Overall Gameplay too difficult?

Cogo

Alphashado wrote: »

Yeah it's very sad. I do a lot of recruiting for my trading guild in order to keep it active. The GM had to boot another 10 members today for inactivity. He gives them either 10 or 30 days depending on what rank they are in the guild. But I look at the roster and there are so many at 7 days, 8 days, 9 days.... and so many at 27 days, 28 days, 29 days..

Obviously this isn't the only issue, but it's a big one. And it's the silent one. It takes gonads to admit to a gaming community that you find the game too hard because of the outlash.

Honestly I have been involved with plenty of other mmo launches where people were saying it was too hard and I was on the other side of the isle because I really didn't think so.

But this is different. Much different.

ESO has such huge potential. I don't want to leave. I don't want anymore of my friends to leave. I want ESO to succeed. But I can see the writing on the wall. The game needs some drastic changes to VR trash mob difficulty, drastic changes to class balance, drastic changes to phasing and the way grouping works on quests.

I agree! And Look! The next 2 patch is doing just what you ask for!

People leave new games when they dont like it. Every MMO has that.
There are new people playing, and players lvl 40 - Vet 8 who simply looking for a guild where people like the game.

How do I know? Picked up a few lately in our guild.

Cogo

LonePirate wrote: »

@Merlin13KAGL

People are not complaining about the game's difficulty in the 1-50 zones. The problems are with the VR content. Outleveling is not an option as there is little difference between the levels. Also, most people keep their gear maxed out with optimum buffs while in VR levels.

Your solutions for the 1-50 crowd are not applicable to VR levels, unfortunately.

If this is true. Are players who I talk to (Highend vets), lying when they say they done an event, trial or whatever in Graglorn?

ArRashid

SilverWF wrote: »

Overall gameplay is abasolutely NOT difficult to ANY class and spec.

yes, lvl 1-30 can be done by a troll with 1 skill. Have you actually leveled higher? Tried to solo VR elite Storm Atronach or Lich? Certainly not EVERY skill and spec can do it. Maybe 2% would be true.

Dayv

@Cogo‌, you appear to be of the opinion that the game is close to flawless in terms of difficulty and people just need to adjust their tastes. That isn't going to work. Even if the mobs on average are of the correct toughness, the way they are distributed is skewed. For this game to have a large and happy player base, there's got to be some compromise that gives everybody something they can enjoy doing.

Tough, challenging content is a good thing, but it's not for everyone all the time and what is a faceroll to someone is a near death experience to others. People aren't going to improve when they feel like there is a brick wall in front of them. They'll just unsub. I Friends of mine did. They didn't come to the forums a whine, they just quietly left. Some people might be happy to just play lower level alts, but for a lot of players, the very essence of an rpg is character development. Throw a brick wall up in front of people and they will lose interest and leave.

Hilgara

Cogo wrote: »

Its not impossible that I have to rethink the whole thing in Craglorn........but in ESO, your play skill actually matters.....

This is the fulcrum this whole argument is balanced on. Should player skill matter? Not just in dungeons but as a requirement to achieve a high level. For me achieving a high level should be an indication of the level of skill the player has. And before anyone asks, yeah I would stop the anomaly exploits in a heart beat, or any other means to circumvent the game.

Cogo

@Dayv

Fair enough. I didnt see it that way. As long as there is "hard" encounters in Craglorn.....maybe it should be "normal" difficulty too.

I do think one sided at times. Yeah, casual players should have something to do in Graglorn, but not expecting to faceroll a trial.

steveb16_ESO46

Soothy wrote: »

@steveb16_ESO46 - As you posted as I was editing, it's 45% of whoever reads the forum threads. I'd argue that most of the playerbase doesn't read the Forum.

Sure but as H was working on the assumption it was reasonably valid and it is the best info we have) I was pointing out the corollary.

'Casual' isn't the right term. I'm by no means a 'casual' MMO player. It's just that the insane difficulty of VR trash has shifted the goal posts so much that suddenly, just because I don't want to adopt a build and tactics I have no interest in playing and don't think dying repeatedly is a reasonable tactic, I'm nw 'casual'.

As far as i'm concerned if a reasonably skilled player or group of players using reasonable builds cannot do any content without requiring dozens of soul gems then the content is wrong.

Trash mobs should kill you if you're careless not if you're not perfect.

A game has to be fun. some degree of challenge is part of that fun. The real challenge should come in voluntary instanced content and only there.

quite frankly I think the % of people who will sub only if the difficulty level is Insane and will leave if it isn't is tiny. I further believe that the number of people who will let their subs lapse and walk away if drastic changes aren't made is much more substantial.

I don't believe the current financial model can sustain itself if the non-hard core continue to walk away.

Ninnghizhidda

Hilgara wrote: »

Cogo wrote: »

Its not impossible that I have to rethink the whole thing in Craglorn........but in ESO, your play skill actually matters.....

This is the fulcrum this whole argument is balanced on. Should player skill matter? Not just in dungeons but as a requirement to achieve a high level. For me achieving a high level should be an indication of the level of skill the player has. And before anyone asks, yeah I would stop the anomaly exploits in a heart beat, or any other means to circumvent the game.

Just one second... Achieving high levels or actually the top level certainly does not mean you are either highly skilled, ultra competitive, "super-pro" or a "genius player".

It just means you put the effort and time needed to get through the quests needed, or, as is the case in many "grind fest MMOs" grind your bum off for months or even years.

Perhaps in the process you become more skillful. Perhaps, you also do the "hardcore" material as well, thus acquiring the "uber" gear and feeling accomplished and recognised.

However, every "average" or "casual" player is and should be perfectly capable of reaching the "highest level".

A good game will allow this without excessive amounts of grief. A fail game will make the whole process a horrible and miserable experience, hence it FAILS.

If you really want challenges that will test skills, wit and good use of mechanics, builds and skills (assuming there is balance), then you will have dungeons, raids and all that, even hardmode versions. People will go there for the absolutely top gear that will give that little extra bit of edge, test their capabilities and feel proud they can do it. But, HEY, in every good game, the hard, above the average (or plainly punishing) difficulty material, is NOT the norm, and is not for everyone. It is there, and must be there, for those who want to try it.

Make it hard for everyone, and soon you will just not have everyone anymore. In fact you end up having those few % "hardcore" players only. This is where and when games, otherwise with great intentions, fail and even pull the plug.

I am sure none of us wishes for this fate for ESO. And perhaps this is why we are here "moaning", that maybe action will be taken timely, before it goes beyond repair.

Hilgara

Ninnghizhidda wrote: »

Make it hard for everyone, and soon you will just not have everyone anymore. In fact you end up having those few % "hardcore" players only. This is where and when games, otherwise with great intentions, fail and even pull the plug.

I am sure none of us wishes for this fate for ESO. And perhaps this is why we are here "moaning", that maybe action will be taken timely, before it goes beyond repair.

Again I refer you to the poll in this forum where over 50% of people disagree with your shot in the dark % "hardcore players" And again you are categorising anyone who can manage the content has hardcore. Those 50 odd percent aren't all elite hardcore obsessives. They are mostly casual players who have figured the game out and spent some time learning their class. This argument is getting old. The same paper thin reasoning keeps getting beaten to death.
IF YOU CAN PLAY WELL YOU ARE HARDCORE IF YOU CANT YOU ARE CASUAL.

Utter rubbish!

steveb16_ESO46

Again I refer you to the poll where a game-killing 45% disagreed.

Catman14

The fact that people are moaning about how difficult ESO is (me included at times!) is typical of today's gaming community.

I used to moan about how "the kids" all have A.D.D. and want instant gratification without working for it. That they have no imagination and don't immerse themselves in the game, just seeing it as a programme they "have" to beat at all costs.

But I've stopped doing all that stuff and I've just accepted that gamers like me (over 50) are dinosaurs and while I'd jump at a modernised Ultima Online with thieving, corpse looting and "acceptable" griefing; I have to accept that most gamers these days want everything now, want everything safe, and want everything free.

I suppose that's evolution. :-)

Hilgara

steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »

Again I refer you to the poll where a game-killing 45% disagreed.

The poll actually shows quite a good normal distribution curv. A small % find it very difficult a small % find it very easy and the majority somewhere in the middle. If it were on a bell curv graph it would be almost perfect normal distribution. There are improvements that can be made but there are other things that need fixed first. Class balance being one. If the weaker classes were balanced then a lot of these people struggling would move into the "challenging but doable" camp.

Magdalina

Hilgara wrote: »

Ninnghizhidda wrote: »

Make it hard for everyone, and soon you will just not have everyone anymore. In fact you end up having those few % "hardcore" players only. This is where and when games, otherwise with great intentions, fail and even pull the plug.

I am sure none of us wishes for this fate for ESO. And perhaps this is why we are here "moaning", that maybe action will be taken timely, before it goes beyond repair.

Again I refer you to the poll in this forum where over 50% of people disagree with your shot in the dark % "hardcore players" And again you are categorising anyone who can manage the content has hardcore. Those 50 odd percent aren't all elite hardcore obsessives. They are mostly casual players who have figured the game out and spent some time learning their class. This argument is getting old. The same paper thin reasoning keeps getting beaten to death.
IF YOU CAN PLAY WELL YOU ARE HARDCORE IF YOU CANT YOU ARE CASUAL.

Utter rubbish!

Hilgara, let's forget a poll(not like we know they all voted truthfully, and they're a very small percentage of population anyway) for a minute. Let's just go to those damn vet zones and see how many people there are.
I think you know what I'm talking about and I think it speaks for itself.

Ninnghizhidda

Hilgara wrote: »

Ninnghizhidda wrote: »

Make it hard for everyone, and soon you will just not have everyone anymore. In fact you end up having those few % "hardcore" players only. This is where and when games, otherwise with great intentions, fail and even pull the plug.

I am sure none of us wishes for this fate for ESO. And perhaps this is why we are here "moaning", that maybe action will be taken timely, before it goes beyond repair.

Again I refer you to the poll in this forum where over 50% of people disagree with your shot in the dark % "hardcore players" And again you are categorising anyone who can manage the content has hardcore. Those 50 odd percent aren't all elite hardcore obsessives. They are mostly casual players who have figured the game out and spent some time learning their class. This argument is getting old. The same paper thin reasoning keeps getting beaten to death.
IF YOU CAN PLAY WELL YOU ARE HARDCORE IF YOU CANT YOU ARE CASUAL.

Utter rubbish!

I thought my post was pretty clear about who I believe is the "hardcore player", if we really need to use labels. Or rather, what the "hardcore content" should be.

It is just my humble opinion, there is not even a need to agree. All this has been "tried and tested" during many years of MMOs, and it is also well documented where games have succeeded and where others have failed.

And in the end this is what matters and what is recorded in history. Good intentions, wishful thinking and broken dreams that just lead to an ultimate failure, are, well, irrelevant.

Also, a random, generic "poll" in a forum, is not exactly a referendum, is it. Not when even real elections can not fully reflect the true picture, but only a partial one from those who voted.

The real outcome, unfortunately, is usually determined by other factors as well, quite important, factors that "analyst brains" quite often fail to consider. For example... the "silent vote".

If you get 90% of the people quitting the game, then you might end up wondering what the hell happened "when everyone was so happy", and the ship sank like lead. Yep, they were ... the "silent vote" (but very real and coughing up real money).

Hilgara

Magdalina wrote: »

Hilgara, let's forget a poll(not like we know they all voted truthfully, and they're a very small percentage of population anyway) for a minute. Let's just go to those damn vet zones and see how many people there are.
I think you know what I'm talking about and I think it speaks for itself.

Yeah lets forget the poll and instead take the opinions in this thread as representative. Since after all, this is where people come to complain and therefore must be full of people who are quite happily playing the game ....

There are less people than at launch yes. That is absolutely normal. The game is all phased content so you are not seeing everyone in your zone, you are seeing people in your phase. It's absolutely reasonable that there may only be a limited number of people in exactly the same place as you on exactly the same part of a quest line and in exactly the same phase. This was not normal at launch. It is now. This is how the game will play from now on.

Ragefist

Oh boy, this again. There are people actually complaining that combat is engaging and not a mindless grind. Well I guess you will have to live with it. It it was dumb boring grind the rest 98% of us who enjoy it would complain.

Go play some WoW I guess? They will feed you spoonfuls of Easy nice and slowly

Reykice

They should rename this thread to "How many of you are really bad players unable to complete a game on anything else but EASY or VERY EASY?"

Kwas

Ragefist wrote: »

Oh boy, this again. There are people actually complaining that combat is engaging and not a mindless grind. Well I guess you will have to live with it. It it was dumb boring grind the rest 98% of us who enjoy it would complain.

Go play some WoW I guess? They will feed you spoonfuls of Easy nice and slowly

Actually it is a mindless grind vs. "artificially difficult" mobs, more than engaging combat.

Inflating HP/DPS is not the way to go ...

Souls did it right, ESO not so much.

Hilgara

Kwas wrote: »

Ragefist wrote: »

Oh boy, this again. There are people actually complaining that combat is engaging and not a mindless grind. Well I guess you will have to live with it. It it was dumb boring grind the rest 98% of us who enjoy it would complain.

Go play some WoW I guess? They will feed you spoonfuls of Easy nice and slowly

Actually it is a mindless grind vs. "artificially difficult" mobs, more than engaging combat.

Inflating HP/DPS is not the way to go ...

Souls did it right, ESO not so much.

you guys really need to make your mind up. In one breath its "I keep getting one shotted" and in the next it. "The content is boring" it's either too difficult (see thread title) or its boring. I play chess I never had a difficult game that was boring. I've had loads of easy ones that were though.

Dayv

Ragefist wrote: »

Oh boy, this again. There are people actually complaining that combat is engaging and not a mindless grind. Well I guess you will have to live with it. It it was dumb boring grind the rest 98% of us who enjoy it would complain.

Go play some WoW I guess? They will feed you spoonfuls of Easy nice and slowly

While we're exaggerating, is that 98%, the remaining 4 players.

Hilgara

Dayv wrote: »

Ragefist wrote: »

Oh boy, this again. There are people actually complaining that combat is engaging and not a mindless grind. Well I guess you will have to live with it. It it was dumb boring grind the rest 98% of us who enjoy it would complain.

Go play some WoW I guess? They will feed you spoonfuls of Easy nice and slowly

While we're exaggerating, is that 98%, the remaining 4 players.

That would mean the remaining 2% would be...maybe a finger tip...or something equally gruesome.....math much?

Magdalina

Hilgara wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Hilgara, let's forget a poll(not like we know they all voted truthfully, and they're a very small percentage of population anyway) for a minute. Let's just go to those damn vet zones and see how many people there are.
I think you know what I'm talking about and I think it speaks for itself.

Yeah lets forget the poll and instead take the opinions in this thread as representative. Since after all, this is where people come to complain and therefore must be full of people who are quite happily playing the game ....

There are less people than at launch yes. That is absolutely normal. The game is all phased content so you are not seeing everyone in your zone, you are seeing people in your phase. It's absolutely reasonable that there may only be a limited number of people in exactly the same place as you on exactly the same part of a quest line and in exactly the same phase. This was not normal at launch. It is now. This is how the game will play from now on.

There's no need to snap at me when I'm trying to be constructive:) I've taken your words into consideration and you're right - this thread alone is no more valid than that poll. Maybe a bit more because it's easier to lie in a poll than a post, but let's assume we're all 100% honest here. Clearly, the only thing really indicative of anything is game itself.

No, it is not empty in non vet zones, it is not empty in Craglorn, it's VET that is empty, and I pray to gods it doesn't stay like that "from now on". I don't believe you didn't notice, I think you just don't want to admit. Go to your alliance last zone. Lots of ppl, lively chat. Go to Coldharbour. Lots of ppl, lively chat. Go to any vet zone, especially higher ones and...barely a person an hour, zone chat is almost dead, same requests for help get repeated for hours.

Dayv

Hilgara wrote: »

Dayv wrote: »

Ragefist wrote: »

Oh boy, this again. There are people actually complaining that combat is engaging and not a mindless grind. Well I guess you will have to live with it. It it was dumb boring grind the rest 98% of us who enjoy it would complain.

Go play some WoW I guess? They will feed you spoonfuls of Easy nice and slowly

While we're exaggerating, is that 98%, the remaining 4 players.

That would mean the remaining 2% would be...maybe a finger tip...or something equally gruesome.....math much?

Yeah, the fingertip is grinding on, the rest of the body decided to cut their losses.

Stratti

The difficulty is perfect. I can log on for half an hour and be challenged or play a long session and have many challenges. Nothing worse then a game that is so easy that it becomes boring

GreySix

Hilgara wrote: »

silent88b14_ESO wrote: »

So the difficulty looks good to you and, let's say 20% of the player base.

Erm...not according to the poll

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/99207/how-much-trouble-do-you-have-with-veteran-content#latest

I've said all along through this thread. Its the vocal minority having trouble. But you still want to ruin the game for the majority

An optional poll posted within a video game forum is about as useless as teets on a bull.

Shiroro

Hilgara is right about the silent majority being the voice that really matters. The good part is we can see exactly what the silent majority thinks by where they're playing. There's at least a 90% attrition rate by VR2. We know that the majority despises VR questing and refuses to play it because it's so frustrating.

Having nothing else fun to do or grind --> people are just quitting, and people who "take a break" from MMOs that never really hooked them are never coming back.

This and PvP lag are the two top items that Zenimax needs to address right now. Balancing VR difficulty will allow them to stall long enough to add a true endgame but they need to do it now. Even the promised July patch might be too late.

AngryNord

alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »

They should rename this thread to "How many of you are really bad players unable to complete a game on anything else but EASY or VERY EASY?"

They should ban condescending elitists like you

Hilgara

GreySix wrote: »

An optional poll posted within a video game forum is about as useless as teets on a bull.

or about as useless and this thread is representative of the wider player base.

This thing started because some people proposed that the majority of people found the vet content too difficult. I opposed that opinion and still do. This thread no more represents the average players oppinon than I do or that poll does

Kwas

Hilgara wrote: »

you guys really need to make your mind up. In one breath its "I keep getting one shotted" and in the next it. "The content is boring" it's either too difficult (see thread title) or its boring. I play chess I never had a difficult game that was boring. I've had loads of easy ones that were though.

One leads to the other.

If it takes an hour to get through trash just for that 30 second worth of boss fight what's the point?

It's not uncommon that bosses have less hp and deal less damage compared to their trash counterparts...

If I remember correctly, vr7 sword and board mobs have ~4k hp. Just a regular bandit more than doubles my hp. Why?

Average flare hits for ~200 dmg harder than my quick attack. Why?

Hilgara

Magdalina wrote: »

Hilgara wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Hilgara, let's forget a poll(not like we know they all voted truthfully, and they're a very small percentage of population anyway) for a minute. Let's just go to those damn vet zones and see how many people there are.
I think you know what I'm talking about and I think it speaks for itself.

Yeah lets forget the poll and instead take the opinions in this thread as representative. Since after all, this is where people come to complain and therefore must be full of people who are quite happily playing the game ....

There are less people than at launch yes. That is absolutely normal. The game is all phased content so you are not seeing everyone in your zone, you are seeing people in your phase. It's absolutely reasonable that there may only be a limited number of people in exactly the same place as you on exactly the same part of a quest line and in exactly the same phase. This was not normal at launch. It is now. This is how the game will play from now on.

There's no need to snap at me when I'm trying to be constructive:) .

Ok I apologise. So lets be constructive. Some people in this thread are finding the content difficult. Some aren't. The ones that aren't are doing something different from the ones that are (different classes aside of course). Now I have been in the position of those that found it difficult and you know what I did. I asked the ones that didn't for advice. I'm not a theory crafter or hard core. I'm lazy, I stole their ideas. I watched their videos. I read their very informative guides on various forums.

You too can be a lazy bast*rds just like me