Improvements for Stamina-Based Skills and Passives

Lyall84

Mortosk wrote: »

Lyall84 wrote: »

Mortosk wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Denaia wrote: »

I forget to add it in my first post; what is going to happen for us heavy armor-dps users? As it is decent enough to use, but certainly not as good as using medium (after changes) or light armor. I would like to see heavy armor becoming a bit more viable for those who wish to melee-dps with it.

We're looking at ways we can improve the Heavy Armor skill line as well.

Can start by making it actually mitigate damage. Then, if you're giving Medium 14% max stamina regen/reduction, why not give Heavy 7% max magicka and 7% max stamina regen/reduction.

Go for the increase in mitigation and survival first. See how that plays out before screaming for regen. You have to be careful about keeping the balance. Everyone wants their armor type or play style to be the best, but that is unreasonable.

I thought it was a pretty reasonable suggestion.

Light armor gets pure +Magicka regen/reduction
Medium armor gets pure +Stamina regen/reduction
Heavy armor should get half the regen/reduction of each.

That makes all 3 armor types unique and equal when it comes to resource management.

Heavy armor is already set up to be, and has been in other TES games, the health stat set. Not the stamina and magicka set.

Edit, it just needs a little boost.

Lyall84

frogprincess_q4 wrote: »

As a medium armour NB, I'm pretty excited by these changes. Maybe I'll even be able to survive PvP for more than 30 seconds.

However, my biggest Medium Armour problem is that as a crafter and as a player that is permanently overlevelled, I am constantly having trouble sourcing the next level of medium armour crafting mats.

Atm I am level 46 with half of Reaper's March to go, so I need fell hide. There is NO fell hide to be had and I can't go to the next area for some. Maybe I can get some in Cyrodiil, but as I am so overlevelled already I'm just trying to get quests done before I outlevel them completely. Half of my journal is already greyed out.

I have trouble sourcing Medium Armour mats every single time I level into the next type. It's so sad

Agreed, this is a problem. Especially when in a zone prior to a new tier of crafting materials, you start seeing the wood and ore and plants all over, but the correct tier of leather only drops from the correct level of animal.

Cogo

frogprincess_q4 wrote: »

As a medium armour NB, I'm pretty excited by these changes. Maybe I'll even be able to survive PvP for more than 30 seconds.

However, my biggest Medium Armour problem is that as a crafter and as a player that is permanently overlevelled, I am constantly having trouble sourcing the next level of medium armour crafting mats.

Atm I am level 46 with half of Reaper's March to go, so I need fell hide. There is NO fell hide to be had and I can't go to the next area for some. Maybe I can get some in Cyrodiil, but as I am so overlevelled already I'm just trying to get quests done before I outlevel them completely. Half of my journal is already greyed out.

I have trouble sourcing Medium Armour mats every single time I level into the next type. It's so sad

Fell hide can be found in coldharbour.

Cogo

Mortosk wrote: »

I thought it was a pretty reasonable suggestion.

Light armor gets pure +Magicka regen/reduction
Medium armor gets pure +Stamina regen/reduction
Heavy armor should get half the regen/reduction of each.

That makes all 3 armor types unique and equal when it comes to resource management.

Um, Heavy armor is unique already. No stamina/magika what so ever have anything to do with heavy armor.

Heavy armor: Biggest protection, Increased armor and SPELL RESIST (this is a big one), Health recovery, even weapon damage bonus. Small bonus I agree and that can be discussed, increased healing. Even the 5% makes a difference for a tank. And the HUGE 20% reduction in BLOCK. There you have a stamina reduction already.

No regen of stamina and magika on heavy armor. You only make heavy armor to powerful then. We do NOT want that circus. Those attributes don't belong on heavy.

They are unique the way they are. Tweaking their stats, that's another thing.


What I can understand is a question from heavy armor front damage builds. You do get protection, so that's useful for any damage dealer, as well as the resist and health regen.

The weapon damage buff you get from heavy armor, might be to small?
I don't know. But in the same question, I wonder if heavy armor should be the main "buffer" for damage weapons? I think its ok as it is. But can be discussed.

For example, as a pure tank with 0 skills in any damage ability, i SUCK at even mobs 1-50. BUT in Coldharbour, I was expecting to not be able to kill anything unless I grouped up with someone.

Most mobs in there seamed to be Daedra and undead. The 9% extra damage from the fighter guild skill line (Didnt have it). When I put skill point in there, I had no problem killing most things! Felt a lot more damage then 9%!

All 3 armors should have unique differences, and not "mirror" each other. This is how you build so many different builds, isn't it?

Lyall84

While I am happy that the developers are making improvements. I am going to post this from a different post I created just to see what people think seeing how we are on the topic of armor adjustments.

Here are the passives for each armor as they stand:

Light Armor
Evocation - Reduces Magicka cost of spells by 3% per piece of Light Armor equipped. Max bonus: 21%.
Recovery - Increases Magicka recovery by 4% per piece of Light Armor equipped. Max Bonus: 28%.
Spell Warding - Increases base Spell Resistance by 8% per piece of Light Armor equipped. Max bonus 32% (shows as the actual value in game, even though the character sheet does not show how much that value actually helps).
Prodigy - Grants 10% chance for spells to cause Critical Damage while a Light Armor set of 5 or more pieces is equipped.
Concentration - Player's spells ignore 6% of enemy Spell Resistance per piece of Light Armor equipped. Max bonus 42%.

Medium Armor
Dexterity - Increases Critical Strike chance with physical attacks by 3% per piece of Medium Armor equipped. Max bonus: 21%.
Wind Walker - Increases Stamina Recovery by 4% per piece of Medium Armor equipped. Max bonus: 28%.
Improved Sneak - Decreases the detection area size by 5% and the cost of sneaking by 7% per piece of Medium Armor equipped. Max bonus 35% detection area decrease, 49% Sneak cost decrease.
Agility - Increases attack speed by 10% when a Medium Armor set of 5 or more pieces is equipped.
Athletics - Increases sprint move speed by 3% and decreases the stamina cost of roll dodge by 4% per piece of Medium Armor equipped. Max bonus 21% Sprint speed, 28% dodge roll reduction.

Heavy Armor
Resolve - Increases Armor by 3% and base Spell Resist by 3% for each piece of Heavy Armor equipped. Max bonus 21% Armor, 21% Spell Resist (shows as the actual value in game, even though the character sheet does not show how much that value actually helps).
Constitution - Increases Health Recovery by 4% per piece of Heavy Armor equipped. Max bonus 28%.
Juggernaut - Increases Weapon Damage with melee attacks by 1% per piece of Heavy Armor equipped. Max bonus 7%.
Bracing - Decreases cost of blocking by 20% when a Heavy Armor set of 5 or more pieces is equipped.
Rapid Mending - Increases healing received by 1% per piece of Heavy Armor equipped. Max bonus 7%.

If you look at these, for the most part they follow a pattern:

First Passive - Increases efficiency of the general role based on the armor type, Light reduces magicka cost, Heavy reduces received damage(the armor increase should be a little more in my opinion, 6% instead of just 3%), Medium increases critical chance?...This is where I have an issue. Stamina is, for every role, a defensive resource, so for medium armor using weapon skills it is also their offensive as well as defensive resource. So why does medium armor not reduce stamina cost of spells and abilities. Dexterity needs to be changed to reflect that, so stamina abilities can be used with the same efficiency as magicka ones. They are adding the 2% per piece for 14% total to Wind Walker, when they should remove the critical from Dexterity to 3% stamina reduction per piece (for those screaming about the weapon skill reductions, first, magicka does not have to use its primary resource for CC break, second, hold your breath because I will get to that in a minute).

Second Passive - Increases Magicka, Stamina, and Health recovery respectively. Fits the pattern across the board. Here is where I would make one change though, for the heavy armor wearing, this is where the increased healing received should be, and it should keep the same percentages, ie, 4% per piece for 28% max healing received. My though process on this has changed from my other post because after hearing more and more heavy armor users complaining about how they do not have enough resource generation, I realize they need a boost, but I feel that giving them resource generation is against the concept of the armor. Heavy armor is suppose to last long enough that you can afford to regenerate magicka and stamina slower. This would be a sizable boost in healing, making tanks more tanky. If this % needs to be tweaked down to not make tanks overpowered, then it would be easy to change it to 2% or 3% per piece.

Third Passive - Because Light is pointed down the direction of casters (DPS or healing, not directly taking damage) this is a defensive passive (opposite of the rest of the passives for this skill line), increase spell resist, that way they do not take as much damage from other casters behind the enemy lines, or from AOE during PvE encounters. Because Heavy is pointed down the direction of tanks, this is an offensive passive (opposite for said reasons above), increases damage with melee weapons, so they can play a DPS role or a PvP tank role and still dish out some damge...though the 7% is weak, it should be 2% per piece for 14% total, this only effects melee damage, therefore weapon skills, not class skills. This should also be changed to effect other weapon skills (bows and staffs). This will help even the balance of how much damage a tank can dish out. Because Medium is geared towards melee DPS (or bow for ranged), it increases sneak efficiency...wait...this is only good out of combat or prior to the fight starting, so, more of an offensive boost. This is where Athletics needs to be. Move Athletics down here so it can act as a real defensive boost for Medium Armor, increased sprint and reduced dodge cost, especially seeing how stamina is pulling double duty in this tree. This reduction of sneak cost and detection should be removed completely from medium armor (before calling me a traitor, or going off the walls about sneaky sneaky, I have a better balanced suggestion for this too).

Fourth Passive - 5 set bonuses, each one is good, each one applies to the stereotype for the armor. This follows the pattern of light is caster, medium is weapons, and heavy is tank. Maybe the bonus on each set needs to be increased by 50% to make the set feel more important? Not sure

Fifth Passive - HUGE DPS increase for Light Armor, ignore 42% of enemy spell resistance? Unless your enemy is also wearing Light Armor, that will crush the amount of damage offered by the increased critical chance offered by medium armor, not to mention unless they change how critical works (I feel they should just combine spell and weapon critical and just have critical, change out one of the critical blocks on the character screen to critical magnitude, show us how much more our critical damage hits for, be it from passives, weapon traits or mundus stones) light armor can make up for that critical with mage light morph. So they can have the critical and the spell penetration. Medium armor...yeah, this is where your defensive passive is instead of where it is compared to the rest of the armors pattern of passives. Athletics needs to be moved to where improved sneak is, and a new passive to add armor penetration needs to be added here, with the same % as spell penetration that light armor gets. This passive difference is the biggest reason for the disparity between light magicka and medium stamina builds DPS in both PvP and PvE. The reduction of costs being a close second. Heavy armor, increased healing here right now, but this is where I would put their health regeneration just because of the % benefit I would assign to it. I would match the same 6% per piece that light, and my suggestion for medium would give. Giving heavy armor 6% health regeneration per piece for 42% total increase. Health regeneration is already base lower than the other two, and this should be a big enough increase for tanks to actually notice their health go up.

My end suggested passives:

Light Armor
Evocation - Reduces Magicka cost of spells by 3% per piece of Light Armor equipped. Max bonus: 21%.
Recovery - Increases Magicka recovery by 4% per piece of Light Armor equipped. Max Bonus: 28%.
Spell Warding - Increases base Spell Resistance by 8% per piece of Light Armor equipped. Max bonus 32% (shows as the actual value in game, even though the character sheet does not show how much that value actually helps).
Prodigy - Grants 10% chance for spells to cause Critical Damage while a Light Armor set of 5 or more pieces is equipped.
Concentration - Player's spells ignore 6% of enemy Spell Resistance per piece of Light Armor equipped. Max bonus 42%.

Medium Armor
Dexterity - Reduces Stamina cost of abilities by 3% per piece of Light Armor equipped. Max bonus: 21%.
Wind Walker - Increases Stamina Recovery by 4% per piece of Medium Armor equipped. Max bonus: 28%.
Athletics - Increases sprint move speed by 3% and decreases the stamina cost of roll dodge by 4% per piece of Medium Armor equipped. Max bonus 21% Sprint speed, 28% dodge roll reduction.
Agility - Increases attack speed by 10% when a Medium Armor set of 5 or more pieces is equipped.
Weapon Master - Player's abilities ignore 6% of enemy Armor per piece of Medium Armor equipped. Max bonus 42%

Heavy Armor
Resolve - Increases Armor by 6% and base Spell Resist by 3% for each piece of Heavy Armor equipped. Max bonus 42% Armor, 21% Spell Resist (shows as the actual value in game, even though the character sheet does not show how much that value actually helps).
Rapid Mending - Increases healing received by 4% per piece of Heavy Armor equipped. Max bonus 28%.
Juggernaut - Increases Weapon Damage with attacks by 2% per piece of Heavy Armor equipped. Max bonus 14%.
Bracing - Decreases cost of blocking by 20% when a Heavy Armor set of 5 or more pieces is equipped.
Constitution - Increases Health Recovery by 6% per piece of Heavy Armor equipped. Max bonus 42%.

Now about the two issues I asked people to wait for regarding weapon skill cost reduction passives and sneak passives.

First, change all the weapon skill reduction passives from 10%/20% stamina reduction to the following:

Decreases stamina costs and increases ability damage by 5%/10%.

That does two things, it would still give stamina a much needed stamina reduction, and also give them a moderate damage boost to make up for the fact that they are (for the most part) melee abilities.

Second, I suggested we remove sneak stamina reduction and sneak detection radius passives from medium armor. The sneak cost reduction belongs on the "well-fitted" armor trait in addition to the sprint. It should reduce both sprint and sneak. That way you can have your sneaky mages, or sneaky knights in addition to your sneaky rogues. Give players the choice to craft their gear sneaky or not.

As for the detection radius, keep that out of the game until Thief Guild and Dark Brotherhood are introduced. They are going to need passives like sneak detection reduction in their skill lines to match up with who they are.

Breg_Magol

Oh bugger ... time to respec back to where I was happy .. DW with bow. Tried this magic staff stuff (destro .. to experience for myself) and even wore a skirt for the duration ... but found myself hiding from other players all the time in case they saw me while cross-dressing .

At least in medium armour .. no one can see the frilly knickers .. ;o).

Quaesivi

So... Lets see...

Poison Arrow -> No one uses the DoT, thanks to your all powerful animation clipping.

Snipe -> Well, only useful change I'd believe.

Flurry -> Final hit takes much longer than the 1.3 second channeling that is advertised, usually either misses or again, animation cancelling to block so we don't die.

Medium Armor -> Nice change, but pointless as it would only help us use 1 more skill IF we are lucky thanks to the ridiculous costs.

Two-Handed -> I don't use so got no idea.

Where is the Heavy Armor / 1H-Shield? OR anything about the ridiculous cost per damage of the skills... or anything about the Dodge/Block/CC-Break? To be perfectly honest, these changes are... pointless.

xaraan

Nice to see some changes, but far from enough.

Snipe - reducing range - really?? It needed a slight increase actually, many regular class spells have the same range, without cast time, and as much or more damage, plus some have things like knockdown on top of it. I can hit people sniping at me with a standard attack from a resto staff.

Do you know what really makes light armor better than medium? It's not just cost reduction, it's spell penetration. Why use a poison arrow that does 350 damage against full armor, when I can use a spell for more damage and get past 47% of their spell resistance.

That on top of the variety offered by all magicka, if I mix staff powers with class powers they all do extra damage from my stamina build. If I mix class powers with weapon powers on a stamina build, the class powers do crap for damage.

There is a lot more going on problem wise than what you are tinkering with.

Sakiri

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Denaia wrote: »

I forget to add it in my first post; what is going to happen for us heavy armor-dps users? As it is decent enough to use, but certainly not as good as using medium (after changes) or light armor. I would like to see heavy armor becoming a bit more viable for those who wish to melee-dps with it.

IMO, heavy armor as well as 1h/shield shouldn't yield as much damage oriented buffs as medium/light. Heavy armor exists because of it's increased defenses, same with 1h/shield. To expect something with increased defenses to have the same offensive output as something with less defenses is silly to me.

While I recognize this isn't necessarily what you expect or were implying, Denaia. I'm just using your comment as a vehicle to state my belief that someone who chooses to invest in some heavy armor shouldn't be absolutely crippled as a damage user, but should certainly give up some of that damage potential for a more defensive armor type. So I do agree with you to an extent.

Unfortunately one could argue light armor has enough defenses to make this all a moot point, but I think that was unintended and will be scaled down soon enough. My overall point is this:

Sure you should be able to go pvp as a melee or even caster in heavy armor and be effective due to your increased defenses and not have absolute crap offenses if you choose to use an offensive weapon.

However that by no means should go so far as to make heavy armor do the same or similar dps as the two dps oriented armor trees, light/medium, since the game works under the assumption that these two armor trees are less defensive, even though in the current state of the game that might not be the case(yet).

Until there's a significant defensive advantage to heavy over medium and light, then they'd best damn well be equal in terms of DPS capability.

As it is, anything over soft cap is mostly wasted because the DR curve is stupid, and the soft cap is ridiculously easy to reach.

If I have the same effect from any of the three armor types in terms of damage reduction, then there's no bloody excuse for them to not be equal in terms of damage output passives.

On top of it, VR level mobs have this lovely ability to hit me just as hard in plate as they do in cloth, making armor effectively POINTLESS.

What I described is in an ideal sense. Not in actuality. Of course right now heavy armor is under performing in it's defensive capabilities. But at its core, heavy armor exists to be the most defensive option.

We should work towards making heavy armor as defensive as it should be rather than making it a choice for dps. Doing the opposite as you seem to wish seems pretty out there to me.

EDIT: My thoughts are that light armors defensive capabilities are way too high and needs to be tuned down. Medium armor MAY need a similar treatment but it doesn't seem like it to me.

If anything, the melee weapon damage increase from HA could stand to go up.

Momentum. Something that heavy moving isn't going to stop.

If they're going to do that though it needs to *stay* melee weapons.

Lyall84 wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

Lyall84 wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

Heavy armor needs cost reduction or some other way to help with resource management. Tanks have the hardest time since they need to invest in all three resources.

Casters can overcharge magicka, get amazing magicka cost reduction, and use only magicka skills. It's like a completely different game playing as a caster.

Disagree, that is what jewelry is for, if you add to much regen on heavy it would become the master armor.

If regen didn't suck complete butt I'd agree with you.

I see 0 noticeable difference with or without regen. I stack ability reduction instead. I'd rather take longer to run out than wait a year to get enough back to do something when I'm trying to not die.

Lyall84 wrote: »

adam.s.jonesub17_ESO wrote: »

Cogo wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

IMO heavy armor should make cc break cheaper as well as blocking (put it in the same passive.) that would got a long way.

Are you talking as tank or other build?

For blocking, there are rings and enchants that takes care of this.

Blocking work very well. What you have to control is not to keep block up....but to time the block on the attack. Or even better, interupt and stun the incoming attack.

CC break cheaper? Mind explain? Not sure what you mean

blocking is extremely expensive maybe a dk tank that never uses stamina doesn't worry about it, but it cost about 300stamina to block an attack. if your sitting on a pool of 1200-500 that a big chunk.

CC breaker is when you hold left and hit right and hold. It breaks you out of cc's and stuns have to have as a melee class cost about 600 stamina to use.

30%, changes as you raise max. So cheaper for magicka builds of you look at actual cost number vs%.

Uses a percentage of max stamina from what I've seen.

Means putting points into stamina so you can use them more often is BS, basically.

Lyall84 wrote: »

Archaon wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

ArRashid wrote: »

While your anger is understandable, you need to realize stamina users don't use stamina for just attacking, but also for defending, while magicka users only use magicka for attacking

Similarly, Stamina users can use their whole magicka pool for buffs, debuffs, utility and heals, and they do not impact their ability to attack when doing so.

I agree that things are currently imbalanced toward magicka builds, but the dynamic you describe does apply to everyone in some respect ;0

So you pay more than a stamina user for blocking/dodging/breakingcc? Do you mitigate less while blocking for using a wood stick to do it?

What about you start using circle of protection or immovable? Those are buffs based on stamina, so save the bs about the buffs being magicka and stamina being for block as if you couldnt use stamina for buffs as well.

And, breaking news, you will pay the same cost as stamina users for it (worth it, but does not work the other way) as they dont have any stamina cost reduction passive..

Seriously, these changes by ZOS make it clear they have absolutely no clue about how to handle the stamina issue.

If they think a few pewpew 10% damage buff to some skills (and the most buffed being an arrow skill rofl) is gonna make it worth, they are dead wrong.

Of course, heavy (the shittiest of all three armors right now) get absolutely ZERO.

Disagree on the heavy being the worst. Medium was the worst, heavy being a close second.

The crit chance on Medium automatically made it better than heavy, easy.

But the problem with stamina builds? Armor is the least of them.

We are like minded in most aspects, but I think the spell resist offered for the heavy is more than a comparable stat to medium crit. Medium is offensive, heavy defensive. Especially in this world of stick wielding bathrobes, the spell resistance is more useful. With these changes, we will be able to see if the game becomes more balanced.

Spell resistance, much like armor, doesn't do jack nor squat for VR mobs.

I don't PvP. I'll never PvP. My views are from VR leveling only. Before then, you can put on any weapon, no armor, and still win.

Once you get to VR, you might as well be doing the same thing because you're still getting hit as if you aren't wearing armor.

frogprincess_q4 wrote: »

As a medium armour NB, I'm pretty excited by these changes. Maybe I'll even be able to survive PvP for more than 30 seconds.

However, my biggest Medium Armour problem is that as a crafter and as a player that is permanently overlevelled, I am constantly having trouble sourcing the next level of medium armour crafting mats.

Atm I am level 46 with half of Reaper's March to go, so I need fell hide. There is NO fell hide to be had and I can't go to the next area for some. Maybe I can get some in Cyrodiil, but as I am so overlevelled already I'm just trying to get quests done before I outlevel them completely. Half of my journal is already greyed out.

I have trouble sourcing Medium Armour mats every single time I level into the next type. It's so sad

Cryodiil is all VR5 now.

You want Fell Hide you need to go to Coldharbour for it. Fast track the zone's main storyline and head over there. Come back for the rest of RM later. Only thing I can suggest.

Sakiri

Eivar wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

SilverWF wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We look forward to hearing your thoughts!

Ok, if they want to be a "pure" staminers - so be it!

Medium armor - +3% magicka cost per piece of Medium armor equipped

Heavy armor - +1% magicka cost per piece of Heavy armor equipped

Fair? Yes.

Have you *seen* DK magicka costs?

Before reduction.

My current alt is having issues and I'm rocking 3p Seducer/3p Magnus heavy...

I'm so stubborn to try making heavy armor work it's come to that. Divines with Mage stone too. Might switch that around a bit.

Anything to not be stuck in a dress. I *am* using restoration staff. Only weapon.

Stamina weapons problems come from a few things, and armor type is the least of it's problems.

Heavily relying on bleeds and stamina cost of abilities are pretty high up there in the "*sigh*" part.

if you aren't already using it you should try out the warlock set.

Would be if my only set wasn't on my templar.

Her magicka problems are worse. She's been wearing it since level 15 >.>

Sakiri

Lyall84 wrote: »

Mortosk wrote: »

Lyall84 wrote: »

Mortosk wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Denaia wrote: »

I forget to add it in my first post; what is going to happen for us heavy armor-dps users? As it is decent enough to use, but certainly not as good as using medium (after changes) or light armor. I would like to see heavy armor becoming a bit more viable for those who wish to melee-dps with it.

We're looking at ways we can improve the Heavy Armor skill line as well.

Can start by making it actually mitigate damage. Then, if you're giving Medium 14% max stamina regen/reduction, why not give Heavy 7% max magicka and 7% max stamina regen/reduction.

Go for the increase in mitigation and survival first. See how that plays out before screaming for regen. You have to be careful about keeping the balance. Everyone wants their armor type or play style to be the best, but that is unreasonable.

I thought it was a pretty reasonable suggestion.

Light armor gets pure +Magicka regen/reduction
Medium armor gets pure +Stamina regen/reduction
Heavy armor should get half the regen/reduction of each.

That makes all 3 armor types unique and equal when it comes to resource management.

Heavy armor is already set up to be, and has been in other TES games, the health stat set. Not the stamina and magicka set.

Edit, it just needs a little boost.

Needs more than a little.

All the health in the world isn't going to do anything when health recovery rate sucks and might as well not exist, and when VR mobs hit you as if you're not wearing armor at all.

Increased armor and SPELL RESIST (this is a big one),

Did you see where armor and spell resist don't do jack to reduce incoming damage?

And on top of it, you can cap your armor and spell resist in light armor. Fairly easily too. You get *more* spell resist in light armor.

Until they make armor rating worth having, wear a dress and save your breath.

xaraan wrote: »

Nice to see some changes, but far from enough.

Snipe - reducing range - really?? It needed a slight increase actually, many regular class spells have the same range, without cast time, and as much or more damage, plus some have things like knockdown on top of it. I can hit people sniping at me with a standard attack from a resto staff.

Do you know what really makes light armor better than medium? It's not just cost reduction, it's spell penetration. Why use a poison arrow that does 350 damage against full armor, when I can use a spell for more damage and get past 47% of their spell resistance.

That on top of the variety offered by all magicka, if I mix staff powers with class powers they all do extra damage from my stamina build. If I mix class powers with weapon powers on a stamina build, the class powers do crap for damage.

There is a lot more going on problem wise than what you are tinkering with.

I don't know of a single class ability with a range as far as Snipe's range.

Everything is set at 28 meters. Snipe was like what, 35 with a morph to extend it?

Eivar

Lyall84 wrote: »

While I am happy that the developers are making improvements. I am going to post this from a different post I created just to see what people think seeing how we are on the topic of armor adjustments.

Here are the passives for each armor as they stand:

Light Armor
Evocation - Reduces Magicka cost of spells by 3% per piece of Light Armor equipped. Max bonus: 21%.
Recovery - Increases Magicka recovery by 4% per piece of Light Armor equipped. Max Bonus: 28%.
Spell Warding - Increases base Spell Resistance by 8% per piece of Light Armor equipped. Max bonus 32% (shows as the actual value in game, even though the character sheet does not show how much that value actually helps).
Prodigy - Grants 10% chance for spells to cause Critical Damage while a Light Armor set of 5 or more pieces is equipped.
Concentration - Player's spells ignore 6% of enemy Spell Resistance per piece of Light Armor equipped. Max bonus 42%.

Medium Armor
Dexterity - Increases Critical Strike chance with physical attacks by 3% per piece of Medium Armor equipped. Max bonus: 21%.
Wind Walker - Increases Stamina Recovery by 4% per piece of Medium Armor equipped. Max bonus: 28%.
Improved Sneak - Decreases the detection area size by 5% and the cost of sneaking by 7% per piece of Medium Armor equipped. Max bonus 35% detection area decrease, 49% Sneak cost decrease.
Agility - Increases attack speed by 10% when a Medium Armor set of 5 or more pieces is equipped.
Athletics - Increases sprint move speed by 3% and decreases the stamina cost of roll dodge by 4% per piece of Medium Armor equipped. Max bonus 21% Sprint speed, 28% dodge roll reduction.

Heavy Armor
Resolve - Increases Armor by 3% and base Spell Resist by 3% for each piece of Heavy Armor equipped. Max bonus 21% Armor, 21% Spell Resist (shows as the actual value in game, even though the character sheet does not show how much that value actually helps).
Constitution - Increases Health Recovery by 4% per piece of Heavy Armor equipped. Max bonus 28%.
Juggernaut - Increases Weapon Damage with melee attacks by 1% per piece of Heavy Armor equipped. Max bonus 7%.
Bracing - Decreases cost of blocking by 20% when a Heavy Armor set of 5 or more pieces is equipped.
Rapid Mending - Increases healing received by 1% per piece of Heavy Armor equipped. Max bonus 7%.

If you look at these, for the most part they follow a pattern:

First Passive - Increases efficiency of the general role based on the armor type, Light reduces magicka cost, Heavy reduces received damage(the armor increase should be a little more in my opinion, 6% instead of just 3%), Medium increases critical chance?...This is where I have an issue. Stamina is, for every role, a defensive resource, so for medium armor using weapon skills it is also their offensive as well as defensive resource. So why does medium armor not reduce stamina cost of spells and abilities. Dexterity needs to be changed to reflect that, so stamina abilities can be used with the same efficiency as magicka ones. They are adding the 2% per piece for 14% total to Wind Walker, when they should remove the critical from Dexterity to 3% stamina reduction per piece (for those screaming about the weapon skill reductions, first, magicka does not have to use its primary resource for CC break, second, hold your breath because I will get to that in a minute).

Second Passive - Increases Magicka, Stamina, and Health recovery respectively. Fits the pattern across the board. Here is where I would make one change though, for the heavy armor wearing, this is where the increased healing received should be, and it should keep the same percentages, ie, 4% per piece for 28% max healing received. My though process on this has changed from my other post because after hearing more and more heavy armor users complaining about how they do not have enough resource generation, I realize they need a boost, but I feel that giving them resource generation is against the concept of the armor. Heavy armor is suppose to last long enough that you can afford to regenerate magicka and stamina slower. This would be a sizable boost in healing, making tanks more tanky. If this % needs to be tweaked down to not make tanks overpowered, then it would be easy to change it to 2% or 3% per piece.

Third Passive - Because Light is pointed down the direction of casters (DPS or healing, not directly taking damage) this is a defensive passive (opposite of the rest of the passives for this skill line), increase spell resist, that way they do not take as much damage from other casters behind the enemy lines, or from AOE during PvE encounters. Because Heavy is pointed down the direction of tanks, this is an offensive passive (opposite for said reasons above), increases damage with melee weapons, so they can play a DPS role or a PvP tank role and still dish out some damge...though the 7% is weak, it should be 2% per piece for 14% total, this only effects melee damage, therefore weapon skills, not class skills. This should also be changed to effect other weapon skills (bows and staffs). This will help even the balance of how much damage a tank can dish out. Because Medium is geared towards melee DPS (or bow for ranged), it increases sneak efficiency...wait...this is only good out of combat or prior to the fight starting, so, more of an offensive boost. This is where Athletics needs to be. Move Athletics down here so it can act as a real defensive boost for Medium Armor, increased sprint and reduced dodge cost, especially seeing how stamina is pulling double duty in this tree. This reduction of sneak cost and detection should be removed completely from medium armor (before calling me a traitor, or going off the walls about sneaky sneaky, I have a better balanced suggestion for this too).

Fourth Passive - 5 set bonuses, each one is good, each one applies to the stereotype for the armor. This follows the pattern of light is caster, medium is weapons, and heavy is tank. Maybe the bonus on each set needs to be increased by 50% to make the set feel more important? Not sure

Fifth Passive - HUGE DPS increase for Light Armor, ignore 42% of enemy spell resistance? Unless your enemy is also wearing Light Armor, that will crush the amount of damage offered by the increased critical chance offered by medium armor, not to mention unless they change how critical works (I feel they should just combine spell and weapon critical and just have critical, change out one of the critical blocks on the character screen to critical magnitude, show us how much more our critical damage hits for, be it from passives, weapon traits or mundus stones) light armor can make up for that critical with mage light morph. So they can have the critical and the spell penetration. Medium armor...yeah, this is where your defensive passive is instead of where it is compared to the rest of the armors pattern of passives. Athletics needs to be moved to where improved sneak is, and a new passive to add armor penetration needs to be added here, with the same % as spell penetration that light armor gets. This passive difference is the biggest reason for the disparity between light magicka and medium stamina builds DPS in both PvP and PvE. The reduction of costs being a close second. Heavy armor, increased healing here right now, but this is where I would put their health regeneration just because of the % benefit I would assign to it. I would match the same 6% per piece that light, and my suggestion for medium would give. Giving heavy armor 6% health regeneration per piece for 42% total increase. Health regeneration is already base lower than the other two, and this should be a big enough increase for tanks to actually notice their health go up.

My end suggested passives:

Light Armor
Evocation - Reduces Magicka cost of spells by 3% per piece of Light Armor equipped. Max bonus: 21%.
Recovery - Increases Magicka recovery by 4% per piece of Light Armor equipped. Max Bonus: 28%.
Spell Warding - Increases base Spell Resistance by 8% per piece of Light Armor equipped. Max bonus 32% (shows as the actual value in game, even though the character sheet does not show how much that value actually helps).
Prodigy - Grants 10% chance for spells to cause Critical Damage while a Light Armor set of 5 or more pieces is equipped.
Concentration - Player's spells ignore 6% of enemy Spell Resistance per piece of Light Armor equipped. Max bonus 42%.

Medium Armor
Dexterity - Reduces Stamina cost of abilities by 3% per piece of Light Armor equipped. Max bonus: 21%.
Wind Walker - Increases Stamina Recovery by 4% per piece of Medium Armor equipped. Max bonus: 28%.
Athletics - Increases sprint move speed by 3% and decreases the stamina cost of roll dodge by 4% per piece of Medium Armor equipped. Max bonus 21% Sprint speed, 28% dodge roll reduction.
Agility - Increases attack speed by 10% when a Medium Armor set of 5 or more pieces is equipped.
Weapon Master - Player's abilities ignore 6% of enemy Armor per piece of Medium Armor equipped. Max bonus 42%

Heavy Armor
Resolve - Increases Armor by 6% and base Spell Resist by 3% for each piece of Heavy Armor equipped. Max bonus 42% Armor, 21% Spell Resist (shows as the actual value in game, even though the character sheet does not show how much that value actually helps).
Rapid Mending - Increases healing received by 4% per piece of Heavy Armor equipped. Max bonus 28%.
Juggernaut - Increases Weapon Damage with attacks by 2% per piece of Heavy Armor equipped. Max bonus 14%.
Bracing - Decreases cost of blocking by 20% when a Heavy Armor set of 5 or more pieces is equipped.
Constitution - Increases Health Recovery by 6% per piece of Heavy Armor equipped. Max bonus 42%.

Now about the two issues I asked people to wait for regarding weapon skill cost reduction passives and sneak passives.

First, change all the weapon skill reduction passives from 10%/20% stamina reduction to the following:

Decreases stamina costs and increases ability damage by 5%/10%.

That does two things, it would still give stamina a much needed stamina reduction, and also give them a moderate damage boost to make up for the fact that they are (for the most part) melee abilities.

Second, I suggested we remove sneak stamina reduction and sneak detection radius passives from medium armor. The sneak cost reduction belongs on the "well-fitted" armor trait in addition to the sprint. It should reduce both sprint and sneak. That way you can have your sneaky mages, or sneaky knights in addition to your sneaky rogues. Give players the choice to craft their gear sneaky or not.

As for the detection radius, keep that out of the game until Thief Guild and Dark Brotherhood are introduced. They are going to need passives like sneak detection reduction in their skill lines to match up with who they are.

Now the problem becomes where do medium armor wearer get the crit they'll need to be competitive dpsers? Though i have got to say I had overlooked the issue with the lack of armor penetration, though assigning it to medium armor seems a bit out of place, it seems like that would fit better as a weapon passive.

Eivar

Sakiri wrote: »

Eivar wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

SilverWF wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We look forward to hearing your thoughts!

Ok, if they want to be a "pure" staminers - so be it!

Medium armor - +3% magicka cost per piece of Medium armor equipped

Heavy armor - +1% magicka cost per piece of Heavy armor equipped

Fair? Yes.

Have you *seen* DK magicka costs?

Before reduction.

My current alt is having issues and I'm rocking 3p Seducer/3p Magnus heavy...

I'm so stubborn to try making heavy armor work it's come to that. Divines with Mage stone too. Might switch that around a bit.

Anything to not be stuck in a dress. I *am* using restoration staff. Only weapon.

Stamina weapons problems come from a few things, and armor type is the least of it's problems.

Heavily relying on bleeds and stamina cost of abilities are pretty high up there in the "*sigh*" part.

if you aren't already using it you should try out the warlock set.

Would be if my only set wasn't on my templar.

Her magicka problems are worse. She's been wearing it since level 15 >.>

Well this would be a hassle, but you know "bound" gear is account bound ya? drop it in the bank grab it out on the character you need it on at the moment, etc etc.

Oh and snipe is/was 20m-40m with a morph that increased bow ability range by 5m.

Erlindur

Lyall84 wrote: »

Erlindur wrote: »

Lyall84 wrote: »

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

Also, am I the only one who would prefer to still have the range on Snipe? The cast time doesn't seem to me to be the issue.

Agreed

Snipe suffers from the ultimate cap in this game, the pvp balance cap. You shall never one shot your opponent in pvp. As long as this rule is on and they cannot find a way to disengage skills from their pvp dmg (like adding protection passives in a tree against certain attacks), snipe (and a lot of other skills) will remain useless.

But you can two shot with snipe, if the first attack happens to be from behind, it stuns, allowing the second shot and kill.

Yes, that is what I'm talking about. You can two shot someone. The first hit doesn't kill you and it gives you 3 secs to react before the second hit lands. It is not fair to one shot someone in pvp. It should be avoided at all costs and I agree with that approach.

So, your pvp balance cap, limits the damage output at really low levels that are influenced by the average pvp player's health bar. The problem is that this renders the skill more or less useless in pve (I should have clarified that in my first post). With my current bow/DW setup, I cannot think of a situation that would give me a real advantage to open with snipe in solo. In group, the 3 (or even 2) sec delay, makes the dps output almost worse than hitting with just light attacks for that duration.

Some time ago I made a suggestion about snipe.

Erlindur wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

I could go into Bows as well, Snipe cast time should go down in cast time when it gets maxed out, not a lot, maybe 2.5 sec instead of 3, and should have a longer range. Why do I get hit by normal attacks when I'm at snipe range if it's so great an ability? At this point, other than working with others to co-snipe something, there isn't really a reason to use Snipe over a heavy attack/light attack opening.

I mostly agree with your whole post. On snipe though, I have a suggestion.

Have the whole snipe mechanic work more or less like light/heavy attack combo. Press the key for less than 3 secs and you get snipe as it is. Press it , hold it and interesting stuff happens. After 3 secs pressing it, you no longer have a minimum range. It makes no sense losing an aimed shot when the target gets closer. Even better, while you are still pressing the key after the 3 secs, have it every second draw (for example) 200 extra from your stamina and add 10% (for example again) damage . You can hold it till all your stamina goes off. When you release, it goes off and does the final modified damage. You can have a great opener but at the cost of your stamina reserves when it goes off. You choose.

I soon realized that this will never happen due to the pvp balance cap. With that snipe, it would be easy to one shot someone. So, snipe is doomed to remain mediocre.

Unless of course, you stop limiting the damage output for pvp reasons and balance pvp with a different approach. Just give pvp players the means to counter that damage. A nice pvp passive in a strictly pvp tree, can solve that problem. In snipe's case, you can have a passive that limits damage taken from long ranges for example. That gives you more flexibility. Every time you tweak damage output in pve, you just have to tweak that passive as well to achieve pvp balance.

Lyall84

Eivar wrote: »

Lyall84 wrote: »

While I am happy that the developers are making improvements. I am going to post this from a different post I created just to see what people think seeing how we are on the topic of armor adjustments.

Here are the passives for each armor as they stand:

Light Armor
Evocation - Reduces Magicka cost of spells by 3% per piece of Light Armor equipped. Max bonus: 21%.
Recovery - Increases Magicka recovery by 4% per piece of Light Armor equipped. Max Bonus: 28%.
Spell Warding - Increases base Spell Resistance by 8% per piece of Light Armor equipped. Max bonus 32% (shows as the actual value in game, even though the character sheet does not show how much that value actually helps).
Prodigy - Grants 10% chance for spells to cause Critical Damage while a Light Armor set of 5 or more pieces is equipped.
Concentration - Player's spells ignore 6% of enemy Spell Resistance per piece of Light Armor equipped. Max bonus 42%.

Medium Armor
Dexterity - Increases Critical Strike chance with physical attacks by 3% per piece of Medium Armor equipped. Max bonus: 21%.
Wind Walker - Increases Stamina Recovery by 4% per piece of Medium Armor equipped. Max bonus: 28%.
Improved Sneak - Decreases the detection area size by 5% and the cost of sneaking by 7% per piece of Medium Armor equipped. Max bonus 35% detection area decrease, 49% Sneak cost decrease.
Agility - Increases attack speed by 10% when a Medium Armor set of 5 or more pieces is equipped.
Athletics - Increases sprint move speed by 3% and decreases the stamina cost of roll dodge by 4% per piece of Medium Armor equipped. Max bonus 21% Sprint speed, 28% dodge roll reduction.

Heavy Armor
Resolve - Increases Armor by 3% and base Spell Resist by 3% for each piece of Heavy Armor equipped. Max bonus 21% Armor, 21% Spell Resist (shows as the actual value in game, even though the character sheet does not show how much that value actually helps).
Constitution - Increases Health Recovery by 4% per piece of Heavy Armor equipped. Max bonus 28%.
Juggernaut - Increases Weapon Damage with melee attacks by 1% per piece of Heavy Armor equipped. Max bonus 7%.
Bracing - Decreases cost of blocking by 20% when a Heavy Armor set of 5 or more pieces is equipped.
Rapid Mending - Increases healing received by 1% per piece of Heavy Armor equipped. Max bonus 7%.

If you look at these, for the most part they follow a pattern:

First Passive - Increases efficiency of the general role based on the armor type, Light reduces magicka cost, Heavy reduces received damage(the armor increase should be a little more in my opinion, 6% instead of just 3%), Medium increases critical chance?...This is where I have an issue. Stamina is, for every role, a defensive resource, so for medium armor using weapon skills it is also their offensive as well as defensive resource. So why does medium armor not reduce stamina cost of spells and abilities. Dexterity needs to be changed to reflect that, so stamina abilities can be used with the same efficiency as magicka ones. They are adding the 2% per piece for 14% total to Wind Walker, when they should remove the critical from Dexterity to 3% stamina reduction per piece (for those screaming about the weapon skill reductions, first, magicka does not have to use its primary resource for CC break, second, hold your breath because I will get to that in a minute).

Second Passive - Increases Magicka, Stamina, and Health recovery respectively. Fits the pattern across the board. Here is where I would make one change though, for the heavy armor wearing, this is where the increased healing received should be, and it should keep the same percentages, ie, 4% per piece for 28% max healing received. My though process on this has changed from my other post because after hearing more and more heavy armor users complaining about how they do not have enough resource generation, I realize they need a boost, but I feel that giving them resource generation is against the concept of the armor. Heavy armor is suppose to last long enough that you can afford to regenerate magicka and stamina slower. This would be a sizable boost in healing, making tanks more tanky. If this % needs to be tweaked down to not make tanks overpowered, then it would be easy to change it to 2% or 3% per piece.

Third Passive - Because Light is pointed down the direction of casters (DPS or healing, not directly taking damage) this is a defensive passive (opposite of the rest of the passives for this skill line), increase spell resist, that way they do not take as much damage from other casters behind the enemy lines, or from AOE during PvE encounters. Because Heavy is pointed down the direction of tanks, this is an offensive passive (opposite for said reasons above), increases damage with melee weapons, so they can play a DPS role or a PvP tank role and still dish out some damge...though the 7% is weak, it should be 2% per piece for 14% total, this only effects melee damage, therefore weapon skills, not class skills. This should also be changed to effect other weapon skills (bows and staffs). This will help even the balance of how much damage a tank can dish out. Because Medium is geared towards melee DPS (or bow for ranged), it increases sneak efficiency...wait...this is only good out of combat or prior to the fight starting, so, more of an offensive boost. This is where Athletics needs to be. Move Athletics down here so it can act as a real defensive boost for Medium Armor, increased sprint and reduced dodge cost, especially seeing how stamina is pulling double duty in this tree. This reduction of sneak cost and detection should be removed completely from medium armor (before calling me a traitor, or going off the walls about sneaky sneaky, I have a better balanced suggestion for this too).

Fourth Passive - 5 set bonuses, each one is good, each one applies to the stereotype for the armor. This follows the pattern of light is caster, medium is weapons, and heavy is tank. Maybe the bonus on each set needs to be increased by 50% to make the set feel more important? Not sure

Fifth Passive - HUGE DPS increase for Light Armor, ignore 42% of enemy spell resistance? Unless your enemy is also wearing Light Armor, that will crush the amount of damage offered by the increased critical chance offered by medium armor, not to mention unless they change how critical works (I feel they should just combine spell and weapon critical and just have critical, change out one of the critical blocks on the character screen to critical magnitude, show us how much more our critical damage hits for, be it from passives, weapon traits or mundus stones) light armor can make up for that critical with mage light morph. So they can have the critical and the spell penetration. Medium armor...yeah, this is where your defensive passive is instead of where it is compared to the rest of the armors pattern of passives. Athletics needs to be moved to where improved sneak is, and a new passive to add armor penetration needs to be added here, with the same % as spell penetration that light armor gets. This passive difference is the biggest reason for the disparity between light magicka and medium stamina builds DPS in both PvP and PvE. The reduction of costs being a close second. Heavy armor, increased healing here right now, but this is where I would put their health regeneration just because of the % benefit I would assign to it. I would match the same 6% per piece that light, and my suggestion for medium would give. Giving heavy armor 6% health regeneration per piece for 42% total increase. Health regeneration is already base lower than the other two, and this should be a big enough increase for tanks to actually notice their health go up.

My end suggested passives:

Light Armor
Evocation - Reduces Magicka cost of spells by 3% per piece of Light Armor equipped. Max bonus: 21%.
Recovery - Increases Magicka recovery by 4% per piece of Light Armor equipped. Max Bonus: 28%.
Spell Warding - Increases base Spell Resistance by 8% per piece of Light Armor equipped. Max bonus 32% (shows as the actual value in game, even though the character sheet does not show how much that value actually helps).
Prodigy - Grants 10% chance for spells to cause Critical Damage while a Light Armor set of 5 or more pieces is equipped.
Concentration - Player's spells ignore 6% of enemy Spell Resistance per piece of Light Armor equipped. Max bonus 42%.

Medium Armor
Dexterity - Reduces Stamina cost of abilities by 3% per piece of Light Armor equipped. Max bonus: 21%.
Wind Walker - Increases Stamina Recovery by 4% per piece of Medium Armor equipped. Max bonus: 28%.
Athletics - Increases sprint move speed by 3% and decreases the stamina cost of roll dodge by 4% per piece of Medium Armor equipped. Max bonus 21% Sprint speed, 28% dodge roll reduction.
Agility - Increases attack speed by 10% when a Medium Armor set of 5 or more pieces is equipped.
Weapon Master - Player's abilities ignore 6% of enemy Armor per piece of Medium Armor equipped. Max bonus 42%

Heavy Armor
Resolve - Increases Armor by 6% and base Spell Resist by 3% for each piece of Heavy Armor equipped. Max bonus 42% Armor, 21% Spell Resist (shows as the actual value in game, even though the character sheet does not show how much that value actually helps).
Rapid Mending - Increases healing received by 4% per piece of Heavy Armor equipped. Max bonus 28%.
Juggernaut - Increases Weapon Damage with attacks by 2% per piece of Heavy Armor equipped. Max bonus 14%.
Bracing - Decreases cost of blocking by 20% when a Heavy Armor set of 5 or more pieces is equipped.
Constitution - Increases Health Recovery by 6% per piece of Heavy Armor equipped. Max bonus 42%.

Now about the two issues I asked people to wait for regarding weapon skill cost reduction passives and sneak passives.

First, change all the weapon skill reduction passives from 10%/20% stamina reduction to the following:

Decreases stamina costs and increases ability damage by 5%/10%.

That does two things, it would still give stamina a much needed stamina reduction, and also give them a moderate damage boost to make up for the fact that they are (for the most part) melee abilities.

Second, I suggested we remove sneak stamina reduction and sneak detection radius passives from medium armor. The sneak cost reduction belongs on the "well-fitted" armor trait in addition to the sprint. It should reduce both sprint and sneak. That way you can have your sneaky mages, or sneaky knights in addition to your sneaky rogues. Give players the choice to craft their gear sneaky or not.

As for the detection radius, keep that out of the game until Thief Guild and Dark Brotherhood are introduced. They are going to need passives like sneak detection reduction in their skill lines to match up with who they are.

Now the problem becomes where do medium armor wearer get the crit they'll need to be competitive dpsers? Though i have got to say I had overlooked the issue with the lack of armor penetration, though assigning it to medium armor seems a bit out of place, it seems like that would fit better as a weapon passive.

With my changes medium armor would have armor pen instead of critical to make up the damage the same way light has spell pen. I would also like to see spell and weapon critical combined into one stat. That way light would only have a 10% critical over any other armor type, and mage light would give a boost to either. Leaving most of the critical to be gained from the Thief Mundus stone.

Trayyacakes

Ok firstly, thank you for coming forward with this information and giving us something. K now that that is out of the way I'm going to try and civilly list my problems.

Everyone who plays this game picked a class, some of us have many classes, and we picked that class for a reason. Some picked DKs to use fire, NBs to be sneaky rougues, sorcs to be nuke lightning mages, or templars to be healers. I realize some people picked their class for reason's not listed above, and that is one of the great things about this game. There is a "chance" for diversity. I think it is awesome that a ranged NB mage is viable. I think its terrible that it is the only Viable NB spec. There is a point here I promise. All the class build skills are use magicka. This is a design choice, and it was a good one, considering all the resources that pull from stamina. A problem I have is that increasing Magicka is the ONLY way to get the most out of these abilities. Why can't your class abilities damage be tied to either the highest of your 2 resource pools(stamina and magicka) or a combination of the 2? I should not have to cap only magicka to do more damage with a CLASS skill.

I also believe adding stamina cost reduction to all stamina abilities isn't the way to go for medium armor. We have cost reduction on every weapon line. Some of those passives are broken, and some/most weapon skills that use stamina just cost too much, balance that separately. What I would like to see on medium armor is a cost reduction to all non weapon stamina skills, and all class skills. Another Idea I have and really like is to have a medium armor passive which causes all crits to restore a percent of max stamina. This would give some synergy to the armor line.

As far as weapon lines go when compared to staves, they all suck. The damage is too low, and too many mobs are immune to bleeds. I also don't understand why there are so many dots in this game. I only have 5 slots for skills. There should be more "filler attacks" while we have dots active.

Also what would be the problem with the cost for Dodge roll, blocking, and cc break being reduced as your stamina pool increases? I think this would help a lot.

Combining spell crit and weapon crit would also go a long way, and should be seriously thought about. If this happen a nerf to medium armors crit chance would have to occur, but I think this would be acceptable.

Now heavy armor. Those that say Heavy armor can't have do the same amount of damage due to the survival that is not entirely correct. They can have SUSTAINED damage and survival. They CAN'T have burst. reason being if I charge into a mob of people in heavy armor, They will kill me before I can kill random joe through random bob's healer because with their burst they will kill me through my mitigation, So you have to find ways to increase heavy armor's sustained without increasing there burst. A good start to this would be changing Juggernaut to increase ALL damage by X% per piece. There should be no crit increase on the armor to keep it away from burst. Ultimate gain should be passively increased from heavy armor because HA users won't be getting the crits that the other armor wearers won't get. The other thing that would have to be done with heavy armor is some form of resource management. You could increase the regen of stam and magicka on the armor by 1% per piece, not sure if that would cut it or not by itself though.

Lyall84

Sakiri wrote: »

Lyall84 wrote: »

Mortosk wrote: »

Lyall84 wrote: »

Mortosk wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Denaia wrote: »

I forget to add it in my first post; what is going to happen for us heavy armor-dps users? As it is decent enough to use, but certainly not as good as using medium (after changes) or light armor. I would like to see heavy armor becoming a bit more viable for those who wish to melee-dps with it.

We're looking at ways we can improve the Heavy Armor skill line as well.

Can start by making it actually mitigate damage. Then, if you're giving Medium 14% max stamina regen/reduction, why not give Heavy 7% max magicka and 7% max stamina regen/reduction.

Go for the increase in mitigation and survival first. See how that plays out before screaming for regen. You have to be careful about keeping the balance. Everyone wants their armor type or play style to be the best, but that is unreasonable.

I thought it was a pretty reasonable suggestion.

Light armor gets pure +Magicka regen/reduction
Medium armor gets pure +Stamina regen/reduction
Heavy armor should get half the regen/reduction of each.

That makes all 3 armor types unique and equal when it comes to resource management.

Heavy armor is already set up to be, and has been in other TES games, the health stat set. Not the stamina and magicka set.

Edit, it just needs a little boost.

Needs more than a little.

All the health in the world isn't going to do anything when health recovery rate sucks and might as well not exist, and when VR mobs hit you as if you're not wearing armor at all.

Increased armor and SPELL RESIST (this is a big one),

Did you see where armor and spell resist don't do jack to reduce incoming damage?

And on top of it, you can cap your armor and spell resist in light armor. Fairly easily too. You get *more* spell resist in light armor.

Until they make armor rating worth having, wear a dress and save your breath.

xaraan wrote: »

Nice to see some changes, but far from enough.

Snipe - reducing range - really?? It needed a slight increase actually, many regular class spells have the same range, without cast time, and as much or more damage, plus some have things like knockdown on top of it. I can hit people sniping at me with a standard attack from a resto staff.

Do you know what really makes light armor better than medium? It's not just cost reduction, it's spell penetration. Why use a poison arrow that does 350 damage against full armor, when I can use a spell for more damage and get past 47% of their spell resistance.

That on top of the variety offered by all magicka, if I mix staff powers with class powers they all do extra damage from my stamina build. If I mix class powers with weapon powers on a stamina build, the class powers do crap for damage.

There is a lot more going on problem wise than what you are tinkering with.

I don't know of a single class ability with a range as far as Snipe's range.

Everything is set at 28 meters. Snipe was like what, 35 with a morph to extend it?

VR mobs ignoring armor is a different issue entirely. I agree, they need to be adjusted so it actually matters what armor you are wearing when they hit you, but that is more an issue with the mobs, not the armor. I am going to have to double check, but I think I take less damage from VR11 mobs in craiglorn than I do from the VR9 mobs in Malabar Tor. That leads me to think that pre-craiglorn VR mobs have some ridiculous, close to 90%, armor and spell penetration that they really should not have.

Eivar

Lyall84 wrote: »

With my changes medium armor would have armor pen instead of critical to make up the damage the same way light has spell pen. I would also like to see spell and weapon critical combined into one stat. That way light would only have a 10% critical over any other armor type, and mage light would give a boost to either. Leaving most of the critical to be gained from the Thief Mundus stone.

The issue with that though is that you are cutting 15-21% crit out of melee builds that way, and as someone else said, in PvE armor and spell pen are somewhat minimal in effect. To make them worthwhile they'd have to revamp mob stats across the board to rebalance their health with real armor and spell resist stats......and that's just not going to happen.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

@‌ZOS_JessicaFolsom
This is one interesting step towards the right direction, but still a small step at this point.

Let me take an example so as to illustrate the exact issue we have with a stamina build. I'm DK, wearing a full leather armor set, with one hand and a shield and dual wield.

My one hand and a shield bar, in a raid group for AvA combat:

• Flame Lash (used to finish off fleeing enemies)
• Fragmented Shield (a very nice tool in AvA)
• Coagulating Blood (sometimes useful when holding the line)
• Shielded Assault (to charge the enemies in an assault)
• Choking Talons (to immobilize the enemies)

My Dual Wield bar, in a raid group for AvA combat:

• Blinding Flurry (used against NPC guards, rarely on players)
• Burning Breath (used to decrease the armor of the enemies)
• Volcanic Rune (a very nice CC tool in AvA)
• Steel Tornado (to finish off wounded enemies)
• Igneous Weapons (damage buff)

The one hand and a shield bar is used to hold the line; the dual wield bar is used to counter attack the enemy raid.

Can you see the issue? Well, let me help you:

1. In the first bar, there are 4 magicka based skills, and only one stamina based skill
2. In the second bar, there are 3 magicka based skills, and 2 stamina based skills
3. The most important skills for my role in the raid are magicka based, with the exception of Tornado Steel.
4. Only one skill in my bars takes a real advantage of my stamina build: Tornado Steel.

The end of the story:
The other DKs of my guild are playing with a one and a shield bar and a destruction staff bar, with a full set of light armor, and are out performing me, for obvious reasons.

In a hope this little example will help your teams to better understand the issue

Thank you very much for this thoughtful and detailed break-down @trimsic_ESO. We'll make sure the team in charge of balance sees it.

Actually this sums ups what's wrong with this entire 'balance' process .. it's driven by endless PVP QQ with little to no consideration for the MAJORITY of your players who don't PVP and whose PVE in repeatedly screwed around with to pander to them: I'm not saying his post is QQ, it's not, but it's one of the few PVP posts that aren't.

His post iis however entirely from a PVP perspective yet that's what you're going to pass to your 'team' for them to implement.

Others have posted some PVE views which you've totally ignored, you certainly haven't passed those on it seems.

Eivar

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

@‌ZOS_JessicaFolsom
This is one interesting step towards the right direction, but still a small step at this point.

Let me take an example so as to illustrate the exact issue we have with a stamina build. I'm DK, wearing a full leather armor set, with one hand and a shield and dual wield.

My one hand and a shield bar, in a raid group for AvA combat:

• Flame Lash (used to finish off fleeing enemies)
• Fragmented Shield (a very nice tool in AvA)
• Coagulating Blood (sometimes useful when holding the line)
• Shielded Assault (to charge the enemies in an assault)
• Choking Talons (to immobilize the enemies)

My Dual Wield bar, in a raid group for AvA combat:

• Blinding Flurry (used against NPC guards, rarely on players)
• Burning Breath (used to decrease the armor of the enemies)
• Volcanic Rune (a very nice CC tool in AvA)
• Steel Tornado (to finish off wounded enemies)
• Igneous Weapons (damage buff)

The one hand and a shield bar is used to hold the line; the dual wield bar is used to counter attack the enemy raid.

Can you see the issue? Well, let me help you:

1. In the first bar, there are 4 magicka based skills, and only one stamina based skill
2. In the second bar, there are 3 magicka based skills, and 2 stamina based skills
3. The most important skills for my role in the raid are magicka based, with the exception of Tornado Steel.
4. Only one skill in my bars takes a real advantage of my stamina build: Tornado Steel.

The end of the story:
The other DKs of my guild are playing with a one and a shield bar and a destruction staff bar, with a full set of light armor, and are out performing me, for obvious reasons.

In a hope this little example will help your teams to better understand the issue

Thank you very much for this thoughtful and detailed break-down @trimsic_ESO. We'll make sure the team in charge of balance sees it.

Actually this sums ups what's wrong with this entire 'balance' process .. it's driven by endless PVP QQ with little to no consideration for the MAJORITY of your players who don't PVP and whose PVE in repeatedly screwed around with to pander to them: I'm not saying his post is QQ, it's not, but it's one of the few PVP posts that aren't.

His post iis however entirely from a PVP perspective yet that's what you're going to pass to your 'team' for them to implement.

Others have posted some PVE views which you've totally ignored, you certainly haven't passed those on it seems.

FYI just because they're going to read it doesn't mean they'll implement it, they'll simply take it into consideration.

Xupacabra

As a stamina build user with heavy armour i left my comment here, changes are good for start but will not have any impact in the game feeling, it just litle numbers that change.
I can add that uppercut is a skill to use in 1 vs 1 and after you are in rank fights its minimum the times you engage 1 mob per combat and that one time is more often with little boses that are imune for the cc.
I really hope to see better improvements about stamina builds.

ps: i have also the werewolf skill line that is directly related with this topic, i hope they dont forget this because that skill line is completly ignored for me now.

TRIP233

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

@‌ZOS_JessicaFolsom
This is one interesting step towards the right direction, but still a small step at this point.

Let me take an example so as to illustrate the exact issue we have with a stamina build. I'm DK, wearing a full leather armor set, with one hand and a shield and dual wield.

My one hand and a shield bar, in a raid group for AvA combat:

• Flame Lash (used to finish off fleeing enemies)
• Fragmented Shield (a very nice tool in AvA)
• Coagulating Blood (sometimes useful when holding the line)
• Shielded Assault (to charge the enemies in an assault)
• Choking Talons (to immobilize the enemies)

My Dual Wield bar, in a raid group for AvA combat:

• Blinding Flurry (used against NPC guards, rarely on players)
• Burning Breath (used to decrease the armor of the enemies)
• Volcanic Rune (a very nice CC tool in AvA)
• Steel Tornado (to finish off wounded enemies)
• Igneous Weapons (damage buff)

The one hand and a shield bar is used to hold the line; the dual wield bar is used to counter attack the enemy raid.

Can you see the issue? Well, let me help you:

1. In the first bar, there are 4 magicka based skills, and only one stamina based skill
2. In the second bar, there are 3 magicka based skills, and 2 stamina based skills
3. The most important skills for my role in the raid are magicka based, with the exception of Tornado Steel.
4. Only one skill in my bars takes a real advantage of my stamina build: Tornado Steel.

The end of the story:
The other DKs of my guild are playing with a one and a shield bar and a destruction staff bar, with a full set of light armor, and are out performing me, for obvious reasons.

In a hope this little example will help your teams to better understand the issue

Thank you very much for this thoughtful and detailed break-down @trimsic_ESO. We'll make sure the team in charge of balance sees it.

As all of that was insightful for the play style and ability's that the person uses. What I read is: It's a resource issue. Some people, (me included) use both resources. I have two magicka abuilties and two stamina ability's that I use on my first bar. My other bar is for support. It's all magicka, but I have to use Heavy armor because I need the healing buffs, (I'm a vampire). I use Song of Lemae and Ashin Grip for my special armor. Song for the healing, and Ashin because I need all the attack help I can get because of the resource management.

Ashin Grip only works on melee attacks, so I have it on my One handed weapon. I suppose I could put it on my shield.. but it doesn't matter.. I have the three piece minimum for it, and the 5 piece maximum for Song of Lemae. I have most of my gear enchanted with magicka runes. Only three of them are Health runes. I have three resiste fire enchantments. Two rings and neckles, with magicka enchantments, they came with the unchangable enchantments.

What I'm getting at is... I stocked up on magicka runes because stamina seems to do little good although I have ability's that require it, and I can't use light armor because I need the healing buffs from the heavy armor.

Cogo

This is a really good discussion! Ideas, suggestions, good base info for peoples views. I got a few ideas about my own build from this discussion!

Oghur happy!

I just want to add something. It is important that we help Zenimax Balance, yes.

But, one thing concerned me, when someone said they will switch weapon, because another weapon would be a little more effective.......

Lets not loose the identity of your char, because of stats?
Should not people choose what they feel suits them, and not the weapon that is 1% better then others?

Is not that what ESO is about as well? You building your build/class, exactly how you want?

Cogo

Sakiri wrote: »

Increased armor and SPELL RESIST (this is a big one),

Did you see where armor and spell resist don't do jack to reduce incoming damage?

And on top of it, you can cap your armor and spell resist in light armor. Fairly easily too. You get *more* spell resist in light armor.

Until they make armor rating worth having, wear a dress and save your breath.

I have been following this thread, and I do noticed that you seam to be VERY right about effects, stats and what everything really do. I respect that a lot.


Even if there are "better" builds out there, I am doing alright. Tanked Vet dungeons with my guild friends. I am 100% sure that you are correct, but if it works for me, and I enjoy my role with heavy armor, should not that be enough?


I KNOW other tanks does better then me. But as long as I do my job in groups. And have the build I feel connected too, isn't that "worth" having?


Regarding the stamina use, since I got to vet level and I DID notice that my stamina was going down far more then 1-50.
I still manage to use my stamina abilities. It was just harder then 1-50, which I expect it to be. I had to adapt.....and wipe quite a bit, before I got better.

I dare to say, that the past few days, doing a lot of tanking in groups, have made me a better tank, since I had to control my stamina use and when to use the different stamina abilities much more carefully.

Regarding if spell resist or anything else is not working as intended, I trust Zenimax to fix/balance this. So that is not a concern for me.


I do not mean that if a skill is not working as intended, or unbalanced, that we should not report it and Zenimax not look at it.

My point is, if what I do works, does it matter if someone else does it better?

OkieDokie

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Can you see the issue? Well, let me help you:

1. In the first bar, there are 4 magicka based skills, and only one stamina based skill
2. In the second bar, there are 3 magicka based skills, and 2 stamina based skills
3. The most important skills for my role in the raid are magicka based, with the exception of Tornado Steel.
4. Only one skill in my bars takes a real advantage of my stamina build: Tornado Steel.

I'm convinced that class skills > weapon skills by design (class structure). If that is correct, there is no issue at all. If it isn't, there is no way of solving it without rewriting a lot of this game (unlikely to happen).

I wish this could be confirmed or denied by devs, because it changes significantly the discussions about stamina builds. I mean, are we aiming for it to be even with magicka or for better resource management of a secondary damage source? It is quite different.

ps: as I said, I think the idea of class skill > weapon skill is correct, so I see this improvement as a really good one.

ArRashid

When is this going to arrive? 1.2? 1.3? I'm curious, really. I want those changes right now, but at the same time I want more (and better) changes, because aside from medium armor and snipe buffs, it's not nearly enough.

At least Volley needs a damage buff to get AT LEAST on par with other similar AoEs (like Wall of Elements - Blockade of Fire deals 57% more damage than arrow barrage, over pretty much the same time period, while being a lot faster to use.. and without having a minimum range)

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

Magicka users don't really need much Block, Dodge, Stun, CC Break.

You get Self Heals, Buffs and Crowd Control yourself.[/quote]

HAHAHAHA ha ha, cough, throw up. can we please take into account that this is an mmo not mortal combat. we fight TOGETHER in groups, lets not cripple our allies. if you want your healer not to ever dodge block or break, just to improve your non-existant one v one capability, you have absolutely no concept of teamwork.
As a healer it is critical for me to carefully manage the little stamina I have for Block, Dodge, CC Break so that i can stay alive long enought to do my job and help everyone else be more survivable. if magic users had 0 stamina they would never complete vr content.

Awe

Reducing snipe range? are you joking?
2 sec cast and range lower than many instant cast abilities?
Yes, great move to make stamina build more attractive, delete usefull skill!
It is only skill that has longer range than siege NPCs, with 2 sec cast it becomes absolutely useless.

By vr12 bow-medium armor templar, that will have to change weapon/armor used if you continue to produce such stamina based improvements

and venom arrow dot improvement is a joke too (though i must be glad, that it's not nerfing at least the skill)
i have on it 231 damage(instant cast) +155 dot, which makes around 30 damage ticks every 2 sec, adding 15 damage in 2 sec is awesome! (sarcasm)

Tobiz

Maybe its a good change, 14% lower costs.
At least sticks'n'dresses wont benefit from it, and do be careful not to give those dresses an OP stam dump as well.

Im possibly a bit naive but Id like to hear how the devs reason when they pull these things out of their hat. A dev blog talking about how they thought and why they believe this is the best change. Obviously not for every little change, but the over all picture of intended gameplay. Like the AMA and the Q&A but for patches.

Imo the problem with stamina is the synergies between armor - weapon - abilities - gear and the survivability of a stamina based character. All melee synergies are highly situational whereas the magicka synergies are one size fits all.

Id rather see synergies like the stick wielder has, like heavy resto staff attack gives back 10% magicka. That is insanely good and benefits a destro staff user as well. A stamina build is hard pressed to have 2 weapons supplement each other this way today there is the 2h for the stam regen on a kill.

Armor sets. Some for medium or heavy perhaps that works and aren't on a minute or higher cooldown? How about one that has a chance to give back 10% magicka every 5 seconds on melee hits!

Armor caps are the same for all armor types. The armor rating does what its supposed to but its should mitigate more specifically physical damage. Heavy should have more spell resist.
Why Light armor has more then 50% spell resist I cannot fathom.
Whats your logic?

No armor piece is required for use of the armor skills. Uhm why? Add a "While having 4 or more pieces equipped" critera.

Cross skillline synergies are non existant for stamina builds.
Think Might of the Guild, Magicka Controller, Equilibrium, Mage Light et.c. but for melee stamina.
Warewolf. lol. Would be great for synergies except I dont want to be a warewolf, even if it was working. Highly situational and cost a ultimate slot.
Fighters guild only applies against daedra and undead. Highly situational. This would be the best choice for fixing this. Remove the "against daedra" and the synergies are there. Then buff them.

There are no (adequate) synergies to ultimate abilities with a stam build. Flawless dawnbreaker is good but some versatility here would be nice. Warewolf, dont know how broken it is, I only see the forum posts. Id rather not be a warewolf though.
All Dragonknight ultimates has a logical connection to stamina rather then magicka. (Standar, armor, Leap) but then the Sticks would cry.
Are there reasons for this?

Dual wield passives are quite poor and situational.
Damage against disabled targets? Bosses arent disabled, if I stun its because I want to nuke the other target so that I can focus interrupts and blocks.
What are your thoughts of use here?

Physical dots dont stack (Ive heard, have not tested). Make physical dots stack and make them stronger.
Or is this intended?

I imagine that melee fights are higher risk due to metal in the face and PB AOE
Melee fights are meant to be longer due tothe mechanics of mobility block interrupt and crowd control with aoe executes.
But this is not how it works today with so low damage that jumping between targets just gets you killed so I have no idea what to expect or if suggestions are in line with how you think.

I think we actually need to know what the intended gameplay for melee combat is in order to see what needs to be done with it.
Some calculations for clarification would be nice too, since we must have been so wrong all this time.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

frogprincess_q4 wrote: »

As a medium armour NB, I'm pretty excited by these changes. Maybe I'll even be able to survive PvP for more than 30 seconds.

However, my biggest Medium Armour problem is that as a crafter and as a player that is permanently overlevelled, I am constantly having trouble sourcing the next level of medium armour crafting mats.

Atm I am level 46 with half of Reaper's March to go, so I need fell hide. There is NO fell hide to be had and I can't go to the next area for some. Maybe I can get some in Cyrodiil, but as I am so overlevelled already I'm just trying to get quests done before I outlevel them completely. Half of my journal is already greyed out.

I have trouble sourcing Medium Armour mats every single time I level into the next type. It's so sad

its not meant for you to have a stack before you even reach the next level tier. your armor pre vet is pretty inconsequential and so is your pvp potential until you level up a bit. at vet you use the same tier for a very long time and will be overflowing with matts if you dont go powerlevel. also, if your overleveled for a zone you hardly need the best armor the next zone can offer.