Make Bolt Escape cost 20% of the magicka pool.

Glurin · May 2014

jobo11b16_ESO wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Bolt Escape can't be cast while stunned or rooted and does not make you immune to crowd control, although it DOES make THEM immune to it's stun for a time if you hit them with it and the stun can in fact be blocked.

You can stop pretending BE is some kind of godlike "I win" button ability any time now. You're quite clearly wrong and suffering from a l2p issue at this point.

Bolt Escape can be cast while immobilized, have you actually used it while rooted? I've seen Sorcerers Bolt Escaping with talons around their legs. You don't even know how your own class abilities work. Also I never said anything being able to use Bolt Escape while stunned or that it gave immunity to CC.

My bad. I was thinking more along the lines of disorient. It can be used while rooted, but you remain rooted.

Doesn't change the fact that you are still wrong.

Nooblet · May 2014

jobo11b16_ESO wrote: »

Nooblet wrote: »

The only non-finisher a light armor sorc has that is worth a damn in pvp is crystal fragments. And you can block or roll dodge out of the way.. Why are you dying to sorcs?

What else do they need? Crystal Fragments isn't some trash skill, its the best ranged DD out of all the classes.

Oh I'm not denying that it's good. Except its 100% avoidable, any decent player is going to laugh at someone wasting cast time to use it... While bad players will get blown up in a few casts.

Tintinabula · May 2014

btw this 5 skill talk is bullcrap..you have ten skills and anyone who doesn't use all ten slots is lying.

Glurin · May 2014

Nooblet wrote: »

jobo11b16_ESO wrote: »

Nooblet wrote: »

The only non-finisher a light armor sorc has that is worth a damn in pvp is crystal fragments. And you can block or roll dodge out of the way.. Why are you dying to sorcs?

What else do they need? Crystal Fragments isn't some trash skill, its the best ranged DD out of all the classes.

Oh I'm not denying that it's good. Except its 100% avoidable, any decent player is going to laugh at someone wasting cast time to use it... While bad players will get blown up in a few casts.

I sometimes like to toss it at people from a keep wall. Usually they just run off after being knocked off their feet, but sometimes I get lucky and kill someone with it. Open field, not unless they are busy with somebody else. One on one, you can pretty much forget it.

ErilAq · May 2014

The 5 slot talk is taking into account the amount of abilities needed to make bolt escape the main defensive ability, you have bolt escape, bound armor, lightning form, and dark exchange, the 5th slot is open. But regardless, you're sacrificing a ton of dps to run. This is on top of the fact every class has an offensive ability that does more dps and has a longer range than bolt escape. Hate to say it, but it's 100% a l2p issue

Niffo · May 2014

Glurin wrote: »

My bad. I was thinking more along the lines of disorient. It can be used while rooted, but you remain rooted.

Doesn't change the fact that you are still wrong.

What am I wrong about? That you can use Bolt Escape while rooted? Which is what you just said you were wrong about. Nothing in my post was incorrect.

Glurin · May 2014

jobo11b16_ESO wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

My bad. I was thinking more along the lines of disorient. It can be used while rooted, but you remain rooted.

Doesn't change the fact that you are still wrong.

What am I wrong about? That you can use Bolt Escape while rooted? Which is what you just said you were wrong about. Nothing in my post was incorrect.

I won't waste any more time rehashing the same argument with you. Suffice to say you think BE is overpowered and nobody else has the ability to run away, and you are provably wrong.

Niffo · May 2014

Glurin wrote: »

I won't waste any more time rehashing the same argument with you. Suffice to say you think BE is overpowered and nobody else has the ability to run away, and you are provably wrong.

Good, maybe you can actually make real argument instead.

Raggok · May 2014

] Why should anyone be 100% forced to stay and fight whether they want to or not?

So, you are for giving every class an ability as good as escaping as BE then? Oh wait, let me fix it for you. This is probably what you meant to say.

"Why should I be 100% forced to stay and fight whether I want to or not?"

Nijjion · May 2014

ErilAq wrote: »

Since there is a lot of misinformation in this thread, I'm going to list the range of each classes "movement" abilities:
DK: Fiery grip-15m (can be morphed to 22m)
NB: Teleporting stike-22m (can be morphed to stun, make target take 30% more damage on next attack
Templar: focused charge-22m (can be morphed to make casting enemies off balanced)
Sorcerer: Bolt escape- 15m (can be morphed to stun opponent and do minor damage)

So every class has a counter to bolt escape.... that can also be spammed, and can all have a greater range than bolt escape. /thread.

And the 5 (soon to be 7) second immunity timer, counters all of what you said so what is your point?... Also BE has a stun on it... once you are out of it even breaking it and using up half of your stam they have already bolted twice meaning actually 30-35m distance ahead of you...meaning all of the skills now are out of range.

Nice try

Try again please.

ForTheRealm · May 2014

Nijjion wrote: »

ErilAq wrote: »

Since there is a lot of misinformation in this thread, I'm going to list the range of each classes "movement" abilities:
DK: Fiery grip-15m (can be morphed to 22m)
NB: Teleporting stike-22m (can be morphed to stun, make target take 30% more damage on next attack
Templar: focused charge-22m (can be morphed to make casting enemies off balanced)
Sorcerer: Bolt escape- 15m (can be morphed to stun opponent and do minor damage)

So every class has a counter to bolt escape.... that can also be spammed, and can all have a greater range than bolt escape. /thread.

And the 5 (soon to be 7) second immunity timer, counters all of what you said so what is your point?... Also BE has a stun on it... once you are out of it even breaking it and using up half of your stam they have already bolted twice meaning actually 30-35m distance ahead of you...meaning all of the skills now are out of range.

Nice try Try again please.

You forget about an important factor: only BE is point-blank - you don't have to point it to enemy to use it.
All the others you mention, they need a target in the range. Thus:
1) they cannot be used to counter BE - after 2 zips you are just out of range of those abilities
2) they cannot be used to escape like BE (unless you want other classes to escape toward enemies;-)

Nice try though;-)

ForTheRealm · May 2014

And if there is still somebody who wonders how effective is BE in the PVP end-game, read this:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/comment/837860

popatiberiuoneb18_ESO · May 2014

Mykah wrote: »

For the other three classes I think there is a good balance between stamina and mana. The problem with bolt escape is that a sorc has a full stamina bar for breaking cc and dodging, and an entire mana bar for bolt escape which is its own kind of avoidance against melee attacks its first cast, a full avoidance from range attacks on its third cast.

Also note, a NB Templar or DK can dodge roll three times to avoid damage and their done, where as a sorc can dodge roll three times AND bolt escape upwards of ten times on the high end characters. The amount of damage avoidance provided by this is just uncomparible to other classes.

The best solution to this imbalance is to make bolt escape cost a flat 20% of mana to cast, bringing its damage avoidance to resource pool effectiveness in line with the other three classes.

Even with this nerf a sorc could bolt five times, eight times using set bonuses and a single mana pot while still having 50% stamina left after breaking a CC.

This change would also mean a tanky sorc using heavy armor would have the same escape utility as a full mana sorc, the irony being currently a mana canon sorc as more survivability than a tank sorc simply due to bolt escape spam.

Its base cost is already more then 20% magika pool, not home now to give you exact numbers but i know on a toon with ~1860 magika it costs around. If any vr10 sorc can remove all cost reduction/light armour and give the exact numbers that would be great.

For a non-specced person you can do 3-4 bolt escapes before your run out of magika, did i get this correctly: you are proposing to raise that to 5?

All in all, i dont think bolt escape needs a boost, its preaty strong as it is. The 5 sec no magika regen debuff could be replaced by something else that affects the people spamming it rather then the people using it to fight.

Mendoze · May 2014

Raggok wrote: »

] Why should anyone be 100% forced to stay and fight whether they want to or not?

So, you are for giving every class an ability as good as escaping as BE then? Oh wait, let me fix it for you. This is probably what you meant to say.

"Why should I be 100% forced to stay and fight whether I want to or not?"

Are you for giving sorcerers the stealth ability of NBs, healing ability of templars or maybe survivability of DKs? If some other class can do something yours can't, what is so wrong about it? There's different classes for reason. It's not like he kills your raid and then humps your corpses with bolt escape...he just escapes. Oh, let me fix what you probably meant to say.

"Why I can't kill sorcerers 100% of the time...sniff"

Nijjion · May 2014

@popatiberiuoneb18_ESO

Well there is no way to make it cheaper cost with stamina skills right? So instead of them being able to cast it 10-14 times geared with magicka now they can only cost it like 5-6 times with stamina and sharing a cost with CC breaks making it only castable 2-3 times.

Edit - Also makes them think do I want to waste my stamina with dark exchange to get magicka or save my stamina for bolt escape.

popatiberiuoneb18_ESO · May 2014

Nijjion wrote: »

@popatiberiuoneb18_ESO

Well there is no way to make it cheaper cost with stamina skills right? So instead of them being able to cast it 10-14 times geared with magicka now they can only cost it like 5-6 times with stamina and sharing a cost with CC breaks making it only castable 2-3 times.

Edit - Also makes them think do I want to waste my stamina with dark exchange to get magicka or save my stamina for bolt escape.

Sure, it would gimp a magika build but it will buff a stamina build

Smart sorcs will adapt, you are proposing a fix that will "ruin" it for certain builds and offer the same advantage to some other builds. Fix a "problem" and create a new one.

It will also give a magika build an even higher advantages in certain group scenarios: Think about this: i stay on the side of the road. I notice you running abouts. I bolt my uber tushie of awsomness to you and now i have full magika pool (since BE costs stamina) instead of low magika pool AND no 0 magika regen for 5 seconds, all that to finish you off and get away riding my BE of awsomness. Already people complaining about sorcs bolting in, killing someone and getting away, how would allowing sorcs to combine even more destructive power with mobility help?

Sorry, I can see how you think this might solve the issue but you're missing the bigger picture.

Nijjion · May 2014

popatiberiuoneb18_ESO wrote: »

snip

Maybe you're right it would buff their magic output a bit but it's still 1 possibility.

I like the League of legends kassadin ultimate mechanic as well (where it doubles it cost each time cast and resets after 10 seconds when skill hasn't been used).

I don't like the cost being high for them straight away with a flat 20/25% cost... it should be cheap(ish) to use once or twice but after that there should be some draw back.

With stamina cost they might only get 2 casts off because they might have to use 50% of it to break out of a stun.

Mykah · May 2014

ErilAq wrote: »

see, the only issue I have, is when a sorc is v10 and uses bolt escape more than 5 times, he's geared for bolt escape and has severely gimped his dps in exchange. You want to stack crit, and crit damage done so your critical charge can proc, but you can't if you're slotting magicka regen and magicka base. You basically get to choose between defensive sorc, or offensive sorc. (this is not including the sorcs that abuse BE with the bugs or exploits.)

I'm a bit confused. Slotting magicka regen and magicka base is a magick attribute armor and accessories stat, slotting magic crit and magic crit damage is a weapon, set bonus, and spec stat.

How exactly are they prevented from having the best of both worlds?

Also what BE bug or exploit are you refering to?

This post doesn't make much sense.

Niffo · May 2014

Mendoze wrote: »

Are you for giving sorcerers the stealth ability of NBs, healing ability of templars or maybe survivability of DKs? If some other class can do something yours can't, what is so wrong about it? There's different classes for reason. It's not like he kills your raid and then humps your corpses with bolt escape...he just escapes. Oh, let me fix what you probably meant to say.

"Why I can't kill sorcerers 100% of the time...sniff"

You can get invis from potions, Restoration staff lets anyone heal, and no one is allowed to be on the same level of Dragonknights, how dare you suggest otherwise. Everyone can do the same things just in different ways, only a Sorcerer can use a gap closer/creator without a target requirement.

The problem is not that you can't kill a Sorcerer 100% of the time, the problem is that only a Sorcerer can escape any time they want to, while everyone else has to die.

Mykah · May 2014

popatiberiuoneb18_ESO wrote: »

Mykah wrote: »

For the other three classes I think there is a good balance between stamina and mana. The problem with bolt escape is that a sorc has a full stamina bar for breaking cc and dodging, and an entire mana bar for bolt escape which is its own kind of avoidance against melee attacks its first cast, a full avoidance from range attacks on its third cast.

Also note, a NB Templar or DK can dodge roll three times to avoid damage and their done, where as a sorc can dodge roll three times AND bolt escape upwards of ten times on the high end characters. The amount of damage avoidance provided by this is just uncomparible to other classes.

The best solution to this imbalance is to make bolt escape cost a flat 20% of mana to cast, bringing its damage avoidance to resource pool effectiveness in line with the other three classes.

Even with this nerf a sorc could bolt five times, eight times using set bonuses and a single mana pot while still having 50% stamina left after breaking a CC.

This change would also mean a tanky sorc using heavy armor would have the same escape utility as a full mana sorc, the irony being currently a mana canon sorc as more survivability than a tank sorc simply due to bolt escape spam.

Its base cost is already more then 20% magika pool, not home now to give you exact numbers but i know on a toon with ~1860 magika it costs around. If any vr10 sorc can remove all cost reduction/light armour and give the exact numbers that would be great.

For a non-specced person you can do 3-4 bolt escapes before your run out of magika, did i get this correctly: you are proposing to raise that to 5?

All in all, i dont think bolt escape needs a boost, its preaty strong as it is. The 5 sec no magika regen debuff could be replaced by something else that affects the people spamming it rather then the people using it to fight.

"For a non-specced into mana sorc" did I just read that right?

If were talking imaginary stamina spec sorcs getting 5 BEs instead of 4 for 100% mana cost while vr10 actual sorcs get 5 BEs instead of 10 for 100% mana I would gladly give your theory craft stamina sorc that buff.

popatiberiuoneb18_ESO · May 2014

Nijjion wrote: »

popatiberiuoneb18_ESO wrote: »

snip

Maybe you're right it would buff their magic output a bit but it's still 1 possibility.

I like the League of legends kassadin ultimate mechanic as well (where it doubles it cost each time cast and resets after 10 seconds when skill hasn't been used).

I don't like the cost being high for them straight away with a flat 20/25% cost... it should be cheap(ish) to use once or twice but after that there should be some draw back.

With stamina cost they might only get 2 casts off because they might have to use 50% of it to break out of a stun.

Indeed but if they would consider that option it will eventualy get implemented for more and more skills depending on the flavour of the day and that is not necesarily a bad thing...but everything else including light/heavy atacks will have to obey the same principles or get toned down. What would you think about <insert your main atack skill here> if every time your use it on an oponent it costs more and more? That would not be a problem if you had access to enough skill slots..ofcourse..but in 99.99% of the builds out there you can only slot 1-2 different skills for the same purpose withouth gimping yourself (5+1 at best

).

I suggested a better alternative, make the user want to use it for offensive purposes (give them incentives for doing so) and make them think twice for using it to get away (add penalties for using it in a spam x times in a direction with the sole purpose of getting away). This is something many fail to realize: if you keep nerfing everything instead of finding a balance and shaping it towards its purpose we will end up with a bunch of useless skills and loose alot of diversity in the process (not that there is much to begin with). If you dont belive me ask any vampire about their toughts on the mist form nerf.

Fixed cost amount would also imply that the whole spell reduction mechanism needs to be retought and/or removed from the game entirely. Wouldnt say no to that, its the root of many complains about various skills but i dont trust ZoS could pull it off..they might overthink it and come up with some game breaking solution like they did with the aoe cap.

Mykah · May 2014

I'm just tired of chasing a Sorc off, him running to his keep, so I leave (that's fine btw) then a minute later he zip zip zips to me again, trys to jump me, pretend to chase him, he zip zips, regens, zips back, trys to jump me again.

Its f***ing inane. If a sorc wants to escape thats fine, really... I mean it, its fine. What's not fine is ANY class being able to endlessly kite and re-engage 1v1 until they win or get backup. There is no counter for it if they're vr10 and smart, none. They are faster than the fastest horses, get real guys.

Its just beyond absurd the non-sense people will defend when it benefits their class but absolutly injures the life of the game.

popatiberiuoneb18_ESO · May 2014

Mykah wrote: »

I'm just tired of chasing a Sorc off, him running to his keep, so I leave (that's fine btw) then a minute later he zip zip zips to me again, trys to jump me, pretend to chase him, he zip zips, regens, zips back, trys to jump me again.

Its f***ing inane. If a sorc wants to escape thats fine, really... I mean it, its fine. What's not fine is ANY class being able to endlessly kite and re-engage 1v1 until they win or get backup. There is no counter for it if they're vr10 and smart, none. They are faster than the fastest horses, get real guys.

Its just beyond absurd the non-sense people will defend when it benefits their class but absolutly injures the life of the game.

Even if what you say is true and there is NO COUNTER whatsoever...and i told you that vr10 sorc meets another vr10 sorc?

I am a sorc player and i have no problem killing other sorcs IF i have as much magika as them, i will kill them more than not, if they decide to flee, now if they fight back its a different story, it comes down to build, a small portion of player skill and alot of luck/bad luck with latency.

Not sure what you mean by any class being able to endlessly kite and re-engage 1 vs 1...with the right build any class can do that, yes. Sorc has the upper hand in that ofc, and is also the squishiest of them all.

In all fairness i do agree with you, all im seing in RvR now that the vamps got nerfed are shield bashing people (splitting between all classes but templar/DK predominant), banner/talon spamming DKs, bolting sorcs (number increasing on a daily basis, soon there will be no spot in cyrodiil withouth a blue ball) and when solo roaming there's a nb with a bow in every f'in bush...The game promised diversity and all we're getting is a handfull of BIS skills and 3-4 builds to play around with. Nothing would please me more than to face a different challenge on each enemy i meet not just fight the same cloned build over and over and over...

EDIT: nothing in this game is fastest than the fastest horse. Im running on a 60%+ horse, around level 37 now i belive, when fully upgraded it will get 70%+. I leave a bolting sorc in a dust trail if i sprint. add a rapid manuver to that (+30% speed) and he wont even know what just passed him. Against an enemy on horse your best bet is to sneak rather then bolt away...and if we're talking about chasing dont bother, you wont have enough magika to fight that person if u ever catch up.

Ohh...also riding a horse doesnt cost you any resources

i cant possibly see what would your complaint be regarding the mounts.

Niffo · May 2014

popatiberiuoneb18_ESO wrote: »

Even if what you say is true and there is NO COUNTER whatsoever...and i told you that vr10 sorc meets another vr10 sorc?

I am a sorc player and i have no problem killing other sorcs IF i have as much magika as them, i will kill them more than not, if they decide to flee, now if they fight back its a different story, it comes down to build, a small portion of player skill and alot of luck/bad luck with latency.

Not sure what you mean by any class being able to endlessly kite and re-engage 1 vs 1...with the right build any class can do that, yes. Sorc has the upper hand in that ofc, and is also the squishiest of them all.

In all fairness i do agree with you, all im seing in RvR now that the vamps got nerfed are shield bashing people (splitting between all classes but templar/DK predominant), banner/talon spamming DKs, bolting sorcs (number increasing on a daily basis, soon there will be no spot in cyrodiil withouth a blue ball) and when solo roaming there's a nb with a bow in every f'in bush...The game promised diversity and all we're getting is a handfull of BIS skills and 3-4 builds to play around with. Nothing would please me more than to face a different challenge on each enemy i meet not just fight the same cloned build over and over and over...

EDIT: nothing in this game is fastest than the fastest horse. Im running on a 60%+ horse, around level 37 now i belive, when fully upgraded it will get 70%+. I leave a bolting sorc in a dust trail if i sprint. add a rapid manuver to that (+30% speed) and he wont even know what just passed him. Against an enemy on horse your best bet is to sneak rather then bolt away...and if we're talking about chasing dont bother, you wont have enough magika to fight that person if u ever catch up.

Ohh...also riding a horse doesnt cost you any resources i cant possibly see what would your complaint be regarding the mounts.

Please explain how you're able to mount while in combat.

Mykah · May 2014

For those interested you can view my other suggestions to balance PvP here:

Mechanic Changes Necessary for Skill Based PvP. (Root and Block)
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/98661/mechanic-changes-necessary-for-skill-based-pvp-root-and-block/p1

Make DKs Talons a one time a one time AE so it can be Blocked.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/98642/make-dks-talons-a-one-time-ae-so-it-can-be-blocked/p1

Mykah · May 2014

Thank you for your time in considering these suggestions.
@ZOS_BrianWheeler
@ZOS_AbigailT‌
@ZOS_AidanF‌
@ZOS_AJ‌
@ZOS_AjanJ‌
@ZOS_MattFiror‌
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom