SUPRISE ! People dont like VENGEANCE

reazea · April 26

spartaxoxo wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Also the whole point of my statement was that while those pvers and questers outnumber us, they don't spend money on the game as long as end game players do, both from trials communities and greyhost pvp.

A ton of casuals buy things like houses and skyshard skips

reazea wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

If it was only going by that, the only ones that would get content is PvE explorers/questers as it is by far the most popular activity in the game.

Thats basically exactly whats going on now lol pvp is largely ignored and honestly at this point I'd prefer it stay that way.

That said, if they took back that false statement of 'we cant fix greyhost' when they did before, on accident, and especially considering the only thing that needs fixing is ballgroups gamebreaking lag effects, then this would no longer be the case and even more players would populate Greyhost than what already are.

That was true for a long time but more recently we've gotten 3 person Battlegrounds, Vengeance, and the upcoming smaller zone warfare map coming up.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Also the whole point of my statement was that while those pvers and questers outnumber us, they don't spend money on the game as long as end game players do, both from trials communities and greyhost pvp.

A ton of casuals buy things like houses. If they weren't big spenders they wouldn't have catered to them so long. A lot of different types spend money on this game. That's why it routinely stays on the high earner list on Steam despite a relatively small playerbase on there.

Nobody asked for the trainwreck ZOS has turned BG's into.
Nobody asked for vengeance.
Nobody asked for a pared down single keep Cyrodiil map.

So what people seem to be promoting is the removal of a game mode we know and love (GH) for systems we know very little to nothing of, and what we do know of vengeance is all bad.

Where did I say remove GH? My point this entire time is we shouldn't treat it like one or the other but this game needs to offer both. New game modes and new content for core game play. All the good games give both.

Your profile indicates you've been on this forum and in game a long time. So it's confusing that you haven't wised up to or recognized the past patterns and behavior from ZOS. Vengeance was created to replace GH. The only reason it hasn't already is the resistance we're providing to their effort.

BardokRedSnow · April 26

spartaxoxo wrote: »

A ton of casuals buy things like houses.

Sure, never said they didn't. I said they don't purchase for as long as end game players do. It is logical, casual players are casual because they casually play. Casual play is once in a while, on occasion, when in the mood every now and then.

If you are casually playing, you aren't logging in every day, and if you aren't logging in every day, you are less likely to see all the new shinies in the crown store including new houses, furnishings etc.

Pvpers of GH are widely considered, on these forums anyway, hardcore sweaties who meta chase every piece of equipment that will help them farm said casuals. That requires spending and logging in regularly. They're obviously more likely to spend.

Fact is, a company needs both audiences. Both the casual once in a blue moon spender, and the hardcore sweaties that will be attracted to new shinies to flex while they're running around all day every day in cyrodiil.

And fact is the more the casual player plays the game, the more likely he or she is to one day no longer be casual. Those players need end game content to hold them, and, to hold them Zos needs to treat those communities with respect and fix their dang servers and not tell them its impossible to fix, when thats obviously not true. Especially to curtail their content to the former community over the latter.

JemadarofCaerSalis · April 26

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

I dont think pushing away a bunch of highly dedicated players

They're fine doing that if pushing away 10 whales brings in 100 new whales.

Clearly they are, except unfortunately for them Vengeance isn’t satisfying enough for anyone, when their biggest defenders here aren’t even playing it.

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Also the whole point of my statement was that while those pvers and questers outnumber us, they don't spend money on the game as long as end game players do, both from trials communities and greyhost pvp.

Just because someone doesn't get into PvP or Trials doesn't mean they aren't a long term player. So many of those PvEers and questers could easily be long term players putting as much money as the PvPers and Trial communities.

Basically Casual/PVEer does not equal 'here today, gone tomorrow'.

It does actually, casual insinuates on and off player, by the definition they’re not spending as much as end game players, in time or money.

reazea wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Also the whole point of my statement was that while those pvers and questers outnumber us, they don't spend money on the game as long as end game players do, both from trials communities and greyhost pvp.

Just because someone doesn't get into PvP or Trials doesn't mean they aren't a long term player. So many of those PvEers and questers could easily be long term players putting as much money as the PvPers and Trial communities.

Basically Casual/PVEer does not equal 'here today, gone tomorrow'.

But casual does mean the player has very little motivation to purchase cosmetics. ....especially given the real world prices ZOS charges.

So, you are spending money every minute, every single week, every single month, you are playing ESO?

Because being a casual player doesn't mean that you have very little motivation to purchase cosmetics.

It simply means you don't play every day. You might still like to do housing on the weekends, or like to look pretty while riding around doing quests when you can.

Casuals can still purchase ESO+, because it has stuff for them. They can still buy crowns each and every month so they can get stuff they like. There is now the premium tomes that casuals can buy every season.

They can still have alts where they try different things, have different classes, or roleplay different characters, all of which they might want to buy their own outfits, and houses and skips for.

There are plenty of things that casual players might want to buy and will spend money on, even if they aren't playing the game every single day.

Jammy420 · April 26

Poss wrote: »

Jammy420 wrote: »

So like, yeah. The thing is, a lot of people do not wanna have to regrind for endless hours every few months to be able to play pvp. Sometimes people have to take a break, then we come back, and bam, we cant pvp anymore without the latest and greatest setups. That is extremely counterintuitive when it comes to pvp. PvP should be about PvP, not grinding.

But people are more than happy to regrind for endless hours every few months whenever a nerf or buff renders their PvE gear not adequate enough when spanking a dummy. Why should PvP gear be any different?

No, we arent. Trust me. Gear fatigue is definitely a thing. It is one of the reasons I stopped playing 2 years ago. It is however nice not to have to do it for both pvp AND pve. And the thing is, PVEing to get gear for PVE is just normal, having to spend hours PVEing to PVP is just dumb and counterintuitive.

BardokRedSnow · April 26

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

I dont think pushing away a bunch of highly dedicated players

They're fine doing that if pushing away 10 whales brings in 100 new whales.

Clearly they are, except unfortunately for them Vengeance isn’t satisfying enough for anyone, when their biggest defenders here aren’t even playing it.

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Also the whole point of my statement was that while those pvers and questers outnumber us, they don't spend money on the game as long as end game players do, both from trials communities and greyhost pvp.

Just because someone doesn't get into PvP or Trials doesn't mean they aren't a long term player. So many of those PvEers and questers could easily be long term players putting as much money as the PvPers and Trial communities.

Basically Casual/PVEer does not equal 'here today, gone tomorrow'.

It does actually, casual insinuates on and off player, by the definition they’re not spending as much as end game players, in time or money.

reazea wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Also the whole point of my statement was that while those pvers and questers outnumber us, they don't spend money on the game as long as end game players do, both from trials communities and greyhost pvp.

Just because someone doesn't get into PvP or Trials doesn't mean they aren't a long term player. So many of those PvEers and questers could easily be long term players putting as much money as the PvPers and Trial communities.

Basically Casual/PVEer does not equal 'here today, gone tomorrow'.

But casual does mean the player has very little motivation to purchase cosmetics. ....especially given the real world prices ZOS charges.

So, you are spending money every minute, every single week, every single month, you are playing ESO?

I think my previous post above this more than adequately addresses your response, see above for reference.

xylena · April 26

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Pvpers of GH are widely considered, on these forums anyway, hardcore sweaties who meta chase every piece of equipment that will help them farm said casuals

Indeed GH is usually two types of players. Beginner to mid casuals who are clueless to why they keep getting stomped, and the sweatlords who do nothing but stomp casuals. Throw in a few diehards who will play this game no matter what until the sun explodes.

The sweatlords and diehards may stay on GH, but those casuals are mostly gonna go to Vengeance where they can figure out what's going on without being instantly deleted by immortals. The obtuse build system that GH players love so much also severely gatekeeps their population.

Jammy420 · April 26

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Jammy420 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Jammy420 wrote: »

The bars are not equal to Grey Host. 1 bar is like full bars grey host, so like, you are not really showing any useful data. On EU PC its almost always 2-full. Which is what, 3 times more than greyhost?

on ours on pcna during busy hours you will see 2 bars and yes thats anywhere from 600-under 900. Problem is, thats one faction. The others are anywhere from 300-600.

This would be just fine, except Vengeance is a numbers game, and yall have even less ways of dealing with a zerg than we do. Can't speak for EU but on NA what happens is you have 300-600 players on AD and DC sitting in keeps while EP has six scrolls and zergs the map, then the rest of the players either leave, or log in on EP toons, rinse repeat.

So technically yea Vengeance has more players than what GH allows. But its not active pvp. And its not greyhost players either for the most part. I know because my friends list is full of them, and on a friday evening I had under 10 people online, which is crazy.

Meanwhile with greyhost you get 360 active players, with over 2 hours of a queue for people. Not ideal, said queue, which is why Zos needs to get back to figuring out how to improve the server and raising that cap, rather than just making pvp waiting rooms essentially, we already have those.

As someone else said, PC EU is equal population across the board, around 2-3 bars at primetime, that is WAY above the normal gh server. Me thinks it is popular, and the gh sweaties are just big mad. And like someone else said, we have golden pursuits this week, so a lot of people are doing those. So even with those, the population is higher than gh. So like, yeah. The thing is, a lot of people do not wanna have to regrind for endless hours every few months to be able to play pvp. Sometimes people have to take a break, then we come back, and bam, we cant pvp anymore without the latest and greatest setups. That is extremely counterintuitive when it comes to pvp. PvP should be about PvP, not grinding.

Will be a bit off topic here,

The game has barely changed at all for the last 2-3 years in terms of gear. For me PvP became stale because nothing ever changed. Sure it was convenient to move the same 3-5 sets between each characters (exceptions existed ofc) but god was it stale. As much as it´s anecdotal experience from my end, the same goes for everyone that I used to play with. We all took a long break because of the fact that nothing changed.

Same thing can be said for PvE as well, where the game has been more or less the same ever since arcanist came out. Change is good in MMO´s because it forces you to explore new options, which is more often than not exciting and fun.

As someone who played a nightblade brawler, trust me, it changed enough that I wanted to just vomit. Maybe for some classes it did not change, but for mine it definitely did, and I have all but stopped playing that character because god I was tired of having to move things around and change gear every few months. On vengeance I can just hop in, pvp, hop out. 0 problem. Is it perfect? No, but its way WAY better than the GH mess imo.

spartaxoxo · April 26

reazea wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Also the whole point of my statement was that while those pvers and questers outnumber us, they don't spend money on the game as long as end game players do, both from trials communities and greyhost pvp.

A ton of casuals buy things like houses and skyshard skips

reazea wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

If it was only going by that, the only ones that would get content is PvE explorers/questers as it is by far the most popular activity in the game.

Thats basically exactly whats going on now lol pvp is largely ignored and honestly at this point I'd prefer it stay that way.

That said, if they took back that false statement of 'we cant fix greyhost' when they did before, on accident, and especially considering the only thing that needs fixing is ballgroups gamebreaking lag effects, then this would no longer be the case and even more players would populate Greyhost than what already are.

That was true for a long time but more recently we've gotten 3 person Battlegrounds, Vengeance, and the upcoming smaller zone warfare map coming up.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Also the whole point of my statement was that while those pvers and questers outnumber us, they don't spend money on the game as long as end game players do, both from trials communities and greyhost pvp.

A ton of casuals buy things like houses. If they weren't big spenders they wouldn't have catered to them so long. A lot of different types spend money on this game. That's why it routinely stays on the high earner list on Steam despite a relatively small playerbase on there.

Nobody asked for the trainwreck ZOS has turned BG's into.
Nobody asked for vengeance.
Nobody asked for a pared down single keep Cyrodiil map.

So what people seem to be promoting is the removal of a game mode we know and love (GH) for systems we know very little to nothing of, and what we do know of vengeance is all bad.

Where did I say remove GH? My point this entire time is we shouldn't treat it like one or the other but this game needs to offer both. New game modes and new content for core game play. All the good games give both.

Your profile indicates you've been on this forum and in game a long time. So it's confusing that you haven't wised up to or recognized the past patterns and behavior from ZOS. Vengeance was created to replace GH. The only reason it hasn't already is the resistance we're providing to their effort.

They seldom outright delete game modes. I never once thought they'd delete it. They won't even kick off old consoles. I did think it would replace the dead campaigns like Ravenwatch. Which is what happened.

SeaGtGruff · April 26

reazea wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Now that I've completed the Golden Pursuits and all of my weekly challenges, I've been spending a few hours in Vengeance. The population bars have never gotten over 1 bar per alliance this morning/afternoon, but there seem to be many players on, and much PvPing and sieging.

I'm warming up to Vengeance-- that is, I'm feeling better about my chances in Vengeance. As a player who's not that good at PvP, much of my time in GH is spent soloing resources, and helping capture or defend keeps if other players from my alliance are on and actively PvPing. But soloing a resource in Vengeance has always been beyond me-- until this morning. Now that I've been able to successfully solo a number of resources, I feel like I could atill enjoy playing in Vengeance even when there are too few players from my alliance on.

Don't be afraid. Vengeance isn't PvP. It's more like Sumo suit wrestling.

Not sure where you read "fear" into anything I wrote. I'm no stranger to GH-- maybe not as much of a regular there as all of the dedicated PvPers, but definitely no stranger-- and I'm sure there are many AD and EP players from GH who will be very happy to verify that they kill me a lot there, and that I am known to run up to enemy siege or enemy camps to try to burn them even though I'm vastly outnumbered, or ride up all alone to a resource that's being flipped by a dozen enemies, or into a keep that's being taken by several dozen enemy players, despite knowing it is going to be certain insta-death for me. Other players might be afraid to die in PvP, but I'm not one of them.

As for your dismissal of Vengeance, I might still be mostly on the fence about it-- I do love GH-- but to claim that Vengeance isn't PvP is just silly. There was a lot of heavy-duty PvP going on this morning in Vengeance on PCNA. And EP seems to be dominating this current Vengeance test campaign on PCNA, so there must be a lot of EP players who enjoy Vengeance. And there were a fair many AD players there, too.

BardokRedSnow · April 26

xylena wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Pvpers of GH are widely considered, on these forums anyway, hardcore sweaties who meta chase every piece of equipment that will help them farm said casuals

Indeed GH is usually two types of players. Beginner to mid casuals who are clueless to why they keep getting stomped, and the sweatlords who do nothing but stomp casuals. Throw in a few diehards who will play this game no matter what until the sun explodes.

The sweatlords and diehards may stay on GH, but those casuals are mostly gonna go to Vengeance where they can figure out what's going on without being instantly deleted by immortals. The obtuse build system that GH players love so much also severely gatekeeps their population.

There’s a lot more variation than that lol and you know it. Theres a big difference between players like you and me for instance, vs ones like Beautiful, and Abroad, or Pelican, etc. Truly top tier high performing players.

The so called sweat lords are quite varied, which I don’t even consider myself because I will always play a Nord dk no matter the meta.

As for the gatekeeping, it’s no different than hardcore endgame trials which I always reference. It’s endgame content, it’s supposed to be gate kept by skill and knowledge. That’s the whole point of it being locked out, cp enabled and procs enabled.

BardokRedSnow · April 26

Though idk maybe after the refresh I’ll try a Nord Necromancer. We’ll see.

xylena · April 26

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Theres a big difference between players like you and me for instance, vs ones like

If you were really like me, you would love Vengeance too

BardokRedSnow · April 26

xylena wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Theres a big difference between players like you and me for instance, vs ones like

If you were really like me, you would love Vengeance too

This thing where yall misconstrue and misunderstand on purpose is so transparent lol, no one falls for it.

edit: then again you aren't playing vengeance either so perhaps we're not so different after all

Ordinator199 · April 26

The idea itself is not bad overall, however they need to make big adjustments.

One such adjustment would be giving 20-30% more damage, while lowering the tank class life by 20-30k life. Make fights more dynamic this way, dudes running around with 80k health and dragonblood skill is ridicolous.

xylena · April 26

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

edit: then again you aren't playing vengeance either so perhaps we're not so different after all

Are you a Saturday Morning cartoon villain now?

I'm flattered you think I am as "good" as you are though, usually I'm being called zergling trash by now. At least I know that if I win on even numbers (or outnumbered) on Vengeance, my win came from my skill, not my gear. On GH my stat sheet will win without me having to play.

xencthlu · April 26

Jammy420 wrote: »

As someone who played a nightblade brawler, trust me, it changed enough that I wanted to just vomit. Maybe for some classes it did not change, but for mine it definitely did, and I have all but stopped playing that character because god I was tired of having to move things around and change gear every few months. On vengeance I can just hop in, pvp, hop out. 0 problem. Is it perfect? No, but its way WAY better than the GH mess imo.

Oh, this is so interesting. I used to be a nightblade brawler in GH, too, as one of my main in game activities. I quit when multiclassing went live, and I'm also someone who really enjoys the simplicity and accessibility of Vengeance. GH did eventually just tire me out. It felt like I had to work a lot harder to achieve the same results I had a year or two ago. I didn't expect to see someone in a similar position to me on the forums. The way people make it sound, serious PVPers universally reject Vengeance.

I wonder if we're the only ones, or if there's something to this nightblade brawler angle.

xylena · April 26

xencthlu wrote: »

I wonder if we're the only ones, or if there's something to this nightblade brawler angle.

I mained NB brawler from 2016-2018 mostly during the Axe Bleed meta.

NB brawler is top solo meta for Vengeance and plays similarly to this era NB spec. It may be a bit too good (more that the other classes should be buffed), but it is enjoyable to tune and pilot.

heimdall14_9 · April 26

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I didn't even realize there was vengeance with everything else going on. We'll know more when it becomes an actual permanent server and the PvP guild boycotts to stop that fizzle out, I guess. Right now I think it's mostly PvE and Casual PvPers that enjoy Vengeance and I'm not sure how many are even aware that it's out. I didn't see it in the announcements.

It's not a "boycott", we just don't want to play this garbage.

Imagine if your trials and dungeons got replaced with a pve template for damage dealer, healer and tank, no sets to gain or earn, just vanilla template slop where everyone's the same and the difficulty was set to normal.

Worse, the player counts are tripled in number.

Would you like that? That's essentially what is happening here. Ultra snoozefest casual mode not even entertaining to pvers longer than two days.

Telling other people to not play it either and to join you in not playing it so the devs will listen is definitely a boycott.

This isn't happening anywhere I've seen and if it is, not in big enough numbers to matter.

I certainly have never said this and no one can claim otherwise. I wouldn't need to, its already a failed campaign, again.

It isn't even worth talking about unless someone can show an example of it occurring.

I never claimed you did. I talked about my experiences and what I witnessed in zone chat. I don't even think we play on the same server.

Then I repeat myself, an example here or there isn't worth discussing unless it can be shown its happening in large numbers enough to be a community movement. Here on PCNA we have the same result, a dead campaign without seemingly any calls for a "boycott". People just don't want to play it.

I CAN TELL YOU WITH OUT A DUOBT PSN NA PVPERS ARE YELLING IT OUT LOAD NOT GO PLAY IN THIS TESTING AS THEY DONT LIKE NOR WANT IT , SEEN IT IN PVP AND PVE CHATS NOT JUST THIS TIME BUT EVERY TIME IT HAS BEEN TESTED .... SO MAYBE THIS TIME AROUND THERES NOT BEEN A NEED TO BE SO ACTIVE ABOUT IT AS PLAYERS ARE ALREADY DOING IT

heimdall14_9 · April 26

xR3ACTORx wrote: »

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

Correction: Hardcore PVPers who only care about their own personal gameplay hate Vengeance with a passion.

To be honest everyone thinks about his own personal experience and enjoyment.

Even the people who pretend they don't.

Vengeance apologists wouldn't defend their beloved Vengeance for the sake of others.

It's because they care about their own personal experience.

MY KIDS LIKE IT I HATE IT IVE BEEN EMP 19XS THEY CANT GET INTO THE TOP10 .... SHOWS ME WHO LIKES AND WHO HATES IT HAVING 5 BOYS FROM AGAS 12-23 PLAYING IM ABLE TO GET INFO FROM A LOT OF DIFFERENT PLAY STYLES AND PLAYER LEVELS

Gizit · April 26

xylena wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

edit: then again you aren't playing vengeance either so perhaps we're not so different after all

Are you a Saturday Morning cartoon villain now?

I'm flattered you think I am as "good" as you are though, usually I'm being called zergling trash by now. At least I know that if I win on even numbers (or outnumbered) on Vengeance, my win came from my skill, not my gear. On GH my stat sheet will win without me having to play.

Trust me, your as good if not better than Bardok. for a player who in this very thread said he isnt trying that hard to stop people from playing this. I think he has ~70% of the postings here.

Veng was a good time. Looking forward to seeing what they add in next. I like everything, but if i got to vote on something it would be player speed needs to be increased.

blktauna · April 27

Why is it the same 3 guys telling everyone else vengence is a failure? When I'm in its full and fun. That's on PC EU AND PC NA.

We get you don't like it.

SneaK · April 27

ceruulean wrote: »

It’s PvP, someone name a game where the goal is to kill other players, but do it nicely?

Jeez some people are psycho and seem to have lost the idea of sport and fun. Sounds like the same mentality of having to go all out against a child and not knowing how to moderate yourself. Like the 2 EP that constantly tries to steamroll even if they recognize the other 2-man team is weaker and instead of letting people spar for fun, just keeps steamrolling and gloating over how good they are. Respect to those who know about fun and let me or newer players duel in enemy territory without just deleting us every time we come back for more fighting. I was holding block and bashing for 5 seconds straight for the 5th respawn so to those jerks who can't read a situation and that repeatedly Xv1 someone is rude, yeah. Just saying that your mentality is telling. Thank god you don't get AP for farming the same players over and over.

You got all that from that?

“Jeez” is right.

Ordinator199 · April 27

My biggest issue with Cyrodill PVP was always thats its simply too big of a map, I dont care about someone being strong, wearing procc sets etc. Its just having to constantly play horse simulator for 3-10 minutes to get back into action gets boring really really quick. Imo they should resize the entire thing and make it 25% smaller.

BardokRedSnow · April 27

Gizit wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

edit: then again you aren't playing vengeance either so perhaps we're not so different after all

Are you a Saturday Morning cartoon villain now?

I'm flattered you think I am as "good" as you are though, usually I'm being called zergling trash by now. At least I know that if I win on even numbers (or outnumbered) on Vengeance, my win came from my skill, not my gear. On GH my stat sheet will win without me having to play.

Trust me, your as good if not better than Bardok.

If thats the case that makes you third, trust me.

BardokRedSnow · April 27

xylena wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

edit: then again you aren't playing vengeance either so perhaps we're not so different after all

Are you a Saturday Morning cartoon villain now?

I'm flattered you think I am as "good" as you are though, usually I'm being called zergling trash by now. At least I know that if I win on even numbers (or outnumbered) on Vengeance, my win came from my skill, not my gear. On GH my stat sheet will win without me having to play.

Thats the joke lol but I did love my saturday cartoons, shoutout to Frieza

You, unlike Gizit used to be better than me I can acknowledge that, which is why its painful seeing some of the things you've said here, I dont get how you went from 1vXing to preferring to zerg, honestly.

DoofusMax · April 27

In broad terms, I like the idea of Vengeance: a leveled playing field where characters of any level can jump in and participate in PvP campaigns without needing to worry about being melted in a second (10 might be a stretch, but definitely more than second). Jumped in with an AD toon (just reached Level 10) in kind of off-hours on EU (early afternoon in UTC+1) and it was mostly a small zerg running from keep to keep slaughtering NPCs and capturing keeps. Great for racking up AP, but not horribly entertaining. Jumped in with Pact toon on NA, also slightly off-hours (mid-afternoon central time, IIRC) and there were many more AD players who were more than a bit peeved with us for taking their keeps. I think the KTD in my case leaned a bit more in the D direction than K, but it was fun. Is it something that I'd want to do on a daily or weekly basis? Absolutely not. As others have observed, the key to Vengeance seems to be that the side with the biggest ball group will generally win and playing "follow the leader" isn't an entertaining activity for more than a few minutes. I've got no problem with it as a once-in-a while campaign, but it is not something which holds any great appeal as a permanent campaign.

JohnRingo · April 27

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Gizit wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

edit: then again you aren't playing vengeance either so perhaps we're not so different after all

Are you a Saturday Morning cartoon villain now?

I'm flattered you think I am as "good" as you are though, usually I'm being called zergling trash by now. At least I know that if I win on even numbers (or outnumbered) on Vengeance, my win came from my skill, not my gear. On GH my stat sheet will win without me having to play.

Trust me, your as good if not better than Bardok.

If thats the case that makes you third, trust me.

Gentlemen, things seem to be a bit out of hand. May I remind you of the advice from the great Dean Martin when I say, "The problem is that the rest of the world is about two drinks behind". Respect.

xR3ACTORx · April 27

xylena wrote: »

xR3ACTORx wrote: »

are all the things that you say about others really what they are

yes I am psychic

*psychotic*

There...i fixed it for you.

xylena wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

I dont think pushing away a bunch of highly dedicated players

They're fine doing that if pushing away 10 whales brings in 100 new whales.

This doesn't make any sense since it's business 101 that keeping customer is easier for a company than generating new customers or bringing back customers that left. Which reflects the steam count.

But I don't expect everyone from the other side of the pond to understand.

moderatelyfatman · April 27

@BardokRedSnow @xylena

Gentlemen,

This forum is the best PvP I've seen since Vengeance went live.

Thank you for your service.

xylena · April 27

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

You, unlike Gizit used to be better than me I can acknowledge that, which is why its painful seeing some of the things you've said here, I dont get how you went from 1vXing to preferring to zerg, honestly.

It is convenient for me that my opponents are unable to accurately assess my skill level.

But to answer your question, a lot of 1vX is just bullying noobs that don't stand a chance, you don't need to run meta or even be that good to 1vX in build PvP. However this changes on Vengeance where you actually need to outplay your opponents 1vX, not just outbuild them to where they mathematically can't hurt you. Can you 1vX on Vengeance, Bardok?

Zerging is only one part of the greater large scale challenge in leading a faction to win a 60v60 battle, and once upon a time, the challenge of leading a faction to campaign victory, when the server was alive and players cared about that. When the campaign is full and people play to win it, lopsided PvDoor has serious risk for the map.