CannedChicken wrote: »

Streak is arguably the strongest CC in the game right now, and it's not particularly close.

The problem is that Streak combines an extremely strong mobility tool with an AoE, unblockable, undodgeable stun. It also has an enormous effective range and, unlike most AoE CCs, has no target cap.

ZOS has made several changes to single-target CCs specifically to give players more counterplay. Streak largely ignores that philosophy. If you're caught by it, you can't block it or dodge it. Your only real counterplay is to get stunned and break free. If someone wants to stun you with it, there isn't anything you can do about it.

This becomes especially problematic with ball groups. Sorcs can streak through a pugs and CC huge numbers of players simultaneously. The fact that Streak's CC has no target cap makes coordinated groups disproportionately effective with it.

I don't think Streak needs to lose its identity as a mobility ability. It just needs reasonable counterplay.

Some possible solutions:

Make the CC blockable but keep it undodgeable. It's direct AoE damage, so being blockable would be consistent with other abilities.

Add a target cap. Streak has had a target cap historically.

Tie the target cap to the cost increase. For example, the first Streak hits 1 target, the second hits 2, the third hits 3, etc.

Reduce the width of the CC or make the stun only affect players around the starting location rather than everyone along the entire path.

There are plenty of ways to fix the problem without gutting Sorcerer's mobility.

Right now, though, Streak is uniquely combining top-tier mobility with a massive AoE CC that cannot be blocked or dodged. Other CCs have been given counterplay. Streak should get the same treatment.

@BardokRedSnow

I hadn't considered how strong streak is tbh. Unblockable and undodgeable in a semi-large rectangle does make it unique. Generally other similar ccs like nb fear and fighter's guild fear require you to be in melee range. Streak not having a target cap is probably the most unreasonable thing about it.

My look at it is like this:

• Streak radius is not the problem, making it smaller will just turn it into a mini game.
• Making it blockable will break the entire kit, it sounds like a nerf but is a delete button for the class. With curse already blockable it will make the it 100% predictable and avoidable.
• It is not the strongest stun at all based on the fact that it is not delayed. You must spend a GCD on it. As long something like Fossilise exist there is little conversation here.
• Target cap makes sense. Zooming through a group just to interrupt everyone's flow is probably not the intended effect.

No, Streak does not need a CC nerf. Every year a Streak nerf thread surfaces and I have yet to see a proper reason.

Yudo wrote: »

My look at it is like this:

• Streak radius is not the problem, making it smaller will just turn it into a mini game.
• Making it blockable will break the entire kit, it sounds like a nerf but is a delete button for the class. With curse already blockable it will make the it 100% predictable and avoidable.
• It is not the strongest stun at all based on the fact that it is not delayed. You must spend a GCD on it. As long something like Fossilise exist there is little conversation here.
• Target cap makes sense. Zooming through a group just to interrupt everyone's flow is probably not the intended effect.

I think you're looking at this too much from a 1v1 perspective.

Fossilize really isn't that strong in practice because it has meaningful counterplay. It can be dodged, and the delay and telegraph give you time to recognize the commitment and react or prepare defensively. You can't block it, but you have a clear way to avoid it.

Streak is fundamentally different.

Streak happens instantly, covers a massive area, and goes through both block and dodge. In Cyrodiil, a Sorc can simply streak through a group and instantly CC everyone they catch.

That's important because Cyrodiil isn't a giant 1v1 arena. Small groups and ball groups use Streak specifically for its ability to provide instant mass CC.

And the GCD argument doesn't really address that. Streak isn't just spending a GCD to CC someone. That same GCD gives you mobility, AoE damage, and an AoE stun. Fossilize gives you the CC.

Coordinating burst around a delayed, telegraphed single-target CC is fundamentally different from coordinating burst around an instant AoE CC that can hit a large number of players simultaneously.

So I don't think "Fossilize exists" really settles the discussion. Fossilize's counterplay is exactly why it isn't comparable to Streak's mass-PvP application.

The issue with Streak is its instant, large-area CC with no target cap combined with its lack of block/dodge counterplay, while simultaneously providing damage and mobility.

It's stun area is too big. If it is going to cover an area, it should just be some circular area around the caster's initial position (like Fear). And then maybe just a straight line that has a width not bigger than a character model's width. So that you will have to actually aim for the stun. But now people just spam it in the general direction of other player, anywhere really, and it just stuns everything in a huge vicinity in the end and all the way between from the start.

Streak is not getting nerfed lol. No valid reason to nerf this ability at all.

CannedChicken wrote: »

Streak is arguably the strongest CC in the game right now, and it's not particularly close.

The problem is that Streak combines an extremely strong mobility tool with an AoE, unblockable, undodgeable stun. It also has an enormous effective range and, unlike most AoE CCs, has no target cap.

ZOS has made several changes to single-target CCs specifically to give players more counterplay. Streak largely ignores that philosophy. If you're caught by it, you can't block it or dodge it. Your only real counterplay is to get stunned and break free. If someone wants to stun you with it, there isn't anything you can do about it.

This becomes especially problematic with ball groups. Sorcs can streak through a pugs and CC huge numbers of players simultaneously. The fact that Streak's CC has no target cap makes coordinated groups disproportionately effective with it.

I don't think Streak needs to lose its identity as a mobility ability. It just needs reasonable counterplay.

Some possible solutions:

Make the CC blockable but keep it undodgeable. It's direct AoE damage, so being blockable would be consistent with other abilities.

Add a target cap. Streak has had a target cap historically.

Tie the target cap to the cost increase. For example, the first Streak hits 1 target, the second hits 2, the third hits 3, etc.

Reduce the width of the CC or make the stun only affect players around the starting location rather than everyone along the entire path.

There are plenty of ways to fix the problem without gutting Sorcerer's mobility.

Right now, though, Streak is uniquely combining top-tier mobility with a massive AoE CC that cannot be blocked or dodged. Other CCs have been given counterplay. Streak should get the same treatment.

@BardokRedSnow

I agree with the OP for the most part. I've honestly been surprised that Streak hasn't received a meaningful nerf years ago. I remember thinking abilities like Streak and Shadow Cloak were going to be addressed eventually because they are so uniquely overtuned in PvP. The developers eventually took action on Shadow Cloak, but it seems like Streak in particular has been largely ignored.

At the very least, some of the more extreme aspects of the ability should be toned down.

Don't all other AoE CCs abilities have some kind of target cap? Why does Streak get to ignore that while also being both unblockable and undodgeable?

And compare it to other unblockable/undodgeable AoE stuns. Those generally require you to put yourself point-blank in the middle of the fight and take a significant risk to get that CC off. Streak doesn't have that drawback. You can CC people while simultaneously using the ability's massive mobility to reposition or escape, while also dealing damage.

It just seems like Streak gets an unusually long list of benefits without having the usual drawbacks that come with that kind of AoE CC. The cost increase is supposed to be Streak's primary drawback, but with the level of sustain available in the current game, that drawback can largely be ignored in practice. And when Streak is being used specifically as a CC, the escalating cost is barely a drawback at all because you're typically only casting it once or twice.

I don't think the answer necessarily has to be gutting Streak. But surely the target cap or unblockable/undodgeable nature could be looked at. The ability has been doing this for a long time, and at some point it seems reasonable to ask why it gets to ignore so many of the limitations placed on other PvP abilities.

I don't know about a nerf however before the bombers and ball groups even became mainstream; it was the complete inability to deal with talented Sorcs that led me to begin my exodus from PvP. I do still PvE, I enjoy many PvE related things but some of these Sorcs, talented yes, but they're just unkillable and unstoppable. Tried playing Sorc one time and felt like my guy was wearing roller skates and strapped to a rocket so... yeah not my thing and thus neither is PvP because the Sorcs don't fall no matter what you do to them, plus adding in all the other stuff that is mainstream now.

You already know I agree with this, good write up. Its a good starting point if we're to be level with talk of balancing classes, I'd be much less adverse to them if this was a thing.

​I made a topic after the DKs and WW nerfs pointing out that we are starting to see a flood of Sorcs in the game, and it will get worse on patch 51.
​My next thought is that we will soon see a flood of 'Nerf Sorcs' topics.
​The Sorc players said I didn't have evidence and that I was just crying against Sorcs. But, be honest with yourselves, Sorc players—can you see this flood happening much earlier than I thought?

Once upon a time streak was blockable yet every sorc still had it slotted.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Streak is not getting nerfed lol. No valid reason to nerf this ability at all.

You're probably right that it isn't, for some reason the community has always been more accepting of sorc metas than any others, maybe because sorcs as a class arent able to hold a front line etc like melee classes so its not as in your face, but to soloers its crazy how much a sorc can get away with in open world pvp.

I think it absolutely should get a ramping cost if nothing else changes, that seems bare minimum to me with how good sorc sustain is. I doubt itd even affect the best sorcs out there much.

Honestly, no- I completely disagree.

I think that streak has always really been an overloaded tool it's just that the sustain has once again (rightfully) brought in under question.

The CC should absolutely be at least affected or stripped away if nothing else as this is an absolutely overloaded skill in its own right. Unlike even DK wings, this singular ability allows you the ability to play drastically differently by itself (that's why so very many "lower-skilled" sorcs can build low health, incredibly high mag and live as easily as they can- especially).

I wouldn't want to see the mobility removed from this skill as this is still a staple of the class.

Hence why either the CC should be affected or it keeps the CC but with an internal Cooldown similar to how Arcanist Portal performs.

either solutions fine by me tbh, internal cooldown is a good idea though since that adds counterplay regardless of your core sustain. I imagine they'd rather keep good sustain than streak spam.

CannedChicken wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Streak is not getting nerfed lol. No valid reason to nerf this ability at all.

You're probably right that it isn't, for some reason the community has always been more accepting of sorc metas than any others, maybe because sorcs as a class arent able to hold a front line etc like melee classes so its not as in your face, but to soloers its crazy how much a sorc can get away with in open world pvp.

I think it absolutely should get a ramping cost if nothing else changes, that seems bare minimum to me with how good sorc sustain is. I doubt itd even affect the best sorcs out there much.

Honestly, no- I completely disagree.

I think that streak has always really been an overloaded tool it's just that the sustain has once again (rightfully) brought in under question.

The CC should absolutely be at least affected or stripped away if nothing else as this is an absolutely overloaded skill in its own right. Unlike even DK wings, this singular ability allows you the ability to play drastically differently by itself (that's why so very many "lower-skilled" sorcs can build low health, incredibly high mag and live as easily as they can- especially).

I wouldn't want to see the mobility removed from this skill as this is still a staple of the class.

Hence why either the CC should be affected or it keeps the CC but with an internal Cooldown similar to how Arcanist Portal performs.

either solutions fine by me tbh, internal cooldown is a good idea though since that adds counterplay regardless of your core sustain. I imagine they'd rather keep good sustain than streak spam.

I think an internal cooldown is an odd solution. It would basically make Streak the only skill in the game with a cooldown outside of Vengeance, and I don't think that's necessary.

More importantly, a cooldown doesn't really address the primary problem with Streak: the CC itself sits above every other CC in the game in terms of overall utility, while also being attached to arguably the strongest mobility ability in the game.

I think Streak should remain a strong mobility tool. Adding a cooldown would be a pretty harsh nerf to its mobility, and I'd rather see the CC component adjusted so it has meaningful counterplay.

Make it blockable, give it a target cap, reduce its width, or otherwise limit the CC without gutting the mobility that makes Streak an important part of Sorcerer.

I suggested that as it already exists under the Arcanist line and it is indeed a way for them to keep their ‘all in one package’ as many stated they want.

As I mentioned, I think adjusting the CC is some significant capacity is really the way to go.

I wouldn’t just nerf Streak — I’d nerf mobility across the board. I honestly wish they’d just reduce the overall amount of mobility in the game, full stop. Cyrodiil has become a complete rat race, with everyone constantly running from fights, abusing line of sight and turning every encounter into an endless game of cat and mouse. PvP should be about actually fighting, not who can run away or kite the longest. The constant cowardly play style just makes a complete mockery of PvP and is the main reason I don't play Cyrodill and stick to BGs.

Lol it's funny how everyone is complaining about streak. Venegance gives you a preview of what the devs are planning for PvP. Like the change to Expert Hunter in U51 was already implemented in Vengeance for several months. Complain more and you'll get it balanced/nerfed in gear-enabled PvP. Not that I care. Even in Venegance streak can stop a group of people in their tracks. And it's going to get a target increase from 3 to 6 next patch.