Veteran System Changes Preview

Mujuro

Shunravi wrote: »

Well, this may make me less proud of my 'tamriel hero' achievement, and as much as i like the difficulty, i suppose this is good for those who don't. honestly i have mixed feelings about this. I want to see more people in the vet zones, to be sure, but dumbing stuff down does not make me feel too good about it. idk.. the challenge was like a breath of fresh air compared to how easy the content was getting. i finally had to actually care about what i was doing vs just pressing a few buttons to see what happens.
i honestly wish there was more i could say... maybe make the sabotage option people are asking for, then return cadwell's to its current state? or have a special something for those of us who have done it at this difficulty? idk, something.

After Monday, that title will mean little. I wish ZOS would find some suitable way to reward those of us who got through all of this the "hard way", rather than just doing the, "yes, we screwed you very much, have a nice day".

BrassRazoo

So what happens when they complete 50+ and 50++ ?
Do you make Craglorn easier? Or the next content addition?

I'm all for keeping people interested to stay involved but just making things easier does not really help these people or prepare them for future encounters, unless all these encounters will be easy as well.

RazielSR

Mujuro wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Well, this may make me less proud of my 'tamriel hero' achievement, and as much as i like the difficulty, i suppose this is good for those who don't. honestly i have mixed feelings about this. I want to see more people in the vet zones, to be sure, but dumbing stuff down does not make me feel too good about it. idk.. the challenge was like a breath of fresh air compared to how easy the content was getting. i finally had to actually care about what i was doing vs just pressing a few buttons to see what happens.
i honestly wish there was more i could say... maybe make the sabotage option people are asking for, then return cadwell's to its current state? or have a special something for those of us who have done it at this difficulty? idk, something.

After Monday, that title will mean little. I wish ZOS would find some suitable way to reward those of us who got through all of this the "hard way", rather than just doing the, "yes, we screwed you very much, have a nice day".

Why don't you try to play with a broken hand, and with just one eye? Maybe it would be more difficult...

I mean...................

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

to all your people excited for it to be easier, cant wait to meet you in pvp

Mujuro

RazielSR wrote: »

Why don't you try to play with a broken hand, and with just one eye? Maybe it would be more difficult...

I mean...................

I managed to get to VR12 doing quests and without grinding, and managed to get the Tamriel Hero title a few days ago. Don't get me wrong, I did hit some trouble spots, particularly with healing bosses, the 15k+ HP VR9/10 storm atronachs, etc. These need to be fixed, as I don't know a single person who had been able to solo these portions.

Stated differently, I can count the number of quest fights I couldn't solo as a DW/bow NB on one hand. Regardless, I understand why ZOS now chooses to make VR levels "easier" ... there are simply far more people finding the content too difficult vs. not. All I'm asking is that players who went through the "hard stuff" -- through many deaths, repairs, soul gems, etc. -- to be acknowledged for paving the way for everyone else's "benefit". Period. Paragraph.

As an aside, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom, @ZOS_GinaBruno ... have you considered making Cyrodiil VR12?

Phinix1

I have to say, I am somewhat disappointed by this decision. I really wish ZOS would erect the spine of standing up to the whiners already, but it seems with this company whenever the vocal minority complains they get whatever they want even if it ruins the game for the rest of us.

I will reserve final judgement however until I see how easy they actually make it...

I have felt all along that veteran zones were very well balanced even for solo play. 1-50 was actually boringly easy. I know that the majority of the player base was complaining about it being too hard though, so I understand in a way why ZOS felt the need to abandon their vision and concede defeat to the calls for a difficulty nerf, but still, a bit disappointing.

I honestly feel that part of the blame lies with the players. I think there is some overly stubborn refusal to try new skills and abilities to get through content, and people abuse the "play how you want" cliche to assume the should be able to beat things with fishsticks and win if they want to.

I really hope this isn't the beginning of the dumbing down of Elder Scrolls to WoW faceroll status, but I guess the vocal complaints always get what they want, so it was probably inevitable.

I have already been facerolling content with some minimal CC and actually using the mechanics we are given, and my fear is this will not only abandon the vision of veteran content as end game but also completely trivialize the whole purpose of block and rolldodge mechanics.

Skill? "Ain't no one got time for that!"

I erect the spine of my bruising sense of betrayal.

BossPurple

I'm really not a fan of what these changes could bring. The difficulty is excellent. It forces you to think, to react properly, and to actually learn to play your character. It makes you need to actually THINK about how you gear your character, what skills you use in combos, etc. I don't think it's too hard by any means. Death is a part of the harder content. It feels as though people want to be able to play right through to the end without dying once. And while the classes are still being balanced, how can you get an accurate picture of how difficult the content is? If someone's class is unbalanced, or they have a bad skill combination, of COURSE it's going to seem hard. But that's where the learning experience is. I think it would have been more beneficial to do something like raising the soft caps or something, as opposed to weakening the mobs. I'm really hoping that there's still a significant challenge for people like me that like to strategize, and don't just throw whatever on my bar and expect to be able to walk through the content.

Arsenic_Touch

And so the carebear revolution begins.

The rewards in general are a problem, 1-50 not just in the veteran zones. It's been a big complaint since forever, you forgot to add the carrot and keep dangling an empty line in front of people.

Part of the issue with veteran content is that you can use stamina based builds 1-50 and succeed without much issue but the moment you take those builds into the veteran zones, you find out how badly stamina skills are balanced.

It's kind of mind boggling that you're going to nerf the difficulty of veteran content before addressing these balance issues.

isengrimb16_ESO

Mujuro wrote: »

RazielSR wrote: »

Why don't you try to play with a broken hand, and with just one eye? Maybe it would be more difficult...

I mean...................

I managed to get to VR12 doing quests and without grinding, and managed to get the Tamriel Hero title a few days ago. Don't get me wrong, I did hit some trouble spots, particularly with healing bosses, the 15k+ HP VR9/10 storm atronachs, etc. These need to be fixed, as I don't know a single person who had been able to solo these portions.

Stated differently, I can count the number of quest fights I couldn't solo as a DW/bow NB on one hand. Regardless, I understand why ZOS now chooses to make VR levels "easier" ... there are simply far more people finding the content too difficult vs. not. All I'm asking is that players who went through the "hard stuff" -- through many deaths, repairs, soul gems, etc. -- to be acknowledged for paving the way for everyone else's "benefit". Period. Paragraph.

As an aside, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom, @ZOS_GinaBruno ... have you considered making Cyrodiil VR12?

You know, I do kind of feel sorry for folks who did things the hard way before an inevitable nerf; I imagine there's still some folks who are butthurt over the idea of not needing a druid to fight Anzu any more. I certainly wouldn't be fussed if everyone who got to V12 the hard way earned a nice shiny IWIN button to float over their heads or something, but otherwise, I really wouldn't know what to do for you.

psychoman88ub17_ESO

Not sure what is so hard about it, i solo it just find and love it being challenging.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]

LonePirate

irre_greg wrote: »

I don't like it when all forward movement stops while I deal with some stupid monster that is OP for me. Options of being able to sneak around or hire an NPC mercenary for the next 20 minutes to tank for you would be nice.

The NPC mercenary option would have been wonderful if they could have implemented it. The hardcore players would still have their ridiculously difficult content while everyone else would have an option available to them to help ease the pain and burden of the Veteran zones.

Hopefully whatever changes are implemented will still strike a reasonable balance that satisfies the regular crowd without significantly disappointing the hardcore crowd. The game needs to please both groups to keep a vibrant and thriving community - something sorely lacking right now in the Veteran zones, especially in the VR8-10 zones.

SootyTX

Daddybigtime wrote: »

Well a little dissapointed. I just made level 45 and wanted to see if Vet content was really as hard as people were saying. (In my experience what I consider hard and what most consider hard is vastly different.) But I also know we must cater to a more casual crowd. I hope that we can still have a few choice vet dungeons that can offer a near impossible experience in difficulty. There is nothing like beating something impossible and rubbing it in the face of the weak!

I agree with what you are saying as a principal, but as a current VR player what folks have been saying isn't an exaggeration. I'm not the greatest player in the world but, from watching a lot of video and streams, I'd say I'm well above average.

The problem with VR was never the bosses, so I hope those get left more or less intact. It was the trash mobs that had as much HP as a delve boss, if not more, and did rapid fir white damage that killed (especially melee) players in a few seconds unless they perma-blocked. Skeletons that threw daggers that did 1500 damage in one hit. And that all that armour you were wearing had almost zero effect - which was why most players went the light armour + staff route.

Many builds were untenable. or at the very least extremely not fun for the majority of players.

Make the world bosses tough. Make (keep) anchors tough. Public dungeons felt about right, needed 2 or 3 to do those. Solo delves again felt about right - tough but soloable (except that one full of trolls /shudder).

I think the important thing here is that this will make the game far far more accessible to many players, which can only be a good thing in the long run.

SootyTX

Lord_Draevan wrote: »

BrassRazoo wrote: »

Easier with more XP. What a shame.

I definitely won't be grouping with these "new" Vets anytime soon.

Can the "original" Vets get some sort of Title?

Actually XP gain is going down for the Vet Zones, not up.

"vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote:
Are there any plans to change the amount of veteran experience needed to level? This really needs to come down quite a bit if the veterans are going to be as easy a 1-50. Talk about boredom.

ZOS_JessicaFolson Wrote:
We do have some changes planned to address that, yes. We'll be going into more detail about them in the July Road Ahead letter, and the QuakeCon panel."

Unless I misread that... I guess we'll see for sure then the "Road Ahead" comes out.

You misread. The question was 'will you bring down the amount of experience needed to level' (bringing the 2 parts together). The answer certainly indicates that they will be improving that side and making leveling a bit faster. More to see at QuakeCon obviously.

jquestb16_ESO2

Awesome!! I had no problem with the difficulty although still only V4 the issue I had was how looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong it takes to go up one level. Glad this is being addressed it will encourage people to play multiple characters up to V12 as it stands no one will want to repeat those 12 levels again after doing it once

AngryWolf

As someone as feared hitting veteran ranks as the game sounds like it was going to change to much to be enjoyable, this is welcome news! I'm not dreading hit 50 now

Loco_Mofo

Difficulty wasn't thing turning me off VR content, I actually liked the challenge.

This is the wrong change in my opinion.

frogprincess_q4

I'm finding Veteran loot to be far more of a problem than difficulty. I haven't looted a single thing that excited me since I hit VR last week. As a provisioner there is primarily non-VR food mats in the barrels (useless). I have only found a couple of Blue recipes that I already knew (also useless) and I have been reduced to purchasing the VR racial motifs.

Basically, I have spent hours scouring the entire zone (not just logging in and out in the same area) for a few racial stones and a handful of mudcrab meat.

ShedsHisTail

Where do you people even come from? Are you equipped with discontent sensors or something?

All I've ever seen regarding Vet Levels is people talking about how hard it is or people talking about how it isn't so bad. Never seen anyone go, "You know, I really dig it being super tough and double-tedious."

Then a Dev mentions that their going to make it marginally less difficult and you people just swarm all over it with *** like, "Oh, Eldernerf Online amirite, lolz. Gimmie an achievement for doing the hard way. I need validation or I'm cancelling my sub!"

badmojo

For a person like me who is absolutely loving the veteran difficulty, and your original vision, I feel like I'm getting screwed out of a game here. The game I've fallen in love with is now slipping away and turning into something else.

Like what the hell ZOS? People already have the option to play all three alliances at 1-50 difficulty, they can just create an alt in that alliance and play it. Why does the VR1-12 have to be served to people on a silver platter? Just give them an easy mode craglorn or something to grind through, they don't even want to play the quests, they just want the ranks. Nerfing VR content is so inconsiderate to the people who actually want to quest and enjoy the difficult content. You know, the people who bought into this game for your original vision.

I guess it just takes a lot of complaining to get the game changed however you want. It's nice that you want to listen to the community, but when more than half say it's fine, you're not listening.

grizzbi

SAD DAY.

No challenge = NO FUN.

lvl 1-50 was way too easy to make it truly interesting. VR was awesome.

At least I had to use my brain to adapt. The slow pace introduced me to the game content: lore, quests, exploring, taking my time, encountering difficulties, making money to respec one more time...It was a brand new world.

In VR, there aren't any game changing or interesting items to get with the quests, no titles to get, no traits, little to no side activities, nothing else than respec to spend money on and no character customization past lvl 50. NOTHING. Just the pleasure to play in a gorgeous, vibrant and dangerous world.

And you remove the interesting part: the challenge...

I don't want to see the happy crowd face rolling this lovely content spamming the stupid AOE. I love this world too much to see it in that terrible state.

More abilities? More crafting options? More activities? More character development? More build diversity? More immersion? More challenge? More goals?

Hmhmh...no: just a highway to trials and the AOE zerg.

sad day.

Jade_Knightblazerb14_ESO

If 50+ and 50++ end up even remotely close to 1-50.... I will be very dishearten.

The bore and the out leveling was insane 1-50. In cold harbor now and can barely play a little bit of the day due to the face roll. Sadly this out leveling crap started in Grahtwood.

I am looking forward to Vet zone to get out of this mind numbing mess, please for the love of the eight don't make it face roll.

LonePirate

Audigy wrote: »

I honestly think removing group elements from an MMO is never a good idea in general, especially if you replace that group element in the open world with pointless dungeon grinding like Blizzard did and obviously ZO wants to do as well.

Sad news, again a vocal minority had a huge impact on an MMO.

You are mistaken if you think it was a vocal minority who was clamoring for these changes. It has been much more like a vocal majority, probably upwards of 75% of the players have requested the Veteran content's difficulty be toned down. The hardcore players who enjoyed the current Veteran content or wanted it to be even more difficult are the quiet minority here.

In fact, they are so quiet that requests for groups or help with quests in the upper VR zones are never answered. I can spend hours in the VR8-10 zones and never see another player. Where are all of these people who enjoy the Veteran content and why aren't they helping people? You simply cannot have (practically required) group content in a game when there are no players to group with, either due to low populations or players who refuse to help others. For the good of the game, ZOS had to act and I am glad they have. We all owe them a big thank you.

Ansumanaub17_ESO

I suppose I might be in the minority, but I'm disappointed to hear that the difficulty will be lowered. I've been playing through with a second character and the 1-50 content feels very brain-dead. I've been rushing through it with a friend, assuring them that the "real" game starts at the veteran levels.

The biggest struggle we've currently had is hamstringing ourselves enough to stay interested in the journey.

If this helps the community overall, then fine. But, I'm reminded of SWTOR during beta...when the community complained that the leveling/difficulty was too high. Adjustments were made, and when the game went live people skipped through large swatches of content/whole planets and then complained about there being not enough content and no solid endgame when they hit max level in a few days/weeks.

Players sometimes just want to keep chasing the high of the next "ding," without considering the big picture. It's the responsibility of the game designer to consider what the community has to say, but to act on what's in the overall interest of the game.

I just hope this change means we'll see more veteran dungeons and difficult content added to the game soon, because right now there's a serious threat of boredom setting in.

Think about the last enjoyable/memorable gaming experience you had. Was it easy or challenging?

Lets try not to make this another forgettable MMO....

SootyTX

Mujuro wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Well, this may make me less proud of my 'tamriel hero' achievement, and as much as i like the difficulty, i suppose this is good for those who don't. honestly i have mixed feelings about this. I want to see more people in the vet zones, to be sure, but dumbing stuff down does not make me feel too good about it. idk.. the challenge was like a breath of fresh air compared to how easy the content was getting. i finally had to actually care about what i was doing vs just pressing a few buttons to see what happens.
i honestly wish there was more i could say... maybe make the sabotage option people are asking for, then return cadwell's to its current state? or have a special something for those of us who have done it at this difficulty? idk, something.

After Monday, that title will mean little. I wish ZOS would find some suitable way to reward those of us who got through all of this the "hard way", rather than just doing the, "yes, we screwed you very much, have a nice day".

Define 'hard-way'? Pre-1.1.2 wasn't anything like as difficult as it is now. Wearing a dress and using a stick isn't even remotely as difficult as a medium or heavy armour stamina based melee build.

Why is your self-worth dependent on other people seeing you have a certain title, that even if it existed, is still going to be meaningless? Why is allowing other players to enjoy the game such a personal affront to you?

Xsorus

I think ESO should take more of a page out of SWTOR on this, You've done it with some of the public dungeons, but they're not remotely hard, But in SWTOR you had specific area's that were Heroic 2 and 4 Mans, Now you didn't have to do this content, But they rewarded you for completing them with massive XP and usually a nice piece of Gear.

I also think you could of solved a lot of the VR problems by increasing the XP you got from the PVE out in Cyrodiil...You risk a lot by going out there, and by massively increasing the XP there you would of fixed some of the problems with VR ranks feeling slow.

Difficulty wise, VR ranks aren't hard...as long as you're using Light Armor and such, and usually 1 handed/shield or staff.

Trying to do it with Two hander/Bow/Duel Wield with Medium or Heavy though..makes it far harder then it should be.

ShedsHisTail

Yeah, I'm working my way through as a Medium Armor, DW/DW Nightblade, Stamina build.

Where's my medal, Obama!?

Domander

Can you make some content be more challenging (as it is now, or more) and having greater rewards?

Lyall84

Audigy wrote: »

phreatophile wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

I think ZO is walking a very dangerous path now with the changes to the VR difficulty.
[snip]
Sad news, again a vocal minority had a huge impact on an MMO.

Rather than the ever vocal "learn to play" minority, which based on what i quoted, I assume you are a part of; I think it was more likely a vast silent majority: the players one would expect to see in VR zones but simply aren't there that motivated this change. Simple triage...stop the bleeding.

You can drop your insults towards me as much as you want, it wont change the fact that I am right.

Its not about learn to play, its about content that we now lose because of people that want to rush to VR 12. You need to realize that there is nothing past VR 12 and nothing has been announced yet to change that.

The reason why people are not at VR zones is simply put their time. I don't know what type of life you have, but most people have a job, girlfriend, boyfriend or a whole family. These people simply put are not yet at the VR zones or have just started.

By dumping down the VR content the long levity of the game will be lowered as there is nothing past VR 12. The Story ends there and all you have is a boring item grind in trials and dungeons.

ZO is walking a very dangerous path with the removal of VR content and the danger is huge that they remove any type of solo player or small group content in future just like Blizzard did.

I don't know about you, but I enjoy playing with a friend or two. I enjoy being a healer or tank in a group while I quest. All this will be gone when content is dumped down so much that you can roll with your butt over the keyboard and hit the "I win teddy".

Do you honestly think that this is what an ES player wants? An item hunt in a never ending rotation of dungeons and trials while every story element is a walk in the park until its fully removed from the game?

I am shocked how less people learned from WOW. If you want to see why the change is bad, WOW is the perfect example for it.

You are right about one thing, most people have a job and family and life outside the game. Here is where you are wrong, most people do not want to pay 15 a month to increase their blood pressure and get angry/frustrated because they died every 3rd pull trying to level. They are not die hard fans. They are not going to go to the forums and complain. They are going to do what most people do. They take the path of last resistance, stop playing, stop paying and spend their money elsewhere.

Zenimax is a business, that is not what they want. They want as many people to stay as possible. If they lose one hard core "I like the way this sucks" person to get two casual, I play an hour or two a night but still pay, players to stay...they will make that trade every minute of every day.

Don't me wrong, I put my face to the cheese grater that is VR zones and been VR12 for a month. Do I think the time it took to get there unreasonable? No. Do I think that the amount of damage I did to NPCs and mobs was unreasonable? No. Do I think the artificial difficulty of the mobs hitting like a truck and hanving so much penetration that it did not matter what armor you wore, you died in two or three hits if you did not dodge or heal was unreasonable? Absolutely, it is insane.

Make it difficult to go through VR content I agree with, but make that difficulty by making prlonged fights, to force people to start using the mechanics of battle to win. Be it interrupt, block, dodge, etc. I would love to see the NPC/Mob health increased, basic attack damage lowered to reasonable amounts, leave their power attack damage the same mac truck level it is, and damage done to knocked down or incapacitated NPC/mobs to be doubled. Force people to learn the "exploit" mechanics the battle hints start teaching you at level one. Do not make the basic damage of everything so high that you have to play an exact play style to perfection in order to get past the content without grouping or dieing all the time.

Yes, there needs to be a balance between stroll through the park and cheese grater. But trying to claim the "special elite" are the majority and that it is the minority that is complaining is a nieve claim. Clearly ZeniMax has done their accounting and realized that they are loosing more customers because of the difficulty than they are retaining. They can see information you can't. They wont release this but I can guarantee that some bean counter looked at the number of cancelled subscriptions and saw that the highest level of characters averaged into the mid to low VR ranks and put one and one together.

You dont want to be "grouped with baddies"? Petition for a "renown" system so to speak. What I mean by that is after grouping an instance dungeon or trial, or grouping for anything. Give each player a renown notice and have them give each player they grouped with a 1 to 5 star rating and maybe a hidden note. Each player can only ever rate a person once, so if they group again they can change their number they assigned to them. Have it so you can read the note that you put about that person, but only visible to you when you look at their renown page. Then when other people invite them to group or they ask for an invite, other people could look and see what their average star rating is. That way the "good" and the "bad" can be sorted by their actual performance. Not some mythical better skill from leveling from supposedly harder content.

Shagreth

To be honest, I liked the challenge and never had any big issues with the veteran content, then again - I tend to sit down, theorycraft, and really try to think of what abilities I want to take in order to make my build more powerful etc. not everyone plays like this, most people want to just hop in and have fun with their favorite abilities, leaving an endless trail of bodies behind, feeling powerful.

I can understand that, but I just don't think that this is what the game needs. Anyway, here's hoping that this is for the best, I guess time will tell.

Lyall84

Mujuro wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Well, this may make me less proud of my 'tamriel hero' achievement, and as much as i like the difficulty, i suppose this is good for those who don't. honestly i have mixed feelings about this. I want to see more people in the vet zones, to be sure, but dumbing stuff down does not make me feel too good about it. idk.. the challenge was like a breath of fresh air compared to how easy the content was getting. i finally had to actually care about what i was doing vs just pressing a few buttons to see what happens.
i honestly wish there was more i could say... maybe make the sabotage option people are asking for, then return cadwell's to its current state? or have a special something for those of us who have done it at this difficulty? idk, something.

After Monday, that title will mean little. I wish ZOS would find some suitable way to reward those of us who got through all of this the "hard way", rather than just doing the, "yes, we screwed you very much, have a nice day".

Ever step into VR spindle clutch or Craiglorn prior to VR10? Just curious.