What killed PvP?

Izatar

Dealdrick wrote: »

What ever man, enjoy the view from under that rock.

Well, here is my math. My research shows that this game has sales of between 1 and 2 million. Competative pvp guilds are typically below 100, only a few have a thousand. 100 pvp guilds of 100 players would only make 1% of the player base of 1 million.

Give or take, it could be less or more than 1%, but certainly not 5%.

Dealdrick

All of the above

Izatar wrote: »

Dealdrick wrote: »

What ever man, enjoy the view from under that rock.

Well, here is my math. My research shows that this game has sales of between 1 and 2 million. Competative pvp guilds are typically below 100, only a few have a thousand. 100 pvp guilds of 100 players would only make 1% of the player base of 1 million.

Give or take, it could be less or more than 1%, but certainly not 5%.

Math based on conjecture, that's worth about $0.02 more than male bovine *** matter.

Gisgo

Lag

Too much lag too many campaigns.

Wolfahm

Lag

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/105348/patch-v-1-1-3-preview

---

Patch v.1.1.3 Preview
ZOS_JessicaFolsomZOS_JessicaFolsom admin
6:01PM edited 6:01PM in General Discussion - English Staff Post
On Monday (6/2) during the regular maintenance period, we’ll be pushing an incremental patch to the live megaservers. The patch includes a handful of important fixes and improvements. We’re still working on finalizing the complete patch notes, but we wanted to share some of the highlights with you now:

We do have more skill line fixes and improvements on the way, and are looking at which ones we can get out next week. We’ll keep you updated.

Alliance War

Implemented some memory fixes which will improve performance (decrease latency) in Cyrodiil.
Caltrops: Fixed an issue with Caltrops – you will no longer be immune to siege damage.
Fixed an issue where some container rewards received through mail by non-veteran rank player characters contained items with no level or icon.


Nightblade

Catalyst: This passive ability’s bonus has been increased to 15% for Rank I and 30% for Rank II.
Path of Darkness: This ability’s damage has been slightly increased.
Veil of Blades: This ability is now capable of critical strikes.


Templar

Puncturing Strikes: Reduced the global cooldown triggered after this ability is used, and slightly increased the ability resource cost. This change impacts Puncturing Strikes and all its morphs.


Trials

Fixed an issue with treasure chests so more than one group member can now loot the chest before it disappears.


Miscellaneous

Fixed an issue that was causing some people to get stuck at the login screen or character select screen for a long period of time after experiencing a crash.
Graphics: We have implemented a fix for those who could not see ghosts when using DX9 after patch 1.1.2. However, we encourage you to use DX11 unless playing on Windows XP.
Fixed an issue that was causing some collected books to disappear or get replaced when you used a Wayshrine or reloaded the game.

Gisgo

Lag

Good but no mention of merges. They are pretending all campaigns are populated.

Dealdrick

All of the above

Wolfahm wrote: »

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/105348/patch-v-1-1-3-preview

---

Patch v.1.1.3 Preview
ZOS_JessicaFolsomZOS_JessicaFolsom admin
6:01PM edited 6:01PM in General Discussion - English Staff Post
On Monday (6/2) during the regular maintenance period, we’ll be pushing an incremental patch to the live megaservers. The patch includes a handful of important fixes and improvements. We’re still working on finalizing the complete patch notes, but we wanted to share some of the highlights with you now:

We do have more skill line fixes and improvements on the way, and are looking at which ones we can get out next week. We’ll keep you updated.

Alliance War

Implemented some memory fixes which will improve performance (decrease latency) in Cyrodiil.
Caltrops: Fixed an issue with Caltrops – you will no longer be immune to siege damage.
Fixed an issue where some container rewards received through mail by non-veteran rank player characters contained items with no level or icon.


Nightblade

Catalyst: This passive ability’s bonus has been increased to 15% for Rank I and 30% for Rank II.
Path of Darkness: This ability’s damage has been slightly increased.
Veil of Blades: This ability is now capable of critical strikes.


Templar

Puncturing Strikes: Reduced the global cooldown triggered after this ability is used, and slightly increased the ability resource cost. This change impacts Puncturing Strikes and all its morphs.


Trials

Fixed an issue with treasure chests so more than one group member can now loot the chest before it disappears.


Miscellaneous

Fixed an issue that was causing some people to get stuck at the login screen or character select screen for a long period of time after experiencing a crash.
Graphics: We have implemented a fix for those who could not see ghosts when using DX9 after patch 1.1.2. However, we encourage you to use DX11 unless playing on Windows XP.
Fixed an issue that was causing some collected books to disappear or get replaced when you used a Wayshrine or reloaded the game.

If this actually happens the way it is intended, then great. At this point, I'll believe when I see it. I have not been impressed at all with Zeni's ability to patch this game without significant consequences. I have almost no faith left in this dev team

AryaWythers

Sorry I think the fact that it's a PvE based MMO is what killed PvP.

Dealdrick

All of the above

AryaWythers wrote: »

Sorry I think the fact that it's a PvE based MMO is what killed PvP.

1- It is currently not a good PvE game with the broken classes, bugs and negative view of VR content

2- If you don't offer any legit reason or explanation for a claim like this no one will care what that claim is.

AryaWythers

Dealdrick wrote: »

AryaWythers wrote: »

Sorry I think the fact that it's a PvE based MMO is what killed PvP.

1- It is currently not a good PvE game with the broken classes, bugs and negative view of VR content

2- If you don't offer any legit reason or explanation for a claim like this no one will care what that claim is.

Did you forget why you are voting on this post...doesn't matter how I feel PvP is still DEAD

I have been fighting for PvP for weeks now and made tons of posts and threads long before now....they were ignored and closed. But look at the population on servers right now!

Nivzruo_ESO

Another option: Lack of small scale pvp like Arena/WZ.. I have no interest in aoe zerg spam.

Dealdrick

All of the above

AryaWythers wrote: »

Dealdrick wrote: »

AryaWythers wrote: »

Sorry I think the fact that it's a PvE based MMO is what killed PvP.

1- It is currently not a good PvE game with the broken classes, bugs and negative view of VR content

2- If you don't offer any legit reason or explanation for a claim like this no one will care what that claim is.

Did you forget why you are voting on this post...doesn't matter how I feel PvP is still DEAD

Yes, PvP is in a terrible state, as is the game as a whole, but that doesn't mean that making wild claims with nothing to support those claims will somehow breath life back into Cyrodill.

Glurin

IMO, what kills PvP more than anything is people switching sides or just leaving altogether when they start losing. This creates one side that has an overwhelming numbers advantage over the others, which leads to more people leaving the low population factions and so on. Then people complain because there is no one left to fight, so there is no more PvP.

It's a problem of people only wanting to dominate, but not be dominant. They're not really looking for PvP so much as they are looking to show off their e-peen.

TheBucket

None of the above option?

Never mind.. just realized the poll is biased BS. Like most of the threads getting posted by the current MMO genre

AryaWythers

Dealdrick wrote: »

AryaWythers wrote: »

Dealdrick wrote: »

AryaWythers wrote: »

Sorry I think the fact that it's a PvE based MMO is what killed PvP.

1- It is currently not a good PvE game with the broken classes, bugs and negative view of VR content

2- If you don't offer any legit reason or explanation for a claim like this no one will care what that claim is.

Did you forget why you are voting on this post...doesn't matter how I feel PvP is still DEAD

Yes, PvP is in a terrible state, as is the game as a whole, but that doesn't mean that making wild claims with nothing to support those claims will somehow breath life back into Cyrodill.

You can look up my posts instead of sitting here playing games and trying to bait me into some sort of argument...go Play the game and leave people alone, why you obsessed with my single post here? And elsewhere?

I paid plenty for the game can I not post in the forums Mr Stalin?

Dealdrick

All of the above

Glurin wrote: »

IMO, what kills PvP more than anything is people switching sides or just leaving altogether when they start losing. This creates one side that has an overwhelming numbers advantage over the others, which leads to more people leaving the low population factions and so on. Then people complain because there is no one left to fight, so there is no more PvP.

It's a problem of people only wanting to dominate, but not be dominant. They're not really looking for PvP so much as they are looking to show off their e-peen.

How does this supposition have anything to do with the current state of PvP in ESO? Have you been actively PvPing this game? Have you heard from others that this is the reason they are no longer playing? Because it sounds like you are just rambling without any specific knowledge of the situation.

AryaWythers

Dealdrick wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

IMO, what kills PvP more than anything is people switching sides or just leaving altogether when they start losing. This creates one side that has an overwhelming numbers advantage over the others, which leads to more people leaving the low population factions and so on. Then people complain because there is no one left to fight, so there is no more PvP.

It's a problem of people only wanting to dominate, but not be dominant. They're not really looking for PvP so much as they are looking to show off their e-peen.

How does this supposition have anything to do with the current state of PvP in ESO? Have you been actively PvPing this game? Have you heard from others that this is the reason they are no longer playing? Because it sounds like you are just rambling without any specific knowledge of the situation.

Get rid of these people just trying to start trouble please...they are trying to start fights with everyone that responds to this thread.

Lynx7386

None of the above (well, they all contributed, but none are major reasons IMO).

-Poor stat scaling system that makes vet ranked players vastly superior to v1/sub-50 players
-NPC guards that can easily take out even organized pvp groups
-Lack of collision detection to allow 'tanking' and tactical manuvering in pvp
-Poorly balanced damage to survivability ratio (aka dying in 5 seconds after having to spend ten minutes just getting to the action)
-An overall poor design decision to limit the viability of various player builds by making magic-based characters far superior to melee based characters

Dealdrick

All of the above

AryaWythers wrote: »

Dealdrick wrote: »

AryaWythers wrote: »

Dealdrick wrote: »

AryaWythers wrote: »

Sorry I think the fact that it's a PvE based MMO is what killed PvP.

1- It is currently not a good PvE game with the broken classes, bugs and negative view of VR content

2- If you don't offer any legit reason or explanation for a claim like this no one will care what that claim is.

Did you forget why you are voting on this post...doesn't matter how I feel PvP is still DEAD

Yes, PvP is in a terrible state, as is the game as a whole, but that doesn't mean that making wild claims with nothing to support those claims will somehow breath life back into Cyrodill.

You can look up my posts instead of sitting here playing games and trying to bait me into some sort of argument...go Play the game and leave people alone, why you obsessed with my single post here? And elsewhere?

I paid plenty for the game can I not post in the forums Mr Stalin?

Never said you couldn't post, just saying that making a silly claim like "the fact that it's a PvE based MMO is what killed PvP" without at least a theory as to why this is the case is ridiculous.

Everyone knew that PvP was going to restricted to just Cyrodill well before launch, even well before you could pre-order.

There was no bait-and-switch about what "kind" of game it is, Zeni hasn't come out and said "PvE is more important than PvP," if anything the problem is they haven't done enough with either aspect of the game.

Yes, I agree with you that PvP is in a bad state, yes I agree that it is 100% on the devs, but no, I do not agree that making claims like that are either a) true or b) helpful. Deal with it

AryaWythers

Just leave me alone I responded to this thread and not you...start your own thread and fight with people there, my god. I'm not even reading your responses. You should learn to leave people alone and just post your thoughts against the ideas that the thread is about and not target every person who doesn't agree with you.

I have made hundreds of post and many threads that didn't accomplish anything for PvP...so don't lecture me please! I don't need to explain myself to you.

Glurin

Dealdrick wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

IMO, what kills PvP more than anything is people switching sides or just leaving altogether when they start losing. This creates one side that has an overwhelming numbers advantage over the others, which leads to more people leaving the low population factions and so on. Then people complain because there is no one left to fight, so there is no more PvP.

It's a problem of people only wanting to dominate, but not be dominant. They're not really looking for PvP so much as they are looking to show off their e-peen.

How does this supposition have anything to do with the current state of PvP in ESO? Have you been actively PvPing this game? Have you heard from others that this is the reason they are no longer playing? Because it sounds like you are just rambling without any specific knowledge of the situation.

You've seen the threads with people talking about the various campaigns being dominated by one faction or another, yes? Where the opposing faction's numbers dwindled to virtually nothing over time? Here's a tip. It doesn't only happen in ESO. It happens in every game with faction based PvP, and I've been around enough to see it happen again and again. I've been on both the winning and losing faction and I've even witnessed, first hand, an entire guild switch factions for precisely this reason.

The only reason Wabbajack is as populated as it is is because everybody eventually migrated there more or less by default as they left the other campaigns.

TheGrandAlliance

Uhmmmmmm nothing killed PvP LOL... still people there... (at least EU Side)

TheBucket

Dealdrick wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

IMO, what kills PvP more than anything is people switching sides or just leaving altogether when they start losing. This creates one side that has an overwhelming numbers advantage over the others, which leads to more people leaving the low population factions and so on. Then people complain because there is no one left to fight, so there is no more PvP.

It's a problem of people only wanting to dominate, but not be dominant. They're not really looking for PvP so much as they are looking to show off their e-peen.

How does this supposition have anything to do with the current state of PvP in ESO? Have you been actively PvPing this game? Have you heard from others that this is the reason they are no longer playing? Because it sounds like you are just rambling without any specific knowledge of the situation.

To be honest. This whole poll and most of the threads like it are a supposition. Yet, it doesn't stop people from posting them

Orchish

Lag

The constant and horrible laggy combat on the EU server is killing PvP for me. Recently not a single EU campaign even maxes out during prime time, couple weeks back we had 4 that would fill up. Even with the low pop, zone chat is full of people moaning about the lag. We are paying a sub fee and getting a poor service (pvp only here) in return.

Dealdrick

All of the above

Glurin wrote: »

Dealdrick wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

IMO, what kills PvP more than anything is people switching sides or just leaving altogether when they start losing. This creates one side that has an overwhelming numbers advantage over the others, which leads to more people leaving the low population factions and so on. Then people complain because there is no one left to fight, so there is no more PvP.

It's a problem of people only wanting to dominate, but not be dominant. They're not really looking for PvP so much as they are looking to show off their e-peen.

How does this supposition have anything to do with the current state of PvP in ESO? Have you been actively PvPing this game? Have you heard from others that this is the reason they are no longer playing? Because it sounds like you are just rambling without any specific knowledge of the situation.

You've seen the threads with people talking about the various campaigns being dominated by one faction or another, yes? Where the opposing faction's numbers dwindled to virtually nothing over time? Here's a tip. It doesn't only happen in ESO. It happens in every game with faction based PvP, and I've been around enough to see it happen again and again. I've been on both the winning and losing faction and I've even witnessed, first hand, an entire guild switch factions for precisely this reason.

The only reason Wabbajack is as populated as it is is because everybody eventually migrated there more or less by default as they left the other campaigns.

Ya, people could switch campaigns or guest into another, the population was controlled by the masses, as with every MMO pretty much ever. This isn't anything new. Go all the way back to DAOC and look at the population break downs among the factions, why did the PvP thrive there and fail here? The answer is that population balance isn't why ESO PvP is dead.

AryaWythers

Game Devs and un-educated ZoS forum moderators killed PvP

driosketch

Lag

Population imbalance and the various things that contribute to and exacerbate it. Specifically I mean anything that discourages players form Cyrodiil, and sends them else where.

You may not like the zerg, but the zerg is composed of the bulk of players, especially the low level and less skilled players as that's the safest most profitable place for them to be. Lack of AoE caps might actually kill PvP faster than having them. When I see videos of people declaring what's wrong with PvP in ESO it's usually either one player being able to fight 30 or it's exploits.

Also note that the PvP player base for this game is apparently very small.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/104489/what-type-of-player-are-you-pvp-pve-rp-etc-fixed/p1

It's obvious why caltrops fix is lower priority than the vet mobs difficulty bug that was getting addressed a day later.

P.S. I chose lag as that's the most legitimate thing on your list that isn't on there twice or something that started after the drop off, (and I wanted to see what the actual voting was). That is, unless one considers "All of the Above" to include items you didn't list.

ThyIronFist

All of the above

All of the above. Zenimax will kill their own game and they are doing a good job already.

wpitterlb14a_ESO

I don't think that any of the poll options are the most significant factor in the current state of pvp (or lack thereof).

AE caps - Look, I get it, AE caps make zerging and stacking the most viable strategy, which leads to boring gameplay. But so far I don't actually see this happening. The zergs form and they go where they will, but thats a function of the objective based game play (capturing keeps), and to some extent the utter disorganization of 90% of the player base, not the AE caps. I have yet to see a tightly clumped ball of players rush through a mass of AoE spam and come out unscathed on the other side. Maybe thats also due to the utter disorganization of 90% of the player base, but the point is I'm not buying this as THE reason, or even a mildly significant reason, for the mass exodus of pvpers.

The fact that ZOS ignored the ae cap poll - I'll grant that it is extremely frustrating for players to see overwhelming support (from other players) for changing a game mechanic, and then no response from the devs about it. But anyone who is being even slightly honest with themselves knows that even if ZoS is considering changing something as significant as this, that they aren't going to confirm it right away, and even if they do, given the pace of change in this game, we're looking at a minimum of a few months to see this go live. Again, I just don't buy that there was some sort of mass exodus of players just because ZoS didn't immediately pull a 180 on a game design decision that they almost certainly spent an enormous amount of time debating internally already.

Merc spam - This didn't become a major issue until 1.1.2 with the introduction of the glitched invulnerable mercs. PvP population had already tanked by then. Certainly this isn't doing the current population any favors, but again, I don't consider this to be a significant reason for the decline.

Lag - This is the most likely of all the options. Especially since 1.1.2 hit, the complaints of massive lag have gone through the roof. I think that there is still a more important issue at hand though.

Caltrops bug - Incredibly annoying? Sure. The thing that killed pvp? No.

The fact that caltrops werent removed in the meantime - This is probably the closest to my answer, but I'm going to go much broader.

To put it simply, I think that people have just lost faith that ZoS cares about pvp. The caltrops issue is a great example - it would be so easy to disable caltrops until they worked out the bugs in the code. But instead they let it go on being abused, for weeks on end. Just like they did with the vampire ult abuse. I don't think that the glitches and exploits themselves are what really killed pvp (granted they helped though) - its the response from ZoS that has driven the players away. They see severely broken mechanics being abused constantly by countless players, they know everyone else is aware of it, they know ZoS is aware of it, and yet nothing gets done about it. People are willing to endure massive amounts of annoyance so long as they can maintain the belief that things are getting better. But when the expectation becomes "I'm going to have to deal with every new exploit that comes out for a minimum of a MONTH before I can expect ZoS to even TRY to fix it", it shatters that faith. We all know that new bugs and new exploits are going to be found (or introduced by patches), its the nature of MMO's, especially new ones. In order to maintain that belief that things are going to get better, you have to believe that the dev team is both capable and willing to address critical, game breaking exploits in a timely manner. This is where ZoS has failed horribly. Their idea of fixing critical game breaking exploits is "hey, we know about this issue, we'll patch it in a few weeks mmkay guys?". It just isn't acceptable.

Nooblet

AE caps

Healing (horribly done for competetive play)
AoE caps
Balance(including very tanky builds with high dps)
Blocking
Targeting (or lack of)
No alliance pride
Only one PvP zone instead of one zone per alliance to consider their own, and provide more tactical and/or unpredictable play.
Little incentive for group vs group play.
PvP progression that generally no-one cares about, along with currency that buys nothing useful.

Wasn't sure what poll option, I choose AoE caps because I don't think all of the OP choices were even big issues, bugs will be bugs.

Khyras

Rank 10vs VR 10,extremely low and slow XP gain in PvP,EU server located in US (LOL),extreme class imbalance,only one PvP option cant even duel to test your class/spec against equal oponents.PvP feels like early beta stage and they expect people to pay sub for it.Think again.