Class Balancing - Please stop the nerfs

Shaun98ca2

Deinokb16_ESO wrote: »

Even they said it would be xxx.xxx.xxx ways to build your character, when you add content like the trials, all that X builds come to 1 or 2 viable per class, it's in that moment when you see the weaknesses and the opnesses of classes. From my point of view, Templars have been relegated to their heal branch and I think they will remain like that during the whole game.

When somebody says viable......the min/maxers are only thinking OPTIMAL. Meaning the best of the best of the best. They don't want viable only OPTIMAL. That's what your currently seeing with Trials and other content.

Deinokb16_ESO

Yes, my bad I should say Optimal, I'm farming alchemy plants atm, so every build I use to farm them is viable.

captain_awesome

We need buffs/fixes to NB and Templar.
We also unfortunately need Nerfs to Sorc and DK to bring the classes together in capability.

No one class should be able to solo 12 man content. If they can then that class has too many force multipliers at its disposal. Its undeniably OP and needs a nerf.

someuser

anakaki wrote: »

There are so many other issues with templar. I can't believe all the rage as if this would sort out anything.

@anakakiI have heard there are other issues with the Templar class. I'm a super casual player who really could care less about "ranked" anything, or if people want to be snobby with me because we clear the dungeon in 13 mins instead of 11...

Now, I do agree that the class should be fairly balanced so I'm on your team... more needs to be done besides just the Puncturing Strikes GCD...

But to explain why I believe there is such an uproar, Puncturing Strikes is a favorite skill that a lot of Templars have and like to use. Want to stop people/bots from spamming... fine, add the CD, keep it at 1.2 secs, no prob. But to basically add that GCD means I don't like using the move at all.

Thankfully, I'm a big boy and I'm not rage quitting or demanding Zenimax fix it ASAP or <insert insignificant and irrelevant threat>. Just saying it sucks and it would be super awesome if they changed it from a GCD to a CD

Ragekniv

Adding a GCD to biting jabs is outrageous. In addition, they increased the cost of the skill. How does this make whole again the Templar class which was already the worst DPS class.

Templars also are the only class to have their resource mechanic obliterated out of Beta.

Sorcs and DKs are insanely OP and Templars and NBs are woefully under powered.

Beta and three months legitimate player base subscription revenue merit evidence of balance of all classes.

How much before attrition of player base becomes evident. Sadly it already is occurring.

Look at your friends list and guilds and consider how active they are anymore.

I hope Zenimax balances all classes soon but sadly I don't see it happening before attrition of ESO player base passes the event horizon of ESO's relevance.

Ragekniv

It's late here on the West coast, sorry for the redundant post but the sentiments remain relevant and heart felt.

WilliamTee

Sorry, but sometimes nerfs are necessary.

Better 4 balanced classes that find VR content a challenge, than 4 OP classes that make all content trivial.

JLB

The problem here is not nerfs. The problem is that ununderstandable nerf went to the wrong class, which was in need of a big boost, not any kind of nerf.

And for all who put their money/hopes into Templars or NBs, I'm sure they'll all agree it's better 4 OP classes than 2 OP and 2 "balanced".

Even though I love Templars, I've been swearing the day I decided to keep leveling a Templar and not a DK, in hopes by the time I reached v12 the obvious gap between the classes would have been fixed. Sorry, I didn't leveled a Templar to be a healer. Yes I could heal ok - and so do the rest of the classes as good as Templars. The difference is they can be top of the tops in other areas like survival and dpsing, while I can't.

And no, there's no way I'm going through all that exhausting leveling again just because the fix is not coming. I refuse to think the current state is "right" to the eyes of devs. I mean, you have to be blind not to see it. But, I just don't understand why is it taking so long.

Nox_Aeterna

JLB wrote: »

The problem here is not nerfs. The problem is that ununderstandable nerf went to the wrong class, which was in need of a big boost, not any kind of nerf.

And for all who put their money/hopes into Templars or NBs, I'm sure they'll all agree it's better 4 OP classes than 2 OP and 2 "balanced".

Even though I love Templars, I've been swearing the day I decided to keep leveling a Templar and not a DK, in hopes by the time I reached v12 the obvious gap between the classes would have been fixed. Sorry, I didn't leveled a Templar to be a healer. Yes I could heal ok - and so do the rest of the classes as good as Templars. The difference is they can be top of the tops in other areas like survival and dpsing, while I can't.

And no, there's no way I'm going through all that exhausting leveling again just because the fix is not coming. I refuse to think the current state is "right" to the eyes of devs. I mean, you have to be blind not to see it. But, I just don't understand why is it taking so long.

Hehehe exactly how i feel about this game right now , even how i regret not going DK , well even sorc would also be neat.

I made all classes and went with the templar for the spear tree , i have no intetion of playing a healer lols , now i see that was a huge mistake :P.

It really fools players how the game change once you get to vet. You can see tons of low lvl templars who think the class is on par even now hehe (which im also to blame for , i only noticed this on vet myself ).

anakaki

It's very disturbing that there isn't even a sticky for templars regarding our fixes. They actually think this game will be around in 6 months with only maintenance patches coming out? And no I don't count buglorn.

crislevin

iuki wrote: »

Hum, far as I can tell 99.99% of complaints about sorcs is bolt escape.

I guess they will nerf that into the ground so it's useless and then we can all just play DKs instead since they are a better 'sorc' than a real one. Bolt escape is the sorc's class defining skill so once it's gutted there will be not much left. GG.

Misery loves company and QQ rules balancing after all!

And that 99 percentage of complaints are from 99 percent of dk who want to sit on the king seat alone.

All Zos need to look at, is how many active player playing which class, and go from there. Leader board is a good place to look too, and most top 10 are dks, sorcs are far behind, temp and NB are even further behind.

I completely agree with op that buff of NB and temp are needed.

Nerf of biting jabs was ridiculous, shows truly that developers don't know what they are doing. I understand you don't want one big win button, but you can not simply add an absurdly long global cool down.

You need to look at the class as a whole, if biting jabs needs nerf, they can do that, but ONLY after they buff other skills for temp so they don't weaken an already weak class.

And for all the nerf of weaker classes, what did they do for dk? A merely 2 reduction in talons radius? Are you serious? Why not a 1 second global cool down there?

anakaki

In the words of Jeremy Shanes review:

Every player with a basic amount of experience in ESO knows the class power heriarcy is Dragonknight, Sorcerer, Templar, Nightblade. In almost every leaderboard in PvP the top ranks consist of Dragonknights and Sorcerers. In the newly released Trials (timed dungeon events with leaderboards) the top teams are made up of mostly... you guessed it: Dragonknights and Sorcerers. That is the real problem with how long it has taken to address the imbalance: leaderboards. The top times are done. Even if they get balance right and bring the power level down a bit for these classes, that statistic stands. In PvP campaigns that last three months, we are nearly 2/3s complete and there is no way to catch top players even if changes are made at this point, which they won't be because the next large patch for class changes isn't due out for another 4-6 weeks. But, playing through the questlines with each character type will really give you a sense of how imbalanced they are. Content that seemed impossible with one class was a cake-walk with others. It was really eye-opening in a completely different way than just running into a tough player in PvP or seeing some stats on leaderboards.

Aaklor

Goibot wrote: »

pknecron wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Hehe , well i still got 8 days left :P.

Zen clearly got nearly no idea what the hell is going on in their game , reason they went after bitting jabs on templars , while DKs and Sorcs keep their place at the top.

If you read the latest patch notes for the next patch you would see they are fixing the lag issue with biting jabs because it was a bug and not intentional.

I'm sorry, but I do disagree with you. They did the nerf intentionally. They said the mistake that they made was doing it by stealth and not putting it in the patch notes, That was not intended. Also the new cost in manna is going to be an intentional nerf as well. It really defies logic, doesn't it.

I believe this is why they ninja "fix" stuff and don't add it to the patch notes. The vet mob snafu with craglorn update, I believe that wasn't intentional, shutting down NA server instead of EU for patch, unintentional.

It's like they think we're mentally challenged and won't notice their ninja fix. When we do and raise hell on the forums about it....."oh, it wasn't intentional, sorry."

Goibot

WilliamTee wrote: »

Sorry, but sometimes nerfs are necessary.

Better 4 balanced classes that find VR content a challenge, than 4 OP classes that make all content trivial.

I'm sorry, but with the state of the game now, I have to disagree. I do not think using the buffing method would make the vet levels trivial. Might make them more playable, but not trivial. It would also save quite a few subs.

irishdexy

Well Buffing our Characters (NB and Templars) so we could do more of VR Content would be better since Sorcs and DKs can roflstomp VR stuff with impunity it seems.

My NB has a dream that one day his traditional Stamina build for Bow and Dual Wield will be come a viable option for anything. Its like any time I want to do a mission I have to beg someone to join me. On my new sorc (yes I bowed to peer pressure) I can just impulse things to death its rather terrifying sometimes.

Jeremy

Goibot wrote: »

Our little community is hurting, quite a few people have already left and a lot of others are just riding out their current sub. The reasons are too numerous to list and range from bad customer service to lag in Cyodil and the VR content being very powerful with thousands of problems in between. I want ESO to grow a happy player base where people work together to get things done but that is not what ESO is promoting.

We are now getting to the point where the developers are trying to balance the classes. I think we can all see what two classes are strong and what two are on the short end of the dps list. Every leaderboard and list states it clearly.

The dev's have so far tried to do a balancing act (and very badly) by nerfing whatever they thought was too powerful. First before anything in a skill line is nerfed the line itself should be fixed. The Vamp line for example, it has had a pretty serious nerf to its stages and mist form but the line itself is still broken (just one example).

Next when they slammed the hammer down, they hit one of the weakest skill lines out there. Melee Templars comes to mind with biting jabs. Yes they are going to revert the global cool down back to where it was but they are still going to nerf the cost of it. Why? It defies all logic. I ask again why nerf one of the weakest classes at all?

Now when they get around to nerfing the strongest two classes what is going to happen? I can tell you what happened with the Templar nerf, there was a lot of rage quit and unsub. That nerf still defies all logic. I suspect Sorc and DK's will experience the same thing. When you change a skill where it doesn't allow a player to do what he could do the day before all you do is make people mad.

I have a suggestion for you in your balancing act:
1. Stop the nerfs! Just stop them, let the player base feel confident that they wont have to respec or reroll every patch. Stop the cycle of rage/quit/unsub
2. Fix the skill lines before you start adjusting them. Yes all of them.
3. Use buffing to adjust the classes instead of nerfing them. The VR content is pretty tough to solo and could withstand this with no problem.

I know this is a strange concept for developers but think of the difference it would make in our little community. I believe we would have a happier community of players and you might be able to stay P2P longer.

If you continue this path you will loose a lot more players.
My two cents.

I agree with you that nerfing is a terrible way to handle this problem. If there is a certain class that is struggling, they should focus on making that class better. Not screwing over others.

As far as balance between classes: that's a pipe dream and is never going to happen. Nor should it really.

The whole point of different classes is to create imbalances between players.

terence.caroneb17_ESO

Totally agree, buff the weak classes, fix all the skills (active and passive) not working, and THEN you do adjustments.
Right now, patches are a mix between long awaited fix (few I must say), a tiny bit of good nerfs (bash, vampire ultimate, dark talons though I think this one isnt workin well), not asked for or fully unjustifiable nerfs (biting jabs, vampire stages nerf, healing skilline passives of templars for fast rez), and just quest/worldboss fixes.

All in all, it seems Zenimax Online's people are going in different directions, not knowing where their priorities lie. Thing is, players (and not only the ones on the official forums, don't get confused by the theory "It's only the haters who come write about bugs/things not working, and all the other people are having a perfect time") are for a big part getting tired of waiting and seeing the game being less and less fair when it comes to VR content and PvP. Exploits are not fixed until one or two weeks (ruining PvP mainly), there's no sign of class balance changes coming up, the 2 weakest classes have to wait weeks or even months to get back their functionning skills (I'm not even talking about buffs that they need, just that my templar can't play melee anymore without being a punching ball).

Priorities is the key word there. If ZoS don't show a new strategy in the next "the road ahead" post, explaining why they need so much time to fix urgent, hugely urgent problems (those making the game unplayable, whether it's from not being able to log in, having exploits ruining challenge in PvP, technical issues ...).
For now, nothing is explained, every patch notes post is ridiculously small, and we find that they can keep changes hidden, like they did with biting jabs. So, again, be sincere with your fanbase, explain why it takes so much time, don't forget any change/nerf/fix in your patch notes, and we can then forgive the Craglorn patch, which has probably already cost you a good number of subs.

AlexDougherty

I agree with the OP, and most of the posters here. Just stop the nerfing and boost the other three classes until they match the DK, which is the only class that feels right to me.

heitor

Do you think what I real know?

It may be off topic, but let´s put all the things to the table.
Why classes in this game are so important? No offense, but it shouldn´t be that important IMO.

I´m forced to select one of the four classes at the begining of the game, ok, nothing agaisn´t that, but still I would prefer if it had at least a chance to select a freelancer class (Where I´m not stuck into the 3 specific class skill lines).
But when I think when the devs said in various interviews when the game was still in BETA, they said like "Play the way you want". I think that is not entirely true, because if I want to roll a melee weapon and skill lines of that weapon, more skills from Fighters/Undaunted guilds + armor skill lines + Alliance wars skill lines I will be at disavantage from the ones who roll skills/spells from Destro and Resto staffs and who just only roll the spells from Mages guild + Classes spells. Why I think that way?

I think about PvP, where I should use alot of the times CC Breakers, dodge rolls + Parrys/Blocks, sneaking, etc... All that consumes Stamina, it is very bad, because if I am a mage or a healer playstyle I can consume stamina all the way I want since I won´t need it to use my skills, while the ones who roll warrior, assassin playstyles are at big disavantage because if they use their skills from their physical weapons they will consume stamina, now think if I have stamina enough to use 6 special attacks, if I do a dodge roll for example, I just have stamina for more 3 special attacks at the begining of the combat. While if I am a mage, I still have 6 skills to use, even after a dodge roll, blocking, sprinting, sneaking, etc... because I don´t care about stamina, I just need magicka.

I dont know if you can understand me, my english isn´t great, but what I am trying to say is that I depend alot of the class to have a good performance in pve and pvp situations, because stamina can be waisted easily if I try to defend myself and that shouldn´t happen. The same way they removed the stamina costs from heavy attacks, they should remove it from dodge rolls and make the cc breaker consume "x" amount of stamina and magicka aswell, only in that way it would balance a little more the things. Because I shouldn´t be punished just because I decided to roll a certain playstyle, that isnt the way an ES game should be.

I love the game, but certain things isn´t very well thought in my opinion.

And btw, I just hope they fix the Nighblade class and buff up the templar class, while I am agaisn´t the class thing... Since it would be better giving us the conjuration staff skill lines and dagger skill line (dagger skill line is more heavy on stealth attacks) and remove that classes entirely.

AlexDougherty

@Heitor The reason for having the classes is simple, if all the skill lines were available to everyone, then there would only be on or two builds that wouldn't get you killed in seconds.

Because every other build would sacrifice something stronger for something weaker, and the game would reflect that.

So by restricting class skills to one class they actually increase the potential builds available to us. Counter-intuitive though it is.

PS your english is fine.

heitor

@AlexDougherty Thanks, but the way it is right now is the same way you described it, just roll a DK or a Sorcerer and you are very effective, while the ones who rolled NB had just bad luck, because their class is/was broken because the last major update bugged alot of stealth skills. To just have 2/4 "playable" class or to have just have 2 builds stronger than the others it is the same thing. While I don´t agree that only one or two builds would be very OP, because like I said, if they implemented for example daggers skill line (stealth based skill line + damage bonus with daggers while in sneaking) you couldn´t be a mage using skills that would make you a master of stealth at the same time for example. Because if you were carrying a staff you couldn´t use the daggers skills, you couldn´t be like a nightblade is right now for example. For that you would need to use daggers to be a master in stealth. But that is jut my opinion.

I just hope that Zenimax do a revision at stamina costs in dodge rolls, blocks, etc... because who play more based on stamina is suffering because of that, because who play with magicka based have more advantage than the ones who play with stamina. So I can´t create my warrior, I´m forced to use fancy magic and that is bad IMO, because I would love to play a true warrior, but that is impossible because I won´t be effective enough to kill ppl who play as mage for example in cyrodiil.

AlexDougherty

heitor wrote: »

@AlexDougherty Thanks, but the way it is right now is the same way you described it, just roll a DK or a Sorcerer and you are very effective, while the ones who rolled NB had just bad luck, because their class is/was broken because the last major update bugged alot of stealth skills.

I understand what you mean, but I have to point out that within those two classes there are several viable builds. Doubling or tripling the number of viable builds available.

I do agree that the classes are unbalanced, especially as I play all four. I've had to give up on my nightblade for the minute, and my Templar just got stomped my some NPC healers. But I live in hope the classes will get balanced, hopefully without any more nerfs.

I can't disagree completely about the abandoning of the class structure, but likewise I can't agree completely either.

I just hope that Zenimax do a revision at stamina costs in dodge rolls, blocks, etc... because who play more based on stamina is suffering because of that, because who play with magicka based have more advantage than the ones who play with stamina.

Here I can agree with you completely, the attributes and the associated costs have been badly implemented.

Wintersage

AlexDougherty wrote: »

@Heitor The reason for having the classes is simple, if all the skill lines were available to everyone, then there would only be on or two builds that wouldn't get you killed in seconds.

Ah. We seem to find ourselves here again. I don't really want to derail this thread, nor do I particularly want to argue with someone with a Wizard's Rule in their sig...but.

The simple fact of the matter is, there will always be fotm builds. No matter what systems are in place, no matter what game mechanics you use, there will you find fotm builds. Always.

And, if that's the case, why punish us? Why not allow us the freedom to truly play as we want, with what class skill-lines we desire?

Because every other build would sacrifice something stronger for something weaker, and the game would reflect that.

I must not be understanding you, because that seems to me the way it should be. Builds shouldn't all be good at everything. There should be some situations you just aren't all that great at, and might need to call in some help. (You know, assuming you could call in help. But that's a different debate right there.)

So by restricting class skills to one class they actually increase the potential builds available to us. Counter-intuitive though it is.

Um, simple math doesn't back this up. If you have 12 potential skill lines to draw from, that's more than 3. Even if it's a system where you pick 3, and are forced to stick with them, that's still 3 out of 12. Your 3.

What's more, how many of us really care about possible potential builds? We want to play ourbuild. Each of us. And that's all about allowing individual choice.

Goibot

Well the patch notes are in, and they are full of nerf's. This is a bad road you are traveling and I'm afraid this will cause quite a few players to leave. Please close this thread as it will just contribute to the general negativity you are causing.

Inco

Yes.. while I agree some NERFS are needed for DK's... I also agree with Goibot some buff's first might have been a better approach.

Xsorus

people need to quit saying NB's are underpowered

They're not...They're incredibly powerful

What sucks is, like all classes..Stamina Builds..

you throw Light Armor and Destro/Restro on a NB, and its incredibly oped just like the other classes running that setup.

Bloodfang

I have to admit they really don't seem to have a clue what they're doing. Like seriously we have only 4 classes and they're unable to balance them, it's just not acceptable at all.

This has to be the biggest issue after the launch, with just 1 major update, they managed to do more harm than good. However I still think 99,9% of the playerbase hasn't even reached Craglorn and won't for quite some time (Probably never as they'll stop playing, besides this gaming generation is not used to grinding, and having to put effort in leveling. So the game has been doomed from the start, unless they make leveling faster).

What I don't understand is, why would someone support the idea not to nerf classes, there are things that just simply need to be done:

• Significantly Buff, improve, Templars and Nightblades.

• Slightly Nerf Dragon Knights and Sorcerers.
  
• Rework Vampire and mostly Werewolf skill line.

• DON'T put global cooldowns, if you have to put cooldowns, just do it on current skill to prevent spamming.

• I'd prefer if they just increased costs of magicka / stamina skills, to what they're doing now.

• We need more skills, push Thieves and Brotherhood Guild out as soon as possible.

• And the last thing, it's just an idea, but I would like to see a slightly increase to the spell bar, to about 7 + 1 ultimate.

iuki

What's cheaper in the long run from a developer stand point....

Going into a 'note pad' and nerfing some numbers...

or

Buffing other abilities/classes and re-adjusting mobs/game world/etc?

I think we all know the answer to that one judging by Zeni's track record so far.

If there is problem, nerf it quickly with the least amount of thought/effort and move on. Meh.

Goibot

Despair9 wrote: »

What I don't understand is, why would someone support the idea not to nerf classes, there are things that just simply need to be done:

[*] Slightly Nerf Dragon Knights and Sorcerers.

The reason is very simple, I want to play this game for a long time or at least as long as it stays P2P. But I can't and don't want to play it alone.

I started this thread because of their attitude to fix problems that they perceive was to just nerf it to oblivion. The Templar stealth nerf was a good example of showing what happens. A lot of Templars no longer play. Now they have run a pretty good nerf on the DK's. How many of our fellow DK players will quit because of it? What will happen next when the Sorcerers feel the wrath of the nerf hammer?

When a players character gets nerfed to the point where they can't do or go where they did the day before they get mad and a lot will quit. They could accomplish the same thing through buffing the weaker classes. Especially with how hard the VR zones are now.

By the way, I love your list! I do think they need to rework the stamina/melee lines too though.

Singular

So...where does all this data come from that demonstrates people are leaving the game because of nerfs?

I'm honestly interested.