WRONG FEEDBACK SOURCE Streamers don't represent most players

S1ipperyJim · February 2017

silky_soft wrote: »

Well they say 'top' theory crafters. Which is code for streamers that just copy other people builds and play them to a larger audience.

You want top theory crafters you need to look for the people who are cult heroes. Who are weeks if not months ahead of metas.

True, unless they are inviting people like Gil and Streakone, inviting people who openly copy their builds is not really representative of actual genuine theorycrafters

UrQuan · February 2017

Ideally I'd want to see them taking a lot of feedback from top theorycrafters, as well as very casual players. Have the top theorycrafters PVP against each other and run the toughest content, while the very casual players PVP against each other and run the type of content they'd be likely to run in-game anyway. That way you do a good job of testing the balance at the high end, while also making sure that things seem relatively balanced to people who don't eat drink and breathe the game. If feedback from one group contradicts feedback from the other it would have to be a judgment call, but most of the time the feedback from the top theorycrafters should prevail.

Why introduce very casual players to the mix? Because if things seem badly balanced to them (even if at top levels the balance is right), then that's reflective of the experience that a newer player will have. If newer players feel like the game is badly balanced (even if it's not at top levels), then they aren't likely to stick around. Any game like this will only survive as long as it keeps attracting new players to offset the inevitable attrition of long-time players that will occur no matter how good you are at retaining them. New players who leave almost immediately don't help with that though - they need to stay around long enough to turn into long-time players.

As far as the specific people being invited to this... Well, I haven't seen a list of them (I doubt anyone has), so I really can't judge whether ZOS has made good choices there or not. I've heard 3 names in particular, and honestly I don't regularly watch any of them. From what I have seen from them, though, I respect 2 of them.

Oompuh · February 2017

S1ipperyJim wrote: »

silky_soft wrote: »

Well they say 'top' theory crafters. Which is code for streamers that just copy other people builds and play them to a larger audience.

You want top theory crafters you need to look for the people who are cult heroes. Who are weeks if not months ahead of metas.

True, unless they are inviting people like Gil and Streakone, inviting people who openly copy their builds is not really representative of actual genuine theorycrafters

Gilliam was invited and will be going to Zenimax HQ. Unsure about streak

jpeter88 · February 2017

sypher hands down knows PvP

deltia knows the game pretty well from top to bottom both pve and pvp

most of the top eso youtubers are at the "top" for a reason, they play every class, do all the content, they play the game a ton.

I think its about time they bring people in, they dont bring in people from the forums because most of the forum posters just complain, bash and whine about things THEY dont like offering zero constructive feedback. now i do see some posters that offer good knowledge but its vastly outdone and overlooked by the negative comments.

S1ipperyJim · February 2017

Oompuh wrote: »

S1ipperyJim wrote: »

silky_soft wrote: »

Well they say 'top' theory crafters. Which is code for streamers that just copy other people builds and play them to a larger audience.

You want top theory crafters you need to look for the people who are cult heroes. Who are weeks if not months ahead of metas.

True, unless they are inviting people like Gil and Streakone, inviting people who openly copy their builds is not really representative of actual genuine theorycrafters

Gilliam was invited and will be going to Zenimax HQ. Unsure about streak

Nice!

LrdRahvin · February 2017

Deleted

Cadbury · February 2017

I guess we'll see future developments in Zerg technology

Rohamad_Ali · February 2017

@Sypher , if you could relay one very important concern of mine about the complete lack of Khajiit centric expansions , missions and content . I hope someone is representing the casual Khajiit players there and will promote all things Khajiit for the Khajiit community . Longer fur , bleached out fur on vampire Khajiit and obysmal passives come to the top of my head . Surely this would have been the most important focus if I had been present but in lue of this unfortunate mishap , I trust you will make things right and thank you for being a hostage so this important message could get relayed to the proper channels .

Woeler · February 2017

They want balance feedback. You can't get that from people that have no clue how to play their class.

Or lets invite frag hardcasters and buff sorc even more.

Rjizzle09 · February 2017

Lmao i cant believe someone even said this lol ZOS definitley does not listen to streamers they definitely listen to casual players players WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYY before they even listen to elite gamers. Zis cares about elite players like .00000000000000000001 percent like we barely matter at all

Blacksmoke · February 2017

Awhh you think ZoS will listen to their player base? Thats adorable!

Nothing is going to change ZoS only cares about profit and not about improving the game just accept that and enjoy playing

Korah_Eaglecry · February 2017

Phinix1 wrote: »

Streamers do what they do to get sponsors, NOT to "represent the players" or some other starry-eyed nonsense.

I have never seen anything productive come of these meetings. If anything, the primary purpose it serves is to pacify the most vocal members of the community so people like Deltia will maybe not be so quick to dis things like casino crates next time, since they are being given special treatment. Less likely to bite the hand that feeds and all. So they throw 'em a bone.

People with legitimate constructive criticism are most often flatly ignored and frequently demonized and attacked by people on the forums thinking they are doing their part to "make positivism for the sake of it great again."

I have never met a company or community so allergic to constructive criticism as this one. Here it is treated like anything that isn't kitten memes and compliments is an evil, hostile attack against everything good and right in the world.

Sheesh...

Also, I think it's pretty crappy how mod and addon authors are always left out in the cold and treated sort of like second class citizens next to their PR pets. They are seemingly just taken for granted for the most part.

We are expected to fix bugs and generate value for the company for free. We don't even get crown perks or community picks for some meaningless title or anything. Fine whatever, I do it as a hobby. But so do streamers. Yet streamers get big time sponsorship and MONEY for THEIR hobby.

I'd be lucky to make enough in donations to pay my monthly sub.

Then when it comes time to talk to the people that are generating hype for the game who gets invited? The twitch crowd of course. Meh. More fuel for the meta-chasing homogenization of all classes and builds.

And ZOS STILL won't balance PVE and PVP separately (pure laziness) so every patch they further destroy unique play styles to counter the current PVP meta that people like Sypher and Fengrush and Deltia create.

Seems legit. Only invite echos to the chamber.

While I agree Ive also seen Online Communities be the complete opposite where any thing and everything is an open target for scrutiny. And if you dont side with those denouncing the company youre a fanboy and an apologist. Your voice is completely stamped out by those looking for something to be upset over and outraged by.

Personally I think the ESO Forums, while its members will always need to work towards bettering themselves and their communication skills, for the most part is tame compared to what Ive seen elsewhere. Go say something nice about Cryptic in the Star Trek Online forums. See how far that will get you. Youd think a community built up around a TV/Movie Franchise based on a Utopian future would be more excepting and willing to listen like their beloved Captain Picard. But Ive seen that forums go up in flames over a mild hint of a homosexual couple in game. One that wasnt even new to the game but had never been seen together before. Ive seen that forum go up like a nuke over a change to EXP because a known farming area was a more popular spot than the new content released that week.

Sure we get our occasional forum fire here and there when something shocking happens. But most of the time this place acts more like a release valve rather than a bombing range like other places.

DragonBound · February 2017

I do not care for most of them to be honest, if anything I learned playing mmorpgs is popular youtubers do not create the meta and can make mistakes and very well may not share there personal builds, in fact I do not think most do, I wouldn't lol but what I do like is video opinions on various skills not builds.

But that does not mean they do not have decent build guides.

cheemers · February 2017

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Phinix1 wrote: »

Also, I think it's pretty crappy how mod and addon authors are always left out in the cold and treated sort of like second class citizens next to their PR pets. They are seemingly just taken for granted for the most part.

We are expected to fix bugs and generate value for the company for free. We don't even get crown perks or community picks for some meaningless title or anything. Fine whatever, I do it as a hobby. But so do streamers. Yet streamers get big time sponsorship and MONEY for THEIR hobby.

I'd be lucky to make enough in donations to pay my monthly sub.

This is what I don't get.

In all honesty if Deltia et al never made another video it would not diminish my game fun one bit, and I am not being disrespectful by that.

But without the UI Modders this game would be borderline unplayable, and my game fun would very much be diminished.

All The Best

Remember that PC players are a tiny tiny minority of the overall ESO population. For me and most other console players, the only relevance add ons have are to give me a chuckle when I read about PC players' woes with crap like miat's. But deltia's videos (to use your example) are platform agnostic and remain entertaining / relevant.

[Deleted User] · February 2017

Hello everyone,

We recently noticed that there have been some naming and shaming, insulting comments and even mentions of real-world politics. For continuation of this discussion, please be sure to keep the Forum Rules in mind, and refrain from labeling anyone as exploiters or claiming that any one persons opinion is less than your own. I'm sure we're all here to help make the game a better place for all, no need to put another person down for wanting to help do so.

Thank you for understanding.

willlienellson · February 2017

jpeter88 wrote: »

sypher hands down knows PvP

No doubt, but that doesn't mean his experiences reflect the average pvp experience.

His pvp environment adjusts to him. People out of fear, respect, and collusion give him a pass. I've seen it many times. And not just him. And that "pass" is just one example.

His experience is hardly representative.

Furthermore, suggesting that Sypher should have extra influence with Zos' balancing because he is great at pvp is ludicrous. It's like suggesting whoever hits the most home runs should get invited to MLB headquarters to make the rules for next season.

Dawnblade · February 2017

cheemers wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Phinix1 wrote: »

Also, I think it's pretty crappy how mod and addon authors are always left out in the cold and treated sort of like second class citizens next to their PR pets. They are seemingly just taken for granted for the most part.

We are expected to fix bugs and generate value for the company for free. We don't even get crown perks or community picks for some meaningless title or anything. Fine whatever, I do it as a hobby. But so do streamers. Yet streamers get big time sponsorship and MONEY for THEIR hobby.

I'd be lucky to make enough in donations to pay my monthly sub.

This is what I don't get.

In all honesty if Deltia et al never made another video it would not diminish my game fun one bit, and I am not being disrespectful by that.

But without the UI Modders this game would be borderline unplayable, and my game fun would very much be diminished.

All The Best

Remember that PC players are a tiny tiny minority of the overall ESO population. For me and most other console players, the only relevance add ons have are to give me a chuckle when I read about PC players' woes with crap like miat's. But deltia's videos (to use your example) are platform agnostic and remain entertaining / relevant.

What percentage does 'tiny minority' represent? Also source please.

Rohamad_Ali · February 2017

Also the sweetroll is the bestest of foods in the culinary arsenal of provisioners and a staple of the iconic foods associated with Elder Scrolls . Why on Nirn someone decided that was ok to be a blue food recipe is beyond me and needs to be adjusted to represent it's greatness by making the Sweetroll a purple 3 stat food with the max buffs available . This was one of the worst oversights since the beta and is needing to be corrected before Marrowind . Ok now I'm done an apologies for a little off topic .

hamgatan · February 2017

cheemers wrote: »

Remember that PC players are a tiny tiny minority of the overall ESO population. For me and most other console players, the only relevance add ons have are to give me a chuckle when I read about PC players' woes with crap like miat's. But deltia's videos (to use your example) are platform agnostic and remain entertaining / relevant.

i'm not entirely sure about that. i play on both PC and XB1. when i'm logged in with PC there seems to be a good population... but XB1 at the same time.. not so. id say its on par. even last night i would have thought with the PC NA/EU servers down for patch maintenance that there might have been a spike in console usage.. nope. i rode around greenshade doing my own thing and it was 30mins before i saw another player.

cheemers · February 2017

Dawnblade wrote: »

cheemers wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Phinix1 wrote: »

Also, I think it's pretty crappy how mod and addon authors are always left out in the cold and treated sort of like second class citizens next to their PR pets. They are seemingly just taken for granted for the most part.

We are expected to fix bugs and generate value for the company for free. We don't even get crown perks or community picks for some meaningless title or anything. Fine whatever, I do it as a hobby. But so do streamers. Yet streamers get big time sponsorship and MONEY for THEIR hobby.

I'd be lucky to make enough in donations to pay my monthly sub.

This is what I don't get.

In all honesty if Deltia et al never made another video it would not diminish my game fun one bit, and I am not being disrespectful by that.

But without the UI Modders this game would be borderline unplayable, and my game fun would very much be diminished.

All The Best

Remember that PC players are a tiny tiny minority of the overall ESO population. For me and most other console players, the only relevance add ons have are to give me a chuckle when I read about PC players' woes with crap like miat's. But deltia's videos (to use your example) are platform agnostic and remain entertaining / relevant.

What percentage does 'tiny minority' represent? Also source please.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that PC is no more than a third of the total population, if that. Or do you need an add-on to help you with that?

I'm not going to rake through forum threads to satisfy your citation needs, but if you've spent any great time following ESO threads you'll have realised that multi-platform players have remarked on the relative scarcity of players on PC platforms compared to their console counterparts.

DragonBound · February 2017

Dawnblade wrote: »

cheemers wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Phinix1 wrote: »

Also, I think it's pretty crappy how mod and addon authors are always left out in the cold and treated sort of like second class citizens next to their PR pets. They are seemingly just taken for granted for the most part.

We are expected to fix bugs and generate value for the company for free. We don't even get crown perks or community picks for some meaningless title or anything. Fine whatever, I do it as a hobby. But so do streamers. Yet streamers get big time sponsorship and MONEY for THEIR hobby.

I'd be lucky to make enough in donations to pay my monthly sub.

This is what I don't get.

In all honesty if Deltia et al never made another video it would not diminish my game fun one bit, and I am not being disrespectful by that.

But without the UI Modders this game would be borderline unplayable, and my game fun would very much be diminished.

All The Best

Remember that PC players are a tiny tiny minority of the overall ESO population. For me and most other console players, the only relevance add ons have are to give me a chuckle when I read about PC players' woes with crap like miat's. But deltia's videos (to use your example) are platform agnostic and remain entertaining / relevant.

What percentage does 'tiny minority' represent? Also source please.

Yes source please, on pc this is one of the most populated mmorpgs because it is one of the best new mmorpgs on the market.

Cadbury · February 2017

cheemers wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Phinix1 wrote: »

Also, I think it's pretty crappy how mod and addon authors are always left out in the cold and treated sort of like second class citizens next to their PR pets. They are seemingly just taken for granted for the most part.

We are expected to fix bugs and generate value for the company for free. We don't even get crown perks or community picks for some meaningless title or anything. Fine whatever, I do it as a hobby. But so do streamers. Yet streamers get big time sponsorship and MONEY for THEIR hobby.

I'd be lucky to make enough in donations to pay my monthly sub.

This is what I don't get.

In all honesty if Deltia et al never made another video it would not diminish my game fun one bit, and I am not being disrespectful by that.

But without the UI Modders this game would be borderline unplayable, and my game fun would very much be diminished.

All The Best

Remember that PC players are a tiny tiny minority of the overall ESO population. For me and most other console players, the only relevance add ons have are to give me a chuckle when I read about PC players' woes with crap like miat's. But deltia's videos (to use your example) are platform agnostic and remain entertaining / relevant.

That's why I like Deltia. He's neutral and knowledgeable. He has my vote of confidence.

Doctordarkspawn · February 2017

Precisely this.

Stop paying attention to the 1% with a camera. They do not represent us.

bitels · February 2017

cheemers wrote: »

Dawnblade wrote: »

cheemers wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Phinix1 wrote: »

Also, I think it's pretty crappy how mod and addon authors are always left out in the cold and treated sort of like second class citizens next to their PR pets. They are seemingly just taken for granted for the most part.

We are expected to fix bugs and generate value for the company for free. We don't even get crown perks or community picks for some meaningless title or anything. Fine whatever, I do it as a hobby. But so do streamers. Yet streamers get big time sponsorship and MONEY for THEIR hobby.

I'd be lucky to make enough in donations to pay my monthly sub.

This is what I don't get.

In all honesty if Deltia et al never made another video it would not diminish my game fun one bit, and I am not being disrespectful by that.

But without the UI Modders this game would be borderline unplayable, and my game fun would very much be diminished.

All The Best

Remember that PC players are a tiny tiny minority of the overall ESO population. For me and most other console players, the only relevance add ons have are to give me a chuckle when I read about PC players' woes with crap like miat's. But deltia's videos (to use your example) are platform agnostic and remain entertaining / relevant.

What percentage does 'tiny minority' represent? Also source please.

Dawnblade wrote: »

cheemers wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Phinix1 wrote: »

Also, I think it's pretty crappy how mod and addon authors are always left out in the cold and treated sort of like second class citizens next to their PR pets. They are seemingly just taken for granted for the most part.

We are expected to fix bugs and generate value for the company for free. We don't even get crown perks or community picks for some meaningless title or anything. Fine whatever, I do it as a hobby. But so do streamers. Yet streamers get big time sponsorship and MONEY for THEIR hobby.

I'd be lucky to make enough in donations to pay my monthly sub.

This is what I don't get.

In all honesty if Deltia et al never made another video it would not diminish my game fun one bit, and I am not being disrespectful by that.

But without the UI Modders this game would be borderline unplayable, and my game fun would very much be diminished.

All The Best

Remember that PC players are a tiny tiny minority of the overall ESO population. For me and most other console players, the only relevance add ons have are to give me a chuckle when I read about PC players' woes with crap like miat's. But deltia's videos (to use your example) are platform agnostic and remain entertaining / relevant.

What percentage does 'tiny minority' represent? Also source please.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that PC is no more than a third of the total population, if that. Or do you need an add-on to help you with that?

I'm not going to rake through forum threads to satisfy your citation needs, but if you've spent any great time following ESO threads you'll have realised that multi-platform players have remarked on the relative scarcity of players on PC platforms compared to their console counterparts.

Well if you learn that on forum, based on at least few players feelings then its must to be true then. No doubt about it

Gallifreyy · February 2017

willlienellson wrote: »

jpeter88 wrote: »

sypher hands down knows PvP

No doubt, but that doesn't mean his experiences reflect the average pvp experience.

His pvp environment adjusts to him. People out of fear, respect, and collusion give him a pass. I've seen it many times. And not just him. And that "pass" is just one example.

His experience is hardly representative.

Furthermore, suggesting that Sypher should have extra influence with Zos' balancing because he is great at pvp is ludicrous. It's like suggesting whoever hits the most home runs should get invited to MLB headquarters to make the rules for next season.

You seem to have very little knowledge of marketing as well as how MMO's and games work. To my knowledge ZOS has selected people in the ESO community that actually play the game that are influential to a majority of the player base that actually plays the game (These includes streamers & YouTube content creators) to promote their game and not some random casual that plays maybe 1 or 2 times a week that doesn't know the difference between classes that doesn't talk to many people but is extremely vocal on forums accusing people left, right and centre.

willlienellson · February 2017

bitels wrote: »

Also- it isnt like they wont give us all chance to test things on PTS before realese, so maybe just chill

I'm so glad you brought that up. This proves my point ENTIRELY.
They almost never listen to any feedback from the PTS testers. It's a running joke.

Consider the Homestead patch released today. They were told weeks ago that there was a lighting bug that didn't exist during the first PTS patch. So, they did something to create this bug.

It's been the subject of multiple threads for weeks with hundreds of comments on the forums.
Zos never even bothered to reply at all, even up to the time of me writing this post afaik.

That is to say nothing of actual feedback on features and balance. It's a joke, and I must assume (correct me if I'm wrong) that you have no personal experience on the PTS, or you would have never used it as an example to refute me.

Players download 80GB of data to test patches on the PTS and are almost exclusively ignored. It's a GREAT EXAMPLE of exactly what I'm talking about when I contrast the way they treat average player feedback and consensus with the youtube/streamer/elite microcommunity to which they cater.

Ragnaroek93 · February 2017

Well I can understand why ZOS is doing this but I don't think that this is the solution. I just think that the game is way too complex to be balanced by opinions from players (even from good players) and players are always biased in some ways and do mistakes. Most people doesn't know me at all, but I do actually compete with top players in the game and I do happily admit that I can't balance the game in the current state (I think I'm better than most PvP players

). What we do need in my opinion is:
a) a concept which we balance the game around (concept will probably be battlegrounds)
b) empiric data from winrates of classes and builds
c) small patches every few weeks instead of these monsterchanges after several months
d) some kind of matchmaking to prevent normal players getting pubstomped by elite players

Furthermore I think that every opinion should matter in some way. I know that bad players can't talk about balance, but they can still give feedback about design choices from ZOS (for example AoE caps). I'm pretty sure that elite players would love to turn Cyrodiil into a pubstomping area where organized groups run over normal people all day long. This would indeed only help a small minority of players while making the experience of the majority of people worse.

I don't want to offend any streamers with this post, pretty much every streamer I've fought against on EU or NA (PTS) are great players without any doubts, that's just my personal opinion. I also don't know who exactly is invited at all, so I might be totally wrong as well.

willlienellson · February 2017

Oompuh wrote: »

The fact of that matter is they have Streamers, Youtubers, Hardcore PvE'rs like members of Hodor and Mundus, and PvPr's and other notable names. They know their names, we know their names, they're not just gonna ask random people who play their game to COME ON DOWN like this is the Price is Right or something.

Then why bother with the forums? Why even have them?
Why even have the feedback button in the game?

If you think I'm suggesting they should have selected different people to physically travel to Maryland to give feedback, you've wildly misunderstood my meaning. Nobody needed to go.

They have multiple mechanisms for feedback that they ALREADY IGNORE, while pandering to this elite community so they can get free advertising.
________________________________________________________________________________________

Let's be real about the relationship between these members and Zos. It is a symbiotic relationship where these people use the game to try to gain personal fame and in some cases income, and in exchange Zos gets free advertising in the process.

And that's 100% okay. But they don't need to pander to them. The symbiotic relationship would exist without it.

cpuScientist · February 2017

And they take our feedback and use it. Just because they don't agree with the feedback or put all of it into place doesn't mean they don't use it. They listened to mag sorcs this patch about burst. They listen, but many on these forums do not know anything about balance sooo.... Why can't they also bring streamers in aswell...

SnubbS · February 2017

This thread is essentially in favor of communism -- I disapprove.