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• https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/683901
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• https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/683901
Vengeance is Dead.
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MorallyBipolar✭✭✭✭Artisian0001 wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Yeah, I do. The sad state of both Live and Vengeance are all the proof I need.Artisian0001 wrote: »You want people to be able to kill COORDINATED GROUPS
[snip]
This is not a valid thing to respond with. Xylena know how to PvP.
[edited to remove quote]
At one time this were true. Not so much today.5 -
Artisian0001✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »People shouting their complaints into the void about solo play like this is a single player RPG and as if vengeance wasn't made with much smaller target caps to prioritize them, and now it's dead. Almost like I've said a thousand times, people who complain don't even know what they want or what they are complaining about.
Smaller target caps don't benefit solo players, they benefit large groups. That's just common sense.
How is that common sense when the large groups can't heal all their group members effectively? Vengeance is made to incentivize people to stop grouping in such large amounts and branch out. That's common sense
Players just refuse to strop grouping. 0 -
MorallyBipolar✭✭✭✭Artisian0001 wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »People shouting their complaints into the void about solo play like this is a single player RPG and as if vengeance wasn't made with much smaller target caps to prioritize them, and now it's dead. Almost like I've said a thousand times, people who complain don't even know what they want or what they are complaining about.
Smaller target caps don't benefit solo players, they benefit large groups. That's just common sense.
How is that common sense when the large groups can't heal all their group members effectively? Vengeance is made to incentivize people to stop grouping in such large amounts and branch out. That's common sense Players just refuse to strop grouping.
ESO is an MMO. People are supposed to form groups to run content. It's an MMO. Why have other players in the game at all if you think grouping in an MMO is somehow a problem?7 -
TheAwesomeChimpanzee✭✭✭✭Artisian0001 wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »
That's just stacking heals to stall out a fight without killing anyone, like the ball groups on Live, and what the large raid guilds on Vengeance are doing. Their raw numbers flip flags, as opposed to a ball group circling the roof for 40 minutes.acastanza_ESO wrote: »If you could stack heals in a group you could at least try to coordinate fight back against a zerg.
What any large scale PvP needs is for solos/casuals/zergs to be able to put out enough damage to win outnumbered, without the need for the outside-game logistics and hard structure demanded by running in comp groups. This could potentially be accomplished by say, removing offensive AoE caps and restoring the lingering ground AoE on Meatbags.
Your point is lacking any real logical sense. You do this on every thread where you complain about the same things over and over and nothing is ever done to nerf it but you don't really ever take it as a sign. You want people to be able to kill COORDINATED GROUPS, while the lesser groups that aren't a ball group are NOT COORDINATED and also HAVE LESS PEOPOLE. Skills and sets like this already exist to benefit players when they are out numbered. There is no way to make smaller groups able to consistently kill bigger more coordinated groups without breaking the game entirely.
I mean just think of it, it doesn't make sense. Smaller groups can already beat better groups that are stacking heals if the player number isn't extremely significant. If the player number is extremely significant ex. 4v12, and the skill level of the players is similar, it would make zero sense for the 4 to consistently be able to beat the 12. When I go out with my group and I engage groups much bigger than ours, where the players are also skilled, we are aware we are not supposed to win every single engage, that's just what happens.
If you nerf heals or cross heals to a certain number, all you are doing is making that cap the next "ballgroup" number. Groups used to go up to 24 and were much worse, both on the server and for the health of the game's balance. A 12 man group isn't even that bad. Groups of 24 pugs should be able to deal with it unless they are just not great at the game, and guess what, if they aren't great they shouldn't win.
There isn't a logical proposal ever brought up when you engage on this topic, and you do it daily, for hours on end.
In addition, only bad ballgroups just heal stack and don't do anything. My group consistently fights and kills the biggest and best ballgroups in the game. Ballgroups always fight each other and one usually ends up winning. Stalling and perma fighting only happens with zergs who sit there and res each other over and over, which creates more lag than any ballgroup ever will, and no ballgroup ever complains about that lack of balance because guess what, it's just what happens where there are too many people. People aren't asking for ressing to be nerfed so it can't continue the way it does , but that is way healthier for the game than anything else proposed.
Nothing is ever done because devs don’t play PvP against ballgroups and ballgroups lobby against any nerfs successfully and make all other playstiles quit until they are only ones left(also in forum).
Noone is asking for smaller group to beat a larger more coordinated group consistently but there should be a way to do it at all.
If you trade blows with a larger group you loose even if they don’t have crosshealing but if you catch and burst them offguard or oil them they shouldn’t get saved by shared effects when otherwise they would have died.
IRL beeing in a larger group doesn’t protect you from lethal dmg but having larger number is still a usually decisive advantage in fights.xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Solos/pugs need to be able to break these situations or the game dies, as Live has proved.acastanza_ESO wrote: »This is exactly the situation that a ballgroup would be able to break on live.
No, an uncoordinated group should not be able to consistently beat or even seriously disrupt a coordinated larger force. That makes absolutely zero logical sense.
A small coordinated group, however, especially when fighting within a zerg, absolutely can disrupt and even kill 12-man ball groups if they build and coordinate properly. But explain to me how it makes any sense for a random pug running their solo YouTube build to deal lethal damage on their own to a group that has spent far more time and effort min-maxing comps, perfecting roles, and drilling execution specifically to have a competitive advantage.
That’s like saying a thousand untrained peasants should be able to consistently beat a hundred trained marines just because of sheer numbers. Use your brain — preparation, coordination, and skill are supposed to matter.3 -
CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Artisian0001 wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »People shouting their complaints into the void about solo play like this is a single player RPG and as if vengeance wasn't made with much smaller target caps to prioritize them, and now it's dead. Almost like I've said a thousand times, people who complain don't even know what they want or what they are complaining about.
Smaller target caps don't benefit solo players, they benefit large groups. That's just common sense.
How is that common sense when the large groups can't heal all their group members effectively? Vengeance is made to incentivize people to stop grouping in such large amounts and branch out. That's common sense Players just refuse to strop grouping.
They don't need to heal all their group members effectively if the players trying to damage them can't choose who they're damaging.
Heals in Vengeance are, for the most part, targeted heals or smart heals. That means you're either manually selecting low health players or the game is selecting low health players for you.
AoE Damage skills in Vengeance are simply choosing 3 players at random. There is no way to focus the low health pockets of players with AoE skills, which heavily incentivises stacking in a zerg.
The attacking solo player will spam their AoE skills and damage people at random, while the Zerg will spam AoE heals and heal only the people that need it the most.
Let's say you're in a small man trying to bomb a Zerg. Your 4 man group perfectly lines up your ultimates and skills right on top of a zerg, except you don't kill anyone because the game decided that each person in your group should damage different players in the zerg at random. The zerg spams AoE heals like the Necro corpse heal, and suddenly all the people that took damage are back up to full because only the people that needed healing were healed.
To actually incentivise solo/small man, heals should be capped and damage skills should be uncapped OR AoE damage skills should prioritize low health targets the same way that AoE heals do.Edited by CameraBeardThePirate on 26 September 2025 16:145 -
Iriidius✭✭✭✭✭Artisian0001 wrote: »People shouting their complaints into the void about solo play like this is a single player RPG and as if vengeance wasn't made with much smaller target caps to prioritize them, and now it's dead. Almost like I've said a thousand times, people who complain don't even know what they want or what they are complaining about.
Solo players didn’t asked for target cap and 1 oil/ballistae cap per player but for crossheal nerf and in this discussion ballgroups defend and want to reinstate only crosshealing.
Soloplayers didn’t wanted the changes they are suffering from.
Why would a solo player want a target cap for dmg aoes when as one target he is hit anyway and why would he limit Siege you can set to one so it needs multiple players to setup 3 oils at oilerspot?1 -
TheAwesomeChimpanzee✭✭✭✭Artisian0001 wrote: »People shouting their complaints into the void about solo play like this is a single player RPG and as if vengeance wasn't made with much smaller target caps to prioritize them, and now it's dead. Almost like I've said a thousand times, people who complain don't even know what they want or what they are complaining about.
Solo players didn’t asked for target cap and 1 oil/ballistae cap per player but for crossheal nerf and in this discussion ballgroups defend and want to reinstate only crosshealing.
Soloplayers didn’t wanted the changes they are suffering from.
Why would a solo player want a target cap for dmg aoes when as one target he is hit anyway and why would he limit Siege you can set to one so it needs multiple players to setup 3 oils at oilerspot?
You want pugs to be able to dump unlimited siege with no caps while at the same time making it so groups can’t cross-heal through that damage. That’s not balance, that’s just breaking the game in the opposite direction.
Coordinated groups don’t even rely on siege — they rely on comp, execution, and crossheals. If you strip that away while letting randoms stack siege without limits, you’re not creating fairness, you’re just handing uncoordinated play a crutch that deletes the effort people put into organized group play.3 -
Iriidius✭✭✭✭✭Artisian0001 wrote: »People shouting their complaints into the void about solo play like this is a single player RPG and as if vengeance wasn't made with much smaller target caps to prioritize them, and now it's dead. Almost like I've said a thousand times, people who complain don't even know what they want or what they are complaining about.
PvP solo players can’t just play single player game because they still need other players to fight against.
Most solo players also aren’t 100% of the time alone but fight side on side with other randoms sometime.
Many solo players are willing to talk and play together with other players but don’t find a group while ballgroups are not with players outside their group.
In pug/zerg players play with other players and ESO trailer also shows zergs similar to the ones you see in Vengeance but somehow that doesn’t count as playing with others and should probably be done in singleplayergame too. Don’t tell other players PvP is intended for groups if you don‘t mean or like the zergs ZOS intended but only ballgroups.
If playing against players with randoms does not count as playing with other players than ballgroups should play trials or other content for groups of 12 on a server with no one else.0 -
Artisian0001✭✭✭MorallyBipolar wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »People shouting their complaints into the void about solo play like this is a single player RPG and as if vengeance wasn't made with much smaller target caps to prioritize them, and now it's dead. Almost like I've said a thousand times, people who complain don't even know what they want or what they are complaining about.
Smaller target caps don't benefit solo players, they benefit large groups. That's just common sense.
How is that common sense when the large groups can't heal all their group members effectively? Vengeance is made to incentivize people to stop grouping in such large amounts and branch out. That's common sense Players just refuse to strop grouping.
ESO is an MMO. People are supposed to form groups to run content. It's an MMO. Why have other players in the game at all if you think grouping in an MMO is somehow a problem?
You have read none of my previous comments and lack any form of reading comprehension if that's what you gathered from it lol2 -
Artisian0001✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »People shouting their complaints into the void about solo play like this is a single player RPG and as if vengeance wasn't made with much smaller target caps to prioritize them, and now it's dead. Almost like I've said a thousand times, people who complain don't even know what they want or what they are complaining about.
Smaller target caps don't benefit solo players, they benefit large groups. That's just common sense.
How is that common sense when the large groups can't heal all their group members effectively? Vengeance is made to incentivize people to stop grouping in such large amounts and branch out. That's common sense Players just refuse to strop grouping.
They don't need to heal all their group members effectively if the players trying to damage them can't choose who they're damaging.
Heals in Vengeance are, for the most part, targeted heals or smart heals. That means you're either manually selecting low health players or the game is selecting low health players for you.
AoE Damage skills in Vengeance are simply choosing 3 players at random. There is no way to focus the low health pockets of players with AoE skills, which heavily incentivises stacking in a zerg.
The attacking solo player will spam their AoE skills and damage people at random, while the Zerg will spam AoE heals and heal only the people that need it the most.
Let's say you're in a small man trying to bomb a Zerg. Your 4 man group perfectly lines up your ultimates and skills right on top of a zerg, except you don't kill anyone because the game decided that each person in your group should damage different players in the zerg at random. The zerg spams AoE heals like the Necro corpse heal, and suddenly all the people that took damage are back up to full because only the people that needed healing were healed.
To actually incentivise solo/small man, heals should be capped and damage skills should be uncapped OR AoE damage skills should prioritize low health targets the same way that AoE heals do.
You are just lying to try to win a point. The AoE targeting on damage isn't random. I know you mainly play BGs but you can at least be truthful in what you're saying. This is why everything on the forums gets ignored when people complain, they just lie about how the game functions.2 -
Iriidius✭✭✭✭✭
Because that is target cap for allies and has opposite effect of target cap for enemiesArtisian0001 wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »People shouting their complaints into the void about solo play like this is a single player RPG and as if vengeance wasn't made with much smaller target caps to prioritize them, and now it's dead. Almost like I've said a thousand times, people who complain don't even know what they want or what they are complaining about.
Smaller target caps don't benefit solo players, they benefit large groups. That's just common sense.
How is that common sense when the large groups can't heal all their group members effectively? Vengeance is made to incentivize people to stop grouping in such large amounts and branch out. That's common sense Players just refuse to strop grouping.
While enemy damage and debuffs hitting you with NO target cap is a disadvantage for groups, hitting unlimited allies with heal/buffs is an advantage.
Advantage to group is disadvantage for solo players. Solo players profit from no offensive targetcap and a low defensive targetcap of 1.1 -
MincMincMinc✭✭✭✭✭
✭AoE caps also dont need to be a have or not have issue. Zos could very well just bake them into certain skills. Maybe jabs, a common spammable, only hits the target and closest 2 enemies. Where as a high cost aoe stun might hit 6. Perhaps ultimates are not limited at all since they are limited by ult cost and supposed to be impactful and defining.
Doing selective rules is possible when we have pve and pvp split. They could easily be doing live tests in tandem with vengeance trying to implement these rules on pvp copies of live skills.Edited by MincMincMinc on 26 September 2025 17:17Zos should hire pvp consultants1 -
Artisian0001✭✭✭
Because that is target cap for allies and has opposite effect of target cap for enemiesArtisian0001 wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »People shouting their complaints into the void about solo play like this is a single player RPG and as if vengeance wasn't made with much smaller target caps to prioritize them, and now it's dead. Almost like I've said a thousand times, people who complain don't even know what they want or what they are complaining about.
Smaller target caps don't benefit solo players, they benefit large groups. That's just common sense.
How is that common sense when the large groups can't heal all their group members effectively? Vengeance is made to incentivize people to stop grouping in such large amounts and branch out. That's common sense Players just refuse to strop grouping.
While enemy damage and debuffs hitting you with NO target cap is a disadvantage for groups, hitting unlimited allies with heal/buffs is an advantage.
Advantage to group is disadvantage for solo players. Solo players profit from no offensive targetcap and a low defensive targetcap of 1.
It doesn't have the opposite effect. Jesus what is with people on the forum literally just making things up lol Damage caps, so does healing. If healing can only effect 3 players and damage can also only effect 3 players, how is that "hitting unlimited allies with heal/buffs" the heals and damage have the same cap, what are you even saying. In addition to this, the trade off is 1:1. You have caps on damage and on healing. The difference is the size is 3 so they are obviously trying to make it more appealing to smaller groups, but people still group regardless. Try to make sense in your next response please
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RaidingTraiding✭✭✭Artisian0001 wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »People shouting their complaints into the void about solo play like this is a single player RPG and as if vengeance wasn't made with much smaller target caps to prioritize them, and now it's dead. Almost like I've said a thousand times, people who complain don't even know what they want or what they are complaining about.
Smaller target caps don't benefit solo players, they benefit large groups. That's just common sense.
How is that common sense when the large groups can't heal all their group members effectively? Vengeance is made to incentivize people to stop grouping in such large amounts and branch out. That's common sense Players just refuse to strop grouping.
They don't need to heal all their group members effectively if the players trying to damage them can't choose who they're damaging.
Heals in Vengeance are, for the most part, targeted heals or smart heals. That means you're either manually selecting low health players or the game is selecting low health players for you.
AoE Damage skills in Vengeance are simply choosing 3 players at random. There is no way to focus the low health pockets of players with AoE skills, which heavily incentivises stacking in a zerg.
The attacking solo player will spam their AoE skills and damage people at random, while the Zerg will spam AoE heals and heal only the people that need it the most.
Let's say you're in a small man trying to bomb a Zerg. Your 4 man group perfectly lines up your ultimates and skills right on top of a zerg, except you don't kill anyone because the game decided that each person in your group should damage different players in the zerg at random. The zerg spams AoE heals like the Necro corpse heal, and suddenly all the people that took damage are back up to full because only the people that needed healing were healed.
To actually incentivise solo/small man, heals should be capped and damage skills should be uncapped OR AoE damage skills should prioritize low health targets the same way that AoE heals do.
You are just lying to try to win a point. The AoE targeting on damage isn't random. I know you mainly play BGs but you can at least be truthful in what you're saying. This is why everything on the forums gets ignored when people complain, they just lie about how the game functions.
Who's lying here? That's exactly how it works. This is one of the main gripes with vengeance and why it is so zerg friendly. You can coordinate aoe ult dumps with a group but you hardly kill anyone because of this very reason. Everyone else hits different targets, even your skills hit different targets, then they just heal up. It's completely useless against zergs. How can you burst down targets if most targets are immune to a lot of your damage because of caps?5 -
acastanza_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭acastanza_ESO wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »Primetime on PC NA: Three bars of EP to nothing else. EP at 2-3x AD or DC (combined) pop.
The campaign has zero functional ability to counter superior numbers, so faction stacking every keep always wins.
Then literally gate camping the campaign to death when there's nothing else left.
This has to be the most embarrassing gameplay I've ever seen and it is direct result of Vengeance being an unmitigated failure of game balance.
Speedrunning the Ravenwatch death spiral. GG.
To be fair, it would be exactly the same on live. Sure, a duo would be able to troll around a tower against some random pugs but if fifty people showed up with concerted effort, they'd still be run right over. Keep defenses or offenses would be impossible as well. We had exactly this situation when New World came out for something like, three months IIRC.
Nah. This is exactly the situation that a ballgroup would be able to break on live.acastanza_ESO wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »infinite resource heal stacking meta
That doesn't describe Vengeance at all. If you could stack heals in a group you could at least try to coordinate fight back against a zerg.
If you could stack heals than the zerg would do that too and fighting back be even harder.
Absence of healstacking and ballgroups is one of the main reasons many players play Vengeance and reintroducing them a way to destroy Vengeance. A ballgroup dominating the map is even worse than a zerg and make the game unfun for anyone else.
Of course ballgroups are pretending again to be the only zergcounter when they are just a more organized zerg themself and ask for biggest number advantage crosshealing first.
Ballgroups don’t help outnumbered faction to not get zergend but create the zerg they fight themself because thanks to healstacking only a big zerg (or other ballgroups) can kill a ballgroup and they farm smaller numbers in home keep until enaugh people arrive to be such a zerg.
What we really need is a way for solo players to kill players in zerg. We need the option for players to setup multiple siege and ballistae to be as effective as coldfire and a way for bombers to do 70k burst against nonblocking players(best without AOE cap but if you can bomb 3 players that’s still good).
Pretty much everything you've said here is complete uninformed nonsense.
"Absence of healstacking and ballgroups is one of the main reasons many players play Vengeance"
WHAT PLAYERS?! This campaign is dead. It was killed by there being no way for a small group to fight back against the zerg.
"Of course ballgroups are pretending again to be the only zergcounter when they are just a more organized zerg themself"
Tell me you don't understand what a ballgroup is without telling me you don't understand what a ballgroup is. 12 players, is NOT a zerg. On live, this game has exponential power scaling though coordination that allows you, a group of 12, to, through coordination and skilled gameplay, take on ~3x your numbers (3x, or ~30 players is about the maximum of what a ballgroup can "win" against given good enemy siege, more than that you can survive to farm, but are not likely to actually win the fight).
This is a CORE part of game balance! There is absolutely nothing else that would enable a smaller group to contest a larger uncoordinated zerg. And the counter to the ballgroup here is a smaller coordinated group within the zerg disrupting the ballgroup. This is a game of counters, and Vengeance is fundamentally broken by lacking them.
3 -
Artisian0001✭✭✭RaidingTraiding wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »People shouting their complaints into the void about solo play like this is a single player RPG and as if vengeance wasn't made with much smaller target caps to prioritize them, and now it's dead. Almost like I've said a thousand times, people who complain don't even know what they want or what they are complaining about.
Smaller target caps don't benefit solo players, they benefit large groups. That's just common sense.
How is that common sense when the large groups can't heal all their group members effectively? Vengeance is made to incentivize people to stop grouping in such large amounts and branch out. That's common sense Players just refuse to strop grouping.
They don't need to heal all their group members effectively if the players trying to damage them can't choose who they're damaging.
Heals in Vengeance are, for the most part, targeted heals or smart heals. That means you're either manually selecting low health players or the game is selecting low health players for you.
AoE Damage skills in Vengeance are simply choosing 3 players at random. There is no way to focus the low health pockets of players with AoE skills, which heavily incentivises stacking in a zerg.
The attacking solo player will spam their AoE skills and damage people at random, while the Zerg will spam AoE heals and heal only the people that need it the most.
Let's say you're in a small man trying to bomb a Zerg. Your 4 man group perfectly lines up your ultimates and skills right on top of a zerg, except you don't kill anyone because the game decided that each person in your group should damage different players in the zerg at random. The zerg spams AoE heals like the Necro corpse heal, and suddenly all the people that took damage are back up to full because only the people that needed healing were healed.
To actually incentivise solo/small man, heals should be capped and damage skills should be uncapped OR AoE damage skills should prioritize low health targets the same way that AoE heals do.
You are just lying to try to win a point. The AoE targeting on damage isn't random. I know you mainly play BGs but you can at least be truthful in what you're saying. This is why everything on the forums gets ignored when people complain, they just lie about how the game functions.
Who's lying here? That's exactly how it works. This is one of the main gripes with vengeance and why it is so zerg friendly. You can coordinate aoe ult dumps with a group but you hardly kill anyone because of this very reason. Everyone else hits different targets, even your skills hit different targets, then they just heal up. It's completely useless against zergs. How can you burst down targets if most targets are immune to a lot of your damage because of caps?
If you think AoE targeting is random you just don't care to know how the game works. Calling it random is just uninformed and unskilled. Learn the game.0 -
acastanza_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
How? I mean mechanically, sepcifically, how do you think a small uncordinated group should be able to beat a large uncordinated zerg? Give me a precise answer.xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Solos/pugs need to be able to break these situations or the game dies, as Live has proved.acastanza_ESO wrote: »This is exactly the situation that a ballgroup would be able to break on live.
Spoiler; they can't! It's fundamentally impossible. The only thing that actually works is for coordination to provide mechanical benefits that allow you to fight outnumbered. That is all a ballgroup is.
Now we can quibble about the correct power level, is 3x reasonable (the current level)? 2x? 4x? But the fact of the matter is that there is absolutely zero way in the Vengeance slapfight to win any unbalanced fight.2 -
Iriidius✭✭✭✭✭Artisian0001 wrote: »
Because that is target cap for allies and has opposite effect of target cap for enemiesArtisian0001 wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »People shouting their complaints into the void about solo play like this is a single player RPG and as if vengeance wasn't made with much smaller target caps to prioritize them, and now it's dead. Almost like I've said a thousand times, people who complain don't even know what they want or what they are complaining about.
Smaller target caps don't benefit solo players, they benefit large groups. That's just common sense.
How is that common sense when the large groups can't heal all their group members effectively? Vengeance is made to incentivize people to stop grouping in such large amounts and branch out. That's common sense Players just refuse to strop grouping.
While enemy damage and debuffs hitting you with NO target cap is a disadvantage for groups, hitting unlimited allies with heal/buffs is an advantage.
Advantage to group is disadvantage for solo players. Solo players profit from no offensive targetcap and a low defensive targetcap of 1.
It doesn't have the opposite effect. Jesus what is with people on the forum literally just making things up lol Damage caps, so does healing. If healing can only effect 3 players and damage can also only effect 3 players, how is that "hitting unlimited allies with heal/buffs" the heals and damage have the same cap, what are you even saying. In addition to this, the trade off is 1:1. You have caps on damage and on healing. The difference is the size is 3 so they are obviously trying to make it more appealing to smaller groups, but people still group regardless. Try to make sense in your next response please
The opposite effect I was talking about is that cap to aoe heals and buffs hurts groups and cap to incoming dmg and debuff helps them not whatever you interpreted it to mean.
It makes no sense to you because you twist it to make no sense than complain it makes no sense.1 -
Artisian0001✭✭✭acastanza_ESO wrote: »
How? I mean mechanically, sepcifically, how do you think a small uncordinated group should be able to beat a large uncordinated zerg? Give me a precise answer.xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Solos/pugs need to be able to break these situations or the game dies, as Live has proved.acastanza_ESO wrote: »This is exactly the situation that a ballgroup would be able to break on live.
Spoiler; they can't! It's fundamentally impossible. The only thing that actually works is for coordination to provide mechanical benefits that allow you to fight outnumbered. That is all a ballgroup is.
Now we can quibble about the correct power level, is 3x reasonable (the current level)? 2x? 4x? But the fact of the matter is that there is absolutely zero way in the Vengeance slapfight to win any unbalanced fight.
I've been asking this the entire time, people just want to be able to kill everyone at any time and come crying on the forums when they aren't able to instakill a 45k hp ballgroup player lol0 -
React✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Artisian0001 wrote: »RaidingTraiding wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »People shouting their complaints into the void about solo play like this is a single player RPG and as if vengeance wasn't made with much smaller target caps to prioritize them, and now it's dead. Almost like I've said a thousand times, people who complain don't even know what they want or what they are complaining about.
Smaller target caps don't benefit solo players, they benefit large groups. That's just common sense.
How is that common sense when the large groups can't heal all their group members effectively? Vengeance is made to incentivize people to stop grouping in such large amounts and branch out. That's common sense Players just refuse to strop grouping.
They don't need to heal all their group members effectively if the players trying to damage them can't choose who they're damaging.
Heals in Vengeance are, for the most part, targeted heals or smart heals. That means you're either manually selecting low health players or the game is selecting low health players for you.
AoE Damage skills in Vengeance are simply choosing 3 players at random. There is no way to focus the low health pockets of players with AoE skills, which heavily incentivises stacking in a zerg.
The attacking solo player will spam their AoE skills and damage people at random, while the Zerg will spam AoE heals and heal only the people that need it the most.
Let's say you're in a small man trying to bomb a Zerg. Your 4 man group perfectly lines up your ultimates and skills right on top of a zerg, except you don't kill anyone because the game decided that each person in your group should damage different players in the zerg at random. The zerg spams AoE heals like the Necro corpse heal, and suddenly all the people that took damage are back up to full because only the people that needed healing were healed.
To actually incentivise solo/small man, heals should be capped and damage skills should be uncapped OR AoE damage skills should prioritize low health targets the same way that AoE heals do.
You are just lying to try to win a point. The AoE targeting on damage isn't random. I know you mainly play BGs but you can at least be truthful in what you're saying. This is why everything on the forums gets ignored when people complain, they just lie about how the game functions.
Who's lying here? That's exactly how it works. This is one of the main gripes with vengeance and why it is so zerg friendly. You can coordinate aoe ult dumps with a group but you hardly kill anyone because of this very reason. Everyone else hits different targets, even your skills hit different targets, then they just heal up. It's completely useless against zergs. How can you burst down targets if most targets are immune to a lot of your damage because of caps?
If you think AoE targeting is random you just don't care to know how the game works. Calling it random is just uninformed and unskilled. Learn the game.
Could you explain to us uninformed and unskilled players exactly how the AOE damage targetting works in vengenace, perhaps? For example, if I cast vengeance wall of elements into a group of 6 people. Which 3 people are going to get hit?@ReactSlower - PC/NA - 2000+ CP
React Faster - XB/NA - 1500+ CP
ContentTwitch.tv/reactfaster
Youtube.com/@ReactFaster3 -
Artisian0001✭✭✭Artisian0001 wrote: »
Because that is target cap for allies and has opposite effect of target cap for enemiesArtisian0001 wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »People shouting their complaints into the void about solo play like this is a single player RPG and as if vengeance wasn't made with much smaller target caps to prioritize them, and now it's dead. Almost like I've said a thousand times, people who complain don't even know what they want or what they are complaining about.
Smaller target caps don't benefit solo players, they benefit large groups. That's just common sense.
How is that common sense when the large groups can't heal all their group members effectively? Vengeance is made to incentivize people to stop grouping in such large amounts and branch out. That's common sense Players just refuse to strop grouping.
While enemy damage and debuffs hitting you with NO target cap is a disadvantage for groups, hitting unlimited allies with heal/buffs is an advantage.
Advantage to group is disadvantage for solo players. Solo players profit from no offensive targetcap and a low defensive targetcap of 1.
It doesn't have the opposite effect. Jesus what is with people on the forum literally just making things up lol Damage caps, so does healing. If healing can only effect 3 players and damage can also only effect 3 players, how is that "hitting unlimited allies with heal/buffs" the heals and damage have the same cap, what are you even saying. In addition to this, the trade off is 1:1. You have caps on damage and on healing. The difference is the size is 3 so they are obviously trying to make it more appealing to smaller groups, but people still group regardless. Try to make sense in your next response please
The opposite effect I was talking about is that cap to aoe heals and buffs hurts groups and cap to incoming dmg and debuff helps them not whatever you interpreted it to mean.
It makes no sense to you because you twist it to make no sense than complain it makes no sense.
I don't know if your English just isn't great but even what you just said doesn't make grammatical sense so I don't know how you expect me to parse something like this when it's written both incorrectly and void of any logic. You just said "cap to aoe heals and buffs hurts groups and cap to incoming dmg and debuff helps them not whatever you interpreted it to mean." Please read the comments you are responding to before you respond, you make yourself look silly. Yes, the heals hitting only 3 people hurts groups, we agree, the damage hitting only 3 of their members helps them, sure. But like I just said which you literally quoted yourself, the trade off is 1:1. If they are hurt and helped at the same coefficient how is this more helpful to ballgrouns, can you explain that in any logical way whatsoever?
No you can't. In addition, the target caps incentivize people to stay in smaller groups, it's just the any large number of players is going to benefit from larger numbers. It's almost as if you guys want there to be bigger target caps, and sets that blow up groups, and scaling with more damage, aka real cyro and not vengeance, except you at the same time want to single target them down, which is what vengeance is more focused on. Pick one.0 -
MincMincMinc✭✭✭✭✭
✭Wheeler during the last livestream already said that the vengeance 5 test is planned to change aoe caps to test whether higher damage aoe caps vs lower healing caps will alleviate this group stacking issue. Depending on how the cap changes affect performance they are planning on changing the tooltips so damage is higher if needed or so heals cost more than damage skills.
It's not to hard to test how damage works, just go to any resource and cast an aoe on the flag guards. Repeat two or three times to see how the cap works. Either its random, or it will hit the closest 3, or something stupid like it will hit the first 3 alphabetically or ping wise. You would hope for the sake of testing they would not be putting an aoe cap of 3 just do do positional checks on 10 or 20 enemies to figure out who is the closest.Edited by MincMincMinc on 26 September 2025 18:25Zos should hire pvp consultants2 -
Iriidius✭✭✭✭✭TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »
That's just stacking heals to stall out a fight without killing anyone, like the ball groups on Live, and what the large raid guilds on Vengeance are doing. Their raw numbers flip flags, as opposed to a ball group circling the roof for 40 minutes.acastanza_ESO wrote: »If you could stack heals in a group you could at least try to coordinate fight back against a zerg.
What any large scale PvP needs is for solos/casuals/zergs to be able to put out enough damage to win outnumbered, without the need for the outside-game logistics and hard structure demanded by running in comp groups. This could potentially be accomplished by say, removing offensive AoE caps and restoring the lingering ground AoE on Meatbags.
Your point is lacking any real logical sense. You do this on every thread where you complain about the same things over and over and nothing is ever done to nerf it but you don't really ever take it as a sign. You want people to be able to kill COORDINATED GROUPS, while the lesser groups that aren't a ball group are NOT COORDINATED and also HAVE LESS PEOPOLE. Skills and sets like this already exist to benefit players when they are out numbered. There is no way to make smaller groups able to consistently kill bigger more coordinated groups without breaking the game entirely.
I mean just think of it, it doesn't make sense. Smaller groups can already beat better groups that are stacking heals if the player number isn't extremely significant. If the player number is extremely significant ex. 4v12, and the skill level of the players is similar, it would make zero sense for the 4 to consistently be able to beat the 12. When I go out with my group and I engage groups much bigger than ours, where the players are also skilled, we are aware we are not supposed to win every single engage, that's just what happens.
If you nerf heals or cross heals to a certain number, all you are doing is making that cap the next "ballgroup" number. Groups used to go up to 24 and were much worse, both on the server and for the health of the game's balance. A 12 man group isn't even that bad. Groups of 24 pugs should be able to deal with it unless they are just not great at the game, and guess what, if they aren't great they shouldn't win.
There isn't a logical proposal ever brought up when you engage on this topic, and you do it daily, for hours on end.
In addition, only bad ballgroups just heal stack and don't do anything. My group consistently fights and kills the biggest and best ballgroups in the game. Ballgroups always fight each other and one usually ends up winning. Stalling and perma fighting only happens with zergs who sit there and res each other over and over, which creates more lag than any ballgroup ever will, and no ballgroup ever complains about that lack of balance because guess what, it's just what happens where there are too many people. People aren't asking for ressing to be nerfed so it can't continue the way it does , but that is way healthier for the game than anything else proposed.
Nothing is ever done because devs don’t play PvP against ballgroups and ballgroups lobby against any nerfs successfully and make all other playstiles quit until they are only ones left(also in forum).
Noone is asking for smaller group to beat a larger more coordinated group consistently but there should be a way to do it at all.
If you trade blows with a larger group you loose even if they don’t have crosshealing but if you catch and burst them offguard or oil them they shouldn’t get saved by shared effects when otherwise they would have died.
IRL beeing in a larger group doesn’t protect you from lethal dmg but having larger number is still a usually decisive advantage in fights.xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Solos/pugs need to be able to break these situations or the game dies, as Live has proved.acastanza_ESO wrote: »This is exactly the situation that a ballgroup would be able to break on live.
No, an uncoordinated group should not be able to consistently beat or even seriously disrupt a coordinated larger force. That makes absolutely zero logical sense.
A small coordinated group, however, especially when fighting within a zerg, absolutely can disrupt and even kill 12-man ball groups if they build and coordinate properly. But explain to me how it makes any sense for a random pug running their solo YouTube build to deal lethal damage on their own to a group that has spent far more time and effort min-maxing comps, perfecting roles, and drilling execution specifically to have a competitive advantage.
That’s like saying a thousand untrained peasants should be able to consistently beat a hundred trained marines just because of sheer numbers. Use your brain — preparation, coordination, and skill are supposed to matter.
I already said I don’t ask to consistently beat a larger group but just for a way to kill them.
That a smaller ballgroup can beat a larger ballgroup with help of a zerg is no option or help for non-members of ballgroups.
The marines should have the skills to avoid getting mortally wounded but not survive getting shot in the chest many times without bulletproof vest than kill the peasant by a glancing shot scratching his finger.
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TheAwesomeChimpanzee✭✭✭✭TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »
That's just stacking heals to stall out a fight without killing anyone, like the ball groups on Live, and what the large raid guilds on Vengeance are doing. Their raw numbers flip flags, as opposed to a ball group circling the roof for 40 minutes.acastanza_ESO wrote: »If you could stack heals in a group you could at least try to coordinate fight back against a zerg.
What any large scale PvP needs is for solos/casuals/zergs to be able to put out enough damage to win outnumbered, without the need for the outside-game logistics and hard structure demanded by running in comp groups. This could potentially be accomplished by say, removing offensive AoE caps and restoring the lingering ground AoE on Meatbags.
Your point is lacking any real logical sense. You do this on every thread where you complain about the same things over and over and nothing is ever done to nerf it but you don't really ever take it as a sign. You want people to be able to kill COORDINATED GROUPS, while the lesser groups that aren't a ball group are NOT COORDINATED and also HAVE LESS PEOPOLE. Skills and sets like this already exist to benefit players when they are out numbered. There is no way to make smaller groups able to consistently kill bigger more coordinated groups without breaking the game entirely.
I mean just think of it, it doesn't make sense. Smaller groups can already beat better groups that are stacking heals if the player number isn't extremely significant. If the player number is extremely significant ex. 4v12, and the skill level of the players is similar, it would make zero sense for the 4 to consistently be able to beat the 12. When I go out with my group and I engage groups much bigger than ours, where the players are also skilled, we are aware we are not supposed to win every single engage, that's just what happens.
If you nerf heals or cross heals to a certain number, all you are doing is making that cap the next "ballgroup" number. Groups used to go up to 24 and were much worse, both on the server and for the health of the game's balance. A 12 man group isn't even that bad. Groups of 24 pugs should be able to deal with it unless they are just not great at the game, and guess what, if they aren't great they shouldn't win.
There isn't a logical proposal ever brought up when you engage on this topic, and you do it daily, for hours on end.
In addition, only bad ballgroups just heal stack and don't do anything. My group consistently fights and kills the biggest and best ballgroups in the game. Ballgroups always fight each other and one usually ends up winning. Stalling and perma fighting only happens with zergs who sit there and res each other over and over, which creates more lag than any ballgroup ever will, and no ballgroup ever complains about that lack of balance because guess what, it's just what happens where there are too many people. People aren't asking for ressing to be nerfed so it can't continue the way it does , but that is way healthier for the game than anything else proposed.
Nothing is ever done because devs don’t play PvP against ballgroups and ballgroups lobby against any nerfs successfully and make all other playstiles quit until they are only ones left(also in forum).
Noone is asking for smaller group to beat a larger more coordinated group consistently but there should be a way to do it at all.
If you trade blows with a larger group you loose even if they don’t have crosshealing but if you catch and burst them offguard or oil them they shouldn’t get saved by shared effects when otherwise they would have died.
IRL beeing in a larger group doesn’t protect you from lethal dmg but having larger number is still a usually decisive advantage in fights.xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Solos/pugs need to be able to break these situations or the game dies, as Live has proved.acastanza_ESO wrote: »This is exactly the situation that a ballgroup would be able to break on live.
No, an uncoordinated group should not be able to consistently beat or even seriously disrupt a coordinated larger force. That makes absolutely zero logical sense.
A small coordinated group, however, especially when fighting within a zerg, absolutely can disrupt and even kill 12-man ball groups if they build and coordinate properly. But explain to me how it makes any sense for a random pug running their solo YouTube build to deal lethal damage on their own to a group that has spent far more time and effort min-maxing comps, perfecting roles, and drilling execution specifically to have a competitive advantage.
That’s like saying a thousand untrained peasants should be able to consistently beat a hundred trained marines just because of sheer numbers. Use your brain — preparation, coordination, and skill are supposed to matter.
I already said I don’t ask to consistently beat a larger group but just for a way to kill them.
That a smaller ballgroup can beat a larger ballgroup with help of a zerg is no option or help for non-members of ballgroups.
The marines should have the skills to avoid getting mortally wounded but not survive getting shot in the chest many times without bulletproof vest than kill the peasant by a glancing shot scratching his finger.
You took that parallel way too literally. The point wasn’t to run a military sim, it was dumbed down so even people like you could understand: coordination and skill matter, and they carry far more weight than anything a single pug can put out.
And let’s not pretend solos contribute nothing — you do contribute against a ball group, you just don’t feel it because it’s minimal. Why? Because you didn’t put in the same time, effort, and coordination that the ball group invests into min-maxing comps and perfecting execution. That’s the difference.1 -
Sluggy✭✭✭✭✭
✭acastanza_ESO wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »Primetime on PC NA: Three bars of EP to nothing else. EP at 2-3x AD or DC (combined) pop.
The campaign has zero functional ability to counter superior numbers, so faction stacking every keep always wins.
Then literally gate camping the campaign to death when there's nothing else left.
This has to be the most embarrassing gameplay I've ever seen and it is direct result of Vengeance being an unmitigated failure of game balance.
Speedrunning the Ravenwatch death spiral. GG.
To be fair, it would be exactly the same on live. Sure, a duo would be able to troll around a tower against some random pugs but if fifty people showed up with concerted effort, they'd still be run right over. Keep defenses or offenses would be impossible as well. We had exactly this situation when New World came out for something like, three months IIRC.
Nah. This is exactly the situation that a ballgroup would be able to break on live.
Break? Or LoS, run away from, and heal stack to stall the inevitable for thirty minutes or so?2 -
acastanza_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭acastanza_ESO wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »Primetime on PC NA: Three bars of EP to nothing else. EP at 2-3x AD or DC (combined) pop.
The campaign has zero functional ability to counter superior numbers, so faction stacking every keep always wins.
Then literally gate camping the campaign to death when there's nothing else left.
This has to be the most embarrassing gameplay I've ever seen and it is direct result of Vengeance being an unmitigated failure of game balance.
Speedrunning the Ravenwatch death spiral. GG.
To be fair, it would be exactly the same on live. Sure, a duo would be able to troll around a tower against some random pugs but if fifty people showed up with concerted effort, they'd still be run right over. Keep defenses or offenses would be impossible as well. We had exactly this situation when New World came out for something like, three months IIRC.
Nah. This is exactly the situation that a ballgroup would be able to break on live.
Break? Or LoS, run away from, and heal stack to stall the inevitable for thirty minutes or so?
Break.
The problem is that EP was massively zerg pushing AD and DC gates and gate camping with overwhelming numbers that would not unstack and responded with force to literally anything lighting. This literally killed the campaign because there wasn't anything anyone could do about it. There were zero mechanical counters to the toxic behavior. incentivizing exactly that "winning" toxic behavior.
A ballgroup that they can't kill, but absolutely could take keeps/scrolls and force that zerg onto the defensive could've pulled EP anywhere else allowing the less coordinated groups to actually fight back against the people that were left and break the gate camp.
If you can't see that then you're part of the problem.Edited by acastanza_ESO on 26 September 2025 19:191 -
Sluggy✭✭✭✭✭
✭acastanza_ESO wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »Primetime on PC NA: Three bars of EP to nothing else. EP at 2-3x AD or DC (combined) pop.
The campaign has zero functional ability to counter superior numbers, so faction stacking every keep always wins.
Then literally gate camping the campaign to death when there's nothing else left.
This has to be the most embarrassing gameplay I've ever seen and it is direct result of Vengeance being an unmitigated failure of game balance.
Speedrunning the Ravenwatch death spiral. GG.
To be fair, it would be exactly the same on live. Sure, a duo would be able to troll around a tower against some random pugs but if fifty people showed up with concerted effort, they'd still be run right over. Keep defenses or offenses would be impossible as well. We had exactly this situation when New World came out for something like, three months IIRC.
Nah. This is exactly the situation that a ballgroup would be able to break on live.
Break? Or LoS, run away from, and heal stack to stall the inevitable for thirty minutes or so?
Break.
The problem is that EP was massively zerg pushing AD and DC gates and gate camping with overwhelming numbers that would not unstack and responded with force to literally anything lighting. This literally killed the campaign because there wasn't anything anyone could do about it. There were zero mechanical counters to the toxic behavior. incentivizing exactly that "winning" toxic behavior.
A ballgroup that they can't kill, but absolutely could take keeps/scrolls and force that zerg onto the defensive could've pulled EP anywhere else allowing the less coordinated groups to actually fight back against the people that were left and break the gate camp.
If you can't see that then you're part of the problem.
That all requires more mechanics in play than just a ballgroup. And if those mechanics *were* in play you wouldn't need a ballgroup to do it. As it is, you can ballgroup on Vengeance as is and still do pretty well - assuming your only incentive is to collect AP, which is the only campaign mechanic in play currently.1 -
acastanza_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭acastanza_ESO wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »Primetime on PC NA: Three bars of EP to nothing else. EP at 2-3x AD or DC (combined) pop.
The campaign has zero functional ability to counter superior numbers, so faction stacking every keep always wins.
Then literally gate camping the campaign to death when there's nothing else left.
This has to be the most embarrassing gameplay I've ever seen and it is direct result of Vengeance being an unmitigated failure of game balance.
Speedrunning the Ravenwatch death spiral. GG.
To be fair, it would be exactly the same on live. Sure, a duo would be able to troll around a tower against some random pugs but if fifty people showed up with concerted effort, they'd still be run right over. Keep defenses or offenses would be impossible as well. We had exactly this situation when New World came out for something like, three months IIRC.
Nah. This is exactly the situation that a ballgroup would be able to break on live.
Break? Or LoS, run away from, and heal stack to stall the inevitable for thirty minutes or so?
Break.
The problem is that EP was massively zerg pushing AD and DC gates and gate camping with overwhelming numbers that would not unstack and responded with force to literally anything lighting. This literally killed the campaign because there wasn't anything anyone could do about it. There were zero mechanical counters to the toxic behavior. incentivizing exactly that "winning" toxic behavior.
A ballgroup that they can't kill, but absolutely could take keeps/scrolls and force that zerg onto the defensive could've pulled EP anywhere else allowing the less coordinated groups to actually fight back against the people that were left and break the gate camp.
If you can't see that then you're part of the problem.
That all requires more mechanics in play than just a ballgroup. And if those mechanics *were* in play you wouldn't need a ballgroup to do it. As it is, you can ballgroup on Vengeance as is and still do pretty well - assuming your only incentive is to collect AP, which is the only campaign mechanic in play currently.
"ballgroup on Vengeance as is and still do pretty well" LMAO
This is abject nonsense, you CAN NOT ballgroup in Vengeance and you saying that proves to me you don't actually have even the faintest idea what a ballgroup is, does, or how it works, at all.6
