Comprehensive list of PVP issues (not bugs) as of 1.2.6

  • Agrippa_Invisus
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    Thank you for this list, and constructive breakdown of PVP issues, @Halrloprillalar.

    We currently have several teams looking at the issues called out in this thread (and others) including the PVP team, and the Gameplay team. We are aware of the feedback and concerns regarding AoE caps, specifically; the Gameplay team is actively looking at AoE caps and the issues related to them very closely and carefully before making any further changes.

    Well, not quite what we want to hear, but great at last to have a response from ZOS!
    Thank you!

    Goes to show what an eloquent bit of feedback can get you.
    Agrippa Invisus / Indominus / Inprimis / Inviolatus
    DragonKnight / Templar / Warden / Sorcerer - Vagabond
    Once a General, now a Citizen
    Former Emperor of Bloodthorn and Vivec
    For Sweetrolls! FOR FIMIAN!
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  • ZOS_BrianWheeler
    ZOS_BrianWheeler
    PvP & Combat Lead
    To piggyback onto @Jessica's comments about AoE caps, here's what I can tell you about some of the other concerns:


    2. Home vs. guesting, and pvp buffs. <--With Campaigns being reduced to 5 in 1.3 we will see how this shakes down but we are aware of the feedback regarding guest vs. home buffs.

    3. Emperor trading/former emperor buffs. <-- We are discussing various options/changes to Emperor buffs/former emperor buffs and will comment more when it's ready to be rolled out. Also in 1.3 there are several changes aimed specifically at the farming/trading behaviors (faster degrade on siege weapons so players can't "lock" a keep from defensive siege, higher AP requirement to be Emperor, 3 day lockout on Guest passing/Home campaign, and different durations of campaigns).

    4. Forward camps. <--We are also aware of the cross-team issues with this and that players can use up charges in your Camps when deployed that you may not have wanted to. Currently we are discussing a few options but nothing solid yet gang. We also know about the wayshrine/camping and looking into solutions for that too.

    5. The rewards/AP/gear system. <-- The cadence for getting rewards slows down the higher level you are so that should help with the frequency worries. In a future patch (not 1.3 but after) very nice items will be added to the leaderboard rewards from Campaigns. As for 1.3 however new merchants are in Cyrodiil that sell higher VR gear!
    Wheeler
    ESO PVP Lead & Combat Lead
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    Staff Post
  • Agrippa_Invisus
    Agrippa_Invisus
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    To piggyback onto @Jessica's comments about AoE caps, here's what I can tell you about some of the other concerns:


    2. Home vs. guesting, and pvp buffs. <--With Campaigns being reduced to 5 in 1.3 we will see how this shakes down but we are aware of the feedback regarding guest vs. home buffs.

    3. Emperor trading/former emperor buffs. <-- We are discussing various options/changes to Emperor buffs/former emperor buffs and will comment more when it's ready to be rolled out. Also in 1.3 there are several changes aimed specifically at the farming/trading behaviors (faster degrade on siege weapons so players can't "lock" a keep from defensive siege, higher AP requirement to be Emperor, 3 day lockout on Guest passing/Home campaign, and different durations of campaigns).

    4. Forward camps. <--We are also aware of the cross-team issues with this and that players can use up charges in your Camps when deployed that you may not have wanted to. Currently we are discussing a few options but nothing solid yet gang. We also know about the wayshrine/camping and looking into solutions for that too.

    5. The rewards/AP/gear system. <-- The cadence for getting rewards slows down the higher level you are so that should help with the frequency worries. In a future patch (not 1.3 but after) very nice items will be added to the leaderboard rewards from Campaigns. As for 1.3 however new merchants are in Cyrodiil that sell higher VR gear!

    Thanks, Brian! We've all been wanting to hear from you guys and are glad to finally see it in writing. Keep up the communication, it's what we thrive on.
    Agrippa Invisus / Indominus / Inprimis / Inviolatus
    DragonKnight / Templar / Warden / Sorcerer - Vagabond
    Once a General, now a Citizen
    Former Emperor of Bloodthorn and Vivec
    For Sweetrolls! FOR FIMIAN!
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  • Halrloprillalar
    Halrloprillalar
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    To piggyback onto @Jessica's comments about AoE caps, here's what I can tell you about some of the other concerns:

    5. The rewards/AP/gear system. <-- The cadence for getting rewards slows down the higher level you are so that should help with the frequency worries. In a future patch (not 1.3 but after) very nice items will be added to the leaderboard rewards from Campaigns. As for 1.3 however new merchants are in Cyrodiil that sell higher VR gear!

    98b23ce743268189997707346dfe514dc3568ea87cf80352ab94f6046ed802aa.jpg
    Edited by Halrloprillalar on July 24, 2014 9:23PM
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  • Xsorus
    Xsorus
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    To piggyback onto @Jessica's comments about AoE caps, here's what I can tell you about some of the other concerns:


    2. Home vs. guesting, and pvp buffs. <--With Campaigns being reduced to 5 in 1.3 we will see how this shakes down but we are aware of the feedback regarding guest vs. home buffs.

    3. Emperor trading/former emperor buffs. <-- We are discussing various options/changes to Emperor buffs/former emperor buffs and will comment more when it's ready to be rolled out. Also in 1.3 there are several changes aimed specifically at the farming/trading behaviors (faster degrade on siege weapons so players can't "lock" a keep from defensive siege, higher AP requirement to be Emperor, 3 day lockout on Guest passing/Home campaign, and different durations of campaigns).

    4. Forward camps. <--We are also aware of the cross-team issues with this and that players can use up charges in your Camps when deployed that you may not have wanted to. Currently we are discussing a few options but nothing solid yet gang. We also know about the wayshrine/camping and looking into solutions for that too.

    5. The rewards/AP/gear system. <-- The cadence for getting rewards slows down the higher level you are so that should help with the frequency worries. In a future patch (not 1.3 but after) very nice items will be added to the leaderboard rewards from Campaigns. As for 1.3 however new merchants are in Cyrodiil that sell higher VR gear!

    Out in Cyrodiil, or actually at the main port in area's?

    Because i've not noticed anything really new about the gear there on PTS

    Well...except one set i'm going to abuse until you nerf it lawls

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  • Snit
    Snit
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    I agree with every point the OP made.
    Snit AD Sorc
    Ratbag AD Warden Tank
    Goblins AD Stamblade

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  • ZOS_BrianWheeler
    ZOS_BrianWheeler
    PvP & Combat Lead
    @xsorusb14_ESO Ah crap I worded that wrong...The merchants there now sell better Vet gear for 1.3 with better prices, but in 1.4 there will be new merchants with even more better gear. Sorry about the confusion there.
    Wheeler
    ESO PVP Lead & Combat Lead
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    Staff Post
  • Xsorus
    Xsorus
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    @xsorusb14_ESO Ah crap I worded that wrong...The merchants there now sell better Vet gear for 1.3 with better prices, but in 1.4 there will be new merchants with even more better gear. Sorry about the confusion there.

    Gotcha

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  • frosth.darkomenb16_ESO
    frosth.darkomenb16_ESO
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    Thank you for this list, and constructive breakdown of PVP issues, @Halrloprillalar.

    We currently have several teams looking at the issues called out in this thread (and others) including the PVP team, and the Gameplay team. We are aware of the feedback and concerns regarding AoE caps, specifically; the Gameplay team is actively looking at AoE caps and the issues related to them very closely and carefully before making any further changes.

    Thank you very much.
    At least we know you guys are aware of the issues.
    If you're interested in more ideas, take a look at the thread in my sig. o:)

    I am very hyped about the game lately, and so are a lot of players.
    Keep up the good work. :smiley:
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  • Xsorus
    Xsorus
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    One of the small changes they could do right now is putting Armor Abilities on a 5 piece limit. So you'd either force them into 5 Pieces of Heavy or Light if they wanted to use those abilities.

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  • tinythinker
    tinythinker
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    I generally like the ideas put forward so far, but I reject private ownership of camps. Every single guild/group might decide they want their own camp. Some folks don't group or guild. You might have 3, 5, 10, or 20 camps at a single keep and still not have one to which non-guild/non-grouped players can port.

    The other suggestions offered already help with this. If you can only port to a forward camp within its shown map radius, then only folks close enough to be involved in the fighting can use it. That means less traffic through the camp and more of that traffic is actively engaged with a particular battle.

    Another suggestion from this thread also helps: a penalty after porting to a camp. If people resurrect with half or less of their stats, and a reduced regeneration rate (including debuffs on spells/potions) for something length of time, then along with the limits of only working within a particular radius it wouldn't be as tempting to use a camp even for a short "hop". You could just ride your horse that distance in the same time it would take to recover from going through the tent.

    As for bad player behavior, such as spies dropping tents to prevent other camps being used closer to the battle, or players being too cheap or unaware to drop replacement FCs, this is harder to regulate. For the former, perhaps have each camp list who dropped it in a way that would show up on a map for screen captures? Plus, shrink that map radius by maybe 15%-20%. Would also help reduce incidental traffic and make FC sabotage less effective.

    For the latter, maybe give a nice AP reward for dropping camps near active battles? That would mean the tent's map radius would have to include a recent battle or keep/resource siege. Say, something that had happened in the last 5 minutes.
    Edited by tinythinker on July 24, 2014 10:19PM
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  • Xsorus
    Xsorus
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    Game does need Rez Sickness

    My opinion is maybe Porting to a Forward Camp will give Rez sickness, porting to keep not under attack might not give rez sickness.

    Also something needs to be done with Resources at keep, most of the time people are just blowing through the wall incredibly quickly while completely ignoring the resources.

    There should be more incentive to take those resources first before knocking down the walls.
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  • Agrippa_Invisus
    Agrippa_Invisus
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    Game does need Rez Sickness

    My opinion is maybe Porting to a Forward Camp will give Rez sickness, porting to keep not under attack might not give rez sickness.

    Also something needs to be done with Resources at keep, most of the time people are just blowing through the wall incredibly quickly while completely ignoring the resources.

    There should be more incentive to take those resources first before knocking down the walls.

    Right now taking resources just serves as a giant warning bell that the keep's about to be under attack. It only matters on a recently taken keep you want to retake (to keep the level low) or if you know there are defenders in there and you want to cut the transit before you hit the walls.

    Agrippa Invisus / Indominus / Inprimis / Inviolatus
    DragonKnight / Templar / Warden / Sorcerer - Vagabond
    Once a General, now a Citizen
    Former Emperor of Bloodthorn and Vivec
    For Sweetrolls! FOR FIMIAN!
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  • Xsorus
    Xsorus
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    Game does need Rez Sickness

    My opinion is maybe Porting to a Forward Camp will give Rez sickness, porting to keep not under attack might not give rez sickness.

    Also something needs to be done with Resources at keep, most of the time people are just blowing through the wall incredibly quickly while completely ignoring the resources.

    There should be more incentive to take those resources first before knocking down the walls.

    Right now taking resources just serves as a giant warning bell that the keep's about to be under attack. It only matters on a recently taken keep you want to retake (to keep the level low) or if you know there are defenders in there and you want to cut the transit before you hit the walls.

    Yeap...

    Hence why you just have people setup 20 Ballista's and break down the wall in about 2 to 3 minutes.

    Whats sad is, if the Forward Camps didn't exist like they did right now, There would be no way to defend a keep in time before the walls got knocked down.

    So its 2 separate issues, both are bad for the game, but both are needed right now to counter the other.

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  • Agrippa_Invisus
    Agrippa_Invisus
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    Game does need Rez Sickness

    My opinion is maybe Porting to a Forward Camp will give Rez sickness, porting to keep not under attack might not give rez sickness.

    Also something needs to be done with Resources at keep, most of the time people are just blowing through the wall incredibly quickly while completely ignoring the resources.

    There should be more incentive to take those resources first before knocking down the walls.

    Right now taking resources just serves as a giant warning bell that the keep's about to be under attack. It only matters on a recently taken keep you want to retake (to keep the level low) or if you know there are defenders in there and you want to cut the transit before you hit the walls.

    Yeap...

    Hence why you just have people setup 20 Ballista's and break down the wall in about 2 to 3 minutes.

    Whats sad is, if the Forward Camps didn't exist like they did right now, There would be no way to defend a keep in time before the walls got knocked down.

    So its 2 separate issues, both are bad for the game, but both are needed right now to counter the other.

    What I would be interested to see --

    A little bit of nerfing to the guards (archers especially) and a buffing of the keep walls (alternatively, weakening the damage of siege on walls). Make it so that the keep flags at 50% on the wall, but transit it lost when the outer wall goes down.

    This puts more of the burden on the defenders, but at the same time, they have more time to get there and the building itself is sturdier.
    Agrippa Invisus / Indominus / Inprimis / Inviolatus
    DragonKnight / Templar / Warden / Sorcerer - Vagabond
    Once a General, now a Citizen
    Former Emperor of Bloodthorn and Vivec
    For Sweetrolls! FOR FIMIAN!
    Options
  • Halrloprillalar
    Halrloprillalar
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    If camps had a much shorter duration (say 10s, but a much lower cost as a result), it would fix a lot of the current issues imo.
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  • Ezareth
    Ezareth
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    My guild and I have been complaining of these PVP issues since the AOE caps were put in place. We usually only play with 6-8 people and going against 30 people we are not nearly as effective as we used to be due to zerg ball behavior. It really isn't fun and it takes the individual element out of PVP.

    One option I'd like to see regarding Forward camps is they should sell the "Light" Forward Camps that you get as your first cyrodiil quest reward. This will allow groups to allow a few people to ress without pulling in a horde of assorted players who don't meaningfully contribute to your group effort and end up taking defense/attack ticks that your group earned.

    I think a group leader should have option of making his group siege (including camps) group use-able only. This would prevent people outside of your group from taking the siege you place as well as using up your forward camp. It is extremely frustrating to have to continue to finance siege camps during an assault and have random players continually use them up while they feeding AP to the enemy you are attacking.

    One other absurdly broken thing that contributes to zerg balls I think @ZOS_BrianWheeler and his team should look into is Grand Healing. I run with Grand healing on my bar and I can cast it nonstop once morphed and keep an entire group topped off during keep assaults without ever running out of mana. Unlike AOE damage, AOE healing has no cap, and there is no reason a single person should be able to heal thousands of damage a second for nearly no cost.

    Grand healing either needs to not stack (currently you can layer the spell on top of itself which increases the healing per second you're doing on every player standing in it) or they need to look at capping the number of people it can heal.

    Also I think increasing the decay rate of siege would be a huge mistake. In long sieges inside of keeps you often are manning 2 or 3 oil pots and a meatbag or fire ballista and have to replace all of this siege equipment is going to decrease the enjoyment of using siege. I'm already going through anywhere from 36-48 meatbags and 30 other assorted siege weapons a night.

    A much better solution is to put a limit on the number of siege a single player can place at something like 3 or 4. This would eliminate the effectiveness of a enemy "spy" being able to meaningfully impact an assault while not really restricting the majority of players defending/assaulting a keep.
    Edited by Ezareth on July 25, 2014 12:51AM
    Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
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    Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
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  • Xsorus
    Xsorus
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    AOE healing has a cap..The thing is unlike AOE healing, there is no smart damage system.

    So if you use Grand Healing, you're going to heal the lowest people in HP up fairly quickly, while if you're doing any damage, you're going to randomly hit people past 6 since you had a cap.

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  • OtarTheMad
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    They should eliminate travel to player option for Cyrodiil, that would really help with some things like emp farming.
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  • Morvul
    Morvul
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    Hence why you just have people setup 20 Ballista's and break down the wall in about 2 to 3 minutes.

    Whats sad is, if the Forward Camps didn't exist like they did right now, There would be no way to defend a keep in time before the walls got knocked down.

    So its 2 separate issues, both are bad for the game, but both are needed right now to counter the other.

    very good point!
    while yes: forward camps feel somehow too strong, defending keeps without them would be incredible difficult in the current meta.

    So the issues of keep durability and forward camps defenitly need to be looked at in conjunction.

    (And I'm not quite sure what a good solution for either might be...)
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  • demonlkojipub19_ESO
    demonlkojipub19_ESO
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    Forward camps being how they are now is how majority of hordes get to keeps to attack in the first place. Getting to your own keep to defend it is easy. Just transitus to the nearest keep not under attack and ride there. People should be somewhat ready to defend something anyways. Creating a use distance limit would onlt be beneficial and prevent bypassing of transitus limitations.

    I really hope they create party based fcs that can be placed seperate from e:erone fcs and other party fcs. They should create a limit on how many party fcs can overlap each other (1party fc per party), and leave everyone fcs at 1.
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  • frosth.darkomenb16_ESO
    frosth.darkomenb16_ESO
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    Here is a possible solution:

    - When you die, you can only respawn to forward camps if you are in their effective area, at the "Revival shrine" you are bound at or back to the entrance wayshrines.
    - You can be bound to only one revive shrine at a time.
    - Add a casting time to the transitus network based on the number of "jumps" in the network. (15secs per jump would be nice)

    - Keeps under attack break the transit lines after them, however
    - Keeps at the edge remain linked as long as they own 1 resource.

    - Keep stores have limited stocks that refill only when owning appropriate resources. (ex: lumbermill for siege engines)
    - Keep store AP prices increases the lower the stocks are.

    - You can no longer setup a forward camp in the courtyard of a keep.
    - There is a revival shrine in the courtyard you can activate to revive in the keep.
    - Revival shrines can be destroyed.

    Explanations:
    The idea here is to add more phases and side objectives to the assault and defense of a keep.
    For attackers, capturing and defending resources to prevent reinforcements, breaching the wall, breaking the revival shrine and intercept backup.
    For defenders, attack resources to restore travel/buffs, defend the walls, take out enemy forward camps and siege engines

    Think about CS: Counters/terrorist are initially defenders/attackers but when the bomb is planted, the roles switch.
    Here there would be a lot of dynamic interaction where a group on either side will have to react to a shifting context.

    The death rules and transitus casting time would mean that in order to swicth front, you'd have an opportunity cost.

    The connectivity rules would add strategic behind the lines actions where attacking an outpost would cut off backup to a front. It gives roles for smaller groups as spec ops and counter spec ops.

    The revival shrine guarantees that people defending a keep can keep defending it. But the keep stores would run out of resources or the defenders would run out of AP.
    Effectively laying a siege and starving out the defenders.

    The shrine also let guilds claim a keep and defend it by always being able to revive at it even when fighting elsewhere if they never bind to another keep.
    It is a trade off to having a harder time defending elsewhere, but keeping your spot in the world.
    I think that more "player ownership" of the world can only be positive.
    Edited by frosth.darkomenb16_ESO on July 25, 2014 8:48AM
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  • ZOS_BrianWheeler
    ZOS_BrianWheeler
    PvP & Combat Lead
    "One other absurdly broken thing that contributes to zerg balls I think @ZOS_BrianWheeler and his team should look into is Grand Healing. I run with Grand healing on my bar and I can cast it nonstop once morphed and keep an entire group topped off during keep assaults without ever running out of mana. Unlike AOE damage, AOE healing has no cap, and there is no reason a single person should be able to heal thousands of damage a second for nearly no cost."

    I'll pass that along to the combat team.
    Wheeler
    ESO PVP Lead & Combat Lead
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  • Shaggygaming
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    To piggyback onto @Jessica's comments about AoE caps, here's what I can tell you about some of the other concerns:


    2. Home vs. guesting, and pvp buffs. <--With Campaigns being reduced to 5 in 1.3 we will see how this shakes down but we are aware of the feedback regarding guest vs. home buffs.

    @ZOS_BrianWheeler‌ - Why does anyone need to keep their campaign buffs when they're guesting on a different campaign? Why? This ONLY causes problems and does not help in any way.

    Also a major issue, what good are all these changes and new campaigns when we can't even PVP. NA Wabbjack is a complete mess. You can't use abilities, lag is about 5+ seconds, and honestly if the lag isn't fixed I no longer have a reason to play the game. I can overcome bugs or terrible balancing with AOE caps and what not, but I cannot play a game that has 5+ seconds of lag. You all are very aware of this issue.
    Edited by Shaggygaming on July 25, 2014 1:46PM
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  • Sotha_Sil
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    @ZOS_BrianWheeler

    I'm sorry but... could you please confirm about healing target number ? I thought it was restricted to 6 people.

    Quoting Jessica Folson area-of-effect abilities thread
    http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/89420/area-of-effect-abilities-maximum-target-cap-clarification/p1
    All AoE effect abilities in ESO have a max target limit of six, and always have. The exceptions to this are Alliance War-specific abilities, and several others, which are specifically noted (in tooltips) as having a higher or lower limit. So, if an AoE’s ability tooltip does not list it as having a special number (greater than or less than 6) of targets, it was designed to affect 6 targets, maximum.

    @ezareth_ESO‌

    + I don't see how you manage to solo heal an entire raid with Grand healing unless you are a healing god....

    So I don't see how Grand healing is broken... or am I wrong ?

    Edited by Sotha_Sil on July 25, 2014 1:52PM
    Restoration is a perfectly valid school of magic, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise! - Spells and incantations for those with the talent to cast them!
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  • tinythinker
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    One other absurdly broken thing that contributes to zerg balls I think @ZOS_BrianWheeler and his team should look into is Grand Healing. I run with Grand healing on my bar and I can cast it nonstop once morphed and keep an entire group topped off during keep assaults without ever running out of mana. Unlike AOE damage, AOE healing has no cap, and there is no reason a single person should be able to heal thousands of damage a second for nearly no cost.

    Grand healing either needs to not stack (currently you can layer the spell on top of itself which increases the healing per second you're doing on every player standing in it) or they need to look at capping the number of people it can heal.

    My two characters have no racial bonuses or gear set bonuses to magicka, and only one uses at least 5 pieces of light armor. I find that each of those characters drain their magicka reserves fairly quickly in large battles when standing in the trenches of a siege attack (near a breach that is being bombarded, for example) while casting Healing Springs over and over on a large crowd. Under those conditions, it only allows people a chance to retreat or push forward without getting wiped, not to stand under heavy fire.

    Maybe if multiple people used it in such circumstances it might help keep people from dying while standing in a hot spot, but I haven't seen anyone using it that way. Maybe they do, but it doesn't seem common. I would personally rather that they raise/lift the AoE damage cap and increase the initial damage done by anti-personnel siege than reduce the effectiveness of healing. Then combine that with the aforementioned forward camp modifications (limited to radius indicated on map, shrinking that radius by 15-20%, players resurrecting with half stats and a few minutes of recovery debuff, etc), so that tactics would outweigh sheer numbers more often.


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  • Docmandu
    Docmandu
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    @xsorusb14_ESO Ah crap I worded that wrong...The merchants there now sell better Vet gear for 1.3 with better prices, but in 1.4 there will be new merchants with even more better gear. Sorry about the confusion there.

    This actually has me worried somewhat... I'm here to PvP, some amount of gearing up is fine.. but I'm worried about this turning into a gear grind game (if I'm not mistaken the panel session mentioned season gear, which has me VERY worried -- unless a season is like 6-12 months).
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  • c0rp
    c0rp
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    Thank you for this list, and constructive breakdown of PVP issues, @Halrloprillalar.

    We currently have several teams looking at the issues called out in this thread (and others) including the PVP team, and the Gameplay team. We are aware of the feedback and concerns regarding AoE caps, specifically; the Gameplay team is actively looking at AoE caps and the issues related to them very closely and carefully before making any further changes.

    Wow...a statement that the devs at least actually ACKNOWLEDGE the issue is huge. Today is a big step. It only took 2 months.

    Force weapon swap to have priority over EVERYTHING. Close enough.
    Make stamina builds even with magicka builds.
    Disable abilities while holding block.
    Give us a REASON to do dungeons more than once.
    Remove PVP AoE CAP. It is ruining Cyrodiil.
    Fix/Remove Forward Camps. They are ruining Cyrodiil.
    Impenetrability needs to REDUCE CRIT DAMAGE. Not negate entire builds.
    Werewolf is not equal to Vamps/Bats.
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  • shanersimms_ESO
    shanersimms_ESO
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    Thank you for this list, and constructive breakdown of PVP issues, @Halrloprillalar.

    We currently have several teams looking at the issues called out in this thread (and others) including the PVP team, and the Gameplay team. We are aware of the feedback and concerns regarding AoE caps, specifically; the Gameplay team is actively looking at AoE caps and the issues related to them very closely and carefully before making any further changes.

    Oh thank the ESO God's our cries have been heard! Now that we've got their attention quick everybody chant:

    "Don't cap AOE, Don't cap AOE, Don't cap AOE, Don't ca....."

    lol :)

    P.S. This isn't a request for a petition.... it is a prayer
    -Lord Shaszahan the Archmage, of The Septim Bloodline
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  • Krinaman
    Krinaman
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    Yeap...

    Hence why you just have people setup 20 Ballista's and break down the wall in about 2 to 3 minutes.

    It's actually closer to 20 seconds if you set all 20 up at once and start firing.

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