Make Bolt Escape cost 20% of the magicka pool.

Mykah

For the other three classes I think there is a good balance between stamina and mana. The problem with bolt escape is that a sorc has a full stamina bar for breaking cc and dodging, and an entire mana bar for bolt escape which is its own kind of avoidance against melee attacks its first cast, a full avoidance from range attacks on its third cast.

Also note, a NB Templar or DK can dodge roll three times to avoid damage and their done, where as a sorc can dodge roll three times AND bolt escape upwards of ten times on the high end characters. The amount of damage avoidance provided by this is just uncomparible to other classes.

The best solution to this imbalance is to make bolt escape cost a flat 20% of mana to cast, bringing its damage avoidance to resource pool effectiveness in line with the other three classes.

Even with this nerf a sorc could bolt five times, eight times using set bonuses and a single mana pot while still having 50% stamina left after breaking a CC.

This change would also mean a tanky sorc using heavy armor would have the same escape utility as a full mana sorc, the irony being currently a mana canon sorc as more survivability than a tank sorc simply due to bolt escape spam.

Edit: Added from page 3.

Most low and mid power sorcs already spend 20% of their mana for bolt escape, in this case BE is not overpowered but is working as intended. It only becomes overpowered when a sorc is vr10 geared and cast BE over 10 times before even being low on mana. This allows them to use BE not only as an escape tool, but as an escape re-engage kite and CC tool that can be spammed.

Changing BE to a 20% mana cost would put vr10 sorcs in line while still maintaining its effectivness for non max level sorcs who are already spending around 20% mana to cast it.

Again I'd like to emphasis, I have no issue with a sorc using BE to escape being killed. The issue is with vr10 sorcs being able to re-engage and chase using BE with very little mana cost. A 20% mana cost would negate this for high end sorcs while still being excellent utility for all level of sorcs to escape a death.

Asava

That's fine as long as the range gets changed from 15m to 50m to make it actually work.

Mykah

I would gladly give it a 20 meter range at 20% mana, with a 5 cast max, 8 using pots and set bonuses that's 100 meters, compared to 10 cast plus another 5 casts using pots at set bonuses for 225 meters and 10 potential additional stuns.

Its pretty insane when you look at the current reality spelled out in numbers.

Also note that after using 5 escapes the sorc still has 100% stamina which could be used on a variety of weapon or alliance skills to further avoid damage. You wont see this in the current meta because BE is so grossly overpowered no other defensive utility is required to make a mana canon sorc build uncatchable for every class but other sorcs.

prana33b14_ESO

So basically you want the sorc to either run immediately or not have enough magicka to ever be able to run if he decides he needs to ESCAPE? While this might be fine and dandy (not really) for a sorc with full magicka, sorcs dpsing on the back lines and already using their magicka will never get away from gankers unless a group kills the ganker right away. It's an escape mechanism ffs.

Adernath

Instead of crying for a nerf of abilities post a damn video about the partcular situation you have problems with and ask for strategies. I am 100% sure someone can help you.

Mykah

If its an escape mechnism alone and nothing more please explain how a templar or dk is supposed to escape from a sorc with the current BE mechanics?

prana33b14_ESO

Explain, or actually show us where TESO said every class is going to have the same exact skills. Kind of defeats the purpose of classes. Thieves in GW2 had a bow skill they could port away from people with and literally spam to fast travel across the map. Mezmers had a portal. I didn't have anything like that as an engineer or necro. OH NOEZ!

Glurin

I just have to laugh at people rerolling as a sorcerer just because they see people complaining that sorcerers are "unkillable" because they can run away. All of them are in for a rude awakening.

You want to see unkillable? Look at the videos of pre-nerf vampires just absorbing the attacks of entire raid groups as they slaughter any who get too close. Sorcerers running away from you does not qualify as being "unkillable". That just makes them slippery.

ChairGraveyard

They should just change Bolt Escape like this:

*Bolt Escape - 1200 Magicka - "Immediately lose 3000 magicka, stamina, and health. Then teleport forward 2 meters."*

Mykah

Mykah wrote: »

If its an escape mechnism alone and nothing more please explain how a templar or dk is supposed to escape from a sorc with the current BE mechanics?

No reasonable response to this is not surprising.

Putting 20% mana cost on BE would actually make it an escape tool. In its current form its an escape catch and CC tool that can be spammed without a second thought. Wheres the skill? Wheres the strategy? Its grossly OP and the sorcs half baked responses here are to be expected.

Imagine a NB that could Teleport strike with no target required 10 times before being low on mana, and you as a sorc only have a target required gap closer you can cast five times before being oom. Not only this, but your only other escape utility is easily countered by a single ability available to every class that also increases their weapon crit by 20%. Honestly step back and consider that gameplay from the other classes reality. That is sorc right now.

BrassRazoo

Great, another "lets nerf a skill because of PvP'.
I can't wait to have all my Toons modified for PvP when they don't even step foot in Cyrodill.

Harakh

So why do you need Bolt Escape Spam in PvE?

And why are you read the PvP Forum if you never want to go in PvP?

@‌ Topic

Way to hard nerf i say, they only need to fix that bolt escape breaking root, teleport strike from the NB is not able to teleport in root so should bolt escape be. Easy fix in my book.

Nox_Aeterna

Yeah , BE is freaking broken like hell.

I wonder how long till the devs finally apply the patch on this , we know they are looking into this , but that might still take a while.

After that DKs ... honestly , the way these classes can do stuff like this always make me wonder who the hell is testing this game.

I can understand vampire/ww , they were added shortly before the launch , nobody had a chance to see , the classes were not like that.

ForTheRealm

Glurin wrote: »

I just have to laugh at people rerolling as a sorcerer just because they see people complaining that sorcerers are "unkillable" because they can run away. All of them are in for a rude awakening.

You want to see unkillable? Look at the videos of pre-nerf vampires just absorbing the attacks of entire raid groups as they slaughter any who get too close. Sorcerers running away from you does not qualify as being "unkillable". That just makes them slippery.

LOL, You forgot to mention that most of those OP Vampires were also Sorcerers, as they were most effective in stacking Ultimate reductions: Sorcerer Power Stone (-15% ultimate cost), Akaviri Set (-20%) and Vamp cost reduction (dependent on stage).... Even DKs couldn't get such reductions...

Tintinabula

I think three BEs at their current distance is quite practical..It would force the Sorc population into becoming a PvP class rather than the "run away run away" class :P

ForTheRealm

I remember how much time and players disputes took to balance Blink in WoW (a Mage teleport spell similar to Escape Bolt), which initially was instant and easily spam-able.
At the end, devs made the spell instant and costing 2% of mana pool, but it also gott 15 sec cooldown. I think this is a better option for Bolt Escape than using 33% of Magicka:
1. it is instant and gives capability to escape
3. cannot be overused
4. after escape leaves Sorcerer almost full pool of Magicka, to actually show the "fighting skills"

Nox_Aeterna

piotreb17_ESO4 wrote: »

I remember how much time and players disputes took to balance Blink in WoW (a Mage teleport spell similar to Escape Bolt), which initially was instant and easily spam-able.
At the end, devs made the spell instant and costing 2% of mana pool, but it also gott 15 sec cooldown. I think this is a better option for Bolt Escape than using 33% of Magicka:
1. it is instant and gives capability to escape
3. cannot be overused
4. after escape leaves Sorcerer almost full pool of Magicka, to actually show the "fighting skills"

Problem is , ESO does not use cds.

Then again , if they do add a cd to shield bash , then this will be acceptable.

Adernath

Harakh wrote: »

So why do you need Bolt Escape Spam in PvE?

It is a very effective way to kite mobs which can not be CCed.

This entire disussion is pointless. There is nothing OP when someone runs away from you. All what people want is to get their kill and come to the forum to nerf this escape mechanic. They like to sit in a big group and get angry when the single sorc decided to run instead of getting ganked.

ForTheRealm

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

piotreb17_ESO4 wrote: »

I remember how much time and players disputes took to balance Blink in WoW (a Mage teleport spell similar to Escape Bolt), which initially was instant and easily spam-able.
At the end, devs made the spell instant and costing 2% of mana pool, but it also gott 15 sec cooldown. I think this is a better option for Bolt Escape than using 33% of Magicka:
1. it is instant and gives capability to escape
3. cannot be overused
4. after escape leaves Sorcerer almost full pool of Magicka, to actually show the "fighting skills"

Problem is , ESO does not use cds.

Then again , if they do add a cd to shield bash , then this will be acceptable.

Actually there is a form of CDs used indirectly, eg. on some skills and armor sets, like "This ability can occur once every (4) seconds." on "Ice Furnace Set".
Of course I don't know if this could be applied somehow to the spells.

Gloran

OP needs 33% 20% Magicka cost on any of his abilities and get real.

Aballister

personally I'd change it to have a limited number of casts, say start at 3, each use drops the counter and you get 1 back every min.

Aimelin

Mykah wrote: »

If its an escape mechnism alone and nothing more please explain how a templar or dk is supposed to escape from a sorc with the current BE mechanics?

a well played DK doesnt need to escape, he just doesn't die with green dragon blood spam, and even that redic ult they get, magma armor, tank raids for days.

same with templars who actually use some healing skills..., plus they get a charge / gap closer and then spam that spear thing

Mykah wrote: »

Mykah wrote: »

If its an escape mechnism alone and nothing more please explain how a templar or dk is supposed to escape from a sorc with the current BE mechanics?

No reasonable response to this is not surprising.

Putting 33% mana cost on BE would actually make it an escape tool. In its current form its an escape catch and CC tool that can be spammed without a second thought. Wheres the skill? Wheres the strategy? Its grossly OP and the sorcs half baked responses here are to be expected.

Imagine a NB that could Teleport strike with no target required 10 times before being low on mana, and you as a sorc only have a target required gap closer you can cast five times before being oom. Not only this, but your only other escape utility is easily countered by a single ability available to every class that also increases their weapon crit by 20%. Honestly step back and consider that gameplay from the other classes reality. That is sorc right now.

Sure we can "spam" it for 5-7 times depending on how big our pool is, and how much we have left after casting some spells. But when we cast it our magicka regen takes a huge hit, the more we cast it, even dropping our regen to 0 after 3 casts.

ian.freybourgerb16_ESO wrote: »

personally I'd change it to have a limited number of casts, say start at 3, each use drops the counter and you get 1 back every min.

that's the same as adding a cooldown tho .... won't happen.

What i did hear is they're putting a timer on the regen decrease, idk if anyone can confirm this?

prana33b14_ESO

Mykah wrote: »

Mykah wrote: »

If its an escape mechnism alone and nothing more please explain how a templar or dk is supposed to escape from a sorc with the current BE mechanics?

No reasonable response to this is not surprising.

My response was perfectly reasonable.

Once again, why do you think every class needs the same exact skills? Where did the devs state every class will have the exact same skill sets?

I can recall the past games where certain classes had escapes and other classes did not. I definitely did not hear this much crying about thieves and mesmers in GW2. Are all of you Elder Scrolls PVE junkies or something? It's like this is your first pvp game.

Ghenra

Agree with the OP and also make Bash cost 25% of stamina pool.

NordJitsu

This would be acceptable if Bolt Escape also gave me the ability to teleport through keep walls and had a 100m range.

Mykah

NordJitsu wrote: »

This would be acceptable if Bolt Escape also gave me the ability to teleport through keep walls and had a 100m range.

Tell us more about refreshing path being an effective counter against bolt escape, captain sorc propaganda.

Mykah

jparrillab16_ESO wrote: »

Agree with the OP and also make Bash cost 25% of stamina pool.

Bash is already being adjusted next patch to be less spamable and do less damage, along with a talon and standard AE cap, so hold off on that idea.

Mykah

Aimelin wrote: »

Mykah wrote: »

If its an escape mechnism alone and nothing more please explain how a templar or dk is supposed to escape from a sorc with the current BE mechanics?

a well played DK doesnt need to escape, he just doesn't die with green dragon blood spam, and even that redic ult they get, magma armor, tank raids for days.

same with templars who actually use some healing skills..., plus they get a charge / gap closer and then spam that spear thing

Mykah wrote: »

Mykah wrote: »

If its an escape mechnism alone and nothing more please explain how a templar or dk is supposed to escape from a sorc with the current BE mechanics?

No reasonable response to this is not surprising.

Putting 33% mana cost on BE would actually make it an escape tool. In its current form its an escape catch and CC tool that can be spammed without a second thought. Wheres the skill? Wheres the strategy? Its grossly OP and the sorcs half baked responses here are to be expected.

Imagine a NB that could Teleport strike with no target required 10 times before being low on mana, and you as a sorc only have a target required gap closer you can cast five times before being oom. Not only this, but your only other escape utility is easily countered by a single ability available to every class that also increases their weapon crit by 20%. Honestly step back and consider that gameplay from the other classes reality. That is sorc right now.

Sure we can "spam" it for 5-7 times depending on how big our pool is, and how much we have left after casting some spells. But when we cast it our magicka regen takes a huge hit, the more we cast it, even dropping our regen to 0 after 3 casts.

ian.freybourgerb16_ESO wrote: »

personally I'd change it to have a limited number of casts, say start at 3, each use drops the counter and you get 1 back every min.

that's the same as adding a cooldown tho .... won't happen.

What i did hear is they're putting a timer on the regen decrease, idk if anyone can confirm this?

5 casts is the low end for a <49 sorc, a geared vr10 can cast BE 10 times, another 5 times with set bonus and mana pot while still having full stamina *cough*retreating manuevers*cough*.

Also note DKs and Templars built to self heal and tank are not supposed to escape, and thats a spec choice. Currently BE is much more than an escape tool which was my point. At 1/5th mana cost a sorc could still engage a fight, use 4/5ths their mana, and escape using set bonus and a mana pot for three consecutive bolt escapes. What they couldnt do is chase down every other class on a whim, still have 80% mana, then escape again with 15% mana left, which is much more powerfull than simply having escape utility.

I think making BE cost 20% would allow removing the mana regen reduction.

Beldorr

ZOS could just put in code that any spamed ability increases with cost for each rapid consecutive use.

eg.
First bash- 15 stam, 2nd- 20 stam, 3rd- 30 stam, 4th- 50 stam etc.

It could be done with any ability with spam potental. Bolt, bash, vamp ultimate etc. Just have an internal cool down for a few seconds to start droping the cost, we dont have too many abilties to begin with.

Mykah

Beldorrub17_ESO wrote: »

ZOS could just put in code that any spamed ability increases with cost for each rapid consecutive use.

eg.
First bash- 15 stam, 2nd- 20 stam, 3rd- 30 stam, 4th- 50 stam etc.

It could be done with any ability with spam potental. Bolt, bash, vamp ultimate etc. Just have an internal cool down for a few seconds to start droping the cost, we dont have too many abilties to begin with.

You'd run into major issues with heals cleansing and direct damage abilities.

Most stamina/mana ratios are already balanced with the exception of BE Bash and Talon spam, and Bash and Talons is getting adjusted next patch.

Glurin

piotreb17_ESO4 wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

I just have to laugh at people rerolling as a sorcerer just because they see people complaining that sorcerers are "unkillable" because they can run away. All of them are in for a rude awakening.

You want to see unkillable? Look at the videos of pre-nerf vampires just absorbing the attacks of entire raid groups as they slaughter any who get too close. Sorcerers running away from you does not qualify as being "unkillable". That just makes them slippery.

LOL, You forgot to mention that most of those OP Vampires were also Sorcerers, as they were most effective in stacking Ultimate reductions: Sorcerer Power Stone (-15% ultimate cost), Akaviri Set (-20%) and Vamp cost reduction (dependent on stage).... Even DKs couldn't get such reductions...

Actually the sorcerer part was largely irrelevant to the problem there, but that's another matter. The reason I'm quoting you here is this:

"Even DKs couldn't get such reductions..."

It illustrates just how ill informed people in these nerf threads usually are. DKs get zero ultimate reduction. That's right, none. What they get is a passive that gives one or two extra ultimate points when they use skills from one particular skill line. Hardly anything to brag about. It's no different from the transfer passive that Nightblades have other than having a lower skill tree level requirement.

Now how does this apply to the wailing for a BE nerf? People are acting like Bolt Escape breaks any and all crowd control before sending the sorcerer from one end of Cyrodiil to the other and that doing so somehow lays waste to the sorcerer's opponents.

Here's the reality. If you burn your entire magicka pool on BE, you get five, six, maybe seven casts. Just enough to get you safely out of the battle, if everything goes well, but leaving you naked and exhausted at the end of the trip. You can get more, up to around ten I think, but only if you leave yourself so frail that you'd fall over dead if the orc standing next to you broke wind.

Bolt Escape does not break stuns, disorients, roots or snares. Yes you can use it while snared, but you're still snared at the other end of it. The rest you have to use dodge rolls and such.

A sorcerer running away from you does not kill you or harm you in any way. That should go without saying, but for some reason people act like a sorcerer leaving them looking at a sparky dust trail causes their character to lose a level. You tried to kill him. He ran away. You didn't get AP. Get over it.

One more thing people fail to consider. Sorcerers are a bit lacking in the self healing department. They have a surge morph for heals on crit, a passive for a little healing when hitting someone with a dark magic ability, and Dark Exchange, which leaves them stationary and vulnerable for the duration. Bolt Escape helps balance that by giving them a half way decent opportunity to run away. Limiting it to one cast per thirty seconds or worse, making each cast cost the majority of the magicka pool, only serves to let them pretend they can run away but not actually be capable of it under most circumstances.