Class Balancing - Please stop the nerfs

Singular

captain_awesome wrote: »

We need buffs/fixes to NB and Templar.
We also unfortunately need Nerfs to Sorc and DK to bring the classes together in capability.

No one class should be able to solo 12 man content. If they can then that class has too many force multipliers at its disposal. Its undeniably OP and needs a nerf.

I'm sorry, yu're mistaken. Every class I play should be able to solo 12 man content because...I wish to be awesome.

Goibot

Singular wrote: »

So...where does all this data come from that demonstrates people are leaving the game because of nerfs?

I'm honestly interested.

Data? What do you think I work for ZOS or something? They are pretty closed mouthed with their data. They are pretty closed mouth with their stealth nerfs too. To me it is common sense; when you *** people off to a certain point they leave. They have enough problems in this game to upset quite a bit of people adding the nerfs on top of it will only make it worse.

Tankqull

Goibot wrote: »

I agree, every Stam weapon in the game cannot compare to the magic lines. I went through 3 builds before I figured that out. I am now on my fourth and it includes a Resto and Dest staf. It is hard to bring up two new skill lines at V5.

nope you just have to go to the correct spots... coldharbour is great to lvl your skills...

aunt edith says:

Deinokb16_ESO wrote: »

Even they said it would be xxx.xxx.xxx ways to build your character, when you add content like the trials, all that X builds come to 1 or 2 viable per class, it's in that moment when you see the weaknesses and the opnesses of classes. From my point of view, Templars have been relegated to their heal branch and I think they will remain like that during the whole game.

i would be fine with that if we would actually excell in that - we simply do not.

Nickdorlandb16_ESO

Goibot wrote: »

Our little community is hurting, quite a few people have already left and a lot of others are just riding out their current sub. The reasons are too numerous to list and range from bad customer service to lag in Cyodil and the VR content being very powerful with thousands of problems in between. I want ESO to grow a happy player base where people work together to get things done but that is not what ESO is promoting.

We are now getting to the point where the developers are trying to balance the classes. I think we can all see what two classes are strong and what two are on the short end of the dps list. Every leaderboard and list states it clearly.

The dev's have so far tried to do a balancing act (and very badly) by nerfing whatever they thought was too powerful. First before anything in a skill line is nerfed the line itself should be fixed. The Vamp line for example, it has had a pretty serious nerf to its stages and mist form but the line itself is still broken (just one example).

Next when they slammed the hammer down, they hit one of the weakest skill lines out there. Melee Templars comes to mind with biting jabs. Yes they are going to revert the global cool down back to where it was but they are still going to nerf the cost of it. Why? It defies all logic. I ask again why nerf one of the weakest classes at all?

Now when they get around to nerfing the strongest two classes what is going to happen? I can tell you what happened with the Templar nerf, there was a lot of rage quit and unsub. That nerf still defies all logic. I suspect Sorc and DK's will experience the same thing. When you change a skill where it doesn't allow a player to do what he could do the day before all you do is make people mad.

I have a suggestion for you in your balancing act:
1. Stop the nerfs! Just stop them, let the player base feel confident that they wont have to respec or reroll every patch. Stop the cycle of rage/quit/unsub
2. Fix the skill lines before you start adjusting them. Yes all of them.
3. Use buffing to adjust the classes instead of nerfing them. The VR content is pretty tough to solo and could withstand this with no problem.

I know this is a strange concept for developers but think of the difference it would make in our little community. I believe we would have a happier community of players and you might be able to stay P2P longer.

If you continue this path you will loose a lot more players.
My two cents.

You are a DK arent you ? Quit whining, you needed the fix.. if you say no, you are rly a egoistic player

Crimson Prophet

I still don't get why these topics keep coming up. So much whining. I got through most of my quests with very little bug issues, VR content isn't even that hard, the lag in PVP hasn't been much of an issue [sometimes, it has though, I will admit to that]. Are people just regurgitating the same complaints? Even after others have been fixed. I personally don't see these 'Thousands of issues'. I see some issues. None of which are game breaking. Every time I hear a Nightblade complaint, I chuckle. Evidently the Nightblade's aren't broken enough as I still get ganked by them.

So either I must suck as a DK, or the Nightblades having these horrible supposedly game breaking issues suck and haven't learned from the NBs who don't. And if I suck as a DK, I certainly am better then 90% of the complainers who seem to QQ over Veteran difficulty.

This weekend will have me creating a NB because they seem to be well on their way to being a dominant PVP class. If not already one. So my honest prediction is once they are 'fully' fixed, there will be topics proclaiming their OP abilities.

So glad people are leaving, thought all this crying would stop after the free month was up. Guess I was wrong. Least in game people stopped complaining as much. [Oh, and on my end, apart from a few guilds I left that went defunct. I find plenty of players]

On a side note, this topic wasn't as bad. I will give the OP credit. If he had complained about bots, I would have left this instantly. You can tell MMO noobs when there are people complaining about bots like they are something ESO-exclusive.

Goibot

Nickdorlandb16_ESO wrote: »

You are a DK arent you ? Quit whining, you needed the fix.. if you say no, you are rly a egoistic player

I normally don't feed trolls... but you make a lot of assumptions. I am not a DK, I do have one as a crafter but he is like lvl5. Egoistic? not by a long shot. Please go troll elsewhere.

tawok

Nerfing is part of the balancing process. Are you saying every class should've been boosted to DK/Sorc 1.0, instead of nerfing those classes to be on par with the others?

If anything, I'd like to see more nerfs. Make the game harder, focus on skill, blocking, dodging and interrupting. Less face roll, more Dark Souls.

AlexDougherty

tawok wrote: »

Nerfing is part of the balancing process. Are you saying every class should've been boosted to DK/Sorc 1.0, instead of nerfing those classes to be on par with the others?

Yes, boost Templar and Nightblade to DK levels, much better than nerfing.

ErykGrimm

tawok wrote: »

Nerfing is part of the balancing process. Are you saying every class should've been boosted to DK/Sorc 1.0, instead of nerfing those classes to be on par with the others?

If anything, I'd like to see more nerfs. Make the game harder, focus on skill, blocking, dodging and interrupting. Less face roll, more Dark Souls.

The problem is, no matter how many times you nerf a working class, its going to be better than a broken class. Without getting ALL the classes and skill lines at least working, there is no way to facilitate balance. It only wastes the devs time. As far as trivializing pve content, it is incredibly easy to tweak npcs. Just look at when they accidentally buffed VR mobs, they had a fix for it in less than 2 days. Nightblades have been broken since before last November.

Goibot

tawok wrote: »

Nerfing is part of the balancing process. Are you saying every class should've been boosted to DK/Sorc 1.0, instead of nerfing those classes to be on par with the others?

If anything, I'd like to see more nerfs. Make the game harder, focus on skill, blocking, dodging and interrupting. Less face roll, more Dark Souls.

Have you ever seen any MMO that doesn't split their balancing stats for pve and pvp (like ESO) achieve true balance in classes. The way this game is designed I don't think they will ever get a balanced game in both pve and pvp, not gonna happen. There will always be an op class in this game by the way it is designed.

There are fixes that are needed, like the fix to the vampire ultimate stacking (and I am a vamp). But when the killed it they should have fixed all the passives in the line too instead they nerfed the stages and mist speed and to this day the stages are still broke.

No with them applying nerfs the way they are doing now all they are doing is going to make people mad and loose a lot of our friends. Watch what happens to the sorcerers next. A better way to do it would be to buff and keep the players.

kirnmalidus

heitor wrote: »

Do you think what I real know?

It may be off topic, but let´s put all the things to the table.
Why classes in this game are so important? No offense, but it shouldn´t be that important IMO.

I´m forced to select one of the four classes at the begining of the game, ok, nothing agaisn´t that, but still I would prefer if it had at least a chance to select a freelancer class (Where I´m not stuck into the 3 specific class skill lines).
But when I think when the devs said in various interviews when the game was still in BETA, they said like "Play the way you want". I think that is not entirely true, because if I want to roll a melee weapon and skill lines of that weapon, more skills from Fighters/Undaunted guilds + armor skill lines + Alliance wars skill lines I will be at disavantage from the ones who roll skills/spells from Destro and Resto staffs and who just only roll the spells from Mages guild + Classes spells. Why I think that way?

I think about PvP, where I should use alot of the times CC Breakers, dodge rolls + Parrys/Blocks, sneaking, etc... All that consumes Stamina, it is very bad, because if I am a mage or a healer playstyle I can consume stamina all the way I want since I won´t need it to use my skills, while the ones who roll warrior, assassin playstyles are at big disavantage because if they use their skills from their physical weapons they will consume stamina, now think if I have stamina enough to use 6 special attacks, if I do a dodge roll for example, I just have stamina for more 3 special attacks at the begining of the combat. While if I am a mage, I still have 6 skills to use, even after a dodge roll, blocking, sprinting, sneaking, etc... because I don´t care about stamina, I just need magicka.

I dont know if you can understand me, my english isn´t great, but what I am trying to say is that I depend alot of the class to have a good performance in pve and pvp situations, because stamina can be waisted easily if I try to defend myself and that shouldn´t happen. The same way they removed the stamina costs from heavy attacks, they should remove it from dodge rolls and make the cc breaker consume "x" amount of stamina and magicka aswell, only in that way it would balance a little more the things. Because I shouldn´t be punished just because I decided to roll a certain playstyle, that isnt the way an ES game should be.

I love the game, but certain things isn´t very well thought in my opinion.

And btw, I just hope they fix the Nighblade class and buff up the templar class, while I am agaisn´t the class thing... Since it would be better giving us the conjuration staff skill lines and dagger skill line (dagger skill line is more heavy on stealth attacks) and remove that classes entirely.

Don't worry, we get you. And we agree. The way Stamina and Magicka work is currently broken. Here's my thoughts in another thread: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/comment/938090/#Comment_938090

anakaki

Despair9 wrote: »

I have to admit they really don't seem to have a clue what they're doing. Like seriously we have only 4 classes and they're unable to balance them, it's just not acceptable at all.

This has to be the biggest issue after the launch, with just 1 major update, they managed to do more harm than good. However I still think 99,9% of the playerbase hasn't even reached Craglorn and won't for quite some time (Probably never as they'll stop playing, besides this gaming generation is not used to grinding, and having to put effort in leveling. So the game has been doomed from the start, unless they make leveling faster).

What I don't understand is, why would someone support the idea not to nerf classes, there are things that just simply need to be done:

• Significantly Buff, improve, Templars and Nightblades.

• Slightly Nerf Dragon Knights and Sorcerers.
  
• Rework Vampire and mostly Werewolf skill line.

• DON'T put global cooldowns, if you have to put cooldowns, just do it on current skill to prevent spamming.

• I'd prefer if they just increased costs of magicka / stamina skills, to what they're doing now.

• We need more skills, push Thieves and Brotherhood Guild out as soon as possible.

• And the last thing, it's just an idea, but I would like to see a slightly increase to the spell bar, to about 7 + 1 ultimate.

You nailed it.

anakaki

AlexDougherty wrote: »

tawok wrote: »

Nerfing is part of the balancing process. Are you saying every class should've been boosted to DK/Sorc 1.0, instead of nerfing those classes to be on par with the others?

Yes, boost Templar and Nightblade to DK levels, much better than nerfing.

Temp/NB needs a revamp imo but to not nerf broken skills of dk/sorc isn't the way. Content should be hard. No faceroll for 2 classes or impossible for the others. Otherwise, where's the challenge?

Nickdorlandb16_ESO

Goibot wrote: »

Nickdorlandb16_ESO wrote: »

You are a DK arent you ? Quit whining, you needed the fix.. if you say no, you are rly a egoistic player

I normally don't feed trolls... but you make a lot of assumptions. I am not a DK, I do have one as a crafter but he is like lvl5. Egoistic? not by a long shot. Please go troll elsewhere.

I meant this, this was not a troll.. Just rly sick of the whining from DK's saying their class is perfectly balanced. Even my friends say its OP.. And they normally would defend their class to the bone..

Maverick827

Nickdorlandb16_ESO wrote: »

Goibot wrote: »

Nickdorlandb16_ESO wrote: »

You are a DK arent you ? Quit whining, you needed the fix.. if you say no, you are rly a egoistic player

I normally don't feed trolls... but you make a lot of assumptions. I am not a DK, I do have one as a crafter but he is like lvl5. Egoistic? not by a long shot. Please go troll elsewhere.

I meant this, this was not a troll.. Just rly sick of the whining from DK's saying their class is perfectly balanced. Even my friends say its OP.. And they normally would defend their class to the bone..

I'm really sick of the whining from non-DKs saying they are OP. Even my friends say they're balanced. And they normally wouldn't defend other classes.

Ragnar_Lodbrok

DKs were nerfed to uselessness over the last two patches all because pvpers in light using staffs. You know thats not the only way to play? But ZOS, and the forum idiots, think so apparently.

Gisgo

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

DKs were nerfed to uselessness over the last two patches all because pvpers in light using staffs.

LMAO

And the DEVs should listen to us players?

LMAO again

rawne1980b16_ESO

If they keep nerfing then everything will balance out.

Nothing will be any use.

It's a win win.

Nickdorlandb16_ESO

Goibot wrote: »

Nickdorlandb16_ESO wrote: »

You are a DK arent you ? Quit whining, you needed the fix.. if you say no, you are rly a egoistic player

I normally don't feed trolls... but you make a lot of assumptions. I am not a DK, I do have one as a crafter but he is like lvl5. Egoistic? not by a long shot. Please go troll elsewhere.

How original, but you are wrong and im right.. Why did they get fixes then ?

FunkyBudda

someuser wrote: »

@Gern_Verkheart I agree.

Why not BUFF the nightblades and templars to the level of DK and sorcs and than adjust the mob difficulty to make sure its not a complete faceroll???

Just from a marketing standpoint, why do you want to lose subs prematurely? As the OP said, who wants to log on to their toon only to be weaker than they were just the day before? Especially if your class is already behind the curve.

WHY add a GCD on bitting jabs??? I seriously don't care if they just put a timer on the move just to stop people from spamming it, but WHAT point does it serve to nerf a class just to address bots?? Not fair to the paying customer base.

/rant over

DK/Sorc/NB already have videos out there proven they can solo Craglorn content, so you want to bring templar up to that level, so all 4 classes can make a joke out of what supposedly is to be group and raid content?

ErykGrimm

FunkyBudda wrote: »

someuser wrote: »

@Gern_Verkheart I agree.

Why not BUFF the nightblades and templars to the level of DK and sorcs and than adjust the mob difficulty to make sure its not a complete faceroll???

Just from a marketing standpoint, why do you want to lose subs prematurely? As the OP said, who wants to log on to their toon only to be weaker than they were just the day before? Especially if your class is already behind the curve.

WHY add a GCD on bitting jabs??? I seriously don't care if they just put a timer on the move just to stop people from spamming it, but WHAT point does it serve to nerf a class just to address bots?? Not fair to the paying customer base.

/rant over

DK/Sorc/NB already have videos out there proven they can solo Craglorn content, so you want to bring templar up to that level, so all 4 classes can make a joke out of what supposedly is to be group and raid content?

I have not seen a video of anyone soloing trials on this patch. Your point is irrelevant. Adjusting the difficulty of pve content is very simple and should be expected to occur after all the classes are working as intended. The game had to be balanced with broken classes in mind. Once they arent broken anymore it is only natural to expect a buff to trials, dungeons, etc.

KaedianEQ

Gern_Verkheart wrote: »

I couldn't agree more. I don't know why devs in every MMO seem to be obsessed with nerfing, as opposed to buffing the classes that are lagging behind.

Because then the existing content simply gets shredded and then the playerbase has even more people sitting at max level complaining about "nothing to do" "game is too easy" "where's the challenge"

ErykGrimm

KaedianEQ wrote: »

Gern_Verkheart wrote: »

I couldn't agree more. I don't know why devs in every MMO seem to be obsessed with nerfing, as opposed to buffing the classes that are lagging behind.

Because then the existing content simply gets shredded and then the playerbase has even more people sitting at max level complaining about "nothing to do" "game is too easy" "where's the challenge"

Because it is impossible to change the stat values for npcs right? Zenimax has fiddled with content already. It takes less than 6 hours for all of the VR content to be tweaked. Look at patch 1.1.2 for example. Edit: corrected auto correct.

NerfEverything

I quit because of the biting jabs nerf. I am VR12 templar. I knew my class was underpowered from the beginning. Templars took some huge nerfs in beta. I stuck with it because eventually Zen will get the classes balanced out. All my struggling will eventually pay off in the end, right?

NOPE. First balance patch is a crippling stealth nerf to the weakest class. I can understand sometimes mistakes are made, bugs are introduced. This was neither. It was 100% intentional and defied all logic.

I have no faith in Zen to ever get this game up to the most basic MMORPG standards. They are not capable of it.

If they get rid of the current game director Matt Firor, and bring on someone who knows what they are doing, I will probably resub. Until then, I'll just sit back and watch one bad decision after another until the game is dead.

Morbus2

iuki wrote: »

So nerf the crap out of sorcs b/c Templars need a buff...got it.

That seems to be the general consensus of whiners these days. Templars need a buff, nope nerf sorcs, NB need a buff, nope how about we nerf sorcs instead. There answer to every problem in the game is, guess what? Nerf sorcs!

Nox_Aeterna

ErykGrimm wrote: »

KaedianEQ wrote: »

Gern_Verkheart wrote: »

I couldn't agree more. I don't know why devs in every MMO seem to be obsessed with nerfing, as opposed to buffing the classes that are lagging behind.

Because then the existing content simply gets shredded and then the playerbase has even more people sitting at max level complaining about "nothing to do" "game is too easy" "where's the challenge"

Because it is impossible to change the stat values for npcs right? Zenimax has fiddled with content already. It takes less than 6 hours for all of the VR content to be tweaked. Look at patch 1.1.2 for example. Edit: corrected auto correct.

Uhh , what is the point of that exactly?

They could nerf DKs/sorcs , buff the templars and fix the NB , once all classes are at a fair medium , the game is good to go.

They could keep the DK/sorcs , buff the templars and fix/buff the NBs , then they would raise the content level so that the game become harder and it reach the same spot we got on the first example , but with higher numbers since they did not nerf.

What is the difference? None.

Players will complain they cant do the exact same things they could the day before , because you technically did "nerf" them by raising the game itself up to par.

People need to accept the fact DK were/are too strong to the bar zen wants the classes to be on. If a class can solo a closed group dungeon something is wrong , and that does not only goes to the DKs.

stevenpotter321b14_ESO

NerfEverything wrote: »

I quit because of the biting jabs nerf. I am VR12 templar. I knew my class was underpowered from the beginning. Templars took some huge nerfs in beta. I stuck with it because eventually Zen will get the classes balanced out. All my struggling will eventually pay off in the end, right?

NOPE. First balance patch is a crippling stealth nerf to the weakest class. I can understand sometimes mistakes are made, bugs are introduced. This was neither. It was 100% intentional and defied all logic.

I have no faith in Zen to ever get this game up to the most basic MMORPG standards. They are not capable of it.

If they get rid of the current game director Matt Firor, and bring on someone who knows what they are doing, I will probably resub. Until then, I'll just sit back and watch one bad decision after another until the game is dead.

Hope you aren't holding your breath while waiting. I imagine some are hoping you do.

ErykGrimm

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

ErykGrimm wrote: »

KaedianEQ wrote: »

Gern_Verkheart wrote: »

I couldn't agree more. I don't know why devs in every MMO seem to be obsessed with nerfing, as opposed to buffing the classes that are lagging behind.

Because then the existing content simply gets shredded and then the playerbase has even more people sitting at max level complaining about "nothing to do" "game is too easy" "where's the challenge"

Because it is impossible to change the stat values for npcs right? Zenimax has fiddled with content already. It takes less than 6 hours for all of the VR content to be tweaked. Look at patch 1.1.2 for example. Edit: corrected auto correct.

Uhh , what is the point of that exactly?

They could nerf DKs/sorcs , buff the templars and fix the NB , once all classes are at a fair medium , the game is good to go.

They could keep the DK/sorcs , buff the templars and fix/buff the NBs , then they would raise the content level so that the game become harder and it reach the same spot we got on the first example , but with higher numbers since they did not nerf.

What is the difference? None.

Players will complain they cant do the exact same things they could the day before , because you technically did "nerf" them by raising the game itself up to par.

People need to accept the fact DK were/are too strong to the bar zen wants the classes to be on. If a class can solo a closed group dungeon something is wrong , and that does not only goes to the DKs.

The difference is that ZOS could get classes that are broken fixed before the playerbase bleeds out. By getting classes/skills fixed before beginning the cycle of nerfs and balancing it stops all those night blades and Templars that are fed up with playing a broken class from finding a different game. There are still too many bugged out passives, broken skills and disparities between armor and weapon lines for any meaningful balance attempts to be made. I agree that dragon knights are stronger than other classes right now, but I do not agree with trying to polish and balance before a baseline can be established on how classes and builds will synergyze. It is quite obvious light armor staff wielding dks are uber. But the problem could very well lie in the fact that all classes built like that are stronger than their alternative.

Natjur

The game is almost in month 3.
There are still many bugs that were broken in beta still in the game.
I just don't believe the developers can 'pull it off anymore' and since there is nothing I can do, I will just speak with my wallet and move on.
Its been fun for two month but its too broken post V10 for Templar's

There is no other game out there that 'interests' me but I will go try out Wildstar for a month as its something to do.
"So long and thanks for all the fish"

Adramelach

I dunno, I can get equal dps out of a temp as a sorc, and for both, can get through all the content I've seen so far. Plus, the combos I put together with bow and destro, draining both stamina and magicka in a balanced and fast way, out-dps anything I can do on magicka alone, on either class.

I'm not really seeing the issue on templar, or on stamina weapons yet... Haven't had much trouble using any of that.