrolls Online is called Elder Scrolls Online by Europeans. Elder Scrolls Online is called Elder Scrolls Online by Americans. <- Look, I can shout nonsense too. But I realize it doesn't not make me sound any smarter.
I never suggested this or any other game having to be exactly like any other game. That's quite a leap going from needing endgame content to that content needing to be any certain thing like another game. Don't put words in my mouth, thank you. And, for the record, I hate WoW.
You can cry about this game being an exception because it has "elder scrolls" in its title but people, en masse, are going to expect things like endgame content and things to do with guilds in an MMO. They just are. Just wishing it to be otherwise does not make it so, nor does arguing with me about it. Not to mention, expecting hundreds of thousands of players to fart around solo at low levels poring over quests dialogue and pay a sub fee to do it is just as ridiculous. Some will but to expect that to fly with everyone is just silly. There are going to be a lot of people who will fly to top level and expect there to be things to do and there's nothing wrong with that. If that was not intended, the game should have been better designed to discourage it.
And let's not get too far off on the illusion that there is something special about this game that it's doing when it's not being like every other MMO. It's an overglorified solo game with minimal multiplayer aspects, guilds, trade, chat and PvP. And it doesn't do any of it particularly well. Which is the problem.
And, for the record, I played the previous two tes games (and loved them), many other single player rpgs going back 20+ years and have been playing MMOs for over 15. Some of you guys might take a step back from making excuses for it because it says "elder scrolls" in the title and stop rationalizing some hidden brilliance that you get but the rest of us seem to be missing, and actually realize that this game, while there are great things about it, really isn't all that great in the big picture. It tries to be all things to all players and does none of it very well aside from quest storyline. It could be a great game if it actually had a focus beyond that.2 -
Huckdabuck✭✭✭✭✭I really cant understand why people are saying its too late and they are quiting, you need to be subbed to post here so you are just answering your own question...? Duuuhhhh
My sub ended last month yet I'm still able to post. Dunnn dunn dunnnnnnnnnnn.
Texashighelf - VR16 Sorcerer EP NA - FILTHY BARBARIAN
Texasimperial - VR16 Dragonknight EP NA - How do you like your DK?
Texas'Imperial - VR16 Dragonknight DC NA - How do you like your DK?
Texas-Imperial - VR16 Templar DC NA - Queue Clogging Lagsploitter
Texas Highelf - VR16 Sorcerer DC NA - Queue Clogging Lagsploitter
Texas Imperial - VR16 Nightblade DC NA - Queue Clogging LagsploitterJessica Folsom wrote:It's a very grey area.3 -
2
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How is it too little too late when the game has only been out since April? I mean come on.
Please, get over this stupid cliche! That phrase ("Game has only been out for X months") works only for some new content to arrive. Not a messed up game mechanics of which need to be rewritten from scratch! Its not a raid, or dungeon, or housing we are waiting for. Its whole game being "fixed", ground up.
5 -
That leaves me with just over one week left on my sub. I've played most of the solo content available. I feel to get the most out of the upcoming changes I would really have to start again. But the game is so linear and themepark by design I can't really fathom going through all the same quests again.
If you haven't tried PvP yet you should, it's thrilling.
Why? The original concept-holder, Guild Wars 2, has the better version of it. Why would I try the copycat, when there is the original?!1 -
Anastasia✭✭✭✭WhitePawPrints wrote: »WhitePawPrints wrote: »Dude, people say this in every game. And ride it to the bottom of the ocean like the orchestra on the titanic.
Yes, because no one plays Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim anymore....
All these things were said by the Min-Maxers before about all 3 of these titles. They all left, and the games are still being played, more importantly being bought and played.
Those are single player games. We are discussing apples here. You just brought oranges into it.
I am so sick of parrots repeating this. "Don't compare apples to oranges." Just because you've heard of it once does not mean it applies whenever its favorable to you!
Comparing a Elder Scrolls game to another Elder Scrolls game is a legitimate comparison because they have the same title! Genre does not matter.
If you want to think about the metaphor that you've heard used repeatedly before, then here is how the metaphor can be used properly: Elder Scrolls III is a Golden Delicious Apple, Elder Scrolls IV is a Gala Apple, Elder Scrolls V is a Fuji Apple and Elder Scrolls Online is a Red Deliscous Apple. It is not nearly as sweet as a Fuji Apple and has less functionality as a Golden Delicious but it is still a damn Apple!
Comparing an Apple to another Apple is a legitimate comparison because they are the same fruit! Breed does not matter.
If you want to throw out pointless validations then I'll bring up the insignificant point that I grew up on an apple orchard. I know my apples.
Elder scrolls game or not, this is an MMO and there are things that are expected in MMOs. Comparing this to any other TES game in about any way other than lore or story is, indeed, an apples and oranges comparison.
Being a TES game doesn't magically make this MMO exempt from class balance being necessary. It doesn't exempt it from having substantial and rewarding end game content available to those who play for that. Or any number of other things from the book that could be written about what this game lacks.
Yes, it's apples and oranges. The other TES games are single player games that scale with the single player's progression making them different types of games entirely. MMOs, with the words "elder scrolls" in the title or not, must accommodate much more and on a massive scale. To suggest otherwise is absurd.
MMO or not, this is an Elder Scrolls game and there are things that are expected in an Elder Scrolls game. Comparing this to any other MMO game in about any way other gameplay... Actually, I got nothing on that part.
Why is it a standard for MMO's to follow a certain design? Why are raids and guilds so damn necessary? MMO is Massive Multiplayer. The original idea was to allow for lots of players to enjoy and RPG with other fans of the game. New Generation gamers have played only the most recent games, and now expect every MMO have features that were made popular by WoW and some other short-lived MMOs. The same way they think that all FPS now must follow designs introduced in Call of Duty.
And how is class balance even brought into this? Balance is an obvious key in any multiplayer game, but that's not what is ruining this game for the Elder Scrolls fans. No *** that the game must accommodate a much larger player base. The issue with this game is that it is a boring cookie-cutter MMO. It is so *** linear, and Elder Scrolls is known for having the freedom to play anyway you want; like a sandbox game. Sandbox MMO's do exist!
I'm not even discussing the game. I'm discussing your poor attempt to use a metaphor that does not apply.Crisscross wrote: »WhitePawPrints wrote: »Comparing a Elder Scrolls game to another Elder Scrolls game is a legitimate comparison because they have the same title! Genre does not matter.
I disagree. Tell that to Formula One racing and Street racing. Tell that to American football and European football. Tell that to a polar bear and a panda bear. Tell that to Assassin's Creed on the consoles and Assassin's Creed on the android.
Different markets, different breeds, different purposes, same names.
You're technically right that we can "compare" them if we wanted to, but in the case you were referring to you cannot use the longevity of a single player sandbox game as the basis for arguing why a subscription based theme park MMO will be successful.
That right there is the issue. The linear design of having a theme park MMO is what is ruining the game for those who enjoyed a sandbox RPG. It would be fine for Mass Effect if they had a linear MMO but not for Elder Scrolls.
European Futbol is called Soccer by Americans. Football is called American Football by Europeans. Elder Scrolls Online is called Elder Scrolls Online by Europeans. Elder Scrolls Online is called Elder Scrolls Online by Americans. <- Look, I can shout nonsense too. But I realize it doesn't not make me sound any smarter.
I never suggested this or any other game having to be exactly like any other game. That's quite a leap going from needing endgame content to that content needing to be any certain thing like another game. Don't put words in my mouth, thank you. And, for the record, I hate WoW.
You can cry about this game being an exception because it has "elder scrolls" in its title but people, en masse, are going to expect things like endgame content and things to do with guilds in an MMO. They just are. Just wishing it to be otherwise does not make it so, nor does arguing with me about it. Not to mention, expecting hundreds of thousands of players to fart around solo at low levels poring over quests dialogue and pay a sub fee to do it is just as ridiculous. Some will but to expect that to fly with everyone is just silly. There are going to be a lot of people who will fly to top level and expect there to be things to do and there's nothing wrong with that. If that was not intended, the game should have been better designed to discourage it.
And let's not get too far off on the illusion that there is something special about this game that it's doing when it's not being like every other MMO. It's an overglorified solo game with minimal multiplayer aspects, guilds, trade, chat and PvP. And it doesn't do any of it particularly well. Which is the problem.
And, for the record, I played the previous two tes games (and loved them), many other single player rpgs going back 20+ years and have been playing MMOs for over 15. Some of you guys might take a step back from making excuses for it because it says "elder scrolls" in the title and stop rationalizing some hidden brilliance that you get but the rest of us seem to be missing, and actually realize that this game, while there are great things about it, really isn't all that great in the big picture. It tries to be all things to all players and does none of it very well aside from quest storyline. It could be a great game if it actually had a focus beyond that.
Nods, sadly.
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RazielSR✭✭✭✭✭I think the changes are coming too late. IN fact, I'm starting to get really bored of the game. When those changes and new zones happen, maybe I won't be playing, nor replaying again.2
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Shergar✭✭I think a large number of people who played initially and then leave are the ones who rushed through the game to the max levels, did what they could do with it, and have moved on to another game. These people will never come back. Even if the content was there from the beginning, they would have rushed through it, min maxed it, and still left, just maybe a week later. It has happened with Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim. Heck, in those games, there were a large number of people who did little outside of the MQ.
What was left were the people like me, the ones who are either enjoying the experience of the game, or who savor the content and are in no rush to finish everything tonight. I think this series will have more of them staying longer than other MMO's do.
I have been playing steadily since release, so it is not like I am ignoring the game. I still have an entire Alliance to do, I have not finished the AD with any character, I have one DC character who has finished Coldharbor (but still has the last two MQ battles to finish up). I have not found all the lore books, have not researched all the traits, have not found all the dungeons and delves even in the areas that I have been spending time in. Based on Achievements, I still have a ton of PvE to do. Then, I might get around to doing PvP.
This is exactly what I think of the players Nestor that have left and continue to spew bile all over the internet about this game and probably every other MMO before it.
Serves them right for rushing through the quests and levelling as fast as possible and for what?
So now they get bored of the game after 3 months because their mates have got to max level and left because they thought erm what's there to do now, NOTHING because you were stupid enough to rush a game that is meant to be taken slowly and enjoyed, nobody thinks they are any better for reaching VR levels any quicker than anyone else it just means they most likely don't have a full time job and clearly don't have a social life if they are glued to your computer 24/7 getting frills out of getting to next level as fast as possible, drifting from MMO to MMO and getting no satisfaction out of any of them.
These people are always in the minority you get them in all games, hey look at me I am number one I have all the best gear, weapons etc and I beat all of you to max level when in reality nobody gives a s@#t.
These people are not the ones going to keep this game going for years the ones that keep this game going are the ones that take in the lore, scenery, quests and can get immersed in the game world and are looking forward to every update and realise that they will be the ones that see this game grow and are happy to wait it out because they enjoy the game.
This game is as busy as I have seen it since I started subscribing last month and it will only grow every month and will explode onto consoles at some point in the next year and will be massive guaranteed, you heard it hear first.
So haters go and max out some other MMO or go back to one of the others you probably said you would never go back to and stop spreading lies about a game that clearly doesn't deserve it just because you levelled to fast and have nothing to do.
Dude, people say this in every game. And ride it to the bottom of the ocean like the orchestra on the titanic.
The fact is, this game has a terrible reputation amongst people who've never played it, much less with people who didn't return after beta or played at release and have left. And for good reason. As is usually the story, it released unfinished and in a state of gross imbalance. The "unfinished" part is getting better with every patch. The "imbalance" part is not in any significant way, as the half year mark approaches, and that is a serious problem.
Every online game is always released unfinished and they are all unbalanced to some degree and that is why we have patches, it is the way things are these days and it won't change anytime soon.
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Anastasia✭✭✭✭Am I the only one who doesn't play an MMO like some sort of racecar driver trying to get to the finish line as fast as possible? I've been playing since April and am still not even at Vet rank. Yet I see these gameplay videos online of players just running through the game like coked-up madmen, skipping every bit of dialogue and just going from fight to fight at breakneck speed, desperately trying to get XP as fast as possible, as if Vet12 is their one and only objective in the game.
So yeah, I guess if you played like that, the game would get boring at the end. But then again, if you played like that, it would be pretty boring at the beginning and middle too.
I'm sure there must be others like me though--who actually take the time to follow the story, follow the sidequests, listen to the dialogue, explore for exploration's sake, craft and trade, etc. And I'm certainly not bored yet.
Hell, sometimes I'll just sit around around dolmens and world bosses watching the fights.
Well it depends on what you want from the game and if you want to be competitive with other players. I leveled my main to VR12 in less than a month, grinding from lvl 35 to VR12, because I know that the earlier you're on top, the easier it is to be competitive. I've been taking my time to play with an alt, enjoy the game while still enjoying competitive gameplay with my max leveled character.
Sad thing about most MMOS is that once you've got players that are far ahead, you can't keep up with them if you take things slowly & actually enjoy the game. It takes an incredible amount of time to search for the best sets to suit your gameplay or to adapt your gameplay so it's op, it takes even more time to actually find the sets like the epic sets you get from trial runs that drop randomly, the warlock set or the PVP sets like Syrabane (nerf inc) set for DKs.
After some time, the gap is so huge, that most games end up implementing player & XP buffs to help new players get closer to the competitive ones at a fast pace (I know it's like it for Lineage II and I think it's also the case for WOW).
If you enjoy the game taking it slow, then don't feel bad or alone or concerned about people that rush to end game but don't expect to be able to compete at high level by doing so.
It's all a matter of personal preferences and choices
This. This exactly.
The problem is, in the 3ish months I've been on these forums, it always seems to be the "stop and smell the roses" players who always have something to say about anyone who doesn't play that way. There seems to be this general disdain for anyone who likes getting to endgame and playing there as if that alone is the cause of every problem in a game and the provenance of the evil and dreaded "elitists." I've never once seen anyone at high levels talk down to lower level players or any of the "elitism" that we are all supposed to be paranoid about, yet you can't throw a rock here without hitting a "you rushed to endgame!" post. It's ridiculous.
"Play the way you want" isn't just farting around at low levels forever and whatever it is these people who have, somehow, not made it to vet content like to do. It also includes getting to endgame and having something to do there. In a balanced and rewarding play environment.
Which is the chief problem with this game, unfortunately. They concentrate too much on fluff and icing that they can discuss in panel discussion at Marketing events and not enough on the cake. And so does a lot of the player base, apparently, but that doesn't change the fact that people who play games for substance not fluff have not returned since beta, quit, or never even played at all. And it has nothing to do with them "doing it wrong" as some here would like to believe.
*Nods to Fleymark. I especially like the "In a balanced and rewarding play environment." part of your post. Heh, I'd settle for 'reasonably balanced' actually.
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Nestor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Those are single player games. We are discussing apples here. You just brought oranges into it.
TES is the Fruit Basket here
Dude, people say this in every game. And ride it to the bottom of the ocean like the orchestra on the titanic.
You were not specific, so I did not feel I had to be.
My point was, and thank you for ignoring it, is people play TES for the long haul, not the instant gratification. So, cater to the flash in the pan, going to move on anyway after I rush through the content crowd or cater to the ones who stick around and play these games for years on end?
Enjoy the game, life is what you really want to be worried about.
PakKat "Everything was going well, until I died"
Gary Gravestink "I am glad you died, I needed the help"3 -
CirithValaria✭✭✭✭Too much... data...cannot...process...
EDIT: Arguing about opinions really is a waste of time & space..Edited by CirithValaria on July 29, 2014 10:32PMMotto:
“What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us...
What we have done for others and the world, it remains and is immortal...”
About me:
@Cirith-Valar'ia & @Lilith-Valar'ia (in-game)
| hardcore-casual | pc-eu / ps4-eu | pve | pvp | player since early beta | subscriber since early-launch |
| The Sanctum Sanctorum - founder & guild master |
Characters:@Cirith-Valar'ia(pc-eu)
Cirith Valar'ia | Dunmer (F) | Lady of Light, Templar DD (stamina) | (ex)VR 16 | Aldmeri Dominion (Master Crafter - all crafts, traits & styles.)
Nezghul Sithis | Breton (F) | Winter Ward, Warden Tank (magic) | lvl 50 | Aldmeri Dominion
Hakrate Hecate | Orc (F) | Dying Light, Templar DD (stamina, PvP) | lvl 50 | Aldmeri Dominion
Tummien-Vesien-Tulkki | Argonian (M) | Blood Shield, Nightblade Tank (magic) | (ex)VR 16 | Ebonheart Pact
Valonkantaja | Argonian (F) | Healer of the Hist, Templar Healer | (ex)VR 16 | Ebonheart Pact
Tulenvalaja | Argonian (M) | Guardian of the Hist, Dragonknight DD (magic) | (ex)VR 16 | Ebonheart Pact
Kuolon-Raatojen-Kaitsija | Argonian (M) | Corpsekeeper of the Hist, Necromancer Tank (magic) | lvl 20 | Ebonheart Pact
Kal-Mah | Argonian (F) | Spawn of Wamasu, Sorcerer Tank (magic) | (ex)VR 16 | Ebonheart Pact
Puutiainen | Bosmer (F) | Horny Ravager, Sorcerer DD (stamina) | (ex)VR 16 | Daggerfall Covenant
Musta-Surma | Khajiit (F) | Nightpawler, Nightblade DD - thief/murderer (stamina) | (ex)VR 16 | Daggerfall Covenant
T'Sok Shiar | Altmer (F) | Touched by Daedra, Sorcerer DD (magic) | (ex)VR 1 | Daggerfall Covenant (Master Cook - all recipes.)
S'auron | Khajiit (M) | Poison Paw, Dragonknight DD (stamina) | lvl 50 | Daggerfall Covenant
(1100CP)
@Lilith-Valar'ia(pc-eu)
Lilith Valar'ia | Dunmer (F) | Phœnix, Dragonknight Healer | lvl 25 | Aldmeri Dominion
Stormpaw | Khajiit (F) | Cpt. Pirate Puss, Sorcerer DD (stamina) | lvl 25 | Aldmeri Dominion
Iliath Valar'ia | Dunmer (F) | Storm Ward, Sorcerer Tank (magic) | lvl 25 | Aldmeri Dominion
Haudantakainen | Argonian (M) | Pale Avenger, Nightblade DD (magic) | lvl 25 | Ebonheart Pact
Kira Tal'Shiar | Breton (F) | Warrior of Light, Templar DD (magic) | lvl 10 | Ebonheart Pact
Sunpaw | Khajiit (M) | Crescent Moon Guardian, Templar Tank (stamina, PvP) | lvl 40 | Daggerfall Covenant
Shangri Shadowtusk | Orc (F) | Shadowtusk, Nightblade DD (stamina) | lvl 50 | Daggerfall Covenant
(180CP)
@CirithValaria(ps4-eu)
Topaz-dar | Khajiit (F) | Mysticat, Sorcerer DD (stamina) | lvl 5 | Aldmeri Dominion
Her-Frozen-Heart | Argonian (F) | Frozen Shield, Warden Tank (magicka) | lvl 5 | Daggerfall Covenant
Neazgûl | Redguard (F) | Bear Matron, Warden DD (stamina) | lvl 50 | Daggerfall Covenant
(160CP)1 -
renton1x1x1✭✭✭Too late for what exactly - that some people may never return. I think a lot of people bought bashed it for a month and then left with a view to coming back when more stuff has been added.
Most hardcore TES players will come back when thieves guild and dark brotherhood will be added. MMO players will return when there is an viable endgame - pvp is fixed and champion system and other stuff - justice system etc
I think of SWTOR after 4 months and this holds up much better. An MMO is a huge undertaking and recent experiences has shown that MMO launches are tricky at best.
Personally i'm still enjoying the game it's holding my interest. In MMO terms there isn't much else that i'm going to play in the next year. Wildstar and Archage both look kinda MEH. I have my previous game the secret world if i get bored but havent logged into that for 2 months.
I think zenimax definitely has a PR problem because the public perception of the game overall isn't fantastic. I was waiting for angry joe's review because he gives a balanced opinion. I went for early access and the imperial edition and 6 month sub. Played for a week and really enjoyed it then saw AJ's review and he lead with protesting about the sub fee and the imperial edition. I can afford both of these and don't mind. Other reviewers went with it tries to a single player TES game and an MMO and fails at both and the sub fee in't justified
First impressions last and the negative view of the game still persists. Ultimately it's down to personal preference the MMO crowd is fickle an will flock to next shiny.Renton Sc Breton Sorcerer VR14
Renton Tp Argonian Templar VR14
Renton Dk Imperial DragonKnight VR14
Renton Nb Khajiit Nightblade VR10 Vampire
www.alitheso.com Casual Social EU PvX Guild
Ebonheart Pact EU PVP Decimation Elite Azura's Star
The Traveling Merchant
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/190077/the-traveling-merchant-eu-craglorn-trading-guild
So let me get this straight: You want to ride on a magic carpet to see the king of the potato people and beg with him for your freedom. And you're telling me that you're completely sane? - Rimmer - Red Dwarf V - Quarantine2