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Shadowy Disguise

Prince_Edward
Prince_Edward
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I'm sure all NB's will agree that this is one of our signature skills. In more cases than not, this is how we play. Especially in PVE. You go in hidden or you Ambush, execute the target, then vanish. But there are a few things wrong with this skill, that I'm sure you all have noticed as well.


Your invisibility cloak has a hole

Sometimes, you'll notice how targets ignore your shadowform invisibility and will still attack you. Or they stand around not attacking, but will follow your movements as if they can see you, and will hit you the moment you become visible again.

Oh, there you are...

You're visible again as soon as you materialize. Regardless of your orientation to the targets line of sight.

They only take it from behind...

Your damage from the front, while stealthed, doesn't seem to be as much as hitting the target with the same attack while stealthed from their rear.

I would suggest just a few things, and I have submitted a ticket for this already.

1. Invisible means invisible. I shouldn't get hit by anything other than a dot or aoe, and it shouldn't make me break stealth. I only get it for 2.5 seconds anyway...

2. I shouldn't be getting hit the moment the materialization animations starts. When I get knocked to the ground before the shadows around me dissipate, I think that's a little much...

3. Activating the ability should make you auto-crouch, and be able to maintain a hidden status as long as you're not in the targets line of sight and within their detection range.

4. Damage to target shouldn't matter based on orientation while stealthed. You're invisible...



Your thoughts or suggestions?
Edited by Prince_Edward on June 26, 2014 5:32PM
  • hasselhoffman
    hasselhoffman
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    ZoS has been aware of the NB stealth issue for months and still has not fixed it.
  • Samadhi
    Samadhi
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    ...

    1. Invisible means invisible. I shouldn't get hit by anything other than a dot or aoe, and it shouldn't make me break stealth. I only get it for 2.5 seconds anyway...

    ...

    Invisible means cannot be seen. AoEs can still hit something they can't see if the invisible target is still in the Area. Hits should apply, but shouldn't break invisibility. There has been issues with them doing so, and it should be remedied.

    DoTs are supposed to be remedied by the Dark Cloak morph, but it is busted. They should not pull us out of cloak, but people have this issue.

    I never get hit with anything but these two while invisible.
    ...
    2. I shouldn't be getting hit the moment the materialization animations starts. When I get knocked to the ground before the shadows around me dissipate, I think that's a little much...
    ...

    This seems to be a PvE issue, so I can't comment on it.
    ...
    3. Activating the ability should make you auto-crouch, and be able to maintain a hidden status as long as you're not in the targets line of sight and within their detection range.
    ...

    This would be a nerf and make invisibility borderline useless.
    The largest benefit of invisibility is being able to move at regular speed while stealthed. Being forced into crouched moving speed would be terrible.
    Simply use Shadowy Disguise then press Crouch, if you wish to obtain this effect.

    I'd like to be able to dodge roll or sprint while remaining invisible though. Currently both break the effect.
    ...
    4. Damage to target shouldn't matter based on orientation while stealthed. You're invisible...
    ...

    I feel this system makes positioning and timing feel more vital and rewarding. Keep this as is.


    Edited by Samadhi on June 26, 2014 5:56PM
    "If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
    Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
  • Prince_Edward
    Prince_Edward
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    I shouldn't get hit by anything other than a dot or aoe, and it shouldn't make me break stealth.

    I'm definitely for the dots and aoe. I didn't mean to make that unclear, if I did.

    Has any one noticed, while using Ambush or Lotus, that you'll get hit just before the stun effect on target? As if they can see it coming even though you were hidden at max range?
    Edited by Prince_Edward on June 26, 2014 6:06PM
  • cameo
    cameo
    Has any one noticed, while using Ambush or Lotus, that you'll get hit just before the stun effect on target? As if they can see it coming even though you were hidden at max range?

    That's cause of the way its coded, basically you teleport, then attack, then apply stun. Since the NPCs don't have lag like we do, the millisecond between the attack and the stun they get a hit off. Damn NPC hackers.
  • yelloweyedemon
    yelloweyedemon
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    There are about 50 of these thrreads around, yet still no fix for NB's invisibility skill... It's pretty much pointless to use it while in-combat on PvP since it will break as soon as you used it from either random AoE, Magelight, player dots, enemy dots, or simple staff/bow attacks ...

    Not to mention that Dark Cloak does NOT remove dots... we would have it fixed in this patch yes? ...
  • davidetombab16_ESO
    davidetombab16_ESO
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    no they fixed nothing, zenimax studios are like politicians, good at talking but a facts are useless
  • leovuoeb17_ESO
    There are about 50 of these thrreads around, yet still no fix for NB's invisibility skill... It's pretty much pointless to use it while in-combat on PvP since it will break as soon as you used it from either random AoE, Magelight, player dots, enemy dots, or simple staff/bow attacks ...

    Not to mention that Dark Cloak does NOT remove dots... we would have it fixed in this patch yes? ...

    Dark Cloak does remove DoTs. What DoTs are you referring to? I've yet to see a DoT my cloak did not remove.

    Mage Light / Detection Potion makes you see invisble players. If you manage to get outside the detection range, you will remain invisible.

    And yes, of course you will be taken out of stealth if you get AoE. It's by design, like it or not.

    Yes, there are still some issues left to be fixes, like Cripple taking you out of stealth (fix is in the works) and how NPC's are behaving to stealth.

    All tough I'm curious about the problems people seems to have in PvP, cause I don't have them? Is it that they thought it / wished it worked like "I would like to press this skill and remain invisble for the duration or until I attack ,no matter what"?

    Someone feel free to enlighten me more! :)

  • Guppet
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    I think the skill needs a complete re-work. The problem is caused by the fact ZOS wanted to avoid cooldowns. As a result it's now able to be used as a rotational ability.

    It should never have been able to be used as that. ZOS have set a predcedant with bolt escape to make abilities non spamable.

    What I would do is have it give you 10 seconds of complete invisability, during which you can go into normal stealth if you wish. You could then totally flee if you wish or you could get another stealth opener used.

    I would double its cost if used again within 30 seconds, so no one can spam it.

    If used in stealth, you would have super stealth for ten seconds, letting you sneak past just about anything.

    It would give the class the really unique stealth ability it's calling out for.
  • GwaynLoki
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    Dark Cloak does remove DoTs. What DoTs are you referring to? I've yet to see a DoT my cloak did not remove.

    General: Currently, a Nightblade’s own residual outgoing damage-over-time ticks break his or her invisibility. This is not intended, and will be fixed in a future patch.

    Dark Cloak (Shadow Cloak morph): Dark Cloak is not currently removing damage-over-time (DoT) debuffs as it should be. We’re currently investigating this issue to determine which DoTs are not being removed by Dark Cloak.

    From here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/100627/nightblade-update/p1
    And yes, of course you will be taken out of stealth if you get AoE. It's by design, like it or not.

    Are we talking about stealth or invisibility here? I would really like to know what you mean by "by design".
    Edited by GwaynLoki on June 27, 2014 9:14AM
  • CapuchinSeven
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    Dark Cloak does remove DoTs. What DoTs are you referring to? I've yet to see a DoT my cloak did not remove.

    Given that ZOS themselves have stated that it's not working correctly, and it's never working for me, bordering on useless, I'm more likely to go with that they have said.
  • leovuoeb17_ESO
    So far I have not been unable to shake of DoTs in Cyrodiil. If there are some other DoTs in PvE I don't know.
    Are we talking about stealth or invisibility here? I would really like to know what you mean by "by design".

    Both. And what I mean is: if you take damage you will get visible.

    Edited by leovuoeb17_ESO on June 27, 2014 10:32PM
  • GwaynLoki
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    deleted
    Edited by GwaynLoki on June 27, 2014 11:25PM
  • Prince_Edward
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    Guppet wrote: »
    I think the skill needs a complete re-work. The problem is caused by the fact ZOS wanted to avoid cooldowns. As a result it's now able to be used as a rotational ability.

    It should never have been able to be used as that. ZOS have set a predcedant with bolt escape to make abilities non spamable.

    What I would do is have it give you 10 seconds of complete invisability, during which you can go into normal stealth if you wish. You could then totally flee if you wish or you could get another stealth opener used.

    I would double its cost if used again within 30 seconds, so no one can spam it.

    If used in stealth, you would have super stealth for ten seconds, letting you sneak past just about anything.

    It would give the class the really unique stealth ability it's calling out for.




    10 seconds is an eon, especially in pvp. If you want to vanish for longer, you can always chain cast. However, as anyone that knows how to get perfect time on a chain-vanish can attest, you will have absolutely no magicka (spam it if you want, but....). Your vanish abilities are definitely a clutch skill, that can get you out of hard spots and also set you up for another flash damage rotation. They shouldn't be relied upon to get you to safety, but when used smartly they can.

    As far as "super stealth" I'm not sure what you're meaning by this. Also, there isn't much point in using a vanish ability while you're already in a hidden status. Can someone elaborate on why people keep doing this? You already get a damage bonus for a sneak attack, why would you use your magicka too? Do you're sneak attack, then vanish and do another. It's a much better use of your resources.

    As far as a unique stealth ability, You should know that Nightblades are the only class that can enter a hidden status while in combat. That already makes our abilities unique.
  • Guppet
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    Shadow cloak is complete invisability, you can't be seen at all. It lets you sneak past mobs far easier. You can sneak up to a pack of mobs and when they eye is about to open, you use cloak. You can then walk right past them and not get spotted. Had you you not used cloak, they would have seen through the stealth.

    I use it frequently in VR to just walk right through packs of mobs that would have aggroed had I tried to just stealth past.

    That's what I mean by super stealth. Large packs don't matter to me as I never have to engage them. Maybe that's why I'm actually liking VR content more than I was expecting.
    Edited by Guppet on June 28, 2014 5:09PM
  • Jarnhand
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    Guppet wrote: »
    Shadow cloak is complete invisability, you can't be seen at all. It lets you sneak past mobs far easier. You can sneak up to a pack of mobs and when they eye is about to open, you use cloak. You can then walk right past them and not get spotted. Had you you not used cloak, they would have seen through the stealth.

    I use it frequently in VR to just walk right through packs of mobs that would have aggroed had I tried to just stealth past.

    That's what I mean by super stealth. Large packs don't matter to me as I never have to engage them. Maybe that's why I'm actually liking VR content more than I was expecting.

    Maybe its working OK for you in PvE, but its buged, and you see it easily in PvP. it need to be fixed so it actually work as intended, not nerfed.
  • Prince_Edward
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    thats not "super stealth", thats just stealth..... that was the whole point.....
  • Guppet
    Guppet
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    thats not "super stealth", thats just stealth..... that was the whole point.....

    It's not stealth, it's invisibility. It's better than stealth. Guess you missed the entire point! It's using the normally in combat invisibility as a better form of stealth, while you are out of combat. Stealth can be seen through, invisability can't!
  • Samadhi
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    Guppet wrote: »
    ...Stealth can be seen through, invisability can't!

    If only this were actually true...
    "If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
    Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
  • Guppet
    Guppet
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    Samadhi wrote: »
    Guppet wrote: »
    ...Stealth can be seen through, invisability can't!

    If only this were actually true...

    I give up trying to help people. It can be used out of combat as a better form of stealth. If people can't see a use for that, then that's their issue.

    Just to give a final clarification of how powerful this is. I have done several of the solo dungeons in VR content, with no one else in them killing mobs, with the only kill being the boss. That's just not possible with normal stealth. Provided you don't get too close, you can pass mobs far easier than with normal stealth.
    Edited by Guppet on June 30, 2014 5:38PM
  • Samadhi
    Samadhi
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    Guppet wrote: »
    Samadhi wrote: »
    Guppet wrote: »
    ...Stealth can be seen through, invisability can't!

    If only this were actually true...

    I give up trying to help people. It can be used out of combat as a better form of stealth. If people can't see a use for that, then that's their issue.

    Just to give a final clarification of how powerful this is. I have done several of the solo dungeons in VR content, with no one else in them killing mobs, with the only kill being the boss. That's just not possible with normal stealth. Provided you don't get too close, you can pass mobs far easier than with normal stealth.

    Invisibility can be seen through in PvP.
    Even NPCs on the PvP map see through invisibility at times.

    It's all well and good if you can use this skill to get around more easily in PvE; however, PvE is not what 99% of the complaints about this skill are over.
    "If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
    Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
  • Guppet
    Guppet
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    Samadhi wrote: »
    Guppet wrote: »
    Samadhi wrote: »
    Guppet wrote: »
    ...Stealth can be seen through, invisability can't!

    If only this were actually true...

    I give up trying to help people. It can be used out of combat as a better form of stealth. If people can't see a use for that, then that's their issue.

    Just to give a final clarification of how powerful this is. I have done several of the solo dungeons in VR content, with no one else in them killing mobs, with the only kill being the boss. That's just not possible with normal stealth. Provided you don't get too close, you can pass mobs far easier than with normal stealth.

    Invisibility can be seen through in PvP.
    Even NPCs on the PvP map see through invisibility at times.

    It's all well and good if you can use this skill to get around more easily in PvE; however, PvE is not what 99% of the complaints about this skill are over.

    I know that the main issues of it not working are PVP based. The thing is that lots of people say they struggle with VR content as a NB and I have never seen another NB use it like I do. I'm saying that in PVE it is even more powerful than most realise. It seems that some people were completely unaware of just what I was meaning with super stealth.

    Used the way I use it in PVE, you need only take out mobs that you need for your quest, no other class can bypass that much combat. Some people think avoiding combat is not an option. To me that's why I rolled NB.

    I also think that if it worked in PVP, like it does in PVE, if would be nerfed within days, ruining it's use in PVE.
    Edited by Guppet on June 30, 2014 6:33PM
  • Jaxom
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    Keep in mind that ANYONE can go invisible during combat. I keep seeing people say that NB's are the only ones who can do this. NB's have an ability which can be cast a number of times in a row if desired( when it works) however anyone can go invisible with potions.
  • CapuchinSeven
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    Guppet wrote: »
    Some people think avoiding combat is not an option. To me that's why I rolled NB.

    OF course, totally avoiding the content and walking past it so you play less of the game and level slower every other class, why didn't I think of that.
  • Guppet
    Guppet
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    Guppet wrote: »
    Some people think avoiding combat is not an option. To me that's why I rolled NB.

    OF course, totally avoiding the content and walking past it so you play less of the game and level slower every other class, why didn't I think of that.

    Really? You do know what stealth is for right? its to sneak past things. By your logic stealth is useless. By all means, you go play a faceroll class that has to charge every mob they come across.

    In VR content, avoiding packs of mobs will actually speed up your levelling process, since they award so little VP and take so long to kill.

    The ability to avoid mobs might be useful in a game, that has most of its complaints being something like, "VR trash mobs are annoyingly overpowered and no fun to fight". Let me know if you ever see a game like that, coz I'll use stealth in it to avoid all that frustration :)
    Edited by Guppet on July 1, 2014 9:54AM
  • CapuchinSeven
    CapuchinSeven
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    Guppet wrote: »
    Really? You do know what stealth is for right? its to sneak past things. By your logic stealth is useless.

    No. No it's not. Stealth is for us to gain burst damage on open, and to give us the ability to get close to do so before engaging in combat. Stealth is to protect us when we're in combat. Stealth is to increase our damage when we're in combat.

    While avoiding mobs is possible it's just one aspect to stealth.
    Guppet wrote: »
    By all means, you go play a faceroll class that has to charge every mob they come across.

    So, lets get this clear, lets totally expose your logic here.

    Actually killing the mobs and playing the game is a "faceroll" class, but stealthing past mobs and not playing the content, getting the loot or pre VR XP by spamming a single ability makes you a pro. Right.

    You're not the only person to work out he can press a single key over and over again. No one does it because they, you know, actually want to play the game.

    It doesn't work, ZOS state it doesn't work, you play the way you want but because you're using it to totally skip mobs, content, loot and XP doesn't mean that it works.
  • Prince_Edward
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    I agree with Cap more or less. Also, I want to point out that you're not the only one to ever figure out that you can sneak past someone, as I clearly referenced chain-casting a vanish ability before your comments about "you being the only one to do this".....
  • Guppet
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    I agree with Cap more or less. Also, I want to point out that you're not the only one to ever figure out that you can sneak past someone, as I clearly referenced chain-casting a vanish ability before your comments about "you being the only one to do this".....

    I never claimed to be the only one doing it, I said I don't think many are aware of its use, as a super stealth.

    Your reference to chain casting was in combat, its not what I was saying at all. You said if you want to vanish for longer, then chain cast.

    If Cap cant see that avoiding mobs completely, is a massive benefit of stealth then that's his issue. Obviously it helps you get an opener, but that is not its only use, if that is its only use for you, then you are not using the ability to its fullest extent.

    I choose to avoid those annoying packs of mobs in VR, those that it seems everyone complains about. Now for some reason that is avoiding the purpose of the game? That's using class mechanics to make the game more enjoyable to me.

    Any NB that complains about large pack of mobs in VR, that they don't have to kill to achieve their quest objectives, needs to seriously asses if they are actually playing the right class for their playstyle. If you enjoy taking out large packs of mobs, then there are better classes for that.

    Stealth based classes are always best in small scale fights, so avoiding large packs. Its why there is so much dissatisfaction with NB, they want to do everything just like the other classes, ignoring the fact that the class is different. There's no point in having classes if they all perform the same in all roles.

    Ah I give up, feel free to kill all those mobs, ill sneak past them and get 2 more quests completed while you do that.
  • Lynx7386
    Lynx7386
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    Stealth is to protect us when we're in combat. Stealth is to increase our damage when we're in combat.

    Stealth is not for either of these things, considering it cannot be used once combat has been initiated.
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  • CapuchinSeven
    CapuchinSeven
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    Lynx7386 wrote: »
    Stealth is to protect us when we're in combat. Stealth is to increase our damage when we're in combat.

    Stealth is not for either of these things, considering it cannot be used once combat has been initiated.

    Please read the title of a thread before posting. Every person in this thread that uses the word stealth is referring to invisibility from Shadow Disguise, everyone else managed to work that out.
    Guppet wrote: »
    Ah I give up, feel free to kill all those mobs, ill sneak past them and get 2 more quests completed while you do that.

    One more time. It's broken. It's breaking from our own dots, it's breaking in PVP at random, it's breaking in PVP if a group member is in combat and you're not. It's broken. These are confirmed by ZOS.

    Moving past 20 mobs to "get 2 more quests completed" and skipping content does not mean that it's not broken. It does not change anything stated above. Your single "massive benefit" does not make the ability not broken.

    There is a reason everyone in the thread is auguring with you, you're pushing a single point that really ultimately doesn't have anything to do with what's being said.

    Your single point does not override every other circumstance that stops it from working.

    Please engage everything you have and try to understand that. No body cares that you're avoiding content by walking past VR mobs because everything else about it is broken. Good luck "walking past mobs" in PVP or group dungeons. I'm sure everyone will be just thrilled by you taking up a raid spot.
    Edited by CapuchinSeven on July 1, 2014 6:38PM
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