hoangdz wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Streak is not getting nerfed lol. No valid reason to nerf this ability at all.

"No valid reason at all" is a pretty hard claim to make when I've already given several specific reasons for a nerf.

I've pointed out that Streak is an instant AoE CC that is unblockable and undodgeable, has no meaningful target cap, deals damage, and is attached to arguably the strongest mobility ability in the game. There isn't another ability that comes close to combining that level of utility, CC, and mobility into one skill.

I've also explained why the lack of a target cap is particularly problematic in group PvP, where small groups and ball groups can use it for instant mass CC.

You don't have to agree that those things justify a nerf, but simply saying there is "no valid reason at all" without addressing any of them isn't really an argument. It's just dismissing the argument without engaging with it.

If none of those are valid reasons in your view, then explain why. That's the part I'm interested in hearing.

All of the points you said have been present in every argument favoring Streak nerfs for the past 5 years, yet nothing happened. Why?

It's because spending just 1 hour in PvP will unveal the nuances of Streak that makes the skill balanced:

1) Instant unblockable and undodgable AoE CC

You forgot to mention it's a 15m skill shot that requires aiming and fails to work on uneven terrain and against mobile targets.

2) Has no meaningful target cap and deals damage

Yes, I expect Streak to function like that if it teleports my character INTO a group of enemies. Imagine kiting 7 people, then Streaking TOWARDS them to stun them instead of away. With that kind of risk, Streak SHOULD have unlimited target cap

3) Strongest mobility skill in the game

Yes, until you find out that merely sprinting with decent movement speed can let you catch up to a Streaking Sorc, or when uneven terrain reduces your Streak distance massively. Let's not forget the 50% cost increase per cast.

4) Lack of AoE cap

Why would that be problematic? By implication, you are saying that large groups should be able to mow down smaller groups and smaller groups shouldn't have any tools to deal with a zerg blob. This is an unhealthy way to look at PvP

1) "It's a 15m skill shot that requires aiming."

Calling Streak a skill shot is misleading. It has the same width as Templar Jabs while having about twice the length. Jabs is hardly considered a skill shot, and Streak is even easier to land because of its combination of width and range.

Yes, you can technically miss it if you close your eyes, but "you have to aim it" isn't meaningful counterplay when the ability is that easy to connect with.

2) "It teleports you into a group, so it should have unlimited targets."

This is where the argument gets especially strange. You're essentially saying that Streak needs to be balanced around the ability to 1v7 people, so it deserves to remain overpowered.

That's a pretty ironic justification for a balance argument.

Werewolf Fear and Fighter's Guild fears have target caps, despite requiring you to be much more committed to being on top of your targets. Those abilities don't let you apply the CC from range, immediately travel through the entire group, and then continue moving away using the same ability.

Streak gets to approach, CC everyone along its path, deal damage, and keep moving. That's a tremendous amount of utility from one button.

3) "It's not the strongest mobility because people can sprint after you."

That's not really a meaningful rebuttal. Both players can sprint; the difference is that the Sorc can sprint at the same time while repeatedly teleporting forward with Streak, constantly creating additional distance.

And I never argued that Streak's mobility needs to be nerfed. The mobility isn't the issue—the CC is.

4) "The lack of an AoE cap is necessary to fight zergs."

Again, this seems to be arguing that Streak needs to retain every possible advantage because it allows a player to fight disproportionately large groups.

But no other CC gets to have every upside simultaneously. You don't get an AoE CC that's instant, unblockable, undodgeable, extremely easy to land, unlimited in targets, ranged, damaging, AND attached to your strongest mobility tool without having to give something up.

That's the actual issue I'm pointing out.

I'm not saying Streak shouldn't be strong. I'm saying it shouldn't get every single upside with none of the normal tradeoffs.

If the mobility remains exceptional, then the CC can have a target cap. If the CC remains unblockable and undodgeable, then there can be another limitation. If unlimited targets are considered essential for anti-zerg gameplay, then there should be some other meaningful drawback.

But "I need unlimited AoE CC because otherwise I can't 1v7" isn't really evidence that the current version is balanced. If anything, arguing that Streak needs all of these advantages so you can reliably 1v7 people is making my argument for me about how overtuned the ability is.

I agree that Streak needs aim and skill in Vengeance. On live, the unblockable undodgable CC portion is extremely braindead. Templar javelin requires more aiming skill and it's single target and dodgeable.

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Streak is not getting nerfed lol. No valid reason to nerf this ability at all.

"No valid reason at all" is a pretty hard claim to make when I've already given several specific reasons for a nerf.

I've pointed out that Streak is an instant AoE CC that is unblockable and undodgeable, has no meaningful target cap, deals damage, and is attached to arguably the strongest mobility ability in the game. There isn't another ability that comes close to combining that level of utility, CC, and mobility into one skill.

I've also explained why the lack of a target cap is particularly problematic in group PvP, where small groups and ball groups can use it for instant mass CC.

You don't have to agree that those things justify a nerf, but simply saying there is "no valid reason at all" without addressing any of them isn't really an argument. It's just dismissing the argument without engaging with it.

If none of those are valid reasons in your view, then explain why. That's the part I'm interested in hearing.

1) Instant unblockable and undodgable AoE CC

You forgot to mention it's a 15m skill shot that requires aiming and fails to work on uneven terrain and against mobile targets.

Let's not forget the 50% cost increase per cast.

It's a 33% cost increase per cast, not 50%. If you're going to make a balance argument, at least know how the skill actually functions.

And the claim that Streak "fails to work on uneven terrain" is simply false. It works perfectly fine going downhill. The only meaningful terrain limitation is going uphill, where you might only travel roughly 12–13m instead of the advertised 15m.

So you've managed to misstate the cost increase and completely misrepresent the terrain interaction in the same argument. If we're going to have a balance discussion, let's not start our arguments by outright lying about how the ability works.

Even @Wuuffyy pointed it out above, he's a well-known Sorc player and knows exactly how Streak works. This isn't a case of misunderstanding the ability; he's muddying the waters by exaggerating its supposed drawbacks to make the skill look more balanced than it actually is.

Lets nerf streak, and also javelin and then toppling charge, then leap and also why not shield charge while we are at it.

Actually just nerf moving so while in combat its no longer possible to move.

Come on guys! Stop! It's an "iconic" part of the class! Nerf everything else, but I draw the line at streak!

Okay, actually I'm fine with everything being nerfed except my siege. It could use a buff tbh.

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

aLi3nZ wrote: »

Lets nerf streak, and also javelin and then toppling charge, then leap and also why not shield charge while we are at it.

Actually just nerf moving so while in combat its no longer possible to move.

Bud, no one is talking about nerfing the movement. They’re talking about the CC portion of it. Though frankly? I personally want the movement nerfed into the dirt. There’s no reason anyone should get to press a button three or four times and be halfway across the continent before I can finish reading their nameplate.

have you tried going triple swift trait with celerity cp points and 5pc of medium armour with a source of minor and major expedition or using wild hunt adept rider back bar or anything like that?

I do play sorc along with my other toons. I find dk and ww less skill required and are overpowered so unlike most here I only do the daily bg for xp and transmute then log off rather then take advantage, also my arc and nb gets boring for PvP.

Anyway, after 3 or 4 streaks majority of magika will be gone and I will be in serious trouble unless I have both good regen and a potion. Or I’m a max magika stacking and using conservation of energy which isn’t the meta these days.

So in most cases big trouble will be created doing that.

I run my sorc with 3x swift = 21% movement bonus increase + celerity = total 31% movement increase with full uptime on minor expedition for another 15% movement increase. Then have some medium armour and use sprint as well.

You will see so many good players investing into movement speed these days. At least 2x swift is common.

What are you doing besides complaining because even using streak 3-4 times someone who invested into speed and uses sprint and major expedition (dk wings, warden wings or race against time) is going to catch up pretty easily in most cases.

I am sick of all the nerfs but 1 thing I will say is if streak was to get a nerf I think the only thing about it that should be nerfed is how large of an area it applies to. It took me years using it to even realise but the area is pretty damn large.

But regardless I still think it should be left. Sorc has big penalties for not slotting actual sorc skills on their bar and if you nerf more of their abilities into oblivion it causes more and more issues.

Not sure why mages wrath went from 20 seconds originally to 2 seconds either. Barely anyone uses it now as a result. The skill is too slow to use compared to other executes as well.

wheres the downvote button when you need it

forum_propagandist wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Streak is not getting nerfed lol. No valid reason to nerf this ability at all.

"No valid reason at all" is a pretty hard claim to make when I've already given several specific reasons for a nerf.

I've pointed out that Streak is an instant AoE CC that is unblockable and undodgeable, has no meaningful target cap, deals damage, and is attached to arguably the strongest mobility ability in the game. There isn't another ability that comes close to combining that level of utility, CC, and mobility into one skill.

I've also explained why the lack of a target cap is particularly problematic in group PvP, where small groups and ball groups can use it for instant mass CC.

You don't have to agree that those things justify a nerf, but simply saying there is "no valid reason at all" without addressing any of them isn't really an argument. It's just dismissing the argument without engaging with it.

If none of those are valid reasons in your view, then explain why. That's the part I'm interested in hearing.

You forgot to mention it's a 15m skill shot that requires aiming and fails to work on uneven terrain and against mobile targets.

Imagine calling a 6×15m area a skill shot. LOL.

You barely need to aim — just point Streak in their general direction and you're hitting them. Calling this a skill shot like it requires precision is ridiculous. It's arguably the easiest CC in the game to land.

Easiest CC to land lol. Javelin is a max range CC that's way easier to land.

CannedChicken wrote: »

Calling Streak a skill shot is misleading. It has the same width as Templar Jabs while having about twice the length. Jabs is hardly considered a skill shot, and Streak is even easier to land because of its combination of width and range.

Yes, you can technically miss it if you close your eyes, but "you have to aim it" isn't meaningful counterplay when the ability is that easy to connect with.

Misleading? The definition of a skill shot is:

"An attack, spell, or shot in a game that requires manual aim, precise timing, or prediction of a moving target rather than locking on automatically."

Last time I checked, you need to aim Streak at a target. Also, comparing it to Jabs is a moot point. One skill is a spammable with ~2k cost, while the other is a stun with a ramping cost. You can spam Jabs, but you can't spam Streak without risking your entire magicka pool.

The counterplay to Streak is literally the same as everything else. Build movement speed and kite laterally.

CannedChicken wrote: »

This is where the argument gets especially strange. You're essentially saying that Streak needs to be balanced around the ability to 1v7 people, so it deserves to remain overpowered.

That's a pretty ironic justification for a balance argument.

Werewolf Fear and Fighter's Guild fears have target caps, despite requiring you to be much more committed to being on top of your targets. Those abilities don't let you apply the CC from range, immediately travel through the entire group, and then continue moving away using the same ability.

Streak gets to approach, CC everyone along its path, deal damage, and keep moving. That's a tremendous amount of utility from one button.

Yes, Streak is supposed to have that kind of utility because the class has always been a hit and run class. No, I'm not saying that Streak needs to be balanced around the ability to 1v7 people. I'm saying that Streak should be able to AoE stun players because it puts your character in a vulnerable position. Why would anybody in their right mind would streak into a large group to stun them when they could just Streak away instead?

As for FG's Fear, it is a universal ability and thus should be weaker than class abilities. By your logic, Dizzying Swing should be stronger than Surprise Attack, yet it is not the case as Surprise Attack deals more damage (with Sundered), procs Minor Breach reliably, and is instant cast.

CannedChicken wrote: »

That's not really a meaningful rebuttal. Both players can sprint; the difference is that the Sorc can sprint at the same time while repeatedly teleporting forward with Streak, constantly creating additional distance.

And I never argued that Streak's mobility needs to be nerfed. The mobility isn't the issue—the CC is.

But it is. Here is a video of me chasing down a magsorc spamming Streak. Throughout the video, I even failed to refresh Major Expedition, yet I almost caught up to him at the end. He only got away because he ported to IC.

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg

I don't think you actually spent time on Sorc, because if you did, you would have known that Streaking actually reduces your movement speed momentarily at the end of the Streak. When your character moves at the speed cap, it is better to just keep sprinting instead of Streaking.

CannedChicken wrote: »

Again, this seems to be arguing that Streak needs to retain every possible advantage because it allows a player to fight disproportionately large groups.

But no other CC gets to have every upside simultaneously. You don't get an AoE CC that's instant, unblockable, undodgeable, extremely easy to land, unlimited in targets, ranged, damaging, AND attached to your strongest mobility tool without having to give something up.

That's the actual issue I'm pointing out.

I'm not saying Streak shouldn't be strong. I'm saying it shouldn't get every single upside with none of the normal tradeoffs.

If the mobility remains exceptional, then the CC can have a target cap. If the CC remains unblockable and undodgeable, then there can be another limitation. If unlimited targets are considered essential for anti-zerg gameplay, then there should be some other meaningful drawback.

But "I need unlimited AoE CC because otherwise I can't 1v7" isn't really evidence that the current version is balanced. If anything, arguing that Streak needs all of these advantages so you can reliably 1v7 people is making my argument for me about how overtuned the ability is.

You are singling out 1 ability without looking at the entire class' archetype. It is a hit and run class with mostly non-scaling offensive heals. The class just lost Minor Prophecy in U51 too, and its main offensive heal, Crit Surge, requires dealing critical damage to proc.

If you want Streak nerfed, then I demand ZOS buff healing in other areas because it's absurd to ask for nerfs to 1 skill that has never been an issue for years. Not Conservation of Energy, but actual healing ability buffs.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Streak is not getting nerfed lol. No valid reason to nerf this ability at all.

"No valid reason at all" is a pretty hard claim to make when I've already given several specific reasons for a nerf.

I've pointed out that Streak is an instant AoE CC that is unblockable and undodgeable, has no meaningful target cap, deals damage, and is attached to arguably the strongest mobility ability in the game. There isn't another ability that comes close to combining that level of utility, CC, and mobility into one skill.

I've also explained why the lack of a target cap is particularly problematic in group PvP, where small groups and ball groups can use it for instant mass CC.

You don't have to agree that those things justify a nerf, but simply saying there is "no valid reason at all" without addressing any of them isn't really an argument. It's just dismissing the argument without engaging with it.

If none of those are valid reasons in your view, then explain why. That's the part I'm interested in hearing.

All of the points you said have been present in every argument favoring Streak nerfs for the past 5 years, yet nothing happened. Why?

It's because spending just 1 hour in PvP will unveal the nuances of Streak that makes the skill balanced:

1) Instant unblockable and undodgable AoE CC

You forgot to mention it's a 15m skill shot that requires aiming and fails to work on uneven terrain and against mobile targets.

2) Has no meaningful target cap and deals damage

Yes, I expect Streak to function like that if it teleports my character INTO a group of enemies. Imagine kiting 7 people, then Streaking TOWARDS them to stun them instead of away. With that kind of risk, Streak SHOULD have unlimited target cap

3) Strongest mobility skill in the game

Yes, until you find out that merely sprinting with decent movement speed can let you catch up to a Streaking Sorc, or when uneven terrain reduces your Streak distance massively. Let's not forget the 50% cost increase per cast.

4) Lack of AoE cap

Why would that be problematic? By implication, you are saying that large groups should be able to mow down smaller groups and smaller groups shouldn't have any tools to deal with a zerg blob. This is an unhealthy way to look at PvP

1) "It's a 15m skill shot that requires aiming."

Calling Streak a skill shot is misleading. It has the same width as Templar Jabs while having about twice the length. Jabs is hardly considered a skill shot, and Streak is even easier to land because of its combination of width and range.

Yes, you can technically miss it if you close your eyes, but "you have to aim it" isn't meaningful counterplay when the ability is that easy to connect with.

2) "It teleports you into a group, so it should have unlimited targets."

This is where the argument gets especially strange. You're essentially saying that Streak needs to be balanced around the ability to 1v7 people, so it deserves to remain overpowered.

That's a pretty ironic justification for a balance argument.

Werewolf Fear and Fighter's Guild fears have target caps, despite requiring you to be much more committed to being on top of your targets. Those abilities don't let you apply the CC from range, immediately travel through the entire group, and then continue moving away using the same ability.

Streak gets to approach, CC everyone along its path, deal damage, and keep moving. That's a tremendous amount of utility from one button.

3) "It's not the strongest mobility because people can sprint after you."

That's not really a meaningful rebuttal. Both players can sprint; the difference is that the Sorc can sprint at the same time while repeatedly teleporting forward with Streak, constantly creating additional distance.

And I never argued that Streak's mobility needs to be nerfed. The mobility isn't the issue—the CC is.

4) "The lack of an AoE cap is necessary to fight zergs."

Again, this seems to be arguing that Streak needs to retain every possible advantage because it allows a player to fight disproportionately large groups.

But no other CC gets to have every upside simultaneously. You don't get an AoE CC that's instant, unblockable, undodgeable, extremely easy to land, unlimited in targets, ranged, damaging, AND attached to your strongest mobility tool without having to give something up.

That's the actual issue I'm pointing out.

I'm not saying Streak shouldn't be strong. I'm saying it shouldn't get every single upside with none of the normal tradeoffs.

If the mobility remains exceptional, then the CC can have a target cap. If the CC remains unblockable and undodgeable, then there can be another limitation. If unlimited targets are considered essential for anti-zerg gameplay, then there should be some other meaningful drawback.

But "I need unlimited AoE CC because otherwise I can't 1v7" isn't really evidence that the current version is balanced. If anything, arguing that Streak needs all of these advantages so you can reliably 1v7 people is making my argument for me about how overtuned the ability is.

He's a 'sorc main', it isn't about being logical. He needs streak 'to crutch' on.

That's an absurd thing to say lol. Every class crutches on something. Your WW crutches on something too. By your logic, Templar shouldn't need Cleansing Ritual because it's too strong. NB shouldn't need Cloak, DK shouldn't need extra block mitigation and wings, etc.

CannedChicken wrote: »

aLi3nZ wrote: »

But regardless I still think it should be left. Sorc has big penalties for not slotting actual sorc skills on their bar and if you nerf more of their abilities into oblivion it causes more and more issues.

I'm not asking for Streak to be nerfed into oblivion or for Sorc to lose its mobility identity. I'm asking for the CC component to have some reasonable counterplay.

Pretty much every other CC has to give something up. Fear requires you to get into close range, while other AoE CCs are blockable or dodgeable. Streak bypasses all of those normal restrictions while being attached to the strongest mobility skill in the game.

Streak can remain an excellent mobility tool. I just don't think the CC should get to bypass every normal restriction placed on other CCs.

Sorc already lost its mobility when everyone has access to movement speed tools. Asking for Streak to be nerfed is a slap in the face lol. You want Streak nerfed? Remove easy access to mobility then. It's infuriating to see a Templar or DK sprint as fast as my Sorc when my class is supposed to be the fastest class in the game. What a joke