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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668861
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – November 18
• ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – November 19, 9:00AM EST (14:00 UTC) - 6:00PM EST (23:00 UTC)
• PlayStation®: EU megaserver for maintenance – November 19, 23:00 UTC (6:00PM EST) - November 20, 17:00 UTC (12:00PM EST)
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668861
Make Bolt Escape cost 20% of the magicka pool.
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Mykah✭✭✭I changed the thread title and my subsequent posts to 20% mana cost reduction in the hopes ZoS will take a serious look at my suggestion.0 -
ErilAq✭✭✭It doesn't need a change. let's say a sorc does what everyone is complaining about and ports 5-7 times to get away. he now has almost no mana. Ergo, he's useless.
"but ErilAq" you say, "now he can just teleport back to me and kill me!" Not quite.
you see, if a sorcerer teleported 5-7 times to get away, his magicka is low, and his magicka regen is even lower. even if he waits to gain all his life and magica back, he'll have to...... wait for it...... teleport 5-7 times in the hopes of even catching you, which leaves him in an extremely weakened state. In fact, if you can't kill a sorcerer then, it's a l2p issue.
(granted, this is being overly optimistic in assuming people don't try to chase said sorcerer like a chicken with it's head cut off.... but again, that's a l2p issue)
Internet armchair warriors attack! Yayayayayayaaaaaah!!!!2 -
Mykah✭✭✭"Bolt Escape helps balance that by giving them a half way decent opportunity to run away."
What an understatment. BE even with 20% mana cost would still allow a sorc to escape almost any conflict even if they are jumped.
In its current form BE is much more than an escape utility, its an escape, catch, cc, and re-engage utility wrapped into one slot that can be spammed.Edited by Mykah on 14 May 2014 20:172 -
Mykah✭✭✭"If a sorcerer teleported 5-7 times to get away, his magicka is low"
Simply not true for high end sorcs.
A 20% mana cost would actually have very little effect on lower level sorcs using it as an escape utility. What it would effect is a high end sorc using it to kite, re-engage, and chase every other class with very little cost to their resource pool, which is the actual issue.
At 20% mana cost it would still be an excelent escape utility for sorcs regardless of level or gear.1 -
ErilAq✭✭✭Mykah, 20% is 5 ports. yes, it wouldn't make much of a difference, because that's pretty much already what it costs. and yes, it hurts even for high end sorcs. using it reduces magicka recovery. Let them run. they're useless when running. go on your merry way, knowing you beat them and that they aren't doing anything for their team. I know it's annoying, but getting the kill isn't everything. Don't follow them, since that plays directly to their strengths. In addition, if they stack gear to spam bolt escape, they're directly gimping their dps, since it reduces crit% and damage. Please, let's not mistake a l2p issue and an annoyance for something that's considered OP.Internet armchair warriors attack! Yayayayayayaaaaaah!!!!0
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xDonMega✭✭✭It's the same in every game.. melee thinks they should be able to smash the casters once they get into melee range.
And I feel that the people crying about this the most are the tank types that think most fights should be two people standing toe-to-toe, facerolling the keyboard.
Any other type of fighting is completely lost to them..
Edited by xDonMega on 14 May 2014 20:360 -
NordJitsu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I changed the thread title and my subsequent posts to 20% mana cost reduction in the hopes ZoS will take a serious look at my suggestion.
Dude, no one is taking you seriously.1 -
Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭"Bolt Escape helps balance that by giving them a half way decent opportunity to run away."
What an understatment. BE even with 20% mana cost would still allow a sorc to escape almost any conflict even if they are jumped.
In its current form BE is much more than an escape utility, its an escape, catch, cc, and re-engage utility wrapped into one slot that can be spammed.
If they are jumped, that's it for the sorcerer. Bolt Escape is not a magical get out of jail free card. Well, it's magical, but it's not a get out of jail free card. :P
As I said, it does not break stuns, disorients, roots or snares.
The stun part of BE allows them to put some distance between them them and the enemy on the first cast so they have a chance at a second cast. And the stun can be blocked.
If you're still upset by the fact that they have a skill that gives them half a chance to run, what are your feelings on nightblades then? I mean, it's not like they can turn invisible or run faster or anything. Oh, wait...Edited by Glurin on 14 May 2014 20:37"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."2 -
Nijjion✭✭✭✭I believe BE is ok at cost for 1-2 times but after that it should have a negative effect. I would go for something like how Kassadin is in League of Legends. Each time cast gives you a debuff for say 10 seconds each cast of BE increase the cost (double each time?). Each cast refreshes the timer and if you don't cast the skill for 10 seconds the cost goes back to normal and then the cycle continues.
After 1-2 casts you have done what the skill is intended to do(get out of melee range). Any more than that is just absurdity in a RvR scene. Using it more just gives such a massive mobility advantage that in a RvR scene is crazy to have over others. I really hope they didn't intend the skill so that you can get away from every fight you want... would of thought more of Matt Firor being from DAoC but guess people don't learn from other games really.
We don't want GW2 metas of this class is only good for roaming ect as that what is happening with Sorcs with BE and starting to happen with NB and being able to hide in combat. Doesn't ESO advertise all classes can do everything? Encouraging to not get BE changed is going to set the meta up on not using the other classes for roaming.NijjijjioN - DK - AR27NijjioN - NB -Daggerfall CovenantThe Nice Guys GuildEverQuest -> Dark Age of Camelot -> Ragnarok Online -> Cabal Online -> Guild Wars 1 -> Warhammer Online -> Vindictus -> SWTOR -> Tera -> Guild Wars 2 -> Elder Scrolls Online ->
Eagerly awaiting Camelot Unchained.1 -
ForTheRealm✭✭✭It doesn't need a change. let's say a sorc does what everyone is complaining about and ports 5-7 times to get away. he now has almost no mana. Ergo, he's useless.
"but ErilAq" you say, "now he can just teleport back to me and kill me!" Not quite.
you see, if a sorcerer teleported 5-7 times to get away, his magicka is low, and his magicka regen is even lower. even if he waits to gain all his life and magica back, he'll have to...... wait for it...... teleport 5-7 times in the hopes of even catching you, which leaves him in an extremely weakened state. In fact, if you can't kill a sorcerer then, it's a l2p issue.
(granted, this is being overly optimistic in assuming people don't try to chase said sorcerer like a chicken with it's head cut off.... but again, that's a l2p issue)
I guess you haven't heard about "Dark Conversion", really... ;-) ?
Try it! You can teleport 5-7 times, Dark Conversion (replenish Magicka and Health), and.... yes teleport again 5-7 times....Edited by ForTheRealm on 15 May 2014 07:510 -
ForTheRealm✭✭✭"Here's the reality. If you burn your entire magicka pool on BE, you get five, six, maybe seven casts. Just enough to get you safely out of the battle..."
Oh you made me almost cry for those poor Sorcs...;-) when you BE out of the battle and out of mana, you should use Dark Conversion - that's what most Sorcs do. And then you can BE again...0 -
Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭You do know Dark Conversion leaves you standing there with your arms in the air holding a sign that says "Hit me!", right? It's not an instant trade of stamina to magicka."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."3 -
ForTheRealm✭✭✭You do know Dark Conversion leaves you standing there with your arms in the air holding a sign that says "Hit me!", right? It's not an instant trade of stamina to magicka.
So, what your saying, when you are already 5-7 zips out of battle and considerably safe you would like to have also instant magicka and health regen?! LOL
youtube.com/watch?v=GnrqZzKPbQw
I totally agree with the comment from the movie. If you defend Bolt Escape in the current form, then your approach is "not to lose" and not "to win"...Edited by ForTheRealm on 15 May 2014 09:441 -
ruzlb16_ESO✭✭✭Not really. Many sorcs use BE offensively, which this suggestion (along with all the other 'let's just massively increase the cost' threads) would completely eliminate - it'd become solely used for running away, which would mean ALL sorcs are just using it to escape from a fight, unlike at the moment where it's only used by some sorcs for that purpose (i.e., those that need to escape).
Also, there's a lot of counters to BE in the weapon trees, universally available to everyone (and just as spammable as BE for full-stam builds - not that anyone uses a full stam build, which may be why we have so much QQ atm, just like no-one actually had any FG skills or slotted any prior to the Vampire Plague). Any charge ability has a longer range than BE (33-50% longer, in fact). DK ranged pulls have a longer range. And BE does have negative effects - a mana regen debuff. Almost none of the 'nerf BE!' threads acknowledge these facts (even ones which have videos of people successfully using these counters).
I'd maybe - and only maybe - support the idea of having the majicka regen debuff from BE stack-and-refresh on cast. That way, sorcs would be encouraged to wait 5-6 seconds between casts to clear the debuff, and would become increasingly helpless the more they cast it. But I'd want to see it tested on the PTS and receive feedback on the issue before it got anywhere near live, because once again this encourages negative play with the skill - it makes sorcs less likely to hang around when using it.1 -
bitaken✭✭✭✭✭"Putting 20% mana cost on BE would actually make it an escape tool. In its current form its an escape catch and CC tool that can be spammed without a second thought. Wheres the skill? Wheres the strategy? Its grossly OP and the sorcs half baked responses here are to be expected." - Mykah
Where's the skill in most NB's with any sort of setup being able to get me to ~25% health without being able to do anything at all?
Where's the skill for one handed and shield (ab)users to gap close on me and stun me at the same time and then spam the same ability on me till I am dead?
Where's the skill in DK Vamps solo wiping entire raid groups three weeks ago without even breaking a sweat?
Where's the skill in stacking DK's in zerg buster groups with templar's feeding them stamina and just laughing as everything that you throw at them harmlessly bounces off 360 degree shield block?
And people are worried about a sorc running away? Or chasing them down with this ability? You really are crying about nothing. Bolt escape is quite fine as it is. There are plenty of abilities in this game that are grossly OP....BE is not one of them.PvP Lead Officer for Einherjar
Member of Einherjar and associated guilds since 2001
A multi Gaming community of players.3 -
ForTheRealm✭✭✭"Putting 20% mana cost on BE would actually make it an escape tool. In its current form its an escape catch and CC tool that can be spammed without a second thought. Wheres the skill? Wheres the strategy? Its grossly OP and the sorcs half baked responses here are to be expected." - Mykah
Where's the skill in most NB's with any sort of setup being able to get me to ~25% health without being able to do anything at all?
Where's the skill for one handed and shield (ab)users to gap close on me and stun me at the same time and then spam the same ability on me till I am dead?
Where's the skill in DK Vamps solo wiping entire raid groups three weeks ago without even breaking a sweat?
Where's the skill in stacking DK's in zerg buster groups with templar's feeding them stamina and just laughing as everything that you throw at them harmlessly bounces off 360 degree shield block?
And people are worried about a sorc running away? Or chasing them down with this ability? You really are crying about nothing. Bolt escape is quite fine as it is. There are plenty of abilities in this game that are grossly OP....BE is not one of them.
I understand you try to preserve your right to never die, but please, don't compare group behaviour to class ability.... unless you think Bolt Escape has the same weight in the PVP as a group of DKs... ;-)
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Mykah✭✭✭"Putting 20% mana cost on BE would actually make it an escape tool. In its current form its an escape catch and CC tool that can be spammed without a second thought. Wheres the skill? Wheres the strategy? Its grossly OP and the sorcs half baked responses here are to be expected." - Mykah
Where's the skill in most NB's with any sort of setup being able to get me to ~25% health without being able to do anything at all?
Where's the skill for one handed and shield (ab)users to gap close on me and stun me at the same time and then spam the same ability on me till I am dead?
Where's the skill in DK Vamps solo wiping entire raid groups three weeks ago without even breaking a sweat?
Where's the skill in stacking DK's in zerg buster groups with templar's feeding them stamina and just laughing as everything that you throw at them harmlessly bounces off 360 degree shield block?
And people are worried about a sorc running away? Or chasing them down with this ability? You really are crying about nothing. Bolt escape is quite fine as it is. There are plenty of abilities in this game that are grossly OP....BE is not one of them.
In order;
1. It takes considerable setup to jump a moving target from stealth. Counter to this is Mage Light.
2. To land shield charge you need to reticle your target, LoS to target, path to target, and be in range of the target. BE literally has zero of these 4 prereqs. The counter to shield charge is CC break for 5 second immunity or Immovable.
3. Vamp skills were fixed.
4. The skill is coordinating a group. The counter is coordinating a group and CC and focus fire the templars.
5. If its an escape utility why is it so effective used for offense?Edited by Mykah on 15 May 2014 14:022 -
Mykah✭✭✭
NB stealth is hard countered by mage light, which any class can have."Bolt Escape helps balance that by giving them a half way decent opportunity to run away."
What an understatment. BE even with 20% mana cost would still allow a sorc to escape almost any conflict even if they are jumped.
In its current form BE is much more than an escape utility, its an escape, catch, cc, and re-engage utility wrapped into one slot that can be spammed.
If they are jumped, that's it for the sorcerer. Bolt Escape is not a magical get out of jail free card. Well, it's magical, but it's not a get out of jail free card. :P
As I said, it does not break stuns, disorients, roots or snares.
The stun part of BE allows them to put some distance between them them and the enemy on the first cast so they have a chance at a second cast. And the stun can be blocked.
If you're still upset by the fact that they have a skill that gives them half a chance to run, what are your feelings on nightblades then? I mean, it's not like they can turn invisible or run faster or anything. Oh, wait...
I am actually suggesting a change that would make BE used only as an escape mechanism instead of a chase mechanism also, so if you use BE only to escape, it wont really matter to you anyways.
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Mykah✭✭✭
Maybe I should make a propaganda video full of staged opposition non-sense to force my agenda onto a game to maintain unbalanced mechanics that favor my main class.
Then I can be a cheese peen like you.
Edited by Mykah on 15 May 2014 13:550 -
Mykah✭✭✭
If a sorc can actually only use BE a total of 5-7 then a 20% mana cost will have no effect on gameplay whatsoever, by your own logic.It doesn't need a change. let's say a sorc does what everyone is complaining about and ports 5-7 times to get away. he now has almost no mana. Ergo, he's useless.
"but ErilAq" you say, "now he can just teleport back to me and kill me!" Not quite.
you see, if a sorcerer teleported 5-7 times to get away, his magicka is low, and his magicka regen is even lower. even if he waits to gain all his life and magica back, he'll have to...... wait for it...... teleport 5-7 times in the hopes of even catching you, which leaves him in an extremely weakened state. In fact, if you can't kill a sorcerer then, it's a l2p issue.
(granted, this is being overly optimistic in assuming people don't try to chase said sorcerer like a chicken with it's head cut off.... but again, that's a l2p issue)
Edited by Mykah on 15 May 2014 13:550 -
bitaken✭✭✭✭✭2. To land shield charge you need to reticle your target, LoS to target, path to target, and be in range of the target. BE literally has zero of these 4 prereqs.
So in your mind it's hard to reticle a target? I think I have found part of your problem with BE.
What I see now in this thread is pretty simple. A guy who can't target well or use the right keys to lock his target whining about sorcs being able to run away from his gank / zerg / attempt at killing.
Honestly, BE is not a very good offensive tool. A short duration stun that gives CC immunity? Seriously? The only good offensive tool is to chase people down and maybe CC them for the rest of a group to get there and kill because by the time the sorc gets to you they cannot kill you - they simply don't have the magicka to do it.
PvP Lead Officer for Einherjar
Member of Einherjar and associated guilds since 2001
A multi Gaming community of players.1 -
Mykah✭✭✭They absolutely have the mana to chase down anyone and dps them, if we're talking meta game with vr10s. Get real.0
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Nooblet✭✭✭✭As a sorc I wouldn't care if they removed it completely.... as long as they also remove every gap closer and pull-in ability. I'd actually prefer that vs the current situation. I have bolt escape on my bar for one reason: enemies can charge on top of me and spam talons, or pull me in, both of which I have about 2 maybe 3 seconds before I'm dead. That is pretty much the only counter unless I wanted to swap to shield.
I prefer to actually fight people, not see who can spam their escape/gap closers more. A light armor mage has 0 % chance of victory against an equal rank/gear DK if their gap closers overtake the escapability of bolt escape.
Bolt escape HAS to be more effective than gap closers or its pointless magicka dump.
The more I think about it, the more I want them all removed and go back to typical push/kite with some cc mixed in. But I doubt that will ever happen.Edited by Nooblet on 15 May 2014 18:300 -
Ashlynne✭✭✭
It is a very effective way to kite mobs which can not be CCed.So why do you need Bolt Escape Spam in PvE?
This entire disussion is pointless. There is nothing OP when someone runs away from you. All what people want is to get their kill and come to the forum to nerf this escape mechanic. They like to sit in a big group and get angry when the single sorc decided to run instead of getting ganked.
Oh no! You mean... gasp... they would have to stay, fight, and actually use some skill like the other classes?0 -
Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭piotreb17_ESO4 wrote: »You do know Dark Conversion leaves you standing there with your arms in the air holding a sign that says "Hit me!", right? It's not an instant trade of stamina to magicka.
So, what your saying, when you are already 5-7 zips out of battle and considerably safe you would like to have also instant magicka and health regen?! LOL
That's a strawman. You said they use Dark Exchange after BE and just chain cast BE again. I pointed out that Dark Exchange leaves them standing there like a scarecrow ready to be pelted with arrows. That's it. I did not say I wanted any change to take place, let alone making Dark Exchange an instant cast.piotreb17_ESO4 wrote: »youtube.com/watch?v=GnrqZzKPbQw
I totally agree with the comment from the movie. If you defend Bolt Escape in the current form, then your approach is "not to lose" and not "to win"...
And what's wrong with that? Why should anyone be 100% forced to stay and fight whether they want to or not? Because you'll lose out on AP for killing them if they don't? Tough cookies. Contrary to what you think, they are not there to spoon feed you AP."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."0 -
ErilAq✭✭✭Dark exchange leaves you completely open. So yes, they can dark exchange after getting away, and bolt back to you. but then they have 0 mana and have to dark exchange again.... or suffer low mana and no mana regen. And if they decide to dark exchange next to your face and you let them then that's a l2p issue. If they use dark exchange to further get away from you.... then it doesn't affect you at all. Bolt escape is meant to create a gap between you and your opponent. It's not an offensive ability, it's a defensive one. learn to counter it.
Internet armchair warriors attack! Yayayayayayaaaaaah!!!!2 -
xDonMega✭✭✭If you support Bolt Escape it's because you are playing not to lose..
Me, on the other hand, play to win that's why I rolled DK
HURRR DUURRR2 -
ErilAq✭✭✭Since there is a lot of misinformation in this thread, I'm going to list the range of each classes "movement" abilities:
DK: Fiery grip-15m (can be morphed to 22m)
NB: Teleporting stike-22m (can be morphed to stun, make target take 30% more damage on next attack
Templar: focused charge-22m (can be morphed to make casting enemies off balanced)
Sorcerer: Bolt escape- 15m (can be morphed to stun opponent and do minor damage)
So every class has a counter to bolt escape.... that can also be spammed, and can all have a greater range than bolt escape. /thread.Internet armchair warriors attack! Yayayayayayaaaaaah!!!!2 -
Asava✭✭✭
It is a very effective way to kite mobs which can not be CCed.So why do you need Bolt Escape Spam in PvE?
This entire disussion is pointless. There is nothing OP when someone runs away from you. All what people want is to get their kill and come to the forum to nerf this escape mechanic. They like to sit in a big group and get angry when the single sorc decided to run instead of getting ganked.
Oh no! You mean... gasp... they would have to stay, fight, and actually use some skill like the other classes?
The only skill a light sorc has in melee range is Die. That would have to be addressed. Either they double the DPS of sorcs or double their armor in light armor if you want them to stay in a melee fight. Casted skills would also have to be made instant instead of casted because it's too easy to interrupt a 1.4 second casted spell in melee range. There has to be a trade off on what you want. It also has to be equitable as well. A sorc in melee range should not be instant fodder.
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