Why don't we receive AP for killing keep guards, mages, archers, etc?

LonePirate

Does anyone know why we do not receive Alliance Points for killing the NPC guards, mages, archers and such that protect keeps and resources? We receive XP/VP for killing them so why not AP as well?

Halrloprillalar

Because AvA is already Pve-ey enough. Add any more incentive and it will turn into a pve grindfest of flipping

LonePirate

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

Because AvA is already Pve-ey enough. Add any more incentive and it will turn into a pve grindfest of flipping

So the Emperor flipping along with the AP gained by repairing walls or hiding in a keep that is under attack are perfectly fine for you; but defeating some of the toughest enemies in the game, is not? Those super elite guards are tougher to kill than most VR players and you think it is perfectly fine that they offer no AP? The guards already offer XP/VP and that hasn't turned them into grind feats. I am not sure why adding AP rewards to them would suddenly transform the situation. I guess you and I completely disagree on this issue.

They don't need to reward 10,000 AP or something outlandish; but 100-200 AP is so minimal in the grand scheme of things that it seems like a reasonable request.

Halrloprillalar

LonePirate wrote: »

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

Because AvA is already Pve-ey enough. Add any more incentive and it will turn into a pve grindfest of flipping

So the Emperor flipping along with the AP gained by repairing walls or hiding in a keep that is under attack are perfectly fine for you; but defeating some of the toughest enemies in the game, is not? Those super elite guards are tougher to kill than most VR players and you think it is perfectly fine that they offer no AP? The guards already offer XP/VP and that hasn't turned them into grind feats. I am not sure why adding AP rewards to them would suddenly transform the situation. I guess you and I completely disagree on this issue.

They don't need to reward 10,000 AP or something outlandish; but 100-200 AP is so minimal in the grand scheme of things that it seems like a reasonable request.

Emperor flipping is another topic for another 128891821 threads.

Most people AvA to get as much AP as they can, be it for gear or leaderboards.

The methods you speak of are hardly 'farmable' sources of AP (walls cost a lot more to repair than they give back... unless you want to run out of gold). You can't get that much AP by sitting in a keep and not actually killing people or helping kill people.

I'd be fine with nominal AP rewarded by NPC kills as long as it's not higher AP/time than actual PVP, because I have no desire to run around in a circle killing NPCs over and over... Pretty sure that's what people do in Craglorn.
100 per elite / group size is borderline farmable, seeing as how there's like ~10 of them per point.

Jaxom

Yeah, depending on what the AP values are, you would see groups of 12-20 running around killing NPC's at resources and not flipping it. All you would need is 1 keep. Run to Lumber, Kill everything. Run to Mill, Kill Everything. Run to Farm, Kill Everything. Rinse Repeat. By the time you finished the 3rd resource, the first one would be back up again. On dead Cyrodiil campaigns, this is all you would see.

I like your intentions are good with the suggestion, but it would be abused. Might as well leave it alone at that point.

LonePirate

I think we need some reality with the math here. At 100 AP per kill, a player would need to kill 10,000 of them in order to reach 1,000,000 AP which would not put anyone in the top 10 for a campaign for pretty much all of the campaigns except Celarus. A dedicated zerg of 20 or more players would need several hours to reach 400-500 kills, let alone 10,000. If these NOCs never respawned until the resource or keep changes hands, the problem would take care of itself.

Jaxom

LonePirate wrote: »

I think we need some reality with the math here. At 100 AP per kill, a player would need to kill 10,000 of them in order to reach 1,000,000 AP which would not put anyone in the top 10 for a campaign for pretty much all of the campaigns except Celarus. A dedicated zerg of 20 or more players would need several hours to reach 400-500 kills, let alone 10,000. If these NOCs never respawned until the resource or keep changes hands, the problem would take care of itself.

I think you are underestimating the will of some people. If you include all the guards in and around the resource (not the just 4 on the flag and the 1 mage), there are probably closer to 10-12 per resource. So in maybe 10 minutes, you can flip all 3. If you used 100 AP per mob to keep it clean, that is 3000AP per 10 minutes or 18,000 AP an hour. That's fairly decent in dead campaigns.

Using that math (all hypothetical btw), it would take 55 hours of straight up grinding to get 1Mil AP, which for some people is 5-6 days.

The problem is, having the MOB's not respawn is a solution but also penalizing people legitiamately defending resources. Again, it seems like it would cause more harm than good, unless you made like 5-10 AP per kill. At that point, why even change it?

Kewljag_66_ESO

LonePirate wrote: »

Does anyone know why we do not receive Alliance Points for killing the NPC guards, mages, archers and such that protect keeps and resources? We receive XP/VP for killing them so why not AP as well?

This is a bad idea, other games like Aion did this. And people just go an farm guards at enemy keeps, they dont actually try to take the keep, then they get mad when their side starts to try to capture it.. which is the main goal of the game.

Currently your AP gain and AP title means you generally had to PVP to get that, sure you can do some scouting misssions but you dont get much for them. Add in what you want and those PVP title mean nothing because you can just straight PVE to get them.

Halrloprillalar

Honestly I'd prefer that the NPCs had a chance to drop soul gems or potions instead.

Gisgo

Because you get alliance points for killing players.

LonePirate

People are not farming the NPCs right now for XP/VP which they do provide so I think all of these fears about people farming them if they were to offer AP are completely overblown to Chicken Little proportions. Taking a keep (without the quest) does not offer all that much AP anyway and it's not like every single player in a zerg is going to tag or kill every single NPC at a resource or keep. Scores are going to be reset in a few days anyway so a minimal change like this is not going to impact much at all, especially with the reduced number of campaigns that are coming.

LonePirate

Gisgo wrote: »

Because you get alliance points for killing players.

The vast majority of players are easier to kill than the super elite VR5 NPCs.

Gisgo

LonePirate wrote: »

Gisgo wrote: »

Because you get alliance points for killing players.

The vast majority of players are easier to kill than the super elite VR5 NPCs.

Then it shouldnt be a problem to get APs.

What you are asking for (possibly unaware of it) is the option to farm APs by just camping a resource without taking it.

If anything the DEVs need to close the door for any kind of possible exploit.

Halrloprillalar

LonePirate wrote: »

Gisgo wrote: »

Because you get alliance points for killing players.

The vast majority of players are easier to kill than the super elite VR5 NPCs.

That is the only reason the NPCs aren't being farmed for XP/VP currently

LonePirate

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

Gisgo wrote: »

Because you get alliance points for killing players.

The vast majority of players are easier to kill than the super elite VR5 NPCs.

That is the only reason the NPCs aren't being farmed for XP/VP currently

Adding 100 AP per kill won't change that, either.

nukeyoo

Objectives offer little rewards when undefended because there is a lack of PvP. When objectives are defended and then captured their capture reward is therefore increased due to PvP.

Alliance points are rewarded for PvP related scenarios. Repairing of walls/doors rewards AP because otherwise there would be a lack of people willing to waste their AP/gold for repair kits and keeps would remain broken.

If you want rewards for PvE every other zone can provide that for you.
Cyrodiil is a place for PvP.

LonePirate

nukeyoo wrote: »

Objectives offer little rewards when undefended because there is a lack of PvP. When objectives are defended and then captured their capture reward is therefore increased due to PvP.

Alliance points are rewarded for PvP related scenarios. Repairing of walls/doors rewards AP because otherwise there would be a lack of people willing to waste their AP/gold for repair kits and keeps would remain broken.

If you want rewards for PvE every other zone can provide that for you.
Cyrodiil is a place for PvP.

I'd say you are arguing for the removal of XP/VP from these NPCs if you don't want these NPCs to offer AP upon kills because it would make them too much like a PVE reward. Am I wrong or are you being inconsistent in your views?

Gisgo

Why would you like the guards to reward alliance points anyway?

What was your plan?

Halrloprillalar

LonePirate wrote: »

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

Gisgo wrote: »

Because you get alliance points for killing players.

The vast majority of players are easier to kill than the super elite VR5 NPCs.

That is the only reason the NPCs aren't being farmed for XP/VP currently

Adding 100 AP per kill won't change that, either.

Maybe. Maybe not. The bottom line is, the lack of said reward hasn't stopped people from capping resources.

"If it ain't broke"

nukeyoo

LonePirate wrote: »

nukeyoo wrote: »

Objectives offer little rewards when undefended because there is a lack of PvP. When objectives are defended and then captured their capture reward is therefore increased due to PvP.

Alliance points are rewarded for PvP related scenarios. Repairing of walls/doors rewards AP because otherwise there would be a lack of people willing to waste their AP/gold for repair kits and keeps would remain broken.

If you want rewards for PvE every other zone can provide that for you.
Cyrodiil is a place for PvP.

I'd say you are arguing for the removal of XP/VP from these NPCs if you don't want these NPCs to offer AP upon kills because it would make them too much like a PVE reward. Am I wrong or are you being inconsistent in your views?

Please quote the line where I said XP/VP should be removed? Proper reading comprehension would dictate that the comment stated AP is rewarded for PvP. The fact that NPC or Player kills reward PvE rewards such as XP/VP is not mentioned what so ever.

You are asking for AP for PvE. Insert my comment regarding AP/PvP. You following or do I need to type slower for you?

LonePirate

Gisgo wrote: »

Why would you like the guards to reward alliance points anyway?

What was your plan?

I actually think they should offer AP instead of XP/VP; but that would likely generate an uproar. So, I think offering both XP/VP and AP would be a better approach than offering nothing. My preferred rewards:

1. AP only as this is a PVP zone and not a PVE zone
2. XP/VP and AP
3. XP/VP only
4. Gold or loot only
5. Nothing

strongoakb14a_ESO

I would say it is most likely due to the fact zerg groups would just go to keeps, kill the NPCs and move on avoiding the oil pot group of players right inside the keep. Exploit-ability is your answer.

Gisgo

LonePirate wrote: »

Gisgo wrote: »

Why would you like the guards to reward alliance points anyway?

What was your plan?

I actually think they should offer AP instead of XP/VP; but that would likely generate an uproar. So, I think offering both XP/VP and AP would be a better approach than offering nothing. My preferred rewards:

1. AP only as this is a PVP zone and not a PVE zone
2. XP/VP and AP
3. XP/VP only
4. Gold or loot only
5. Nothing

How about no?
If you want AP, go out and kill players.

Its really really an easy concept.
Its not about being in a pvp zone, its about killing real players.
If you are in a pvp zone but you do pve, you shouldnt get a pvp reward.

LonePirate

nukeyoo wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

nukeyoo wrote: »

Objectives offer little rewards when undefended because there is a lack of PvP. When objectives are defended and then captured their capture reward is therefore increased due to PvP.

Alliance points are rewarded for PvP related scenarios. Repairing of walls/doors rewards AP because otherwise there would be a lack of people willing to waste their AP/gold for repair kits and keeps would remain broken.

If you want rewards for PvE every other zone can provide that for you.
Cyrodiil is a place for PvP.

I'd say you are arguing for the removal of XP/VP from these NPCs if you don't want these NPCs to offer AP upon kills because it would make them too much like a PVE reward. Am I wrong or are you being inconsistent in your views?

Please quote the line where I said XP/VP should be removed? Proper reading comprehension would dictate that the comment stated AP is rewarded for PvP. The fact that NPC or Player kills reward PvE rewards such as XP/VP is not mentioned what so ever.

You are asking for AP for PvE. Insert my comment regarding AP/PvP. You following or do I need to type slower for you?

Your entire post was about earning AP for PVP related activities but somehow you carved out an exception for repairs while intentionally excluding AP from these NPCs. No one is taking a keep or resource - the purpose of PVP in Cyrodiil - without killing these NPCs. These are not PVE NPCs. They are PVP NPCs. You then went on to criticize PVE rewards in the PVP zone so a kindergartner could follow the logical breadcrumbs that suggest you would be opposed to XP/VP from being received for a PVP activity - and killing these NPCs while trying to capture a resource or keep is a PVP activity.

Gisgo

LonePirate wrote: »

These are not PVE NPCs. They are PVP NPCs.

For the 425034572345723045th time on this forum:

PvP means Player versus player.
NPC means non playing character.

There is no such thing as a "PVP NPC".
If you are fighting an NPC, then you are doing PVE, and there is no way around it.

LonePirate

Gisgo wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

Gisgo wrote: »

Why would you like the guards to reward alliance points anyway?

What was your plan?

I actually think they should offer AP instead of XP/VP; but that would likely generate an uproar. So, I think offering both XP/VP and AP would be a better approach than offering nothing. My preferred rewards:

1. AP only as this is a PVP zone and not a PVE zone
2. XP/VP and AP
3. XP/VP only
4. Gold or loot only
5. Nothing

How about no?
If you want AP, go out and kill players.

Its really really an easy concept.
Its not about being in a pvp zone, its about killing real players.
If you are in a pvp zone but you do pve, you shouldnt get a pvp reward.

I can respect an opinion advocating for AP only for player kills. That being said, killing these NPCs is part of the PVP experience. You cannot take a resource or keep without killing them. The entire PVP premise of this game is based upon taking resources and keeps. It is not based on killing players. Killing players is merely a secondary objective and it is not required at all in this PVP zone.

Gisgo

LonePirate wrote: »

The entire PVP premise of this game is based upon taking resources and keeps. It is not based on killing players. Killing players is merely a secondary objective and it is not required at all in this PVP zone.

While i agree with you the premise of the game is taking resources and keeps, the moment you reward players for taking objectives say goodbye to your pvp, because nobody will fight anymore, they will just avoid each other and go for the easiest (undefended, empty) objective.

LonePirate

Gisgo wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

These are not PVE NPCs. They are PVP NPCs.

For the 425034572345723045th time on this forum:

PvP means Player versus player.
NPC means non playing character.

There is no such thing as a "PVP NPC".
If you are fighting an NPC, then you are doing PVE, and there is no way around it.

The entire PVP experience is based on the premse of capturing keeps and resources, not killing players. You cannot capture one of these without killing these NPCs. Killing players - the actual PVP - is completely optional and is not required to perform and complete the objectives in this PVP zone. If you want to hide behind semantics, then so be it. That does not change the fact that the primary objectives in this PVP zone require tasks which offer no PVP zone reward.

Gisgo

Its not semantic its gameplay; i think you didnt play enough RvR/AvA games to understand what happens if you reward killing NPCs and taking objectives rather than fighting players.

It becomes dull, and dies.

nukeyoo

LonePirate wrote: »

nukeyoo wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

nukeyoo wrote: »

Objectives offer little rewards when undefended because there is a lack of PvP. When objectives are defended and then captured their capture reward is therefore increased due to PvP.

Alliance points are rewarded for PvP related scenarios. Repairing of walls/doors rewards AP because otherwise there would be a lack of people willing to waste their AP/gold for repair kits and keeps would remain broken.

If you want rewards for PvE every other zone can provide that for you.
Cyrodiil is a place for PvP.

I'd say you are arguing for the removal of XP/VP from these NPCs if you don't want these NPCs to offer AP upon kills because it would make them too much like a PVE reward. Am I wrong or are you being inconsistent in your views?

Please quote the line where I said XP/VP should be removed? Proper reading comprehension would dictate that the comment stated AP is rewarded for PvP. The fact that NPC or Player kills reward PvE rewards such as XP/VP is not mentioned what so ever.

You are asking for AP for PvE. Insert my comment regarding AP/PvP. You following or do I need to type slower for you?

Your entire post was about earning AP for PVP related activities but somehow you carved out an exception for repairs while intentionally excluding AP from these NPCs. No one is taking a keep or resource - the purpose of PVP in Cyrodiil - without killing these NPCs. These are not PVE NPCs. They are PVP NPCs. You then went on to criticize PVE rewards in the PVP zone so a kindergartner could follow the logical breadcrumbs that suggest you would be opposed to XP/VP from being received for a PVP activity - and killing these NPCs while trying to capture a resource or keep is a PVP activity.

El oh el wow you're reaching.. besides that apparently you don't quite grasp the concepts of the acronyms PvP and PvE let me get Wiki to try and educate you.

Wikipedia wrote:

Player versus environment, or PvE (also known as Player versus Monster, or PvM in some communities), is a term used in online games, particularly MMORPGs, CORPGs, MUDs, and other online role-playing video games, to refer to fighting computer-controlled enemies[1]—in contrast to PvP (player versus player).

Usually a PvE mode can be played alone, with human companions or with AI companions. The PvE mode may contain a storyline that is narrated as the player progresses through missions. It may also contain missions that may be done in any order. For example, Guild Wars narrates its story by displaying in-game cut scenes and dialogue with non-playable characters (NPCs). To enhance replayability, missions can often be completed many times. Characters playing in this mode are often protected against being killed by other players and/or having their possessions stolen. An example of a game where this is not the case is Eve Online, where players can be, and often are, ambushed by other human players player versus player while attempting to complete a quest. Some games, such as World of Warcraft, offer the player the choice of participating in open-world PvP combat or doing quests without PvP interruption through use of specialty servers and temporary player flags.

Player(s) versus player(s), or PvP, is a type of multiplayer interactive conflict within a game between two or more live participants.[1] This is in contrast to games where players compete against computer controlled opponents, which is correspondingly referred to as player versus environment (PvE). The terms are most often used in games where both activities exist,[2] particularly MMORPGs, MUDs, and other role-playing video games.

PvP can be broadly used to describe any game, or aspect of a game, where players compete against each other. In computer role-playing games, PvP is sometimes called player killing or PKing.

After Wiki's education do you see any flaws with this quote of yours below?

LonePirate wrote:

These are not PVE NPCs. They are PVP NPCs.

derp

Halrloprillalar

LonePirate wrote: »

Gisgo wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

Gisgo wrote: »

Why would you like the guards to reward alliance points anyway?

What was your plan?

I actually think they should offer AP instead of XP/VP; but that would likely generate an uproar. So, I think offering both XP/VP and AP would be a better approach than offering nothing. My preferred rewards:

1. AP only as this is a PVP zone and not a PVE zone
2. XP/VP and AP
3. XP/VP only
4. Gold or loot only
5. Nothing

How about no?
If you want AP, go out and kill players.

Its really really an easy concept.
Its not about being in a pvp zone, its about killing real players.
If you are in a pvp zone but you do pve, you shouldnt get a pvp reward.

I can respect an opinion advocating for AP only for player kills. That being said, killing these NPCs is part of the PVP experience. You cannot take a resource or keep without killing them. The entire PVP premise of this game is based upon taking resources and keeps. It is not based on killing players. Killing players is merely a secondary objective and it is not required at all in this PVP zone.

I'm pretty sure the premise of 'player vs. player' is killing, stopping, ganking, griefing, farming, flanking and otherwise outplaying players.

PVE can be found everywhere else but Cyrodiil. I would prefer to keep the PVE out of my PVP as much as possible.