Templar Update

Scora

Is the Puncturing Sweep changes that's on the pts going to go live as well?

Nox_Aeterna

So , they finally made a thread for templars eh.

Well , better later than never.

I hope they wont stop this till the class gets in shape.

Cogo

Thanks a lot for the update Jessica!!!!

My trust in Zenimax keeps growing. Soon I dont think I need to check forums anymore. bugs gets fixed, balancing works. new stuff comes in game.

Awesome!

To everyone else who complains when Zenimax is listening to you and do focus on YOUR class, I am starting to be ASHAMED over being part of a community of players who can not say "thank you" for update about their class fixes

Mortosk

Cogo wrote: »

Thanks a lot for the update Jessica!!!!

My trust in Zenimax keeps growing. Soon I dont think I need to check forums anymore. bugs gets fixed, balancing works. new stuff comes in game.

Awesome!

To everyone else who complains when Zenimax is listening to you and do focus on YOUR class, I am starting to be ASHAMED over being part of a community of players who can not say "thank you" for update about their class fixes

Thank you for the 10% buff. However, it's really not enough. You need to do something about Templar's resource management. Our magicka regen got sledge hammer nerfed at the end of Beta, and that is the main reason we can't compete with other classes. It was way over done. Seriously.

Also, our skills aren't synergizing with one another like other classes. And a lot of our skills have too short of a duration to be useful in anything other than extremely situational circumstances.

Thanks for starting to bring us in line with other classes. But, please let us know that this is not the end of your efforts, but just the begining.

These changes do not a Templar make, and if this is all you have up your sleeve, then to me personally, despite being buffed by 10%, this is terrible news and acts as confirmation that the class won't be fixed anytime soon.

Please post a followup explaining there's more to come, no matter how vague. Tell us this is just the opening salvo of a multi-pronged approach to fix the most broken class. This is what is really needed, please put our minds at ease.

Inco

Oh.. Cogo.. get off your horse.. No really.. it's blocking our view.

Meanwhile, We are GLAD (Giddy even) to see ZOS has magically appeared and ready to address the TEMPLAR issues that are the laughing stock of the game. Would have been nice to see it mentioned in the Road Map, but whatever.

DPS and MAGICKA

While I agree we got some nice DPS BUFF's here the CORE PROBLEM still exists and that needs to be addressed before most people will say.... "OKAY they actually CARE about this class"... MAGICKA REGEN is crap with Templars... period.

Me.. my VR12 Templar Healer will continue to craft and sit at the bank even after these changes, because they didn't do anything for my specific build.

chaosme

Since we are on the topic about templars, I would also like to bring up Eclipse.

Currently, Eclipse is not usable against CC immune targets because for some unknown reason Eclipse counts as a hard CC and can be broken out of with CC break.

Why is this the case though? When every other hard CC (disorient, stun, knockdown) completely shuts down your character and Eclipse does nothing of that sort?

Was this intentional? Could we get a change so that this skill is at least usable against CC immune targets?

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

evedgebah wrote: »

This looks amazing on paper. The one thing I'd follow up with is a need for magicka management beyond our cost reduction passive.

We already have 2 skills that would be excellent options for doing this:
Restoring Aura & Channeled Focus.

Restoring Aura: Simply make it apply to magicka recovery (or base restore) on top of Health/Stamina

Channeled Focus: Increase the magicka recovery over time to 10 or 15 from 5 per tic.

completely disagree.
I have had my magica regain high in overcharge the whole game and have a very difficult time managing magica anyway. if they buff regain we actually get nothing at all,I already have it so 12 more would give me 1 0r 2 regain if im lucky. we need some type of resource management separate from increasing regain, like how mages get magica every time they kill with a specific spell.

channeleld focus is also almost completely useless because it is a tiny aoe that stays routed, and this is a game where you have to stay moving to survive. the one thing do like is the magica you gain is completely separate from your magica-regain stat. unless the magica you gain is at least double the cost, the skill is still basically unusable because you have to constantly move out of it. possibley if the area was a little larger, the magica gain was drastically increased and the non magica replinesh was decreased( so its not op) it might have a chance of someone slotting it( aside for perhaps a templar tank playing a dungeon)

Mortosk

Inco wrote: »

Oh.. Cogo.. get off your horse.. No really.. it's blocking our view.

Meanwhile, We are GLAD (Giddy even) to see ZOS has magically appeared and ready to address the TEMPLAR issues that are the laughing stock of the game. Would have been nice to see it mentioned in the Road Map, but whatever.

DPS and MAGICKA

While I agree we got some nice DPS BUFF's here the CORE PROBLEM still exists and that needs to be addressed before most people will say.... "OKAY they actually CARE about this class"... MAGICKA REGEN is crap with Templars... period.

Me.. my VR12 Templar Healer will continue to craft and sit at the bank even after these changes, because they didn't do anything for my specific build.

I'm begining to wonder if there's enough of us left to fight for what needs to happen. Templars sure aren't a rowdy enough lot, and that may be why we've been ignored for so long.

This thread is a prime example. If this was a change to DK's or Sorc's or even NB's, we'd be on page 5 or 6 by now, but here we are on the top of page 2 still hours after the official post.

Nox_Aeterna

Mortosk wrote: »

Inco wrote: »

Oh.. Cogo.. get off your horse.. No really.. it's blocking our view.

Meanwhile, We are GLAD (Giddy even) to see ZOS has magically appeared and ready to address the TEMPLAR issues that are the laughing stock of the game. Would have been nice to see it mentioned in the Road Map, but whatever.

DPS and MAGICKA

While I agree we got some nice DPS BUFF's here the CORE PROBLEM still exists and that needs to be addressed before most people will say.... "OKAY they actually CARE about this class"... MAGICKA REGEN is crap with Templars... period.

Me.. my VR12 Templar Healer will continue to craft and sit at the bank even after these changes, because they didn't do anything for my specific build.

I'm begining to wonder if there's enough of us left to fight for what needs to happen. Templars sure aren't a rowdy enough lot, and that may be why we've been ignored for so long.

This thread is a prime example. If this was a change to DK's or Sorc's or even NB's, we'd be on page 5 or 6 by now, but here we are on the top of page 2 still hours after the official post.

Took them around 3 months to finally get on this.

Tons of templars already either left or jumped ship to another class which performed much better and apparently will keep getting buffs actually better than the templars even now , so it is still worth to jump ship if pretty much any other class seems appealing and you have the patience to do the quests again.

It also does not help how many consider that templars should actually be just healers.

Honestly , i see no reason to thank zen dev team , if anything i think the devs are doing a poor and slow job , the only reason i still believe this game has a chance to stay out of F2P like so many other MMOs i tried out at release , is that they have the console launch , which will be this game defining moment.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

Erock25 wrote: »

Fuxo wrote: »

Magicka management is OK if you play a mage build in a robe with a (resto) staff. Equilibrium is also usable if you have other healers nearby. But some templars are actually those healers. Or they would like to play as tanks in heavy armor with a weapon. Then, magicka sustainability becomes a real problem.

I just don't see how a Sorc that isn't in a mage build has it any better. When my Sorc is specced to tank or wearing medium armor, magicka is very tough and I have zero ability to regen it. I'm not using Dark Conversion on a stamina user.

Is it just that Temp spells cost a lot? Weird that it is such a unanimous feeling in this thread but everyone seems wrong about how other classes (particularly Sorc as it is all I know) have it better.

sure a sorc that isnt a mage may have the same problem but they have a choice. the point is building something to fill a role not any possible role.

seeing that templar is clearly supposed to be a support class, but most competitive groups want a sorc to fill the role that templars class skills give... healing. this suggests that something is a miss. these people are not a bunch of whiny smucks, we are talking about groups finding the most efficient way to be on the leaderboards. I want sorcs to be awesome healer so people are not pigeon holed into templar, but if they can out heal me for every long boss fight just by spamming more spells then I can possible hope to, then something is wrong.
at the end of the day sorcs cast more heals and people want them healing.

if its unbalanced to have the most survivable class "dk" doing the dps of other classes, then its unbalanced to have another class simply out heal the healing class. with a whole skill-line dedicated to healing, and one to support/utility, we are a healing class.

all I ask for is enough balance so that when I join a competitive group they dont moan when the find out im actually a temp not sorc healer.
I could be way off track but most mage healer's I have talked to say they rarely have any major manna issues, where as I run out quite easily and have to be insanely diligent to be a superb healer.

chaosme

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

channeleld focus is also almost completely useless because it is a tiny aoe that stays routed, and this is a game where you have to stay moving to survive. the one thing do like is the magica you gain is completely separate from your magica-regain stat. unless the magica you gain is at least double the cost, the skill is still basically unusable because you have to constantly move out of it. possibley if the area was a little larger, the magica gain was drastically increased and the non magica replinesh was decreased( so its not op) it might have a chance of someone slotting it( aside for perhaps a templar tank playing a dungeon)

This is a common misconception regarding channeled focus that I would like to correct. You do not have to stay in the focus to get the magicka regen from the skill. You lose the armor buff if you step out of the focus but the magicka regen keeps working as long as the focus is still on the ground. I would prefer if the armor buff degrades over time instead of falling off completely when you step out of the focus but that is another issue.

Currently, you also gain 10 magicka per 0.5s while the focus is active which works out to a total of 340 magicka gain if you let the focus expire instead of recasting it as you move. Depending on your cost reduction, 340 magicka can be about double the cost of the skill.

EDIT: to fixed broken quote.

Mortosk

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Mortosk wrote: »

Inco wrote: »

Oh.. Cogo.. get off your horse.. No really.. it's blocking our view.

Meanwhile, We are GLAD (Giddy even) to see ZOS has magically appeared and ready to address the TEMPLAR issues that are the laughing stock of the game. Would have been nice to see it mentioned in the Road Map, but whatever.

DPS and MAGICKA

While I agree we got some nice DPS BUFF's here the CORE PROBLEM still exists and that needs to be addressed before most people will say.... "OKAY they actually CARE about this class"... MAGICKA REGEN is crap with Templars... period.

Me.. my VR12 Templar Healer will continue to craft and sit at the bank even after these changes, because they didn't do anything for my specific build.

I'm begining to wonder if there's enough of us left to fight for what needs to happen. Templars sure aren't a rowdy enough lot, and that may be why we've been ignored for so long.

This thread is a prime example. If this was a change to DK's or Sorc's or even NB's, we'd be on page 5 or 6 by now, but here we are on the top of page 2 still hours after the official post.

Took them around 3 months to finally get on this.

Tons of templars already either left or jumped ship to another class which performed much better and apparently will keep getting buffs actually better than the templars even now , so it is still worth to jump ship if pretty much any other class seems appealing and you have the patience to do the quests again.

It also does not help how many consider that templars should actually be just healers.

Honestly , i see no reason to thank zen dev team , if anything i think the devs are doing a poor and slow job , the only reason i still believe this game has a chance to stay out of F2P like so many other MMOs i tried out at release , is that they have the console launch , which will be this game defining moment.

What really is baffling is they nerfed puncturing strikes because of "high single target DPS" (It totally had nothing to do with the fact that 90% of bots used it) by adding a ridiculous GCD to the skill. This was one of the few occasions where templars were in an uproar on the forums, so they reverted the change, but with the cavaet that they would increase the magicka cost by roughly 10% instead (on a magicka starved class with no resource management skills/magicka regen).

Now they are increasing it's single target and AOE damage by 10%, because it doesn't do enough damage.

Am I the only one confused by this?

Inco

Yea.. someone has some wrong data figures on Templars, cause I'm just not seeing the LOGIC either. I suspect our good ole BOT Buddies are screwing up the numbers with the amount of automation they are using.

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO

f0rgiv3n27b14_ESO wrote: »

Dark Flare decreased cast time and more damage...

Also some Nova love! It's a good day.

Thanks!

Edit: Templars need some sort of resource management option other than a minimal decrease in spell cost... If you play your templar as rdps/support, you are forced to use a Healing staff to even go through 2 rotations of abilities.

Edit 2: I don't think Templars should do as much dps as Night Blades or Sorcs, or be able to take a beating like Dragon Knights (which do to much dmg combined with their survivability).

IMO buffing dmg is not the way to go, giving Templars a way to replenish magicka would help the class more than any dmg buff. Templars can do some insane burst healing so they don't need to be able to do insane damage due to that.

Templars should be able to do every bit as much damage as Nightblades and be able to tank just as well as a Dragonknight. The whole concept of this game was that any class can do anything.

That is why I am not bothered if Sorcerers, Dragonknights or Nightblades can heal as well as (currently better than) Templars.

I completely agree with every other point you made

Talketzanto

What about nightblades

Mortosk

Talketzanto wrote: »

What about nightblades

Hope they fix you better than the fixed us.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Hi folks,

We hear you loud and clear about the need for resource management improvements for Templars. We're looking into what we can do there, too, and appreciate your suggestions.

Mortosk

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi folks,

We hear you loud and clear about the need for resource management improvements for Templars. We're looking into what we can do there, too, and appreciate your suggestions.

This, I can thank you for.

Thank you!

Erock25

Natjur wrote: »

My post was Sorc SELF healing = endless with crit surc, and running group runs, AS the healer, I have never run out of mana, due to always using my mana recovery skills (which templar's don't have)

So you are saying you use Dark Conversion while healing in group pve? I find it terrible and would still rather use Spell Symmetry any day. Channeling a spell for 5-6 seconds to have zero stamina for dodge rolls is BAD.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

I want sorcs to be awesome healer so people are not pigeon holed into templar, but if they can out heal me for every long boss fight just by spamming more spells then I can possible hope to, then something is wrong.
at the end of the day sorcs cast more heals and people want them healing.

Competitive trial group Sorc are NOT, I repeat NOT, using Dark Conversion. If Sorc isn't using Dark Conversion then compared to Temp, the magicka sustainability is even.

Talketzanto wrote: »

What about nightblades

What about the class topping charts tied for first in PVE DPS and doing extremely well in PVP?

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi folks,

We hear you loud and clear about the need for resource management improvements for Templars. We're looking into what we can do there, too, and appreciate your suggestions.

I hope you are taking into account the actual facts and not people comparing to other classes erroneously.

madangrypally

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom

What about what was posted to PTS a few weeks ago. I do not see these listed on this update and did they get scrapped?


Puncturing Sweep: Added self healing based on amount of damage caused.

Empowering Sweep: Added damage reduction and removed the armor. Based on amount of targets hit.

Rite of Passage: Added CC immunity while channeled.

Are those still scheduled for patch? These should be added to that list if so. These changes are major IMO>

Natjur

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi folks,

We hear you loud and clear about the need for resource management improvements for Templars. We're looking into what we can do there, too, and appreciate your suggestions.

This is all we needed to know, that its been looked at. Even if you do not change anything as you think its balanced. We just want to know that in your view, its been reviewed and you happy with it compared to the other classes

Thank you

Inco

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi folks,

We hear you loud and clear about the need for resource management improvements for Templars. We're looking into what we can do there, too, and appreciate your suggestions.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌ thank you for that update! Nice to see you still keep an eye on everything.

Meanwhile.. Suggestion(s) I would make are very specific to the Templar class as that is where REGEN is the biggest issue.

First: DO NOT apply this to RESTRO STAFF, but to the class itself.

Second: "Restoring Light" tree I would seriously increase the PASSIVE skills to include an update to "Focused Healing" passive. Adding a large Magicka Regen equal to and only from CRIT Heals.

Third: Add Magicka Regen into 2nd row of ACTIVE's across all three skills (Only when that skill is used) and on MORPHS only. Piercing Javelin, Solar Flare, Healing Ritual and heck maybe any of the ACTIVE spells, but you get the idea. Prevents abuse when used for specific skill line.

Fourth: Add to Templar PASSIVE a similar bonus like Mages Guild gets when you SLOT multiple Restoring Light items you get larger Magicka Regen buffs and/or costs decrease.

Fifth: Focused Healing Passive - Add a Bonus for RESTORATION Staff use when recovering Magicka (I mean like 50% bump in what we get back), but don't increase the amount of damage done (Healer specific item). This item ALONE might help REGEN DPS and HEALS if done right. Little bit like the "Destruction Expert" below, but really more "Healing Expert" type setup.

Sixth: Same as #5, but for DPS Tree something like "Destruction Expert" from the Destruction Staff needs to be added to Aedric Spear and Dawn's Wrath tree's. Today the destruction staff is awesome regen and for a SORC/DK that have good REGEN on top of that it's crazy cool REGEN.

SoulScream

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi folks,

We hear you loud and clear about the need for resource management improvements for Templars. We're looking into what we can do there, too, and appreciate your suggestions.

Thank you for communicated with us about these improvements!

Cogo

Inco wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi folks,

We hear you loud and clear about the need for resource management improvements for Templars. We're looking into what we can do there, too, and appreciate your suggestions.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌ thank you for that update! Nice to see you still keep an eye on everything.

Meanwhile.. Suggestion(s) I would make are very specific to the Templar class as that is where REGEN is the biggest issue.

First: DO NOT apply this to RESTRO STAFF, but to the class itself.

Second: "Restoring Light" tree I would seriously increase the PASSIVE skills to include an update to "Focused Healing" passive. Adding a large Magicka Regen equal to and only from CRIT Heals.

Third: Add Magicka Regen into 2nd row of ACTIVE's across all three skills (Only when that skill is used) and on MORPHS only. Piercing Javelin, Solar Flare, Healing Ritual and heck maybe any of the ACTIVE spells, but you get the idea. Prevents abuse when used for specific skill line.

Fourth: Add to Templar PASSIVE a similar bonus like Mages Guild gets when you SLOT multiple Restoring Light items you get larger Magicka Regen buffs and/or costs decrease.

Fifth: Focused Healing Passive - Add a Bonus for RESTORATION Staff use when recovering Magicka (I mean like 50% bump in what we get back), but don't increase the amount of damage done (Healer specific item). This item ALONE might help REGEN DPS and HEALS if done right. Little bit like the "Destruction Expert" below, but really more "Healing Expert" type setup.

Sixth: Same as #5, but for DPS Tree something like "Destruction Expert" from the Destruction Staff needs to be added to Aedric Spear and Dawn's Wrath tree's. Today the destruction staff is awesome regen and for a SORC/DK that have good REGEN on top of that it's crazy cool REGEN.

I had to ask one of our guild healer templar about whats wrong with magika regen. Since she heals pretty damn well in our Vet groups.

Her words where "Pff, teach them to not spam heal".

I have not played a templar, but played with em and I know several. Are your suggestions meant to keep your Magika at 100% no matter if you chain cast spells?

I can only relate to my stamina pool which I use a lot in tanking. There is NOTHING wrong with stamina regen. You just have to control your usage better.
Maybe its different for a tank, but if it so bad, that what you are suggesting is needed, it would seam to be that templars have no magika at all?

Are you suggesting one or all of your suggestions to be needed?


And please explain this:

First: DO NOT apply this to RESTRO STAFF, but to the class itself.

I can understand that if a class skills are "broken" and needs to be looked for balancing.
But WHAT have anything regarding Templars broken abilities to do with not applying to a resto staff?

tplink3r1

wrong topic

Natjur

I don't think the templars can post how to fix our dps or mana regen, just ask for the dev's to look at it, which they have now said they are.

My Templar Tank build works fine and the dps and mana regen need 'twinks' but any large change will just make us too powerful.

Only the dev's have the best view over all (they have all the stats) and they even get it wrong, but I am just glad we are on their radar.

Getting a balance on the three play styles (solo, grouped, pvp) and the three builds (tank, healer, dps) for all four classes.......Glad that is not my job

Inco

First off - generic "pfft", but yes she is totally right on people spamming heals and needing some control. During the longer fights (AA) it's difficult to keep enough magicka to group heal and pop the much needed ultimate required every other time (If not every time) during heavy AOE heals. If you do ANY amount of DPS you dip into that pool as well. As to her running Vet content with your guild that's cool - not a lot of guilds taking more than one Templar into AA or others. Dungeons.. different ball game as well PVP is also fairly unbalanced. Go read the dozen or more posts in forums for better examples (I'm tossing them off the top of my head ATM).

Seriously you are asking about 100% - NO that would be pretty sad, but more like 50% would be significant. What would be appropriate would be something like SORC's have and DK's have. As a SORC I can run around with my DESTRO Staff and get magicka BACK just for killing something. Healing... yea...

Okay... DO NO APPLY to Restro is meant to keep the changes I've suggested from creating a 2nd Series of balance issues in other classes that also run around with the Restro staff. By keeping the "Balancing" within the bounds of just the Templar class (Which almost everyone agrees needs help) you can truly balance out the classes and not create an adjustment or rework in other classes later on down the road.

I merely making SUGGESTIONS.. as requested! We're looking into what we can do there, too, and appreciate your suggestions.

Seriously doubt we would get more than ONE or maybe TWO of those changes if lucky, but I made them to open the door of ideas. ZOS can nitpick and tweak those in any fashion they like.

Dissentinel

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Templars should be able to do every bit as much damage as Nightblades and be able to tank just as well as a Dragonknight. The whole concept of this game was that any class can do anything.

That is why I am not bothered if Sorcerers, Dragonknights or Nightblades can heal as well as (currently better than) Templars.

I completely agree with every other point you made

If you did as much damage as a Nightblade, you'd probably be dealing the same or less damage unless you had the perfect rotation. Sorcerers and DKs can put up higher DPS easily. It irks me a little to see some of these comments because it's not just Templars with poor resource management. I find those that want to use both weapon and magic skills are facing the worst case of resource management and are forced to lose some Magicka and Stamina as they try balancing the two out.

pez8897nub19_ESO

All this talk about healing staffs for Templars and I don't have one. Do I need one? I'm VR1. Thanks ESO for the changes/improvements. I will use them to their fullest.

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO

Natjur wrote: »

I don't think the templars can post how to fix our dps or mana regen, just ask for the dev's to look at it, which they have now said they are.

My Templar Tank build works fine and the dps and mana regen need 'twinks' but any large change will just make us too powerful.

Only the dev's have the best view over all (they have all the stats) and they even get it wrong, but I am just glad we are on their radar.

Getting a balance on the three play styles (solo, grouped, pvp) and the three builds (tank, healer, dps) for all four classes.......Glad that is not my job

I disagree, they should buff all my Templar's DPS abilities by no less than 80%

There could be no possible problems with this method and you can trust my word as I am the son of a car salesman.