Vengeance is Dead.

acastanza_ESO · September 25

Primetime on PC NA: Three bars of EP to nothing else. EP at 2-3x AD or DC (combined) pop.
The campaign has zero functional ability to counter superior numbers, so faction stacking every keep always wins.

Then literally gate camping the campaign to death when there's nothing else left.

This has to be the most embarrassing gameplay I've ever seen and it is direct result of Vengeance being an unmitigated failure of game balance.

Speedrunning the Ravenwatch death spiral. GG.

iGuavaTH · September 25

As a DC on PSEU playing on SEA time I have tried to join every day, but no use. Map is all red, no bars, maybe 2 other DC players on.

The timing of this test is really bad.

aetherix8 · September 25

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Primetime on PC NA: Three bars of EP to nothing else. EP at 2-3x AD or DC (combined) pop.
The campaign has zero functional ability to counter superior numbers, so faction stacking every keep always wins.

Then literally gate camping the campaign to death when there's nothing else left.

This has to be the most embarrassing gameplay I've ever seen and it is direct result of Vengeance being an unmitigated failure of game balance.

Speedrunning the Ravenwatch death spiral. GG.

I agree with the most embarrassing gameplay; how any faction can be proud of (and persisting in) megazerging the map to its death is beyond my comprehension.

I think it is because of the unmitigated population imbalance. With Vengeance's increased population caps, one faction having 3 bars while the other two stand at 1 bar each is a much bigger problem than in the current Cyro. ZOS should implement dynamic queue locks, where no one can join a faction with 2 or 3 bars until the other two factions get there as well. Low pop bonus doesn't solve this issue.

Daniel5770 · September 25

Is dead cause everyone is EP . Lol

AngryPenguin · September 25

aetherix8 wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Primetime on PC NA: Three bars of EP to nothing else. EP at 2-3x AD or DC (combined) pop.
The campaign has zero functional ability to counter superior numbers, so faction stacking every keep always wins.

Then literally gate camping the campaign to death when there's nothing else left.

This has to be the most embarrassing gameplay I've ever seen and it is direct result of Vengeance being an unmitigated failure of game balance.

Speedrunning the Ravenwatch death spiral. GG.

I agree with the most embarrassing gameplay; how any faction can be proud of (and persisting in) megazerging the map to its death is beyond my comprehension.

I think it is because of the unmitigated population imbalance. With Vengeance's increased population caps, one faction having 3 bars while the other two stand at 1 bar each is a much bigger problem than in the current Cyro. ZOS should implement dynamic queue locks, where no one can join a faction with 2 or 3 bars until the other two factions get there as well. Low pop bonus doesn't solve this issue.

The solution is to stop investing in vengeance and invest in fixing the Cyrodiil we log into play. You know, like ZOS has always said they were doing up until they threw vengeance against the wall to see if it stuck.

MincMincMinc · September 25

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Primetime on PC NA: Three bars of EP to nothing else. EP at 2-3x AD or DC (combined) pop.
The campaign has zero functional ability to counter superior numbers, so faction stacking every keep always wins.

Then literally gate camping the campaign to death when there's nothing else left.

This has to be the most embarrassing gameplay I've ever seen and it is direct result of Vengeance being an unmitigated failure of game balance.

Speedrunning the Ravenwatch death spiral. GG.

Cyrodil itself needs basic rule changes like how the winning faction gets stat boosts to help them hold the entire map while also just having to defend keeps. IMO taking enemy keeps should give you AP bonuses, while losing keeps should give you stat bonuses.

It was only designed to be pop locked equally at all times. The rules of cyrodil never were designed to account for what happens when one faction has less pop or if two factions have less pop. Guild combat exacerbates this where all it takes is one guild like army of the pact to run when no other guilds are online. Pugs alone will tend to just log out if they lose too much ground or when an emp comes to power. So you inevitably end up with one coordinated guild group grabbing emp and then fighting two factions that half logged out. 1v2 should balance out the map right.....but in reality it always turns into a 1v 0.5+0.5...........Except the 1 gets stat and emp bonuses so its really like 1.5 v 0.5+0.5

This pop imbalance was directly why the PCNA u50 and nocp campaigns would die out. Typically from the AD guilds day after day flipping the map as they were the last guild groups running on the servers.

xylena_lazarow · September 25

Sad to see them waste all that initial hype on 6mo of occasional tests while pushing the same hated infinite resource heal stacking meta that drives players away from Live. Now we have 2 dead PvP modes.

JustLovely · September 25

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Sad to see them waste all that initial hype on 6mo of occasional tests while pushing the same hated infinite resource heal stacking meta that drives players away from Live. Now we have 2 dead PvP modes.

Just like we knew vengeance would always be; a dead end.

acastanza_ESO · September 25

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

infinite resource heal stacking meta

That doesn't describe Vengeance at all. If you could stack heals in a group you could at least try to coordinate fight back against a zerg.

Rohamad_Ali · September 25

It's not a test it's a AP farm for EP.

Artisian0001 · September 25

This is just as if not even more dead than NA no cp and when it was no proc no CP, which SO MANY people wanted, but for some reason nobody played. You HAVE TO play vengeance, there isn't even another cyro option and NA is dead way more often than it would be with normal cyro.

Just like the vocal minority that really really wanted and swore by no proc no CP, nobody shows up to this, they just vocalize it when the vast majority of the population doesn't want it.

xylena_lazarow · September 25

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

If you could stack heals in a group you could at least try to coordinate fight back against a zerg.

That's just stacking heals to stall out a fight without killing anyone, like the ball groups on Live, and what the large raid guilds on Vengeance are doing. Their raw numbers flip flags, as opposed to a ball group circling the roof for 40 minutes.

What any large scale PvP needs is for solos/casuals/zergs to be able to put out enough damage to win outnumbered, without the need for the outside-game logistics and hard structure demanded by running in comp groups. This could potentially be accomplished by say, removing offensive AoE caps and restoring the lingering ground AoE on Meatbags.

Artisian0001 · September 25

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

If you could stack heals in a group you could at least try to coordinate fight back against a zerg.

That's just stacking heals to stall out a fight without killing anyone, like the ball groups on Live, and what the large raid guilds on Vengeance are doing. Their raw numbers flip flags, as opposed to a ball group circling the roof for 40 minutes.

What any large scale PvP needs is for solos/casuals/zergs to be able to put out enough damage to win outnumbered, without the need for the outside-game logistics and hard structure demanded by running in comp groups. This could potentially be accomplished by say, removing offensive AoE caps and restoring the lingering ground AoE on Meatbags.

Your point is lacking any real logical sense. You do this on every thread where you complain about the same things over and over and nothing is ever done to nerf it but you don't really ever take it as a sign. You want people to be able to kill COORDINATED GROUPS, while the lesser groups that aren't a ball group are NOT COORDINATED and also HAVE LESS PEOPOLE. Skills and sets like this already exist to benefit players when they are out numbered. There is no way to make smaller groups able to consistently kill bigger more coordinated groups without breaking the game entirely.

I mean just think of it, it doesn't make sense. Smaller groups can already beat better groups that are stacking heals if the player number isn't extremely significant. If the player number is extremely significant ex. 4v12, and the skill level of the players is similar, it would make zero sense for the 4 to consistently be able to beat the 12. When I go out with my group and I engage groups much bigger than ours, where the players are also skilled, we are aware we are not supposed to win every single engage, that's just what happens.

If you nerf heals or cross heals to a certain number, all you are doing is making that cap the next "ballgroup" number. Groups used to go up to 24 and were much worse, both on the server and for the health of the game's balance. A 12 man group isn't even that bad. Groups of 24 pugs should be able to deal with it unless they are just not great at the game, and guess what, if they aren't great they shouldn't win.

There isn't a logical proposal ever brought up when you engage on this topic, and you do it daily, for hours on end.

In addition, only bad ballgroups just heal stack and don't do anything. My group consistently fights and kills the biggest and best ballgroups in the game. Ballgroups always fight each other and one usually ends up winning. Stalling and perma fighting only happens with zergs who sit there and res each other over and over, which creates more lag than any ballgroup ever will, and no ballgroup ever complains about that lack of balance because guess what, it's just what happens where there are too many people. People aren't asking for ressing to be nerfed so it can't continue the way it does , but that is way healthier for the game than anything else proposed.

KiltMaster · September 26

I told people that vengeance would be a novelty ... it gets boring after 10 mins when you realize it's just zerg surfing.

xylena_lazarow · September 26

Artisian0001 wrote: »

You want people to be able to kill COORDINATED GROUPS

Yeah, I do. The sad state of both Live and Vengeance are all the proof I need.

Stridig · September 26

Artisian0001 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

You want people to be able to kill COORDINATED GROUPS

Yeah, I do. The sad state of both Live and Vengeance are all the proof I need.

[snip]

This is not a valid thing to respond with. Xylena know how to PvP.
[edited to remove quote]

Sluggy · September 26

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Primetime on PC NA: Three bars of EP to nothing else. EP at 2-3x AD or DC (combined) pop.
The campaign has zero functional ability to counter superior numbers, so faction stacking every keep always wins.

Then literally gate camping the campaign to death when there's nothing else left.

This has to be the most embarrassing gameplay I've ever seen and it is direct result of Vengeance being an unmitigated failure of game balance.

Speedrunning the Ravenwatch death spiral. GG.

To be fair, it would be exactly the same on live. Sure, a duo would be able to troll around a tower against some random pugs but if fifty people showed up with concerted effort, they'd still be run right over. Keep defenses or offenses would be impossible as well. We had exactly this situation when New World came out for something like, three months IIRC.

acastanza_ESO · September 26

Sluggy wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Primetime on PC NA: Three bars of EP to nothing else. EP at 2-3x AD or DC (combined) pop.
The campaign has zero functional ability to counter superior numbers, so faction stacking every keep always wins.

Then literally gate camping the campaign to death when there's nothing else left.

This has to be the most embarrassing gameplay I've ever seen and it is direct result of Vengeance being an unmitigated failure of game balance.

Speedrunning the Ravenwatch death spiral. GG.

To be fair, it would be exactly the same on live. Sure, a duo would be able to troll around a tower against some random pugs but if fifty people showed up with concerted effort, they'd still be run right over. Keep defenses or offenses would be impossible as well. We had exactly this situation when New World came out for something like, three months IIRC.

Nah. This is exactly the situation that a ballgroup would be able to break on live.

colossalvoids · September 26

Artisian0001 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

You want people to be able to kill COORDINATED GROUPS

Yeah, I do. The sad state of both Live and Vengeance are all the proof I need.

[snip]

That's all fine and dandy but at the same time you want pvp to have devs attention and be tinkered with be it performance, new features or balance shifts, which is not happening for a mode made so unpopular in the last five years. It's either getting devs attention and attempts to revitalise the population or it's not, no one is going to do [snip] about it in its current state.
[edited to remove quote]

Artisian0001 · September 26

Stridig wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

You want people to be able to kill COORDINATED GROUPS

Yeah, I do. The sad state of both Live and Vengeance are all the proof I need.

[snip]

This is not a valid thing to respond with. Xylena know how to PvP.
[edited to remove quote]

Nope, not really.

Iriidius · September 26

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Sluggy wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Primetime on PC NA: Three bars of EP to nothing else. EP at 2-3x AD or DC (combined) pop.
The campaign has zero functional ability to counter superior numbers, so faction stacking every keep always wins.

Then literally gate camping the campaign to death when there's nothing else left.

This has to be the most embarrassing gameplay I've ever seen and it is direct result of Vengeance being an unmitigated failure of game balance.

Speedrunning the Ravenwatch death spiral. GG.

To be fair, it would be exactly the same on live. Sure, a duo would be able to troll around a tower against some random pugs but if fifty people showed up with concerted effort, they'd still be run right over. Keep defenses or offenses would be impossible as well. We had exactly this situation when New World came out for something like, three months IIRC.

Nah. This is exactly the situation that a ballgroup would be able to break on live.

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

infinite resource heal stacking meta

That doesn't describe Vengeance at all. If you could stack heals in a group you could at least try to coordinate fight back against a zerg.

If you could stack heals than the zerg would do that too and fighting back be even harder.
Absence of healstacking and ballgroups is one of the main reasons many players play Vengeance and reintroducing them a way to destroy Vengeance. A ballgroup dominating the map is even worse than a zerg and make the game unfun for anyone else.

Of course ballgroups are pretending again to be the only zergcounter when they are just a more organized zerg themself and ask for biggest number advantage crosshealing first.

Ballgroups don’t help outnumbered faction to not get zergend but create the zerg they fight themself because thanks to healstacking only a big zerg (or other ballgroups) can kill a ballgroup and they farm smaller numbers in home keep until enaugh people arrive to be such a zerg.

What we really need is a way for solo players to kill players in zerg. We need the option for players to setup multiple siege and ballistae to be as effective as coldfire and a way for bombers to do 70k burst against nonblocking players(best without AOE cap but if you can bomb 3 players that’s still good).

Artisian0001 · September 26

Iriidius wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Sluggy wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Primetime on PC NA: Three bars of EP to nothing else. EP at 2-3x AD or DC (combined) pop.
The campaign has zero functional ability to counter superior numbers, so faction stacking every keep always wins.

Then literally gate camping the campaign to death when there's nothing else left.

This has to be the most embarrassing gameplay I've ever seen and it is direct result of Vengeance being an unmitigated failure of game balance.

Speedrunning the Ravenwatch death spiral. GG.

To be fair, it would be exactly the same on live. Sure, a duo would be able to troll around a tower against some random pugs but if fifty people showed up with concerted effort, they'd still be run right over. Keep defenses or offenses would be impossible as well. We had exactly this situation when New World came out for something like, three months IIRC.

Nah. This is exactly the situation that a ballgroup would be able to break on live.

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

infinite resource heal stacking meta

That doesn't describe Vengeance at all. If you could stack heals in a group you could at least try to coordinate fight back against a zerg.

If you could stack heals than the zerg would do that too and fighting back be even harder.
Absence of healstacking and ballgroups is one of the main reasons many players play Vengeance and reintroducing them a way to destroy Vengeance. A ballgroup dominating the map is even worse than a zerg and make the game unfun for anyone else.

Of course ballgroups are pretending again to be the only zergcounter when they are just a more organized zerg themself and ask for biggest number advantage crosshealing first.

Ballgroups don’t help outnumbered faction to not get zergend but create the zerg they fight themself because thanks to healstacking only a big zerg (or other ballgroups) can kill a ballgroup and they farm smaller numbers in home keep until enaugh people arrive to be such a zerg.

What we really need is a way for solo players to kill players in zerg. We need the option for players to setup multiple siege and ballistae to be as effective as coldfire and a way for bombers to do 70k burst against nonblocking players(best without AOE cap but if you can bomb 3 players that’s still good).

People aren't even playing it anymore because it got boring to the vast majority and the same thing happens in vengeance that happens in live where large numbers of players just stack together. Ballgroups aren't the only counter to zergs but everyone makes this logical inconsistency, like you did further down, where you want players who are small in numbers to be able to deal with ballgroups but somehow ballgroup shouldn't be able to do what they do? None of that maps on.

Ballgroups don't dominate the map though unless there are multiple of them on a single faction. 99% of the time ballgroup players don't even play the map, and they can only realistically hold 1 keep by themselves.

Solo players can kill players in a zerg, there is just no way to keep that player dead because they can be rezzed infinitely with almost zero downtime.

xylena_lazarow · September 26

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

This is exactly the situation that a ballgroup would be able to break on live.

Solos/pugs need to be able to break these situations or the game dies, as Live has proved.

Iriidius · September 26

Artisian0001 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

If you could stack heals in a group you could at least try to coordinate fight back against a zerg.

That's just stacking heals to stall out a fight without killing anyone, like the ball groups on Live, and what the large raid guilds on Vengeance are doing. Their raw numbers flip flags, as opposed to a ball group circling the roof for 40 minutes.

What any large scale PvP needs is for solos/casuals/zergs to be able to put out enough damage to win outnumbered, without the need for the outside-game logistics and hard structure demanded by running in comp groups. This could potentially be accomplished by say, removing offensive AoE caps and restoring the lingering ground AoE on Meatbags.

Your point is lacking any real logical sense. You do this on every thread where you complain about the same things over and over and nothing is ever done to nerf it but you don't really ever take it as a sign. You want people to be able to kill COORDINATED GROUPS, while the lesser groups that aren't a ball group are NOT COORDINATED and also HAVE LESS PEOPOLE. Skills and sets like this already exist to benefit players when they are out numbered. There is no way to make smaller groups able to consistently kill bigger more coordinated groups without breaking the game entirely.

I mean just think of it, it doesn't make sense. Smaller groups can already beat better groups that are stacking heals if the player number isn't extremely significant. If the player number is extremely significant ex. 4v12, and the skill level of the players is similar, it would make zero sense for the 4 to consistently be able to beat the 12. When I go out with my group and I engage groups much bigger than ours, where the players are also skilled, we are aware we are not supposed to win every single engage, that's just what happens.

If you nerf heals or cross heals to a certain number, all you are doing is making that cap the next "ballgroup" number. Groups used to go up to 24 and were much worse, both on the server and for the health of the game's balance. A 12 man group isn't even that bad. Groups of 24 pugs should be able to deal with it unless they are just not great at the game, and guess what, if they aren't great they shouldn't win.

There isn't a logical proposal ever brought up when you engage on this topic, and you do it daily, for hours on end.

In addition, only bad ballgroups just heal stack and don't do anything. My group consistently fights and kills the biggest and best ballgroups in the game. Ballgroups always fight each other and one usually ends up winning. Stalling and perma fighting only happens with zergs who sit there and res each other over and over, which creates more lag than any ballgroup ever will, and no ballgroup ever complains about that lack of balance because guess what, it's just what happens where there are too many people. People aren't asking for ressing to be nerfed so it can't continue the way it does , but that is way healthier for the game than anything else proposed.

Nothing is ever done because devs don’t play PvP against ballgroups and ballgroups lobby against any nerfs successfully and make all other playstiles quit until they are only ones left(also in forum).

Noone is asking for smaller group to beat a larger more coordinated group consistently but there should be a way to do it at all.
If you trade blows with a larger group you loose even if they don’t have crosshealing but if you catch and burst them offguard or oil them they shouldn’t get saved by shared effects when otherwise they would have died.
IRL beeing in a larger group doesn’t protect you from lethal dmg but having larger number is still a usually decisive advantage in fights.

Artisian0001 · September 26

Iriidius wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

If you could stack heals in a group you could at least try to coordinate fight back against a zerg.

That's just stacking heals to stall out a fight without killing anyone, like the ball groups on Live, and what the large raid guilds on Vengeance are doing. Their raw numbers flip flags, as opposed to a ball group circling the roof for 40 minutes.

What any large scale PvP needs is for solos/casuals/zergs to be able to put out enough damage to win outnumbered, without the need for the outside-game logistics and hard structure demanded by running in comp groups. This could potentially be accomplished by say, removing offensive AoE caps and restoring the lingering ground AoE on Meatbags.

Your point is lacking any real logical sense. You do this on every thread where you complain about the same things over and over and nothing is ever done to nerf it but you don't really ever take it as a sign. You want people to be able to kill COORDINATED GROUPS, while the lesser groups that aren't a ball group are NOT COORDINATED and also HAVE LESS PEOPOLE. Skills and sets like this already exist to benefit players when they are out numbered. There is no way to make smaller groups able to consistently kill bigger more coordinated groups without breaking the game entirely.

I mean just think of it, it doesn't make sense. Smaller groups can already beat better groups that are stacking heals if the player number isn't extremely significant. If the player number is extremely significant ex. 4v12, and the skill level of the players is similar, it would make zero sense for the 4 to consistently be able to beat the 12. When I go out with my group and I engage groups much bigger than ours, where the players are also skilled, we are aware we are not supposed to win every single engage, that's just what happens.

If you nerf heals or cross heals to a certain number, all you are doing is making that cap the next "ballgroup" number. Groups used to go up to 24 and were much worse, both on the server and for the health of the game's balance. A 12 man group isn't even that bad. Groups of 24 pugs should be able to deal with it unless they are just not great at the game, and guess what, if they aren't great they shouldn't win.

There isn't a logical proposal ever brought up when you engage on this topic, and you do it daily, for hours on end.

In addition, only bad ballgroups just heal stack and don't do anything. My group consistently fights and kills the biggest and best ballgroups in the game. Ballgroups always fight each other and one usually ends up winning. Stalling and perma fighting only happens with zergs who sit there and res each other over and over, which creates more lag than any ballgroup ever will, and no ballgroup ever complains about that lack of balance because guess what, it's just what happens where there are too many people. People aren't asking for ressing to be nerfed so it can't continue the way it does , but that is way healthier for the game than anything else proposed.

Nothing is ever done because devs don’t play PvP against ballgroups and ballgroups lobby against any nerfs successfully and make all other playstiles quit until they are only ones left(also in forum).

Noone is asking for smaller group to beat a larger more coordinated group consistently but there should be a way to do it at all.
If you trade blows with a larger group you loose even if they don’t have crosshealing but if you catch and burst them offguard or oil them they shouldn’t get saved by shared effects when otherwise they would have died.
IRL beeing in a larger group doesn’t protect you from lethal dmg but having larger number is still a usually decisive advantage in fights.

You once again have zero clue about what you're writing and PvP so allow me to educate you

There is no lobbying, nobody is being paid to keep ballgroups the way they are, and the amount of people who complain about ballgroups being too strong vastly outnumbers the people who defend it. Why does it stay the way it is then? Well maybe because of the reasons I gave that you didn't contend with AT ALL lol. More people who are coordinate should be able to kill you. That's just reality. Why would it make any sense for this not to be true? People will complain about whatever kills them, such is life. Just because you and other players complain about it doesn't make it inherently unbalanced. This is an MMO. Playing with groups and making friends is common. If you don't like that bigger groups of better more coordinated players kill you then find a new game, this isn't the one for you.

People 100% are asking for it to be more consistent, and your statement following doesn't even make sense. "here should be a way to do it at all." There is. Smaller groups kill larger groups all day long. You don't even know what you are asking for. Just like all the other people who complain about ballgroups your complaints get ignored because they aren't even real complaints. You just complain about made up issues. Bombers kill larger groups. Better smaller groups kill larger groups. What do you want to be done, do you want to push a button and whoever you dislike that kills you often just dies?

Now you are saying you lose even if they don't have cross healing in the bigger group. It seems almost like you just don't want to lose no matter the reason. Yes, once again, bigger groups will usually win. Why are you comparing this to real life as if it's even slightly analogues at all? You can't stack HP in real life, you can't build for being tanky in real life. Your comparison to real life doesn't matter when it's so far from comparable. You can, once again, still burst down people in large groups. NBs can pick people out, single target does kill them, it's quite common. What are you even trying to advocate for aside from "I want the game to do what I say."

MincMincMinc · September 26

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

This is exactly the situation that a ballgroup would be able to break on live.

Solos/pugs need to be able to break these situations or the game dies, as Live has proved.

Problem is we are a whole second tier past just needing solo mechanics again. The current live pvp has solo and smallgroup players so far removed from the equation it is comical. Group sets have way too many unique stacking effects. Your average solo player for a 5 piece item set might get around 450wd with a downtime. Then look at something like rallying or olorime and that ONE 5 piece bonus is worth 5160wd with no downtime.....actually worse a negative downtime where they can reproc it.

Why do solo players only get 450wd some of the time jumping through hoops, but the same player can get 5160wd all of the time while they are in a safety bubble group of 12 players? If anything this should be reversed where groups have to coordinate and time activation.

Not to mention game design wise we know the lag has something to do with group combat at the very least. Its bad enough these group sets have 30 parts to them contributing to lag on their own.....but worst off they demand these group players spam more aoe over time effects to proc them. Why not incentivize group players to use single target aimed skills for the proc conditions, to get them to spam skills that don't contribute to lag as much?

Zos's notion of solo players need to be inefficient, but group players already abusing numbers need to be not only perfectly efficient, but also go beyond and 10x their stats is some real backwards logic.

Then we get back into making more solo skills to level the playing field. Where we had things like DK wings reflect. Harness magicka sustain. Sunshield building off the players. Sap essence and siphon attacks sustain off enemies hit. Critsurge cooldown every 0.25s, ball of lightning absorb, old batswarm lifestealing while gaining ult off kills in bats.

So many fun solo playstyles removed from the game, I still remember popping 7+bats in a row the patch before they gutted it for the goliath copy and paste

Artisian0001 · September 26

People shouting their complaints into the void about solo play like this is a single player RPG and as if vengeance wasn't made with much smaller target caps to prioritize them, and now it's dead. Almost like I've said a thousand times, people who complain don't even know what they want or what they are complaining about.

Telel · September 26

So the takeaway from the OP's post is this.

1) When given the opportunity a lot of people are going to go and do the very thing certain 'pro streamers' have been doing on Gray Host for a long time now. That is run off to the red team so they can gate camp whomever is getting zerged down. After all easy mode makes them feel accomplished, and avoids the risk of ...'losing'.

2) Cyrodiil is in dire need of a revamp to its reward system. Hardcore scrubbery like this is incentivized while choosing the harder more challenging path is punished. Which just leads to ever increasing levels of toxicity, effective obliteration of competition, and a loss of players with a sense of sportsmanship.

SO I must once again point out that a more dynamic AP rewarding system is needed. Imagine how things would be if faction stacking and gate camping the 1 bar team lead to 0 AP for the 'winners' and a lot of AP and other rewards for those playing on hard more.

It'd definitely assist in separating the good players from those who just want to be be trolls, and or leech easy AP.

MincMincMinc · September 26

Telel wrote: »

So the takeaway from the OP's post is this.

SO I must once again point out that a more dynamic AP rewarding system is needed. Imagine how things would be if faction stacking and gate camping the 1 bar team lead to 0 AP for the 'winners' and a lot of AP and other rewards for those playing on hard more.

It'd definitely assist in separating the good players from those who just want to be be trolls, and or leech easy AP.

The actual ap from getting kills needs to be increased. I still remember way back when they did those changes to gut the purpose of resource nodes they had done AP changes to make keep takes far more. Pushing the common playstyle to be stack in a ball or zerg and ram pvdoor keeps for ap.

Incentivizing kills and spread out objectives like resources helps break up the blackhole of group zergs being the only viable way of interacting with the campaign. Keep ticks should if anything only increase with flag time and kills and be worth nothing to pvdoor. Healer ap gain is the biggest issue to think through. How to give them ap without taxing the server is not as simple as who got the killing blow.

Muizer · September 26

iGuavaTH wrote: »

Map is all red

Sounds like a concerted effort to kill the campaign.

CameraBeardThePirate · September 26

Artisian0001 wrote: »

People shouting their complaints into the void about solo play like this is a single player RPG and as if vengeance wasn't made with much smaller target caps to prioritize them, and now it's dead. Almost like I've said a thousand times, people who complain don't even know what they want or what they are complaining about.

Smaller target caps don't benefit solo players, they benefit large groups. That's just common sense.