Veteran System Changes Preview

Xsorus

Given the choice between more difficult content or difficult vr content that i've already leveled through on my DK, vs making it easier for people are having trouble with it...I'll choose making it easier every single time.

I've seen the content, It wasn't that difficult to begin with, But i'd rather have more subscribers and easier content then less subscribers and harder content.

Simply because more subscribers in general equals more content in general.

SlayerSyrena

I'm glad ZOS is listening to the customers about the difficulty in the vet zones but, the biggest problem I've had with vet content is just getting over the idea that I'm helping the enemy. I love the stories and lore in ESO, but, in vet zones I find myself clicking through the dialogue often.

"I don't care about these people" *click click* "Why am I helping the enemy" *click click*

I'd rather experience these zones on an alt, personally. I really hope there will be more faction content for vets later on. (The whole, have your chara enter the other alliance as a hidden enemy/assassin is awesome, but I imagine that'd be difficult to implement).

Lyall84

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

to all your people excited for it to be easier, cant wait to meet you in pvp

Funny...pvp is many times easier than VR content. That is where I went to blow off steam when getting tired of holding my face to the cheese grater that is higher VR content.

Akhratos

SootyTX wrote: »

Mujuro wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Well, this may make me less proud of my 'tamriel hero' achievement, and as much as i like the difficulty, i suppose this is good for those who don't. honestly i have mixed feelings about this. I want to see more people in the vet zones, to be sure, but dumbing stuff down does not make me feel too good about it. idk.. the challenge was like a breath of fresh air compared to how easy the content was getting. i finally had to actually care about what i was doing vs just pressing a few buttons to see what happens.
i honestly wish there was more i could say... maybe make the sabotage option people are asking for, then return cadwell's to its current state? or have a special something for those of us who have done it at this difficulty? idk, something.

After Monday, that title will mean little. I wish ZOS would find some suitable way to reward those of us who got through all of this the "hard way", rather than just doing the, "yes, we screwed you very much, have a nice day".

Define 'hard-way'? Pre-1.1.2 wasn't anything like as difficult as it is now. Wearing a dress and using a stick isn't even remotely as difficult as a medium or heavy armour stamina based melee build.

Why is your self-worth dependent on other people seeing you have a certain title, that even if it existed, is still going to be meaningless? Why is allowing other players to enjoy the game such a personal affront to you?

1st Rule of the proud "hard-way" eso veteran:
Never read patch notes.

2nd Rule.
Disregard "new" veterans while oldest ones already made it easier than both "hard-way" and "new" veterans post Craglorn. Free dungeons boss farming (cough fungal, cough spindle..) and delve boss for free gear/pots/crystals/xp and all the nerfed mechanics that required doing nothing, heard of it?

3rd Rule.
Cry like a drama queen for a proper shinny crown.

You will always succeeds at rule two if you respect rule one.

Signed: A former "oldest", actual "hard-way" and future "new" eso veteran hero who likes breaking rules.

Mujuro

Lyall84 wrote: »

Ever step into VR spindle clutch or Craiglorn prior to VR10? Just curious.

Yes to both.

Lyall84

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

I have to say, I am somewhat disappointed by this decision. I really wish ZOS would erect the spine of standing up to the whiners already, but it seems with this company whenever the vocal minority complains they get whatever they want even if it ruins the game for the rest of us.

I will reserve final judgement however until I see how easy they actually make it...

I have felt all along that veteran zones were very well balanced even for solo play. 1-50 was actually boringly easy. I know that the majority of the player base was complaining about it being too hard though, so I understand in a way why ZOS felt the need to abandon their vision and concede defeat to the calls for a difficulty nerf, but still, a bit disappointing.

I honestly feel that part of the blame lies with the players. I think there is some overly stubborn refusal to try new skills and abilities to get through content, and people abuse the "play how you want" cliche to assume the should be able to beat things with fishsticks and win if they want to.

I really hope this isn't the beginning of the dumbing down of Elder Scrolls to WoW faceroll status, but I guess the vocal complaints always get what they want, so it was probably inevitable.

I have already been facerolling content with some minimal CC and actually using the mechanics we are given, and my fear is this will not only abandon the vision of veteran content as end game but also completely trivialize the whole purpose of block and rolldodge mechanics.

Skill? "Ain't no one got time for that!"

I erect the spine of my bruising sense of betrayal.

Read my post from above, they are clearly the majority, be it vocal or silent. Zenimax wouldn't make these changes if it was not causing enough of a financial impact to actually be an issue.

Lyall84

psychoman88ub17_ESO wrote: »

Lyall84 wrote: »

Just a shout out to all people linking care bear and nerf bat and complaining about how it should be this hard...reality check. VR content is easy, and boring. I already have made it to VR12, doing every quest up until my VR 10 area ( stopped half way through), and every area was the same, easy, boring, frustrating pattern.

Attack, kill one mob.
Die, revive.
Attack, kill remaining one or two mobs.
When gear broke or I leveled up, make new gear.
Repeat.

This is very easy, very boring, very frustrating. In no way is it hard once you accept the fact that you need to either do a lot of running from way shrines or spend 30 to 50 soul gems each zone reviving. That is the part that is unacceptable. Should delves be hard enough to somewhat force you to groups? Absolutely. Should phasing "solo" quests or open world quests be so hard to force you to group? Absolutely not.

You need to let go of the misplaced pride you had in being so stubborn that dieing would not stop you from leveling and realize that while this is a game, above all, ZeniMax is a business. For them to be successful and keep this game running they need to retain customers. To do that, the difficult content needs to be optional. That is why most MMOs consider the PVP the end game content, because it is as easy or as hard as the player base makes it, and is optional. So any main stream questing and leveling needs to be set to a level that will keep people playing, not quitting after dumping 20 grand soul gems just to complete all the quests in their first VR zone.

You must really suck...lol

More like honesty. Or you trying to honestly tell me that you did all the VR content, solo, with out dying a ridiculous amount of times? At least the other people on the side that likes how hard it is has the honesty to admit that they died a bunch, just that they liked how it was hard enough to make them die that many times.

You on the other hand...have no basis on making the claim that I must suck. Did I at the beginning? Sure, we were all noobs once. Anyone that tries to claim they were born a good player and knew how to play perfect from the first time they logged in clearly is full of themselves or is insecure about something.

Khaaz

Zenimax does not seem to understand peoples issues with the Veteran system.

If they want to fix the Veteran system, all they have to do is make it so that gear level requirements never go above 50. That way players don't feel like they NEED to hit the max VR level to compete in trials or PvP; however they'd still have the option to keep doing more challenging quests in VR zones and they would be rewarded for doing so by gaining minor attribute bonuses from increasing your VR level.

VR levels should be OPTIONAL. They should just be a small reward for players who want to complete all of the quests in the game at a higher difficulty, NOT a requirement.

As long as the best gear in the game requires the highest VR levels, then hitting the max VR level will be seen as a REQUIREMENT, and due to that it'll just feel like another grind to max level. This defeats the purpose of having a VR system at all - you might as well just raise the level cap from 50 to 60 to 62, etc.

timidobserver

This change doesn't help me, but I can say that I know dozens of people that have quit this game over an issue with how veteran content works. If the changes works for the masses I can live with it. -shrug-

Rescorla_ESO

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌

I really wish ZOS would keep the difficulty as is and just significantly increase the amount of EXP you get from mob kills and quest turns in. IMO the veteran content should be a notch or two harder than level 1-50 content.

Also, unnerf EXP gain in dungeons to the level it was at during closed beta to where running dungeons, both regular and veteran, is a viable way to level at a reasonable rate.

Lastly, unnerf EXP gain in Cyrodil so that is a viable option as well.

Jade_Knightblazerb14_ESO

Jason7xnub18_ESO wrote: »

-Snip-

This one gets it.

Enkil

Thanks for the update and responding to our feedback.

Goresnort

Dear ZOS

First off I'd like to thank you for being continually communicative and putting forward your future plans on a regular basis. Thank you for your responses in the threads on these forums and taking an active approach to addressing player concerns.

I'm one of those players so vehemently opposed to the structuring of the current Vet content, I call it the scourge of the game.

I'm primarily a group focused player, and I play MMO's to enjoy PvP and challenging PvE together with other players.

My utter distaste for the OAV (Other Alliance Veteran) zones has never had anything remotely to do with difficulty scaling.

My main objection to these zones in their current pre-nerf state, is that they are not entirely optional. To a large extent, they are a part of the games progression hierarchy regardless of your preferred play style, they feel like a cheap re-hash of content, and somewhat forced upon group PvE and PvP oriented players, who could not care less about having more solo PvE content in the end game or repeating what is essentially trumped up leveling zones.

As a player that came into the game with little TES experience, and mainly out of a mmorpg preference;

pcgamer.com/uk/2014/07/03/the-state-of-elder-scrolls-online-3-months-after-launch/

That '3-month-in review' hit the nail on the head so hard, it is astounding.

The summary of the veteran content goes right at the throat, of why in my opinion, mmorpg focused players are dwindling out of our guilds, after having paid their respects to Molag Bal.

Especially notice how little emphasis the reviewer places on vet zone difficulty.

'That's not to say that the challenge isn't welcome—it encourages player interaction in a way the 1-50 experience seldom did'

The main complaint in that article is not how hard or easy it is, it is instead directed how it is implemented.

'ESO's oh-so-conflicted desire to remain true to the single-player games holds it back. Take it from Elsa, ZeniMax: Let it go.'

The story content up until level 50 was an excellent journey. It was neither too long, or too short. It had lots of great group dungeons, and before the speed grinded BIS vet 10's started appearing, even the PvP was a fun albeit slow leveling process. It was more then enough, and once it was done, I had no interest in further progression hurdles to jump through, before getting to what for me is the main attraction of these types of games. Group endgame content.

According to the statements of ZOS, the game was supposed to 'open' up at level 50, and we were supposed to be able to choose our own endgame. At least that was my personal interpretation of a vauge statement, I could be wrong.

At 6:42 to 7:03 in this introductory vid - https://youtube.com/watch?v=KxJTsq2XeKY&feature=player_embedded

While my comprehension of 'opening up' may be totally off, I understood this to mean the following.

I thought at level 50, the PvP oriented players were supposed to be able to choose to go into end game PvP, and have that as their best option for veteran gameplay and progression.

I thought at level 50, the group oriented PvE'ers would be able to choose to go into group dungeons and trials, and have that as their best option for veteran gameplay and progression.

I thought at level 50, the solo/duo/small-group oriented PvE players would be able to choose to go into the OAV, and have that as their best option for veteran gameplay and progression.

Unfortunately ZOS introduced a alternate leveling system, where xp rewards were heavily screwed towards repetition grinding of easy PvE content, and thus effectively gating group PvE and PvP players away from their preferred veteran game.
Aggravating this situation, the hopefully soon to be addressed phasing issues, separated players that wanted to play together in the story content of the OAV.

It is indicative that this current proposed solution, only partially addresses the symptoms of player dismay with ESO, and does not address the root cause of the issues.
You even see that in this thread, where players are asking for faster xp for grinding in the OAV, so they can get it done and over with, and progress to play the content they enjoy the most. Why do these players even have to bother with the OAV in the first place?
The OAV should be about experiencing story content and fun challenges for the players that prefer the solo/duo/small-group experience. It's main attraction should not be about efficient xp grinding. That in my opinion negates the purpose of the OAV and makes in superfluous and unwanted content for many types of players.

I sincerely hope that in addition to these difficulty changes to the OAV, you are also considering more comprehensive solutions.

Here are some possible suggestions. I hope other players are able to provide better ones.

• Add xp and rewards to PvP, so PvP oriented players can skip the OAV and PvE xp repetition grind, and choose PvP as their best veteran experience after level 50.
  
• Add bracketed pvp campaigns, so pre level 50 PvP players can have a enjoyable PvP leveling experience. Shame to divide up the pvp player base like that, but it is a unfortunate consequence of having veteran ranks in the game.
  
• Add xp and rewards to veteran dungeons, so group oriented PvE players can skip the OAV and xp repetition grind, and choose group PvE dungeons and trials as their best veteran experience after level 50.
  
• Alternatively/additionally, It is odd that the first 6 veteran dungeons were Vet rank 1-5 and Vet rank 6-10. BC, Spindle and Fungal ought to have been VR 1 dungeons. Wayrest, Darkshade and EH ought to have been VR 2 dungeons. Crypt of Harts ought to have been the first VR 3 dungeon.
  
• Alternatively/additionally, It is odd that the first true new veteran zone, Craglorn, was group only content. It should have been a mix of solo/duo and group content similar to the earlier zones. Again, player choice.
  
• Alternatively/additionally, It is odd that the first true new veteran zone, Craglorn, was a VR 10-12 zone. Again, player choice. It ought to have been a VR 1-2 zone. The next new zone after Craglorn could be a VR 3-4 zone.

Anyways. That was my advice to ZOS.

Here is my advice to the player base.

We should not let ourselves be shackled by our currently achieved ranks, titles, colored pixels, achievements and what not.
We should focus on the future and longevity of the game, and the game's ability to retain players, recruit new players, and bring back some of those that quit.

That is what in the long run will bring more content and development that will benefit everyone, regardless of individually preferred play style.


Best regards.

Mr. Snort
ESO Fanboy/man/dude/thing.

P.S
If you enjoyed that long winded post, and your eyeballs are longing for more punishment:
forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/111021/my-current-eso-feedback

Zero_Tolerance

Well, too bad but it always happens. Never make it harder, always make it easier, in all MMOs.

Why don't you make a difficulty adjustment for quests/instances, like in DDO for example? Then carebears can do their *** on casual/normal, wannabes can try and fail at hard and normal players would have elite and epic setting to enjoy.

LonePirate

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌

I really wish ZOS would keep the difficulty as is and just significantly increase the amount of EXP you get from mob kills and quest turns in. IMO the veteran content should be a notch or two harder than level 1-50 content.

Veteran content is currently 7-8 notches harder than the 1-50 content. It sounds like the changes forthcoming will make it 4-5 notches harder. I wouldn't be surprised if the hardcore players barely notice the changes while the other 75% of the game's players can actually play AND enjoy the content.

dean_steusloffub17_ESO

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone,


Starting next week on Monday, July 7th, you’ll see the first significant change we’re making to the Veteran System. We’re implementing some balance changes to content in post-50 zones that will make it much more like the content from levels 1-50.

I'm scared. Unfortunately, since the majority of the people that post do so because they don't like something, that is what a good portion of changes and tweaks are based on.

What isn't taken into consideration is the number of people that LIKE the challenge. I'm sure we'll be hearing from them shortly (as in when the changes go into effect).

You should consider putting something in-game (a one-time occurrence) that asks people what they think about certain things. People aren't going to flock to the forums to say "I LOVE <whatever>", but if there's something that pops up in game, people would be more inclined to volunteer feedback. Of course, there's going to be people that hate being bothered by stuff like this, but then they should lose their right to complain if they don't offer any response.

This is something that is going to affect a large portion of the playerbase, and that is NOT being accurately represented here.

psychoman88ub17_ESO

LonePirate wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

I honestly think removing group elements from an MMO is never a good idea in general, especially if you replace that group element in the open world with pointless dungeon grinding like Blizzard did and obviously ZO wants to do as well.

Sad news, again a vocal minority had a huge impact on an MMO.

You are mistaken if you think it was a vocal minority who was clamoring for these changes. It has been much more like a vocal majority, probably upwards of 75% of the players have requested the Veteran content's difficulty be toned down. The hardcore players who enjoyed the current Veteran content or wanted it to be even more difficult are the quiet minority here.

In fact, they are so quiet that requests for groups or help with quests in the upper VR zones are never answered. I can spend hours in the VR8-10 zones and never see another player. Where are all of these people who enjoy the Veteran content and why aren't they helping people? You simply cannot have (practically required) group content in a game when there are no players to group with, either due to low populations or players who refuse to help others. For the good of the game, ZOS had to act and I am glad they have. We all owe them a big thank you.

Forum whiners are a vocal minority. The majority is having fun playing.

Catches_the_Sun

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Where do you people even come from? Are you equipped with discontent sensors or something?

All I've ever seen regarding Vet Levels is people talking about how hard it is or people talking about how it isn't so bad. Never seen anyone go, "You know, I really dig it being super tough and double-tedious."

Then a Dev mentions that their going to make it marginally less difficult and you people just swarm all over it with *** like, "Oh, Eldernerf Online amirite, lolz. Gimmie an achievement for doing the hard way. I need validation or I'm cancelling my sub!"

I've held the same position since day 1. Never had an issue with Veteran content and enjoyed it in it's current state. Most of the complaints came from people who can't stand to not receive a reward via/level up or loot every single play session. They don't like to receive 1 veteran rank in the time that they are used to receiving 10 levels. They are not used to putting forth effort to receive reward in the form of achieving max level.

This change was inevitable because MMOs are just not what they used to be. There is no more challenge because somewhere along the way people started to feel that "challenge" does not equal "fun". These days people want reward without risk or penalty, meaningful decisions without opportunity for negative consequences, and they want exploration without any chance of missing anything. They want to sell all their wares while they're logged off. They want little markers to tell them where to pick up quests and additional markers to tell them where to achieve quest objectives, and a final marker to tell them where to turn in their quest...then they'll complain that the game "isn't immersive" or doesn't "allow for exploration".

FFS, after several years hiatus from MMO gaming after WoW changed the genre to a solo genre, I finally came back to ESO for DAOC-style large scale RvR, the Veteran PvE challenge, and all I've seen are continuous "adjustments" to make the game more "WoW-like". Look forward to the Auction House & end-game gear grind announcements, but I'll be hearing them from the outside.

Mortosk

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone,

One of the topics we frequently get feedback on is ESO’s Veteran content. Some of you may have seen our recent comments about changes we have in store for ESO’s post-50 experience. We want you to know we’ve been listening to your suggestions and concerns, but more importantly, we want to tell you what we’re doing about them. Today, we have an update from the ESO Dev Team to share with you.

Some of the concerns you’ve called out are: Veteran content is too much of a departure from the level 1 to 50 experience, playing and leveling through it is too much of a grind, and that the rewards you get don’t match the effort you have to put in to progress.

One of the guiding principles of our Veteran gameplay was to encourage you (not force you) to group. We wanted you to be able to reach max level by playing solo if you wished, but still encourage you to group with others along the way. This principle was the reason we made our post-50 zones more difficult; we wanted you to get together with others to take on tougher challenges and form social bonds while you did so. But we understand that, despite our vision, this is not how all our players want to experience the game beyond level 50.

We recognize that many of you love the game you played while leveling up, and that you feel the post-50 zones are too much of a departure from that experience. We hear your requests to continue participating in solo content as you progress through Veteran Ranks, and we’re acting on that feedback.

Starting next week on Monday, July 7th, you’ll see the first significant change we’re making to the Veteran System. We’re implementing some balance changes to content in post-50 zones that will make it much more like the content from levels 1-50. Our goal is to remove the feeling of “I have just hit a wall of difficulty” that many of you have expressed—you’ll be able to solo much more easily. This is just the first of many large-scale changes coming to ESO’s Veteran System, and we encourage you to watch our QuakeCon panel on Friday, July 17th, where we’ll go into much more detail about the other parts.

Thank you for sticking with us, sharing your concerns, and supporting a game we all love.

Thanks for the update.

I imagine the rewards for veteran leveling is being looked at as well? Do you have any information on that? Something other than a costume every 5 veteran levels I hope?

Also, can you address the fact that the veteran mobs and veteran quests don't give nearly enough experience points, and that is the main reason the grind is so bad. Shouldn't just doing the story quest Cadwell's Silver and Gold be sufficient to get a person to V10? Because it currently is not even close.

Mortosk

Maverick827 wrote: »

The difficulty of leveling content shouldn't be a concern. Dungeons should be where you go for difficult PvE content.

Agree, and the rewards for doing those dungeons should be increased significantly to encourage people to do them. There has to be a reason to go other than just to see the content.

Also - some of the rewards for the major quests like Cadwell's Silver and Gold really should reward at least an epic or legendary weapon. Similar to the quest that gives you an epic weapon for the fighters guild and lets you choose what type. It has to be something you can use, at least for a little while.

Cadwell's silver is way more involved than the fighters guild quest and takes twenty times as much time and rewards a crappy blue necklace. That fighter's guild weapon was the only quest reward I ever got that I had a use for, and used it for several levels and was happy with it. Wish there was more of that...

Orchish

My problem was not the difficulty, but how tedious and boring levelling through vet zones was. 5x the effort of 1-50 content for very little reward at all. I wouldn't mind putting in that much effort if the rewards reflected the time spent levelling there. There was just nothing to get excited about, nothing to look forward to.

Mortosk

Catches_the_Sun wrote: »

I'm not one bit happy about these changes. You've gotta be kidding me. I guess the WoW crowd has won another round (big surprise, their numbers will always exceed everybody else). If I wanted a Singleplayer game, Skyrim is far superior to ESO in every way.

Leveling content shouldn't be so difficult. There's plenty of challenging group dungeon encounters you can take part it if you choose. This is the only MMO I've ever played where you get your arse kicked constantly just trying to reach the level cap. And, it's also the longest grind I've ever experienced getting to level cap in any game since Everquest.

Vahrokh

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Denaia wrote: »

Thanks for the changes. I just wonder one thing

How hard will this nerfing be? I did not enjoy the difficulty of 1-50 much as it was way too easy for my liking, while vr 1-12 could certainly be a bit easier. But I wonder, will it be the same difficulty as 1-50 or will it be a middleground of what's its now? As I wonder if I will enjoy ploughing through vr 1-12 if it's extremely easy and I fall asleep playing.

Level 50+ and 50++ content will still be more difficult than normal level 50 content, but easier to solo than it is now. So, yes, a middle ground.

Hello,

could you please put in an option to keep current difficulty for who felt fine with the current system? I'd hate to lose the "challenge feeling" I am having now. Level 1-50 was almost AFK play (including the sad Molag-Bal wussy fight).

Mortosk

psychoman88ub17_ESO wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

I honestly think removing group elements from an MMO is never a good idea in general, especially if you replace that group element in the open world with pointless dungeon grinding like Blizzard did and obviously ZO wants to do as well.

Sad news, again a vocal minority had a huge impact on an MMO.

You are mistaken if you think it was a vocal minority who was clamoring for these changes. It has been much more like a vocal majority, probably upwards of 75% of the players have requested the Veteran content's difficulty be toned down. The hardcore players who enjoyed the current Veteran content or wanted it to be even more difficult are the quiet minority here.

In fact, they are so quiet that requests for groups or help with quests in the upper VR zones are never answered. I can spend hours in the VR8-10 zones and never see another player. Where are all of these people who enjoy the Veteran content and why aren't they helping people? You simply cannot have (practically required) group content in a game when there are no players to group with, either due to low populations or players who refuse to help others. For the good of the game, ZOS had to act and I am glad they have. We all owe them a big thank you.

Forum whiners are a vocal minority. The majority is having fun playing.

Yes. Forum whiners are the only ones who think this way.

It explains why all the VR zones are brimming with so many people.

Vahrokh

Daddybigtime wrote: »

Well a little dissapointed. I just made level 45 and wanted to see if Vet content was really as hard as people were saying. (In my experience what I consider hard and what most consider hard is vastly different.) But I also know we must cater to a more casual crowd. I hope that we can still have a few choice vet dungeons that can offer a near impossible experience in difficulty. There is nothing like beating something impossible and rubbing it in the face of the weak!

It was (is for now) not *that* hard. Had some overtuned details (like the heavy armor ignore or those "survive X waves of nasty groups) but the rest was just fine.

LonePirate

psychoman88ub17_ESO wrote: »

Forum whiners are a vocal minority. The majority is having fun playing.

And where exactly is this majority playing? They are definitely not in the Veteran zones. I spent an hour late this afternoon in VR9 Malabal Tor asking in zone chat to help take down a world boss. Not a single person responded or showed up to help in that entire hour. When players won't help other players complete group content or when there are no other players around to help because the zone is dead, then there is a serious problem with the game. If these changes can bring some life into the dead VR zones, then we should all welcome them with open arms.

grizzbi

Mortosk wrote: »

Catches_the_Sun wrote: »

I'm not one bit happy about these changes. You've gotta be kidding me. I guess the WoW crowd has won another round (big surprise, their numbers will always exceed everybody else). If I wanted a Singleplayer game, Skyrim is far superior to ESO in every way.

Leveling content shouldn't be so difficult. There's plenty of challenging group dungeon encounters you can take part it if you choose. This is the only MMO I've ever played where you get your arse kicked constantly just trying to reach the level cap. And, it's also the longest grind I've ever experienced getting to level cap in any game since Everquest.

You call it "leveling content" because your main goal is probably to get to the max level. Many people just enjoy it as "content". I've spent some time in dungeons and - for me - it was boring. I don't like zergs or raids or trials... Hiding in the crowd and spamming AOE abilities has never been fun for me. What I like is trying to kill a world boss with one or two guys, healing them or tanking. Or explore the map with my stamina build..That's epic..You should keep in mind that we are all different.

Mortosk

LonePirate wrote: »

psychoman88ub17_ESO wrote: »

Forum whiners are a vocal minority. The majority is having fun playing.

And where exactly is this majority playing? They are definitely not in the Veteran zones. I spent an hour late this afternoon in VR9 Malabal Tor asking in zone chat to help take down a world boss. Not a single person responded or showed up to help in that entire hour. When players won't help other players complete group content or when there are no other players around to help because the zone is dead, then there is a serious problem with the game. If these changes can bring some life into the dead VR zones, then we should all welcome them with open arms.

And it stands to reason that if the content was designed to be completed by grouping as Jessica pointed out and there's no one in the veteran zones to group with now, the least they could do would be to make the content more easily solo-able.

Lyall84

psychoman88ub17_ESO wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

I honestly think removing group elements from an MMO is never a good idea in general, especially if you replace that group element in the open world with pointless dungeon grinding like Blizzard did and obviously ZO wants to do as well.

Sad news, again a vocal minority had a huge impact on an MMO.

You are mistaken if you think it was a vocal minority who was clamoring for these changes. It has been much more like a vocal majority, probably upwards of 75% of the players have requested the Veteran content's difficulty be toned down. The hardcore players who enjoyed the current Veteran content or wanted it to be even more difficult are the quiet minority here.

In fact, they are so quiet that requests for groups or help with quests in the upper VR zones are never answered. I can spend hours in the VR8-10 zones and never see another player. Where are all of these people who enjoy the Veteran content and why aren't they helping people? You simply cannot have (practically required) group content in a game when there are no players to group with, either due to low populations or players who refuse to help others. For the good of the game, ZOS had to act and I am glad they have. We all owe them a big thank you.

Forum whiners are a vocal minority. The majority is having fun playing.

Or just taking their money elsewhere and putting too hard on the why are you unsubscribing block. All of the people that are here on the forums seem to forget they are the minority just by being on the forums. I would wager that as much as 60% of the player base does not look at the forums and if they decided to leave the game they will do so quietly. 20% come here to get information and ask legitimate questions/answer questions/give constructive feed back. The last 20% will either complain about whatever or troll to get a rise out of the complainers.

Just human nature, most people just avoid the potential conflict and move on to something more fun. Trying to make the claim that the majority is too busy enjoying the game in all of its difficulty is too much of an assumption. I will agree that the majority is too busy to bother with the forums. Basic rule about human nature is that a dissatisfied customer is over 10 times more likely to complain about something they don't like vs a satisfied customer.

While you can make the argument that means while everyone else that was complaining about how hard it was before is mucking up the numbers. You also have to look at this current backlash of proposed changes...the number of supporters for the change vs haters of the change is about equal. So for every one supporter you see on this thread, on average there is 9 more that didnt say anything.

Bottom line, zenimax looked at the threads, did whatever marketing analysis they needed, and decided that the content was too hard and the majority of their subscribers agreed that it was too hard.

grizzbi

Lyall84 wrote: »

psychoman88ub17_ESO wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

I honestly think removing group elements from an MMO is never a good idea in general, especially if you replace that group element in the open world with pointless dungeon grinding like Blizzard did and obviously ZO wants to do as well.

Sad news, again a vocal minority had a huge impact on an MMO.

You are mistaken if you think it was a vocal minority who was clamoring for these changes. It has been much more like a vocal majority, probably upwards of 75% of the players have requested the Veteran content's difficulty be toned down. The hardcore players who enjoyed the current Veteran content or wanted it to be even more difficult are the quiet minority here.

In fact, they are so quiet that requests for groups or help with quests in the upper VR zones are never answered. I can spend hours in the VR8-10 zones and never see another player. Where are all of these people who enjoy the Veteran content and why aren't they helping people? You simply cannot have (practically required) group content in a game when there are no players to group with, either due to low populations or players who refuse to help others. For the good of the game, ZOS had to act and I am glad they have. We all owe them a big thank you.

Forum whiners are a vocal minority. The majority is having fun playing.

Or just taking their money elsewhere and putting too hard on the why are you unsubscribing block. All of the people that are here on the forums seem to forget they are the minority just by being on the forums. I would wager that as much as 60% of the player base does not look at the forums and if they decided to leave the game they will do so quietly. 20% come here to get information and ask legitimate questions/answer questions/give constructive feed back. The last 20% will either complain about whatever or troll to get a rise out of the complainers.

Just human nature, most people just avoid the potential conflict and move on to something more fun. Trying to make the claim that the majority is too busy enjoying the game in all of its difficulty is too much of an assumption. I will agree that the majority is too busy to bother with the forums. Basic rule about human nature is that a dissatisfied customer is over 10 times more likely to complain about something they don't like vs a satisfied customer.

While you can make the argument that means while everyone else that was complaining about how hard it was before is mucking up the numbers. You also have to look at this current backlash of proposed changes...the number of supporters for the change vs haters of the change is about equal. So for every one supporter you see on this thread, on average there is 9 more that didnt say anything.

Bottom line, zenimax looked at the threads, did whatever marketing analysis they needed, and decided that the content was too hard and the majority of their subscribers agreed that it was too hard.

When Henri Ford asked people about their needs, they answered: "faster horses"...

Zenimax need to hear the people but they should have kept their vision.

Keep the difficulty but make it more rewarding (items, character customization, crafts mats, etc..) => more people would be interested.

And now they would group together if they feel the need to. And for those who don't want to group at all, give them the possibility to hire mercenaries npcs with a cost per hour..