Templar Update

arobertson.eeb14a_ESO

chaosme wrote: »

Since we are on the topic about templars, I would also like to bring up Eclipse.

Currently, Eclipse is not usable against CC immune targets because for some unknown reason Eclipse counts as a hard CC and can be broken out of with CC break.

Why is this the case though? When every other hard CC (disorient, stun, knockdown) completely shuts down your character and Eclipse does nothing of that sort?

Was this intentional? Could we get a change so that this skill is at least usable against CC immune targets?

It's pretty much in the same boat as dual wield Sparks which is the melee equivalent of shutting down melee only bosses.

Mortosk

Mortosk wrote: »

What about solar barrage? I guess I picked the wrong morph. It's already instant so doesn't benefit from the buff. It just costs way too much magicka and does crappy damage, and it definitely has a fairly long GCD for some reason, unlike other skills.

The thing is it provides a buff that sorta sucks, but it will boost the next skill u use with certain exceptions including itself.

Would be nice if you buffed this melee centric skill especially considering you buffed the range variants and melee DPS is in the pits right now.

Hate quoting myself but I forgot to include the suggestion for improvement.

Why not make it buff all damage for a short duration like a 10 second buff. Because all it does is buff the next attack now. I don't even think it buffs all 4 biting jabs just the first of 4. Correct me if I'm wrong. But I usually only use it before casting a crescent sweep because it's a large single attack and the only skill it adds any noticeable improvement to.

grizzbi

I'll add to what most people say here:
- Still no resource management.
- Few synergies between our skills (beside healing) compared to the other classes.

10% more damage on a few skills will be barely noticeable if you ask me. I won't even notice it if I can't cast the ability because I don't have enough magicka, stamina or Ultimate points...

It looks like they give us a slight buff in damage to keep us interested. That's uninspired and it looks disconnected from reality.

And balance wise, it won't bring that much.

Well, we'll see.

But from what I understand, the class stay unchanged. Only those with a DPS meter will be able to notice a slight difference if they don't have better things to do.

Nice try.. But uninspired.

Thanks anyway....

EDIT: on a positive note...there are many coming changes for templar in these patchs. When they will be available, I'll do all the needed tests to see if it opens new build possibilities. I hate to be negative before any real test. But as you can see, I'm a bit disappointed with these news.

kewl

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

This is a small part of our ongoing class and skill line efforts, and there will be more to come.

Thank you. We appreciate your continuing efforts to improve communication.

Custos91

Please guys stay real, that is not about who is being the best/worst DPS Heal Tank whateverclass in the game, its about problems of the templar.
Don't argue with "you got a heal tree, you shouldn't do as much dmg"
Earthen Heart tree has nothing that gives you dmg, Daedric summoning has only the ultimate that does somehow dmg, I am not sure about NBs, but I guess Leeching strikes brings your dmg down enough.
one tree that does not do any dmg shouldn't decide the fate of a class.
Lets talk about the problems the class really has atm, not how they should behave in your opinion, as long as the devs don't say its intended that templar actives are more versatile and the passives are less versatile I will stick to "all classes should behave more or less equal in the DPS race".

Goibot

Slight buff in dps would be nice, but it won't be enough to bring him out of the barn. He is parked and will stay there until we have some kind of magic regen.

grizzbi

We'll need to test these changes.

Maybe there are skill synergies which are not obvious in the news...Many times I've discovered (small) interesting hidden synergies after long test sessions..And I can understand that they don't want to change the class too much (and get it out of control)..

I hope that they will continue to monitor the results to see if Templar have as many builds available to them as other classes.

Step by step...keep confident

Cogo

Ok, fact time.

The 4 classes are supposed to be different, with each 3 CLASS trees being something the other 3 classes do not have access to.

Are we clear on this?


This does not mean that DKs CLASS abilities (Since I am a DK) should be anywhere close or even HAVE healing CLASS skills as templars, or burst damage as night blades, or ranged spell damage as a sorcerer. CLASS ABILITY!

The passives of EACH 4 classes are supposed to be VERY different to ALL classes.

The rest of all the skills that are available to ALL, will define and create your build, of not even a unique build. The strength of this build are SUPPOSED to be different in "power". The REAL power of your build comes from YOUR play style.
This is one of the CORE feature of ESO.

Of COURSE a skill system based MMO, requires constant overview and balance of all skills, with the big map of ALL skills included.


It seams like people EXPECTING every CLASS to be able to have the same CLASS abilities AND the same power??????


Zenimax is looking at Templars and I have trust in them to fix the broken CLASS skills of templars. Is that not enough?


Zenimax is doing an AWESOME job in constant balancing of ALL skills in the game. With a complex overview of ALL skills.
This work is never done, and ongoing.


FACT: Almost every WEEK, a skill or more gets tweaked.
FACT: Almost ALL patches includes fixes and balances of all kinds of skills.


The balance of skills is NOT for YOU. Its for the overall balancing of all skills.
ALL builds have strengths depending on your choices. THIS you must know?


ESO EVEN offers you to build a completely playable build WITHOUT even pick a single class skill! The CORE skill system is NOT to make ALL builds equal "Good" in everything, but to give the choice to build YOUR class. Even if you build a less powerful one.

Cogo

Custos91 wrote: »

Please guys stay real, that is not about who is being the best/worst DPS Heal Tank whateverclass in the game, its about problems of the templar.

Don't argue with "you got a heal tree, you shouldn't do as much dmg"
Earthen Heart tree has nothing that gives you dmg, Daedric summoning has only the ultimate that does somehow dmg, I am not sure about NBs, but I guess Leeching strikes brings your dmg down enough.

One tree that does not do any dmg shouldn't decide the fate of a class.
Lets talk about the problems the class really has atm, not how they should behave in your opinion, as long as the devs don't say its intended that templar actives are more versatile and the passives are less versatile I will stick to "all classes should behave more or less equal in the DPS race".

Very well explained. Much better then my rage post.

I am just so surprised that so many on these forums (not in game) Do not understand this simple fact.

Well written, and I hope Zeni is listening to this as well.

NerfEverything

Yeah charge has never worked the way the tooltip said. Instead of fixing it, they are nerfing the tooltip.

Also, don't forget our healing ultimate is getting stealth nerfed to half the duration in order to match up with the tooltip.

I find it a little ironic that in one case, you change the tool tip to avoid buffing the templar skill. And in the other situation you nerf the skill to avoid changing the tooltip.

It is like someone over there just does not want templars to perform well.

@Cogo I can also spout random bs in bold text, but it doesn't mean it makes any sense. I highly recommend you spend some time on the PTS playing some different classes. This will help you get a better understanding of the current state of class balance and then you may be able to contribute some constructive suggestions.

tplink3r1

templar description in the creation menu: "These traveling KNIGHTS call upon the powers of the light and the burning sun to deal MASSIVE DAMAGE while restoring health, stamina and magicka to their alies."
this is so wrong.

madangrypally

This is what I suggested in changes.

Templars: First I would like to state I do not think Templars are as bad off as most think they are and I think any major changes will make them OP very easily. I do think some changes need to occur though and here is what I think will bring up on par with the the other classes.

Aedric Spear Tree:
Radial Sweep and its Morphs. Make it scale off of how much Ultimate is used like NBs Death Stroke.

================

Dawn's Wrath Tree:
Sun Fire: Increase its damage slightly. Give this skill the execute modifier like most classes have.

Solar Flare: Make it instant cast. Make the spell/weapon power buff last 4 seconds so it has synergy with other abilities. IE: I can use if for Puncturing Strike and it effects every hit instead of only the first one.

Backlash: A Templar can only have 1 active backlash up at a time, but once it reaches the damage cap it detonates instantly. Multiple templars can have a backlash on the same target though will ignore damage from other backlashes. Make it instant cast. Reduce the 33% additional damage to 25% damage. Allow Crits to go over the damage cap.

Passive:
Restoring Spirit: Increase passive reduction to 3/6% at least, but would like 4/8%.
================

Restoring Light Tree:

Passive: Light Weaver is totally changed to the follow:

1. Activating Radial Sweep restores ?% of a players Max Magicka and Max Stamina based on Ultimate amount used.
2. Activating Nova restores ?% of a players Max Magicka and Max Stamina to all allies in area of its radius.
3. Activating Rite of Passage Restores a % of a players Max Magicka.
4. Activating a Ultimate not listed above restores a % of a players Max Magicka and Stamina based on Ultimate cost.

Or just change it to restore a % of max stamina and magicka when using any ultimate if it will be easier to code.

The above % needs to solve Templars magicka issues without making it to OP.

Syndy

Cogo wrote: »

Custos91 wrote: »

Please guys stay real, that is not about who is being the best/worst DPS Heal Tank whateverclass in the game, its about problems of the templar.

Don't argue with "you got a heal tree, you shouldn't do as much dmg"
Earthen Heart tree has nothing that gives you dmg, Daedric summoning has only the ultimate that does somehow dmg, I am not sure about NBs, but I guess Leeching strikes brings your dmg down enough.

One tree that does not do any dmg shouldn't decide the fate of a class.
Lets talk about the problems the class really has atm, not how they should behave in your opinion, as long as the devs don't say its intended that templar actives are more versatile and the passives are less versatile I will stick to "all classes should behave more or less equal in the DPS race".

Very well explained. Much better then my rage post.

I am just so surprised that so many on these forums (not in game) Do not understand this simple fact.

Well written, and I hope Zeni is listening to this as well.

This just furthers the point I was making about a majority of the population not having a clue about how to balance classes in this game.

If you actually think about what @Custos91 is saying you should realize how wrong he/she is.

Let me spell it out for you with as few variables as possible, to avoid any confusion:

Class A: Great self healing. Does equal dps as every other class.

Class B:Decent self healing . Does equal dps as every other class.

Which class would you play?

Having a class that has a clear healing advantage over every other class and doing equal dps is not balanced.

Shaggygaming

Do any Templars use restoring light class skills in PVP except for Breath Of Life? Just curious..I don't. I only need Breath of Life and a couple Restoration skills.

Cogo

f0rgiv3n27b14_ESO wrote: »

This just furthers the point I was making about a majority of the population not having a clue about how to balance classes in this game.

If you actually think about what @Custos91 is saying you should realize how wrong he/she is.

Let me spell it out for you with as few variables as possible, to avoid any confusion:

Class A: Great self healing. Does equal dps as every other class.

Class B:Decent self healing . Does equal dps as every other class.

Which class would you play?

Having a class that has a clear healing advantage over every other class and doing equal dps is not balanced.

Nice to see another user on these forums who understand this isnt Diablo 3 ;-)

Nice post.

Fuxo

Adonikam wrote: »

Do any Templars use restoring light class skills in PVP except for Breath Of Life? Just curious..I don't. I only need Breath of Life and a couple Restoration skills.

Cleansing Ritual only. Sometimes Repentance when riding with a zerg. Rushed Ceremony is completely random and its morph Honor the Dead (that I use) is bugged and does not return any magicka, because somebody added that 50% health check AFTER healing is applied. Healing Ritual with 2 secs casting time is inferior to Healing Springs, which is instant, costs less, generates a lot of ulti and does the job as well.

In PvP, I prefer support (buffs/debuffs) over healing. Healing Springs and Mutagen are very good because the are cheap and generate a lot of ulti (e.g. for Barrier).

Fuxo

I wonder why templar passives are so restricted. For example if Burning Light, Enduring Rays, Prism and Illuminate worked with all templar abilities, templar problems would be gone thanks to these synergies.

Syndy

Adonikam wrote: »

Do any Templars use restoring light class skills in PVP except for Breath Of Life? Just curious..I don't. I only need Breath of Life and a couple Restoration skills.

Breath of life and the occasional Cleansing Ritual. But other than that no, Breath of life is pretty much all you need.

Edit: My healing bar is as follows:

Breath of Life, Purge, Immovable, Cleansing Ritual, Radiant Magelight.

temjiu

Im honestly a bit confused by a few of these:

1) Why did our #1 most often used and abused "jack fo all trades" spell (PS) need a damage boost? is this in compensation for the extra magic cost? why not just reduce the cost back to where it was? all were doing with this is giving people even mroe reason to run the entire game with one spell and a staff (like they don't do that already...) I thought this spell needed to be adjusted in the other direction... I mean, I don't turn down buffs, but with all the other things we could have used for the class, why buff the "bot special" ability?

2) nice job on wrath AND nova. wrath was already a good ability, but still I think it was underperforming a bit in comparison with other similar skills. and nova needed a boost...it was simply too expensive for what it did.

3) where's the resource adjustments? Thats the critical issue right now with Templars in general...we are too resource heavy. the smaller DPS changes just don't seem to jive with the fact that we STILL use more resources for our under performing skills then other classes, and have LESS ways to recoup. personally, just having a 5% reduction in costs across the board would be a great start.

JLB

Axer wrote: »

Really all templar needs is a REAL reason they stand out as the clear top tank and healer class. Thats it.

We can let other classes reign supreme in dps, if we have something we are best at at least. Right now, we don't really.

Healing:
Every class can put out sufficient healing with the current pve game design. The better burst heal templars get (breath of life) is better in pvp in theory, but annoying in practice: It inevitably always heals the terrible noob lvl10 nearby, and not the powerful V12 ally you are grouped with.

One major fix would simply to be to improve the smart targetting (prioritize group members), and also allow us to plain disable it, and use it a self only, or targeted heal.

That along with allowing just ONE of our healing passive to apply to resto staff, would be enough to set templars apart as the best healers. Maybe mending. I mean tons of DK passives apply to other likes (like flame destro staff) so its pretty broken balance none of the templars have any weapon skill line synergy.

Tanking:
As long as DK have a "I win I have god mode" button, this can never be balanced. As much as I do not want any DK nerfs to happen ,and instead just have templar/nb buffs balance thigns out.. Magma armor is just plain broken. It has to be changed from "You can't die for 10 seconds" to something reasonable. It can be mega powerful, it just cant be the current GODMODE that it is.
Perhaps: +50% damage reduction for 12 seconds, plus a minor dps boost on it.
Still would be near unkillable, just not flat out god mode.

Then give templars a tank ultimate (we have none really, the healing one breaks us as we cannot taunt/tank properly while using it.

I noticed the radial sweep is getting some weird low duration DR% applied to it. It would still be worthless for tanks, as we generate almost zero ultimate while tanking. So id scrap that idea and change it to:
While slotted, increases damage reduction 10%. (Plus current benefits for activating it, maybe +10% dmg took, and fix the spear crit passives as noted).

And change spear wall to: Increases block mitigation by 15%. (No "for melee stirkes only", put it on a bloody even level with the dk passive, which does apply to all blocking.)

Those minor fixes to templars, (and a neccesary major change to magma armor on dks) would let templars confortable sit on the tanking throne.

I was going to comment something pretty close to what you are saying, so I better quote you instead. You nailed it, imo.

Just a couple things I would like to add:

- Rune Focus.
Please do something with this ability Devs.
Forcing you to stand still to benefit from the only defensive buff Templars have is not logic. The Armour/Spell Resist buff should follow the caster at all times, or the area should just be big enough to be able to move around a bit.
Bound Armour from Sorcerers and Spiked Armour from DKs don't force them to stand still but Templars are. Standing still in this game means death.
Any chance this small area could be looked at please?

And one last suggestion in line with the above:
Rite of Passage
This could be changed to let Templars move while casting it.
It's a great Ultimate but it's unviable for tanking for the same reasons Rune Focus doesn't work well: it forces you to stand still = death.
Channeling already slows your movement anyways. It would be a nice improvement and would give the Ultimate more versatility for roles other than healer.

temjiu

f0rgiv3n27b14_ESO wrote: »

Let me spell it out for you with as few variables as possible, to avoid any confusion:

Class A: Great self healing. Does equal dps as every other class.

Class B:Decent self healing . Does equal dps as every other class.

Which class would you play?

Having a class that has a clear healing advantage over every other class and doing equal dps is not balanced.

Except there's a few conflicts with your point. IF Templars could DPS as well as the other classes, then Your point would be viable. As it is, they can't.

If you could point out the droves of Templars that are currently in DPS spots in trials in competitive teams, im all ears.

they aren't there.

Now...if you could point out how many sorcs there are that are filling healing slots...oh my goodness...there's plenty of those!

for your example to fit, we would be seeing NO sorcs set up as healers in the higher tiers of the game...but they are there aplenty. Now...this could be an issue solely with the Sorcs. But I think its an overall balance issue. if Templars are the healers of choice, we really should be seeing a reverse of the situation present right now.

what about NB's? they can heal almost as effectively, AND provide superior DPS to templars, AT THE SAME TIME. your paradigm doesn't match the reality in the game atm. There is currently only ONE class that really can't heal AND put out superior DPS to the Templar. And it really doesn't matter right now, as that class (DK) puts out so much DPS that no one cares.

the problem is that the Templar class cannot keep up enough in other areas to be viable as the "healer" even if they are superior to other classes. We would actually need content that takes advantage of that healing superiority...which apparently isn't in the game atm.

And even then, do you honestly think that Zenimax wants to shoehorn the templar into a healing role...and kick all other classes out of it? why would they even put a healing staff into the game if that was their design. why even ALLOW other classes the option of healing (which 2 out of the 4 can do as easily as a templar for the current content).

If Zenimax really had intended for the Templar to be "the healer" then they would have killed the resto staff before it ever got to live. They didn't....so this whole concept of class structure forcing roles is a moot point. if a sorc can heal well enough to fill a healing slot in the game...and out DPS a templar, why can't a templar outheal a sorc...and keep up well enough in DPS to fill a DPS slot?

dmschuknechtb14_ESO

The changes look great as a first step! The only weakness Templars have is their damage. Continue to buff this and we will be on par with everyone else.

Every class should be viable to fill every role. Currently the game is very close to achieving this.

Tanks: all classes are viable here
Healers: all classes are viable
DPS: All classes but Templars

I don't understand everyone's complaints about magica management. Is it that you have to use a robe and staff? Everyone does! Templars are no worse off than anyone else.

glak

Custos91 wrote: »

2: All templar skills seem to cost more magicka then other class skills.
That is that way, nobody can deny that. Its somehow fair, because all of these skills bring a lot of tools, but with all our abbilitys that magicka draining it is dangerous.

The Templar spell costs were increased because of Restoring Spirit making Templar OP. Then they nerfed Restoring Spirit hard.

We need these costs lowered back to where they were or triple Restoring Spirit.

chaosme

Buck wrote: »

Focused Charge/Explosive Charge - is not stunning the enemy for 3secs. I reported this in game before but didn't see it in the list. Maybe someone else can confirm/deny this...? But I do not see the mob stunned at all after I hit it.

Focused charge and explosive charge has always been the same in that they stun if and only if it successfully interrupts. The description for the stun is exactly the same as that for crushing shock and venom arrow, in that you need to interrupt something to stun.

The other morph, toppling charge adds a guaranteed stun on top of that so it will always stun unless the target is blocking or immune when it lands.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

I will agree with @glak above.

The Templar high costs on Magicka were introduced during beta, because of the Restoring Spirit.
The Devs removed the Restoring Spirit but left the high costs of the abilities.

I remember back on January Beta, my Khajiit Templar was able to cast Vampire Bane, in full Medium armour & DW all day along. good days.


Either way. While I wish the Devs look at the resource management issue we face, Templars do have some inherited issues that cannot be easily solved.

Eclipse (+ morphs) is circumstantial. It should work for all but AoE. NB strikes, DK what ever, should pop back to their heads. However it doesn't. And breaks easier than we can break NB & DK CC.

Do not get me wrong, is great tool to pop and hack someone to death with a weapon. Removing magicka from the battle completely is god send. But....

Binding Javelin needs bit more time to hold the enemy down. Is doing absolutely 0 damage, and costs ridiculous amount of Magicka and is our only CC.
(the Spear Shards is worst tbh)

However even when we use it on emergencies, we cannot throw it and heal ourselves before the opponent is up on his feet. Even Breath of Life takes longer to cast (finishing the animation) than the time it takes the opponent to get up.

Solar Barrage, great ability but if you could make is run for few seconds instead the immediate next attack, might help a lot our damage output which is pathetic to boot.


On the contrary most of the NB & DKs similar abilities, do have longer CC, doing more damage, applying effects (eg vulnerable) and they heal them or generate STA/MA.

Personally I gave up hope with my Templar. To the points I made him a Vampire, because he gets that bit little extra that desperately needs.
(is still hard to play but I like the toon).

FYI Qbar has three 2H abilities, 1 Mages Guild (Degeneration), 1 Vampire (Invigorating Drain) and Fighers Guild Ultimate.
It works OK but hardly can be called a Templar. Just a "generic" toon.

Abilities like these the Templar melee/tanks lack, if not going to resort to Vampires....

Invigorating Drain (Vamp),
Green Dragonblood (DK), Drain Essense (DK), Burning Embers (DK), plus the above with Burning Heart Passive.
Siphoning Attacks (NB).

While what we get is PBAE and easily avoided, while most do not provide any form of CC and barely working.

Also Templars while they can scrape the tools from all around trying to come close to DK/NB/SC we do not have enough slots on a single qbar.
Our different "effects" are too spread out, on multiple abilities, while the others do have them concentrated. (see above, when they have CC+damage+healing/ma/sta recovery on single abilities).

Maybe give to templars 6-7 slot qbar, and we can sort it out ourselves.

hamon

i,ll add my voice to the concensus. This IS a step in the right direction.. This is NOT the full problem. magika regen is still much needed then we can see where we are from there.

at least you are looking at us.. just keep working at us please. till we can hold our heads high as a class

GTech_1

I would like to see more of the Templar passives also apply to the weapon skill lines.
This should bring the Templar passives more inline with the passives of other classes, such as the Dragon Knight and Sorcerer.
Nightblades suffer from a similar disparity. It may be worth looking into as a whole.

As far as Templar resource management, I would like to throw this out there as food for thought:

Some possible adjustments to the Restoring Light tree:

• Restoring Aura and its morphs, now also reduce the magicka cost of abilites by 5-10% when slotted.
• Radiant Aura when used, this ability now also restores magicka to the user over time
• Repentance now also reduces the stamina cost of abilities when slotted

As the morphed skills rank up, each of these morphs could improve in the area of magicka / stamina cost reduction.

Demira

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO wrote: »

f0rgiv3n27b14_ESO wrote: »

Dark Flare decreased cast time and more damage...

Also some Nova love! It's a good day.

Thanks!

Edit: Templars need some sort of resource management option other than a minimal decrease in spell cost... If you play your templar as rdps/support, you are forced to use a Healing staff to even go through 2 rotations of abilities.

Edit 2: I don't think Templars should do as much dps as Night Blades or Sorcs, or be able to take a beating like Dragon Knights (which do to much dmg combined with their survivability).

IMO buffing dmg is not the way to go, giving Templars a way to replenish magicka would help the class more than any dmg buff. Templars can do some insane burst healing so they don't need to be able to do insane damage due to that.

Templars should be able to do every bit as much damage as Nightblades and be able to tank just as well as a Dragonknight. The whole concept of this game was that any class can do anything.

That is why I am not bothered if Sorcerers, Dragonknights or Nightblades can heal as well as (currently better than) Templars.

I completely agree with every other point you made

But the Templars should be better healers than the other classes, PERIOD!
AND the magicka cost on the heal spells of the templar class line are simply ridiculously high compared to the restro staff??! The templar should be using their heal spells instead of the stupid staff!
And the templars magicka regen should be as good as any casters in the game.

Francescolg

Templar skills should not only be compared to the other 3 classes dmg wise but also in cost - damage ratio.
Templars only "outheal dmg" when they can prepare some heal-synergies, as spot-healing is. The group heal takes 2 sec casting time and is often ineffective or not strong enough as healing springs/resto spamming would be in spot-healing. So no real advantages in healing effectiveness.
Actually the group heal should heal 1000 dmg, a simple PvP-guard does more in one shot, not to mention siege weapons, while the group heal heals only 500dmg and takes 2 seconds to prepare + 1 sec animation = too slow.

Other wishes:
- Casts/skills that do more (!) dmg as a simple vr12 weapon heavy attack.
- Significant DoTs: longer duration!
- More AE-CC is needed for PvE, actually many templars rely on mage guild abilities. Noat all templars want to play melee PvE with volcanic rune!
Templar shields should hold longer.
Stronger-stamina regeneration skills
Templars would love to have a rezz skill!

Ralph_Damiani

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi folks,
We hear you loud and clear about the need for resource management improvements for Templars. We're looking into what we can do there, too, and appreciate your suggestions.

Thank you Jessica. It might be just me, but I've been seeing a noticeable improvement in the team's communication recently, with more forum and reddit activity, addressing the most popular (and some old) issues. Thanks for acknowledging them and keep it up!