Will classes even matter after spell crafting?

Shaun98ca2

kewl wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Spellcrafting will add some MUCH needed longevity to the game with a touch of exploration to find all these components.

Glad you pointed this out. Happy to see the exploration element.

I REALLY wanted to comment on this for people to clear it up. Its a touch of exploration.

You chase a ball of light. The "Doors" they talked about are probably static but here's hoping they are not.

The whole spellcrafting thing has a LOT of questions in my head. You hunt down these invisible doors to gain access to spells(this is static). But you also have to hunt down tablets on which to imprint the spells themselves(these would NOT be static) HOW we find the tablets is currently a mystery unless your chasing the ball of light for the tablets as well.

Maulkin

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

First, my comment is based on cause and effect, my views of the two aspects of the game don't come into it. I won't deny your observation of my position is wrong, but my comment is easily seen to be true simply by reading the forums over time and seeing what ZOS do: the nerf to the DK 'pull' skill being merely one of hundreds where PVE play was negatively affected by PVP QQing.

Cause and effect work both ways. What I said is that you statements implies only cause in PvP and effect in PvE, while I gave you examples of the opposite also being true.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Second, I never see PVE balance discussed in terms of PC vs. mob, it's in terms of class X being unwanted (in group content) because class Y is better or, in the case of the VR debate some classes could easily solo their way through while others couldn't progress beyond VR3 or so.

Yes that's also what I said. That skills get adjusted because it's possible/easier for a class to solo group/veteran content by using them. The same skills could have been perfectly fine in Cyrodiil.

I got a vibe from your post that you feel only PvP causes skills nerfs and adjustments. If I got it wrong fine, but if you feel QQ comes only from PvPer to affect skills, then you couldn't be more wrong.

Devlinne

Well if we are able to create so called "any" skill, then i would say, this is the ultimate answer to nerf crying.
I mean, you can't cry about ANY class being op, if you yourself can mimic those skills.
That being said...we don't really know how it's going to be implemented and what degree of creation or editing or ANYTHING we can do with spellcrafting yet.
I just hope it is what i think it is.
Cos people who rolled classes to max level and then only realised that some other classes has awesome skills.....those are the ones that complained/unsubbed/etc...cos they didn't want to level a whole different charcater again.
If spell crafting made it possible for them to recreate the spells which they percieve to be awesome on some other class...i suspect, alot of complaints would die off, and alot of people would be happy.

Maulkin

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

At the point in the TES historical time-line ESO is set, Necromancy was rarely practiced and very largely condemned. It was usually a secretive affair, for example I think it is mentioned in the game Veran got Mannimarco expelled from a guild due to some of his practices.

So, hundreds of PCs running about a zone as Necromancers would fly in the face of Tamriel at the time this game is taking place.

There's tons of NPCs in tons of areas that summon/raise zombies or skeletons to fight for them. Necromancy is already in the game, just not available for the player.

Also the trailer to the game features a guy that is quite clearly a Necromancer with an undead army in toe.

Remember the lore is what ZOS Bethesda make it to be. Whatever they write/insert into the game becomes lore.

So with that in mind, Necromancy would not be out of place at all, I feel.

Chuggernaut

I think the classes should be removed and all the skill lines given given a weighted score, and a new character can only spend so many points. That way if I want to take the Sorcerer Daedric summoning and Lightning skill lines with the Dragon Knight Earthen Heart I could so long as the skill lines fall below whatever max point total they impose. Additionally they could add some kind of incentive for staying with your original skill line. Like if you go all Dragon Knight you get a buff to some stat or something.

SirJesto

rob.shzaub17_ESO wrote: »

I think the classes should be removed and all the skill lines given given a weighted score, and a new character can only spend so many points. That way if I want to take the Sorcerer Daedric summoning and Lightning skill lines with the Dragon Knight Earthen Heart I could so long as the skill lines fall below whatever max point total they impose. Additionally they could add some kind of incentive for staying with your original skill line. Like if you go all Dragon Knight you get a buff to some stat or something.

So at character creation, instead of just choosing a class, you would choose your skills with a point spending system. Interesting.

Aeratus

I really do not like the sound of spellcrafting, simply on a basis of balance.

Stamina builds have been underpowered and it's been four freaking months and they still haven't fixed the balance. How do you expect them to get spellcrafting right if they can't even fix a balance problem between stamina and magicka?

Shaun98ca2

Devlinne wrote: »

Well if we are able to create so called "any" skill, then i would say, this is the ultimate answer to nerf crying.
I mean, you can't cry about ANY class being op, if you yourself can mimic those skills.
That being said...we don't really know how it's going to be implemented and what degree of creation or editing or ANYTHING we can do with spellcrafting yet.
I just hope it is what i think it is.
Cos people who rolled classes to max level and then only realised that some other classes has awesome skills.....those are the ones that complained/unsubbed/etc...cos they didn't want to level a whole different charcater again.
If spell crafting made it possible for them to recreate the spells which they percieve to be awesome on some other class...i suspect, alot of complaints would die off, and alot of people would be happy.

They gave a good view of how the crafting will work and so far it makes a LOT of sense.

There are spell pieces. You put these pieces together like a puzzle to make a picture. From the demo there was I think 5 slots for pieces. So you would take a base spell and add components to it like AE or duration ie DOT. Very little is actually know about the pieces of the spells themselves but you do get a good idea of what your working with from the video from Quakecon.

Thechemicals

The guy presenting spellcrafting says he has a way for it not to be overpowered then doesnt actually say how....he just talks about having to explore for them.

Samadhi

I think that the tweaks in the system will be just enough that they don't quite replace classes, but they blur the lines between classes a bit further.

For example, spell crafting has a Muffle spell that increases sneak capability.
But I'm kind of suspecting it has Muffle in place of any form of Invisibility, so that Nightblade still has a "unique" stealth capability.

That's just my expectations though, it could easily be incorrect.

Dilly_Waffles

Of course classes are still necessary. Imagine it without them. Dumped into the world with a light and heavy attack, no skills until you're lucky enough to find the three materials needed to craft a spell or sink your first couple thousand gold into spellcraft mats, which I imagine could almost be as rare as motifs.

Even at that, you'd get almost randomized, badly made spells.

Classes are the perfect template, not only for characters in general from lvl1-50, but also for people brand new to MMOs, which TES undoubtedly has brought and will bring. Pre-vet is almost entirely PvE and classes allow a new player to understand the roles available in MMOs through group dungeons etc.

Once you hit Vet you understand the game better and will soon be able to fine tune your build without limitations; to exactly what you want in a character.

Spellcrafting looks amazing and if ZOS can really put the heads down and get it properly balanced then it will add a crazy amount to end game content.

moxiesauce

Aeratus wrote: »

I really do not like the sound of spellcrafting, simply on a basis of balance.

Stamina builds have been underpowered and it's been four freaking months and they still haven't fixed the balance. How do you expect them to get spellcrafting right if they can't even fix a balance problem between stamina and magicka?

You're like the millionth person to say that. Stam builds are getting a HUGE buff in update 3, simply from better gear options, not to mention they are aware the abilities just don't hit as hard as they should.
Also just because it's called "SPELL" crafting does not mean it's only use is for mage type players. There are going to be many abilities that will benefit stamina based characters, Example they noted: an ability to trade magicka for stamina, Like the mage guild ability. Also I'm sure TG tree will be based on stam, maybe even DBH. It's broken now, but will be fixed long before spellcrafting is released.

Anastasia

Malpherian wrote: »

DanteVFenris wrote: »

My biggest fear is what will happen to staves and mages guild. They seem totally useless compared to what this system is offering. While I'm all for this spell crafting it's going to be awsome. What's going to stop from everyone playing these abilities? Why should I be a night blade if I can get a list of illusion spells.

So it's a double edged sword, it frees up the classes but also might make classes not as valuable. Though there are some class abilities that will stand out. I'm mostly worried about the mages guild.

I also I want to hear what they have to make stamina abilities just as badass. They need a version for stamina builds. Like "disciple training" or something where you seek out masters in certain arms.

Though again on a side note I do think it's for the best.

Like I said, this is TES game, classes are not supposed to have "Value". They are simply something to give you a nudge in the direction you want to develop your character in, with some starting abilities, Nothing else.

Character development is a personal thing, and rather then most games where you pick a class and play that class and playing that class is "the game" and never goes beyond such.

With a TES game it's the opposite, the game is about "YOU" and "YOUR" journey to develop your character into whoever, or whatever you want them to be, pretty much without limit or restriction.

Hence the reason many TES fans refused to buy the game when it released with restricted clases, as we classified it as "just another wow clone". Now, once this has been implemented it wil become something far more, and greater then WoW could ever be.

And hey, maybe the TES fans will come back.

---

>>>***"With a TES game it's the opposite, the game is about "YOU" and "YOUR" journey to develop your character into whoever, or whatever you want them to be, pretty much without limit or restriction."

Except, this is an MMORPG in a future ES setting with a modicum of ES-familiar features and easter eggs. This is NOT the next release in the ES franchise, remember?

Anastasia

Devlinne wrote: »

Well if we are able to create so called "any" skill, then i would say, this is the ultimate answer to nerf crying.
I mean, you can't cry about ANY class being op, if you yourself can mimic those skills.
That being said...we don't really know how it's going to be implemented and what degree of creation or editing or ANYTHING we can do with spellcrafting yet.
I just hope it is what i think it is.
Cos people who rolled classes to max level and then only realised that some other classes has awesome skills.....those are the ones that complained/unsubbed/etc...cos they didn't want to level a whole different charcater again.
If spell crafting made it possible for them to recreate the spells which they percieve to be awesome on some other class...i suspect, alot of complaints would die off, and alot of people would be happy.

---

Not to be sarcastic here Devlinne, as your point is interesting.

But, if you are right, lol ZOS owners will become zillionaires AND they will be able to cut back their staff by a magnitude since there will be zero need to focus on BALANCE.

If that unicorn dream: "Everyone can be Everything" is achieved in TESO, no one will ever be negative about this MMO again.

Chances?

Saavuj

crislevin wrote: »

To me, it sounds like they have nothing else for players to do other than fight, fight, and more fight. Like build a house, like establish a political faction, like participate in political affairs, etc.

Let's see how it is implemented.

I don't want to play at real life. I want to decapitate, eviscerate, and burn my enemies to the ground. You can play house if you want.

Raash

I think spellcrafting looks very promising and I think it will add to the fun of the game. I do however wish they choosen to wait with it and add something cool for stamina users as well, the game is already very in favor of magicians.

khele23eb17_ESO

Anastasia wrote: »

Not to be sarcastic here Devlinne, as your point is interesting.

But, if you are right, lol ZOS owners will become zillionaires AND they will be able to cut back their staff by a magnitude since there will be zero need to focus on BALANCE.

If that unicorn dream: "Everyone can be Everything" is achieved in TESO, no one will ever be negative about this MMO again.

Chances?

Very low. This needs to be done very carefully. If anything it will require more balancing or you are likely to end up with a single top character template not for each class but for every character in game. Also this will again make stamina builds useless for months before they come up with a stam counterpart.

DeLindsay

DanteVFenris wrote: »

Will classes even matter after spell crafting?

I hope not because after all most TES fans didn't want the locked Class system present in the game right now. It will still matter for a few of the Class only abilities/passives since you won't be able to reproduce them via Spellcrafting. All this mechanic will do is bring ESO that much closer to TES games that had an open Class system, where you were whatever you wanted to be at any time throughout playing the game.

Shunravi

I sincerely hope that any and every future change renders class more and more obsolite. They should not have been included in the first place, even as 'templates'. Many TES fans would not even touch the game because of classes.
I know the reasons they are there, but there could have been other ways to do it. But what's done is done.

Anastasia

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Anastasia wrote: »

Not to be sarcastic here Devlinne, as your point is interesting.

But, if you are right, lol ZOS owners will become zillionaires AND they will be able to cut back their staff by a magnitude since there will be zero need to focus on BALANCE.

If that unicorn dream: "Everyone can be Everything" is achieved in TESO, no one will ever be negative about this MMO again.

Chances?

Very low. This needs to be done very carefully. If anything it will require more balancing or you are likely to end up with a single top character template not for each class but for every character in game. Also this will again make stamina builds useless for months before they come up with a stam counterpart.

---

Absolutely khele23eb17. Would be awesome if they added in substantial stam corrections now, BEFORE Spell Crafting, BEFORE three more updates stretch stam characters hope out way too thin by months and months...

DeLindsay

Anastasia wrote: »

Absolutely khele23eb17. Would be awesome if they added in substantial stam corrections now, BEFORE Spell Crafting, BEFORE three more updates stretch stam characters hope out way too thin by months and months...

You mean like the change to Wind Walker in Medium Armor that added cost reduction to exactly mirror Evocation in Light Armor that they already did. Or do you mean the increase in damage to multiple Stamina based abilities like Poison Arrow that they already did. Wait, maybe you mean like all the crafted set bonus changes in 1.3 (hits in 2-3 weeks) that CLEARLY favor Stamina builds. I got it, you mean the additional increase to base damage of even more Stamina based abilities that they are still working on implementing like they said in the Quakecon video.

Chill dude, they ARE working on Stamina based builds and Spellcrafting has nothing to do with the work they are doing to balance Magicka-Stamina builds. In fact Spellcrafting will HELP Stamina based builds, while adding mostly utility to Magicka builds.

Shunravi

DeLindsay wrote: »

Anastasia wrote: »

Absolutely khele23eb17. Would be awesome if they added in substantial stam corrections now, BEFORE Spell Crafting, BEFORE three more updates stretch stam characters hope out way too thin by months and months...

You mean like the change to Wind Walker in Medium Armor that added cost reduction to exactly mirror Evocation in Light Armor that they already did. Or do you mean the increase in damage to multiple Stamina based abilities like Poison Arrow that they already did. Wait, maybe you mean like all the crafted set bonus changes in 1.3 (hits in 2-3 weeks) that CLEARLY favor Stamina builds. I got it, you mean the additional increase to base damage of even more Stamina based abilities that they are still working on implementing like they said in the Quakecon video.

Chill dude, they ARE working on Stamina based builds and Spellcrafting has nothing to do with the work they are doing to balance Magicka-Stamina builds. In fact Spellcrafting will HELP Stamina based builds, while adding mostly utility to Magicka builds.

I think it more along the lines of; for such up close and personal combat, we are still burning through our defensive stat in order to do damage.

DeLindsay

Shunravi wrote: »

I think it more along the lines of; for such up close and personal combat, we are still burning through our defensive stat in order to do damage.

This is why many of us have made comments and even started threads aksing ZoS to remove Defensive moves from Stamina and make a new stat called Endurance to tie all Defensive abilities to like Roll Dodge, Block, Break Free, Sprint, etc.

Raash

DeLindsay wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

I think it more along the lines of; for such up close and personal combat, we are still burning through our defensive stat in order to do damage.

This is why many of us have made comments and even started threads aksing ZoS to remove Defensive moves from Stamina and make a new stat called Endurance to tie all Defensive abilities to like Roll Dodge, Block, Break Free, Sprint, etc.

Good explaining there, I could not agree more with you. I do have a feeling that once z-max add this feature (since it would be one of the most logical steps to take), its gonna be an outrage for stepping away from Elder Scroll core mechanics since in the SP games block etc been tied to stamina.
I hope people can be big enough to understand that in this MMO they have group content that is of competative art and that without a balancing on this stamina users wont have the same shot of being able to compete with rest of the playerbase for spots in the raids.

R1ckyDaMan

They need to tie spellcrafting to the mages guild imo, the higher your rank in the mages guild the better the spells you can craft etc.

and to the op anything that takes us further away from a pigeon hole class system the better.

DeLindsay

R1ckyDaMan wrote: »

They need to tie spellcrafting to the mages guild imo, the higher your rank in the mages guild the better the spells you can craft etc.

and to the op anything that takes us further away from a pigeon hole class system the better.

I'm pretty sure it is tied to the Mage's Guild. I'd have to re-watch the Quakecon video to clarify though.

Tremulous

R1ckyDaMan wrote: »

They need to tie spellcrafting to the mages guild imo, the higher your rank in the mages guild the better the spells you can craft etc.

and to the op anything that takes us further away from a pigeon hole class system the better.

from what I can tell you'll need to be higher level to create better spells. finding spells stones in other factions zones and such.

DanteVFenris

I hope the mages guild ties into these spells or else the guild will pretty much feel useless. And a waste of development. Sure the mages guild will have unique abilities but it'll pail in comparison to spell crafting so I'm hoping the mages guild enhances spells in some way

Nox_Aeterna

R1ckyDaMan wrote: »

They need to tie spellcrafting to the mages guild imo, the higher your rank in the mages guild the better the spells you can craft etc.

and to the op anything that takes us further away from a pigeon hole class system the better.

You know , i always found funny how people talk like it is a major feat to get to the max lvl of the mages guild.

With that lorebook addon , it is quite simple , you know where are all the books , it only takes you a little effort to go gather them , even more if you do this while you lvl.

Gix

I always felt like classes were more like flavours than anything else. Like, if you wanted to play a dark caster, a Nightblade in robes will do fine.

I doubt spellcrafting will be as flexible as it was in Morrowind or Oblivion. It'll give ESO an Oblivion-esque feel but, like the guy said, it'll be similar to morphing abilities.

...not to mention that each spell effect need to be searched and found.. so no, that won't undermine the class.