Improvements for Stamina-Based Skills and Passives
Update 46 is now available for testing on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/676209
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Lyall84✭✭✭✭Ok, if they want to be a "pure" staminers - so be it!
Medium armor - +3% magicka cost per piece of Medium armor equipped
Heavy armor - +1% magicka cost per piece of Heavy armor equipped
Fair? Yes.
Only if you add that same increased cost to stamina (including roll, block, and CC break) to light armor. Then it would be fair.6 -
Eivar✭✭✭✭You even didn't understand what you are talking!
I'm praying for turning all of this dodging etc into the magicka cost! Because as a mage I have a tons of magicka.
But you all, staminers, didn't understand that fact what every mage lost all of it's stamina after 2nd CCbreak!
You're making assumptions, I know what you've said I simply disagree.
Btw roll dodge costs a base % not a static number, same as cc break. So after a 2nd cc break a stamina based dps is also out of stamina, only a magicka based dps can continue to dps, personally I mix light and medium and use a combo of magicka and stamina based skills, but being a purely stamina build should be a viable option as full on magicka is a viable option.2 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭You even didn't understand what you are talking!
I'm praying for turning all of this dodging etc into the magicka cost! Because as a mage I have a tons of magicka.
But you all, staminers, didn't understand that fact what every mage lost all of it's stamina after 2nd CCbreak!
Yeah, see, that's the problem.
As a mage, you have tons of Magicka, and that's fine.
As a non-Mage, we -don't- have tons of Stamina; that's less fine. But, if Stamina reduction can reduce how quickly we consume our limited pools of Stamina, that'd be great.
No one is saying to nerf Mages.
We'd just like to be on a similar playing field with our resource of choice.
"As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?3 -
I'm personally agree with all, over this: Just want to say: WHAT?
Every single stamina weapon already have 20% reduction in the passives, so you granting them 14% more?
Just a 34% cost reduction for weapon skills?
The game becomes [snip]...
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]
Congratulations you failed at Maths...2 -
Shaun98ca2 wrote: »Who do you think is gonna be the 1st idiot to complain Light Armor gets a 3% cost reduction per item versus Mediums 2% per? lol
seeing you get a 20% reduciton already from the weapon lines i think you would be right.1 -
Shaun98ca2✭✭✭✭✭dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »
seeing you get a 20% reduciton already from the weapon lines i think you would be right.
MEH people also said I was the 1st to complain. I didn't complain but MEH whatever.
I will say I WAS entirely taken by surprise by the cost reduction and I 100% hope it applies to Block, Dodge, Stun, CC Break as that is TRULY needed for the Stamina based builds.
They may not out DPS but by god they will survive. lol1 -
Lyall84✭✭✭✭you are not sure, just talking, right?
So let the staves will get reduction passives, at least for 10%
Sure, sounds good on the staves...but as far as skill line reductions, I never said that I was unsure, in fact I am sure that I even linked them to you personally in other threads.
Mage guild: reduction of 8% and 15%
Sorcerer: Storm Calling: reduction of 5% and 10%
Then there are several others that reduce both stamina and magicka, so benefits both. Also several abilities that restore magicka vs reduce the cost, have the same end effect, but different mechanic. So left those off the list.
Volcanic Rune mage guild ability is one of the most powerful and effective abilities in pvp right now. That gets a 36% magicka cost reduction.
Heaven forbid if stamina gets more than 20% for just one skill line.
You are also forgetting the shear number of skill points you are talking about. Light armor spends 3, gets 21% reduction...and that effects EVERYTHING.
Stamina? Right now we get nothing. But 2 skill points per weapon for 20% for just that skill. So to get that full 20% across all weapons it is 8 skill points.
Not to forget that the light armor applies to all magicka abilities. Meanwhile, fighter's guild and armor abilities get no reduction.
In your mind it is fair that light armor has to spend 3 points to get 21% reduction while stamina has to spend 8? For all the extra points required stamina deserves the extra increase in reduction.
With this new change, assuming only one weapon type, stamina users will still have to spend 4 points to get that 34% reduction vs the 3 points for 21% reduction.
Further more, stamina has to still use stamina for defense for rolling, blocking and CC break.
Lastly, before you bring up nonsense about magicka users having to have defense heals, they still can block, roll, cc break to use their stamina. Stamina cant use magicka to do that, and if they clog up their bars with heals (which are tremendously gimped compared to magicka builds both in cost and heal effect vs roll costs are the same and cc break is cheaper for magicka builds) where are they going to put there stamina abilities?
If you are playing a light armor, magicka build, you have no reason to object for any type of change that may lead to another play style being brought up to equal footing.
If you claim that they are in equal footing already, why are 75% of people using light and magicka builds in both PvE and PvP?
Simple, they are not balanced.7 -
Lyall84✭✭✭✭You even didn't understand what you are talking!
I'm praying for turning all of this dodging etc into the magicka cost! Because as a mage I have a tons of magicka.
But you all, staminers, didn't understand that fact what every mage lost all of it's stamina after 2nd CCbreak!
Actually, it is you that doesn't understand.
That is everyone, CC break is 30% of max stamina. Not a set number. That way magicka or stamina gets the same rate of breaking. Otherwise every pvp build would be stamina, for more CC breaks.Edited by Lyall84 on June 21, 2014 1:05AM1 -
ZOS_JessicaFolsomCommunity ManagerFolks, we understand that everyone would like to see changes made to their preferred armor type or weapon immediately. Voicing disappointment that what you're looking for improvements to wasn't mentioned in an update post is totally fair, but we ask that you please understand that balance changes are part of an ongoing, never-ending effort and we implement them carefully and in small steps.
We will continue to do our very best to keep you updated on what is coming, and what we're working toward.Edited by ZOS_JessicaFolsom on June 21, 2014 1:11AM18 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »Folks, we understand that everyone would like to see changes made to their preferred armor type or weapon immediately. Voicing disappointment that what you're looking for improvements to wasn't mentioned in an update post is totally fair, but we ask that you please understand that balance changes are part of an ongoing, never-ending effort and we implement them carefully and in small steps.
We will continue to do our very best to keep you updated on what is coming, and what we're working toward.
Unfair, do my thing first. :P"As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?7 -
trimsic_ESO✭✭✭✭✭@ZOS_JessicaFolsom
This is one interesting step towards the right direction, but still a small step at this point.
Let me take an example so as to illustrate the exact issue we have with a stamina build. I'm DK, wearing a full leather armor set, with one hand and a shield and dual wield.
My one hand and a shield bar, in a raid group for AvA combat:- Flame Lash (used to finish off fleeing enemies)
- Fragmented Shield (a very nice tool in AvA)
- Coagulating Blood (sometimes useful when holding the line)
- Shielded Assault (to charge the enemies in an assault)
- Choking Talons (to immobilize the enemies)
My Dual Wield bar, in a raid group for AvA combat:- Blinding Flurry (used against NPC guards, rarely on players)
- Burning Breath (used to decrease the armor of the enemies)
- Volcanic Rune (a very nice CC tool in AvA)
- Steel Tornado (to finish off wounded enemies)
- Igneous Weapons (damage buff)
The one hand and a shield bar is used to hold the line; the dual wield bar is used to counter attack the enemy raid.
Can you see the issue? Well, let me help you:- In the first bar, there are 4 magicka based skills, and only one stamina based skill
- In the second bar, there are 3 magicka based skills, and 2 stamina based skills
- The most important skills for my role in the raid are magicka based, with the exception of Tornado Steel.
- Only one skill in my bars takes a real advantage of my stamina build: Tornado Steel.
The end of the story:
The other DKs of my guild are playing with a one and a shield bar and a destruction staff bar, with a full set of light armor, and are out performing me, for obvious reasons.
In a hope this little example will help your teams to better understand the issue
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Hocofaisan✭✭trimsic_ESO wrote: »@ZOS_JessicaFolsom
This is one interesting step towards the right direction, but still a small step at this point.
Let me take an example so as to illustrate the exact issue we have with a stamina build. I'm DK, wearing a full leather armor set, with one hand and a shield and dual wield.
SNIP
In a hope this little example will help your teams to better understand the issue
Pretty much agree with this wholeheartedly.
I want to add, I had canclled my sub due to the stamina inbalances.
Due to this post I am reupping for 1 month. Keep it up.
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Lyall84✭✭✭✭ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »Folks, we understand that everyone would like to see changes made to their preferred armor type or weapon immediately. Voicing disappointment that what you're looking for improvements to wasn't mentioned in an update post is totally fair, but we ask that you please understand that balance changes are part of an ongoing, never-ending effort and we implement them carefully and in small steps.
We will continue to do our very best to keep you updated on what is coming, and what we're working toward.
Your patience seems immeasurable.
/applaud1 -
ZOS_JessicaFolsomCommunity Managertrimsic_ESO wrote: »@ZOS_JessicaFolsom
This is one interesting step towards the right direction, but still a small step at this point.
Let me take an example so as to illustrate the exact issue we have with a stamina build. I'm DK, wearing a full leather armor set, with one hand and a shield and dual wield.
My one hand and a shield bar, in a raid group for AvA combat:- Flame Lash (used to finish off fleeing enemies)
- Fragmented Shield (a very nice tool in AvA)
- Coagulating Blood (sometimes useful when holding the line)
- Shielded Assault (to charge the enemies in an assault)
- Choking Talons (to immobilize the enemies)
My Dual Wield bar, in a raid group for AvA combat:- Blinding Flurry (used against NPC guards, rarely on players)
- Burning Breath (used to decrease the armor of the enemies)
- Volcanic Rune (a very nice CC tool in AvA)
- Steel Tornado (to finish off wounded enemies)
- Igneous Weapons (damage buff)
The one hand and a shield bar is used to hold the line; the dual wield bar is used to counter attack the enemy raid.
Can you see the issue? Well, let me help you:- In the first bar, there are 4 magicka based skills, and only one stamina based skill
- In the second bar, there are 3 magicka based skills, and 2 stamina based skills
- The most important skills for my role in the raid are magicka based, with the exception of Tornado Steel.
- Only one skill in my bars takes a real advantage of my stamina build: Tornado Steel.
The end of the story:
The other DKs of my guild are playing with a one and a shield bar and a destruction staff bar, with a full set of light armor, and are out performing me, for obvious reasons.
In a hope this little example will help your teams to better understand the issue
Thank you very much for this thoughtful and detailed break-down @trimsic_ESO. We'll make sure the team in charge of balance sees it.5 -
p_tsakirisb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭While I believe there are steps to the right direction, they need to raise the cap of melee damage.
Right now the cap seems is 181 power for V7 player. Bug or not, I do not know. Saw it when I cast Rally, after 10 seconds went to 181 and stopped while wasn't going higher for the other 13 seconds of the duration of the ability.
Should have gone to 192 or so.
By putting a smaller weapon on, it scales normally all way to the 22nd second of the duration of the spell.
Edited by p_tsakirisb16_ESO on June 21, 2014 1:43AM0 -
Cogo✭✭✭✭✭
✭ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »Folks, we understand that everyone would like to see changes made to their preferred armor type or weapon immediately. Voicing disappointment that what you're looking for improvements to wasn't mentioned in an update post is totally fair, but we ask that you please understand that balance changes are part of an ongoing, never-ending effort and we implement them carefully and in small steps.
We will continue to do our very best to keep you updated on what is coming, and what we're working toward.
Thank you again. You are Vet20 in patience.Oghur Hatemachine, Guild leader of The Nephilim - EU Megaserver
Orc Weapon Specialist and Warchief of the Ebonheart Pact - Trueflame Cyrodiil War Campaign
Guildsite: The Nephilim
"I don't agree with what you are saying, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it"
-Voltaire
"My build? Improvise, overcome and adapt!"0 -
Lyall84✭✭✭✭p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »While I believe there are steps to the right direction, they need to raise the cap of melee damage.
Right now the cap seems is 181 power for V7 player. Bug or not, I do not know. Saw it when I cast Rally, after 10 seconds went to 181 and stopped while wasn't going higher for the other 13 seconds of the duration of the ability.
Should have gone to 192 or so.
By putting a smaller weapon on, it scales normally all way to the 22nd second of the duration of the spell.
I am VR 11, for some reason my weapon damage goes overcharge and lowers to 174 or 176 in Cyrodiil. At least for weapon damage, spell damage, armor and spell resist there should be no overcharge or caps, let the numbers go as high as their values take them.
The resources and their regeneration make sense if they overcharge. The gear, no so much, especially when the soft caps and hard caps are as low as they are.1 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »
Thank you very much for this thoughtful and detailed break-down @trimsic_ESO. We'll make sure the team in charge of balance sees it.
Kinda how my Nightblade is set up as well.
I've got full Medium Armor, but of my ten skills, only 3 are Stamina Skills."As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?1 -
Hocofaisan✭✭Don't forget ultimates only scale on magicka.
And there are no weapon tree ultimates.
2 -
Eivar✭✭✭✭While I like that these changes are coming, the main issue with stamina/weapon builds, is that there are no good dps skills, everything seems situational.
Dual Wield:
Twin Slashes: mediocre dmg with mediocre DoT applied, you'll end up clipping the DoT if you spam this.
Flurry: severely restricts movement, arguable that the time channeling the skill could be better spent using light attacks, hopefully the dmg buff will fix that.
Whirlwind: if buffed by other skills very nice Aoe dps.
Sparks: Defensive
Hidden Blade: ok dmg, ranged, snare, more of a Utility skill than a dps one.
So essentially flurry for ST, but highly situational due to lack of mobility during use, and Whirlwind which needs to be buffed by other abilities to be worthwhile.
Bow:
Poison Arrow: Decent dmg with a DoT attached, again DoT clipping if spammed, wasted potential.
Volley: Not bad but requires tightly controlled targets or they just walk out of the radius.
Scatter Shot: Fantastic kiting utility, but not a real DD skill.
Arrow Spray: Great Aoe, with a snare costs a LOT but armor changes should help.
Snipe: exceptional ranged attack, but only usable once to initiate combat(if soloing) reduced range and shorter cast time will help, but really needs it's dmg buffed in vet levels. Again not spammable.
Two Handed
Cleave: decent AoE + DoT, not really a boss fight kind of skill
Critical Charge: great gap closer, fantastic for mobility in a fight, not going to necessarily provide a lot of dps. Utility.
Uppercut: Good dmg long "cast time" for a melee ability, worth is debatable as a dmg skill.
Reverse Slash: arguably the best Execute in the game as it only gets stronger as the fight goes on, but at the beginning to mid boss fight not great.
Momentum: Self buff, very nice one though.
Now i'm not asking for spammable facerolling skills necessarily but there don't seem to be many flat out damage dealing skills that you would use on a regular basis, so most of what you do is going to be light/heavy attacks, and sadly those need a lot of love to make them really worthwhile compared to other magicka based skills.
I left sword and board out as it is mainly a tanking skill line, and I have very minor exp with it.3 -
Sakiri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Thejollygreenone wrote: »
IMO, heavy armor as well as 1h/shield shouldn't yield as much damage oriented buffs as medium/light. Heavy armor exists because of it's increased defenses, same with 1h/shield. To expect something with increased defenses to have the same offensive output as something with less defenses is silly to me.
While I recognize this isn't necessarily what you expect or were implying, Denaia. I'm just using your comment as a vehicle to state my belief that someone who chooses to invest in some heavy armor shouldn't be absolutely crippled as a damage user, but should certainly give up some of that damage potential for a more defensive armor type. So I do agree with you to an extent.
Unfortunately one could argue light armor has enough defenses to make this all a moot point, but I think that was unintended and will be scaled down soon enough. My overall point is this:
Sure you should be able to go pvp as a melee or even caster in heavy armor and be effective due to your increased defenses and not have absolute crap offenses if you choose to use an offensive weapon.
However that by no means should go so far as to make heavy armor do the same or similar dps as the two dps oriented armor trees, light/medium, since the game works under the assumption that these two armor trees are less defensive, even though in the current state of the game that might not be the case(yet).
Until there's a significant defensive advantage to heavy over medium and light, then they'd best damn well be equal in terms of DPS capability.
As it is, anything over soft cap is mostly wasted because the DR curve is stupid, and the soft cap is ridiculously easy to reach.
If I have the same effect from any of the three armor types in terms of damage reduction, then there's no bloody excuse for them to not be equal in terms of damage output passives.
On top of it, VR level mobs have this lovely ability to hit me just as hard in plate as they do in cloth, making armor effectively POINTLESS.2 -
Thejollygreenone✭✭✭
Until there's a significant defensive advantage to heavy over medium and light, then they'd best damn well be equal in terms of DPS capability.
As it is, anything over soft cap is mostly wasted because the DR curve is stupid, and the soft cap is ridiculously easy to reach.
If I have the same effect from any of the three armor types in terms of damage reduction, then there's no bloody excuse for them to not be equal in terms of damage output passives.
On top of it, VR level mobs have this lovely ability to hit me just as hard in plate as they do in cloth, making armor effectively POINTLESS.
What I described is in an ideal sense. Not in actuality. Of course right now heavy armor is under performing in it's defensive capabilities. But at its core, heavy armor exists to be the most defensive option.
We should work towards making heavy armor as defensive as it should be rather than making it a choice for dps. Doing the opposite as you seem to wish seems pretty out there to me.
EDIT: My thoughts are that light armors defensive capabilities are way too high and needs to be tuned down. Medium armor MAY need a similar treatment but it doesn't seem like it to me.Edited by Thejollygreenone on June 21, 2014 2:36AM1 -
Sakiri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Disagree, that is what jewelry is for, if you add to much regen on heavy it would become the master armor.
If regen didn't suck complete butt I'd agree with you.
I see 0 noticeable difference with or without regen. I stack ability reduction instead. I'd rather take longer to run out than wait a year to get enough back to do something when I'm trying to not die.
30%, changes as you raise max. So cheaper for magicka builds of you look at actual cost number vs%.
Uses a percentage of max stamina from what I've seen.
Means putting points into stamina so you can use them more often is BS, basically.
Disagree on the heavy being the worst. Medium was the worst, heavy being a close second.
The crit chance on Medium automatically made it better than heavy, easy.
But the problem with stamina builds? Armor is the least of them.0 -
Lyall84✭✭✭✭
If regen didn't suck complete butt I'd agree with you.
I see 0 noticeable difference with or without regen. I stack ability reduction instead. I'd rather take longer to run out than wait a year to get enough back to do something when I'm trying to not die.
Uses a percentage of max stamina from what I've seen.
Means putting points into stamina so you can use them more often is BS, basically.
The crit chance on Medium automatically made it better than heavy, easy.
But the problem with stamina builds? Armor is the least of them.
We are like minded in most aspects, but I think the spell resist offered for the heavy is more than a comparable stat to medium crit. Medium is offensive, heavy defensive. Especially in this world of stick wielding bathrobes, the spell resistance is more useful. With these changes, we will be able to see if the game becomes more balanced.1 -
Mortosk✭✭✭✭
Go for the increase in mitigation and survival first. See how that plays out before screaming for regen. You have to be careful about keeping the balance. Everyone wants their armor type or play style to be the best, but that is unreasonable.
I thought it was a pretty reasonable suggestion.
Light armor gets pure +Magicka regen/reduction
Medium armor gets pure +Stamina regen/reduction
Heavy armor should get half the regen/reduction of each.
That makes all 3 armor types unique and equal when it comes to resource management.
"Now I stand, the lion before the lambs and they do not fear. They can not fear." --Arthas Menethil (aka, The Lich King)0 -
frogprincess_q4✭✭✭As a medium armour NB, I'm pretty excited by these changes. Maybe I'll even be able to survive PvP for more than 30 seconds.
However, my biggest Medium Armour problem is that as a crafter and as a player that is permanently overlevelled, I am constantly having trouble sourcing the next level of medium armour crafting mats.
Atm I am level 46 with half of Reaper's March to go, so I need fell hide. There is NO fell hide to be had and I can't go to the next area for some. Maybe I can get some in Cyrodiil, but as I am so overlevelled already I'm just trying to get quests done before I outlevel them completely. Half of my journal is already greyed out.
I have trouble sourcing Medium Armour mats every single time I level into the next type. It's so sad
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Sakiri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ok, if they want to be a "pure" staminers - so be it!
Medium armor - +3% magicka cost per piece of Medium armor equipped
Heavy armor - +1% magicka cost per piece of Heavy armor equipped
Fair? Yes.
Have you *seen* DK magicka costs?
Before reduction.
My current alt is having issues and I'm rocking 3p Seducer/3p Magnus heavy...
I'm so stubborn to try making heavy armor work it's come to that. Divines with Mage stone too. Might switch that around a bit.
Anything to not be stuck in a dress. I *am* using restoration staff. Only weapon.
Stamina weapons problems come from a few things, and armor type is the least of it's problems.
Heavily relying on bleeds and stamina cost of abilities are pretty high up there in the "*sigh*" part.1 -
Eivar✭✭✭✭
Have you *seen* DK magicka costs?
Before reduction.
My current alt is having issues and I'm rocking 3p Seducer/3p Magnus heavy...
I'm so stubborn to try making heavy armor work it's come to that. Divines with Mage stone too. Might switch that around a bit.
Anything to not be stuck in a dress. I *am* using restoration staff. Only weapon.
Stamina weapons problems come from a few things, and armor type is the least of it's problems.
Heavily relying on bleeds and stamina cost of abilities are pretty high up there in the "*sigh*" part.
if you aren't already using it you should try out the warlock set.2
