Will classes even matter after spell crafting?

DanteVFenris

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

R1ckyDaMan wrote: »

They need to tie spellcrafting to the mages guild imo, the higher your rank in the mages guild the better the spells you can craft etc.

and to the op anything that takes us further away from a pigeon hole class system the better.

You know , i always found funny how people talk like it is a major feat to get to the max lvl of the mages guild.

With that lorebook addon , it is quite simple , you know where are all the books , it only takes you a little effort to go gather them , even more if you do this while you lvl.

Some people don't use addons, I'd go as far as saying that's cheating and ruining your experience. I have searched for every one I've found with no help, and a lot of other I bet do the same. Don't treat an addon as if it's part of the game

Nox_Aeterna

DanteVFenris wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

R1ckyDaMan wrote: »

They need to tie spellcrafting to the mages guild imo, the higher your rank in the mages guild the better the spells you can craft etc.

and to the op anything that takes us further away from a pigeon hole class system the better.

You know , i always found funny how people talk like it is a major feat to get to the max lvl of the mages guild.

With that lorebook addon , it is quite simple , you know where are all the books , it only takes you a little effort to go gather them , even more if you do this while you lvl.

Some people don't use addons, I'd go as far as saying that's cheating and ruining your experience. I have searched for every one I've found with no help, and a lot of other I bet do the same. Don't treat an addon as if it's part of the game

It is irrelevant if it is part of the game or not.

It is a tool you can use if you are having trouble to find the books and that makes the task trivial.

My point is quite simple , to anyone that wants it to be , the task is really really easy, even if some will want to do it hard mode.

PS: i dont really it is cheating or running my experience , before i had the addon i just checked on google for the skyshards and books , it took more time if anything.

Kiljaz

I'm waiting for the gold tier ulties that insta gib in pvp lol

moxiesauce

Raash wrote: »

DeLindsay wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

I think it more along the lines of; for such up close and personal combat, we are still burning through our defensive stat in order to do damage.

This is why many of us have made comments and even started threads aksing ZoS to remove Defensive moves from Stamina and make a new stat called Endurance to tie all Defensive abilities to like Roll Dodge, Block, Break Free, Sprint, etc.

Good explaining there, I could not agree more with you. I do have a feeling that once z-max add this feature (since it would be one of the most logical steps to take), its gonna be an outrage for stepping away from Elder Scroll core mechanics since in the SP games block etc been tied to stamina.
I hope people can be big enough to understand that in this MMO they have group content that is of competative art and that without a balancing on this stamina users wont have the same shot of being able to compete with rest of the playerbase for spots in the raids.

I was very much in favor of adding a new resource "endurance", I even started threads for it. After seeing what the new champion system is bringing to the game I feel it will be a solution to the problem w/o adding endurance. So ZoS can stay true to TES.

arkansas_ESO

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

RequiemofMastema wrote: »

kewl wrote: »

I hope raising thralls is part of the conjuration craft line!

Same, I want a necromancer type character.

You know I WOUDLNT be surprised if they did add necromancy to learnable skills with a Necro pet to summon. This HAS been requested a LOT on the forums they would be dumb to over look. With the Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild being added to the game I would like to see some Necromancy.

It would also be HUGELY lore-breaking considering the point in time this game is taking place.

Isnt the summoning of Daedric pets HUGELY lore-breaking for this point in the game as well?

Don't think so, daedric summoning is a common thing for mages to do, in pretty much every era.

Necromancy would also be a good fit, since it's a common theme throughout ESO, even if it is the enemy's main weapon. Consider it fighting fire with fire.

arkansas_ESO

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Logan9a wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

RequiemofMastema wrote: »

kewl wrote: »

I hope raising thralls is part of the conjuration craft line!

Same, I want a necromancer type character.

You know I WOUDLNT be surprised if they did add necromancy to learnable skills with a Necro pet to summon. This HAS been requested a LOT on the forums they would be dumb to over look. With the Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild being added to the game I would like to see some Necromancy.

It would also be HUGELY lore-breaking considering the point in time this game is taking place.

Curious, how so? (Lore-breaking)

At the point in the TES historical time-line ESO is set, Necromancy was rarely practiced and very largely condemned. It was usually a secretive affair, for example I think it is mentioned in the game Veran got Mannimarco expelled from a guild due to some of his practices.

So, hundreds of PCs running about a zone as Necromancers would fly in the face of Tamriel at the time this game is taking place.

It'd be similar to vampires in this game, in that in the lore they're supposed to be sneaky villains of society that go to great lengths to hide their true form, yet every 6th person you meet is a blood-starved vampire that's whiter than porcelain.

Luvsfuzzybunnies

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Anastasia wrote: »

Not to be sarcastic here Devlinne, as your point is interesting.

But, if you are right, lol ZOS owners will become zillionaires AND they will be able to cut back their staff by a magnitude since there will be zero need to focus on BALANCE.

If that unicorn dream: "Everyone can be Everything" is achieved in TESO, no one will ever be negative about this MMO again.

Chances?

Very low. This needs to be done very carefully. If anything it will require more balancing or you are likely to end up with a single top character template not for each class but for every character in game. Also this will again make stamina builds useless for months before they come up with a stam counterpart.

I tend to agree with this side of the fence. If you did not have classes in place or you can spell craft any spell in the game then there will prove one superior build that everyone who wants to be competitive will gravitate towards. Dont get me wrong for fans of the ES franchise that would be great, but those who enjoy pvp will be gone shortly since there is no variety. Sure more skilled players will tend to win out. I however dont wanna see every enemy I encounter with dark talons, standard, bolt escape, dark cloak, impale/mages wrath and crystal frags. Or whatever the fotm build happens to be. Also dont think many people will wanna pay monthly for a single player game where all group mates are running the same build as well. Who knows though it could be a big success but I am stating I think no classes in an mmo is a horrible idea.

Raash

moxiesauce wrote: »

Raash wrote: »

DeLindsay wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

I think it more along the lines of; for such up close and personal combat, we are still burning through our defensive stat in order to do damage.

This is why many of us have made comments and even started threads aksing ZoS to remove Defensive moves from Stamina and make a new stat called Endurance to tie all Defensive abilities to like Roll Dodge, Block, Break Free, Sprint, etc.

Good explaining there, I could not agree more with you. I do have a feeling that once z-max add this feature (since it would be one of the most logical steps to take), its gonna be an outrage for stepping away from Elder Scroll core mechanics since in the SP games block etc been tied to stamina.
I hope people can be big enough to understand that in this MMO they have group content that is of competative art and that without a balancing on this stamina users wont have the same shot of being able to compete with rest of the playerbase for spots in the raids.

I was very much in favor of adding a new resource "endurance", I even started threads for it. After seeing what the new champion system is bringing to the game I feel it will be a solution to the problem w/o adding endurance. So ZoS can stay true to TES.

yeah maybe, I do see one, perhaps small, potential issue with that, and it would be forcing stamina users to take specific skills while magicka users are more free to be creative.

The_Sadist

I had a similar realisation a few days ago but kept quiet and thought perhaps I was the only one thinking this way.

Some spells look extremely handy and useful, I can see players going for a class which has the best general passives and not utilising any of the classes actual spells once spell crafting becomes a thing.
I'm also slightly annoyed. My Sorcerer has a Daedric Summoning specific tree, can summon a Storm Atronach and yet can't summon a Flame Atronach. Yes a Flame Atronach is meant to be the most basic of the 3 (originals), but still, what's the point of having the specific line if anyone can do it, perhaps even better?
I can foresee the class system disappearing entirely if this new spell system works out, with each skill appearing in game (think Morrowind, majors, minors and what have you). As it stands it seems there's going to be a few trees which each tree housing an undetermined amount of possibilities. Don't get me wrong, I love the concept, but I wish it was an option from the start and classes weren't a thing. If you're going to completely take away from classes (between the Fighter's guild, Mage's guild, World skills and weapon skills) and nobody is using class spells anymore.. you know you have an issue.

Aren_Liore

I actually think it might be a good thing for classes to become obsolete. Like others have said before, it was meant as a template and nothing more. I don't think this will happen anytime soon, or should at least. I think ZOS should add many more skill lines and abilities (which I think they will over time) but I don't think the spell crafting system alone will make class skills obsolete. I still use 3 of my class skills, and don't think that will change just because of spell crafting. I do see myself going away from class skills after many more skills and skill lines are added, both magicka and stamina based. At that point, ZOS stays true to the ES theme of play how you want, and their goal of making the classes just a template becomes just that.

I do see the concern of class passives, and everyone eventually just going with whatever class has the "best" passives, but I still don't think this will happen much, as each class has very specific passives that help you make your character into a unique person. If you are going for crit, you may want to look into picking a class with a lot of crit bonuses, while others may be looking for passives that offer something else. I don't think a few new skill lines are going to make everyone choose the same class or make them an irrelevant part of character development.

Though I don't think ZOS will make the class skills obsolete with the new spells from spell crafting. I think one of the examples here was invisibility from the illusion school of magic. I play a nightblade, so this would be a concern for me, but I think ZOS will balance the new spell to be weaker than or somehow different than shadow cloak, or change things and add effects to shadow cloak to stand out more than the new illusion spells.

It seems that most of the concern here is that these new abilities will be poorly balanced, creating a ultimate build that is better than all others. If I were any of you, I wouldn't make the "ultimate build" if there is one, because ZOS can and probably will nerf some of your critical abilities that make that build better than all the others.

None of that is to say that it will be perfect when they launch the system, but like everything else it will evolve over time to be more in line with every other ability in the game. Do I think this will make stamina builds more useless than they already are? yep, I sure do.

IcyDeadPeople

I'm excited about the possibilities.

If your class doesn't offer significant AoE spells or self healing, for example, you can create your own, even ultimates.

Snit

I hope it's a glorious mess

I know there will be balance issues. I expect them -- that's fine. If they allow me to create a variety of different spells and have truly customized skill bar, I'll be in build-tinker heaven.

I hope ZOS has the courage to go big on this. Don't stick your toes in the water. Dive in head first.

amm7sb14_ESO

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Logan9a wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

RequiemofMastema wrote: »

kewl wrote: »

I hope raising thralls is part of the conjuration craft line!

Same, I want a necromancer type character.

You know I WOUDLNT be surprised if they did add necromancy to learnable skills with a Necro pet to summon. This HAS been requested a LOT on the forums they would be dumb to over look. With the Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild being added to the game I would like to see some Necromancy.

It would also be HUGELY lore-breaking considering the point in time this game is taking place.

Curious, how so? (Lore-breaking)

At the point in the TES historical time-line ESO is set, Necromancy was rarely practiced and very largely condemned. It was usually a secretive affair, for example I think it is mentioned in the game Veran got Mannimarco expelled from a guild due to some of his practices.

So, hundreds of PCs running about a zone as Necromancers would fly in the face of Tamriel at the time this game is taking place.

I guess the question then becomes what's more important in this case - lore, or more gameplay options?

Shaun98ca2

I wouldn't expect classes to be removed but for the most part all a class will be is a starting point. Easy access to abilities in the game so you can start playing from the word go as spellcrafting is going to be NOT easy to acquire a large assortment of spells PLUS there will be different qualities of the same spells.

khele23eb17_ESO

Aren_Liore wrote: »

It seems that most of the concern here is that these new abilities will be poorly balanced, creating a ultimate build that is better than all others. If I were any of you, I wouldn't make the "ultimate build" if there is one, because ZOS can and probably will nerf some of your critical abilities that make that build better than all the others.

Youll make the ultimate build and itll last you months. Look at the pace they do balancing. If they nerf one thing people will move to another for the next 2-3 months. Also, I dont think its a good idea in an MMO to let everyone do everything. It leads to people playing next to eachother, not with eachother.

Do I think this will make stamina builds more useless than they already are? yep, I sure do.

This is my main worry. Forget about playing your bosmer archer or redguard swordmaster.

Malpherian

Anastasia wrote: »

Malpherian wrote: »

DanteVFenris wrote: »

My biggest fear is what will happen to staves and mages guild. They seem totally useless compared to what this system is offering. While I'm all for this spell crafting it's going to be awsome. What's going to stop from everyone playing these abilities? Why should I be a night blade if I can get a list of illusion spells.

So it's a double edged sword, it frees up the classes but also might make classes not as valuable. Though there are some class abilities that will stand out. I'm mostly worried about the mages guild.

I also I want to hear what they have to make stamina abilities just as badass. They need a version for stamina builds. Like "disciple training" or something where you seek out masters in certain arms.

Though again on a side note I do think it's for the best.

Like I said, this is TES game, classes are not supposed to have "Value". They are simply something to give you a nudge in the direction you want to develop your character in, with some starting abilities, Nothing else.

Character development is a personal thing, and rather then most games where you pick a class and play that class and playing that class is "the game" and never goes beyond such.

With a TES game it's the opposite, the game is about "YOU" and "YOUR" journey to develop your character into whoever, or whatever you want them to be, pretty much without limit or restriction.

Hence the reason many TES fans refused to buy the game when it released with restricted clases, as we classified it as "just another wow clone". Now, once this has been implemented it wil become something far more, and greater then WoW could ever be.

And hey, maybe the TES fans will come back.

---

>>>***"With a TES game it's the opposite, the game is about "YOU" and "YOUR" journey to develop your character into whoever, or whatever you want them to be, pretty much without limit or restriction."

Except, this is an MMORPG in a future ES setting with a modicum of ES-familiar features and easter eggs. This is NOT the next release in the ES franchise, remember?

Yes it is. According to Matt Frior.

The_Sadist

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Logan9a wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

RequiemofMastema wrote: »

kewl wrote: »

I hope raising thralls is part of the conjuration craft line!

Same, I want a necromancer type character.

You know I WOUDLNT be surprised if they did add necromancy to learnable skills with a Necro pet to summon. This HAS been requested a LOT on the forums they would be dumb to over look. With the Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild being added to the game I would like to see some Necromancy.

It would also be HUGELY lore-breaking considering the point in time this game is taking place.

Curious, how so? (Lore-breaking)

At the point in the TES historical time-line ESO is set, Necromancy was rarely practiced and very largely condemned. It was usually a secretive affair, for example I think it is mentioned in the game Veran got Mannimarco expelled from a guild due to some of his practices.

So, hundreds of PCs running about a zone as Necromancers would fly in the face of Tamriel at the time this game is taking place.

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Logan9a wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

RequiemofMastema wrote: »

kewl wrote: »

I hope raising thralls is part of the conjuration craft line!

Same, I want a necromancer type character.

You know I WOUDLNT be surprised if they did add necromancy to learnable skills with a Necro pet to summon. This HAS been requested a LOT on the forums they would be dumb to over look. With the Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild being added to the game I would like to see some Necromancy.

It would also be HUGELY lore-breaking considering the point in time this game is taking place.

Curious, how so? (Lore-breaking)

At the point in the TES historical time-line ESO is set, Necromancy was rarely practiced and very largely condemned. It was usually a secretive affair, for example I think it is mentioned in the game Veran got Mannimarco expelled from a guild due to some of his practices.

So, hundreds of PCs running about a zone as Necromancers would fly in the face of Tamriel at the time this game is taking place.

I guess the question then becomes what's more important in this case - lore, or more gameplay options?

In response to this mass of Necromancy based replies I feel the need to pipe up. As a Necromancer enthusiast I'm personally waiting for a Necromancer class.

Mannimarco wasn't ever part of the Mage's guild, he was part of the Psijic Order from which he was never actually expelled, he was simple sent to Tamriel as feeble punishment attempt and the rest is history.

Necromancy has always been hush hush but most mages experiment with it. It wouldn't be lore breaking to have a Necromancer class, fighting fire with fire sort of thing. Given that in many quest lines opposing factions utilise Necromancy against rival factions half indicates that desperate times may equal desperate measures. Ultimately I disagree with the notion of Necromancy = lore breaking.. What's more lore breaking is that every single character is gifted with magic and utilises it during quests etc etc, but that's just me.

Anyways, I already mentioned my stance on spell crafting, I love the notion, hopefully the removal of classes will follow and a major/minor system is introduced sort of thing.. but we'll see.

DeLindsay

@khele23eb17_ESO you quoted the wrong person mate, I didn't write that, @Aren_Liore did.

khele23eb17_ESO

DeLindsay wrote: »

@khele23eb17_ESO you quoted the wrong person mate, I didn't write that, @Aren_Liore did.

Fixed.

Enkil

Classes will still matter for the passives, but will be far less important than they are now. They should just be archetypal and players should have access to all the traditional skill lines just like in every Elder Scrolls game.

As far as Necromancy, It's not looked down upon any more than vampires and would be fine as a secret skill line...

Snit

Enkil wrote: »

Classes will still matter for the passives, but will be far less important than they are now.

I hope you are right. More flexibility in character-building would be true to the game's heritage and a tremendous amount of fun.

There will be FOTM builds, and we will complain about them. But that's true now -- it's always true in MMO's. A marginal increase in balance problems are a small price to pay for a huge expansion of character possibilities.

DeLindsay

Snit wrote: »

Enkil wrote: »

Classes will still matter for the passives, but will be far less important than they are now.

I hope you are right. More flexibility in character-building would be true to the game's heritage and a tremendous amount of fun.

There will be FOTM builds, and we will complain about them. But that's true now -- it's always true in MMO's. A marginal increase in balance problems are a small price to pay for a huge expansion of character possibilities.

Exactly, no matter what the MMO is there will always be FOTM builds, and people pissed their favorite playstyle isn't it. The benefit to Spellcrafting is it gives players that many more options in how they decide to play. It also brings ESO that much closer to a true TES game. I'm seriously looking forward to it and maybe even going back and trying a Stamina build again for my NB main. With the tweaks they've been pushing like the Medium Armor change, the added damage to Stamina abilities and the set changes in 1.3, it's looking good (or at least much better) for Stamina builds and Spellcrafting will help that too.

I can't wait to have an Atronach fight by my side, and/or have a new type of temporary armor that maybe has a reflect damage of some form, and Muffle... just yum.

Anvos

I'd say its too early to tell how this system will impact classes or the game without knowing more specifics that they either can't or won't release yet.

Plus their would be ways that spells could work to serve as filling in gaps in a class or just filling out elemental abilities that wouldn't have to be plain better.

Tabbycat

Classes will always give you their unique 3 skill lines. That's really all they ever did.

Aren_Liore

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Youll make the ultimate build and itll last you months. Look at the pace they do balancing. If they nerf one thing people will move to another for the next 2-3 months. Also, I dont think its a good idea in an MMO to let everyone do everything. It leads to people playing next to eachother, not with eachother.

While that's a very valid statement, I would find it a waste of time to build the best build in the game and it only last me a month or so. Sure, some people will go for it, but they will also be the same ones bitching to ZOS when their builds are balanced. I guess that's just up the the individual player.

I do see your point about people playing next to eachother instead of with eachother because anyone will eventually be able to do everything, but the problem with that is that no one will be able to do everything all at the same time. For example, I've built a character who can do heavy DPS (that's my preferred role) but can do heals and tank if I need to. I cant do it all though, I still need a dedicated healer if we run a dungeon, and most certainly a tank. Its good to be able to fill any role though, because you may be short a tank and be the only player in your party who has put any points into Heavy Armor and has some experience tanking. Plus, its a nice feeling to know that IF I want to be a dedicated tank in the distant future, I'll have that option.

Oh, and I agree 100% with your statement regarding stamina builds.

dodgehopper_ESO

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

At the point in the TES historical time-line ESO is set, Necromancy was rarely practiced and very largely condemned. It was usually a secretive affair, for example I think it is mentioned in the game Veran got Mannimarco expelled from a guild due to some of his practices.

So, hundreds of PCs running about a zone as Necromancers would fly in the face of Tamriel at the time this game is taking place.

There's tons of NPCs in tons of areas that summon/raise zombies or skeletons to fight for them. Necromancy is already in the game, just not available for the player.

Also the trailer to the game features a guy that is quite clearly a Necromancer with an undead army in toe.

Remember the lore is what ZOS Bethesda make it to be. Whatever they write/insert into the game becomes lore.

So with that in mind, Necromancy would not be out of place at all, I feel.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that Necromantic army is being headed up by Mannimarco or one of his generals. Arguing that the main enemy of the game uses it, isn't a good point for your argument. With that being said I personally don't care if other players pick up this skill line, I do think it should have a stigma associated with it, however, both within the Mages Guild and on the city streets. Don't be summoning zombies and skeletons in town. About the only people who would be semi comfortable with this are the Dunmer of Morrowind, and they have particular rules and guidelines for it (relating to ancestry).

That aside, I think spellcrafting both for stamina and magicka based skills would be great. I think its unfortunate that such a large amount of fire spells are out there, and a sliver of Lightning (Sorc), and no Ice. This makes FIre the clear winner for any kind of personal resistance against a large number of classes. Particularly when Fire has the most imposing damage. If there were proper Ice spells out there that drained stamina like they did in Skyrim, I think we'd see it getting used more... but as it is that would just be on a stave with a few choices, and hardly the same as having a class built around it like Fire has (two classes use fire. DK and Templar).

From the point of view of Fun I also think this is good. Our characters START the game as Templars, DK's, etc. We become 'the hero' from the perspective of the story. Growing beyond your initial limitations and styles is a big part of TES games. I'm all for this. I'd also like to see them find a way to use this to make Combat skills more interesting, and maybe allow us to learn weapon combinations (tap tap hold type mechanics) which might offer certain status effects or boost damage on following attacks, etc.

Laura

there is literally no way to tell right now. What we saw was pre-alpha status. Wait to see it on PTS imo.

Laura

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Logan9a wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

RequiemofMastema wrote: »

kewl wrote: »

I hope raising thralls is part of the conjuration craft line!

Same, I want a necromancer type character.

You know I WOUDLNT be surprised if they did add necromancy to learnable skills with a Necro pet to summon. This HAS been requested a LOT on the forums they would be dumb to over look. With the Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild being added to the game I would like to see some Necromancy.

It would also be HUGELY lore-breaking considering the point in time this game is taking place.

Curious, how so? (Lore-breaking)

At the point in the TES historical time-line ESO is set, Necromancy was rarely practiced and very largely condemned. It was usually a secretive affair, for example I think it is mentioned in the game Veran got Mannimarco expelled from a guild due to some of his practices.

So, hundreds of PCs running about a zone as Necromancers would fly in the face of Tamriel at the time this game is taking place.

this is why I think necromancy should be introduced as a guild after the justice system comes out. If you practice necromancy you should be barred from entering cities and maybe have a small coven area where you would do your town stuff.

The inconvenience would be very immersive and really make you feel like a necromancer while simultaneously keeping the numbers down.

I also think the justice system should make it where if someone enters town as a stage four vampire they should be attacked or at the very least they should refuse to buy or trade with you.

ExiledKhallisi

the spells will be consumable scrolls..

So yes.. classes will still matter.