Vengeance is Dead.

YandereGirlfriend

Telel wrote: »

So the takeaway from the OP's post is this.

1) When given the opportunity a lot of people are going to go and do the very thing certain 'pro streamers' have been doing on Gray Host for a long time now. That is run off to the red team so they can gate camp whomever is getting zerged down. After all easy mode makes them feel accomplished, and avoids the risk of ...'losing'.

2) Cyrodiil is in dire need of a revamp to its reward system. Hardcore scrubbery like this is incentivized while choosing the harder more challenging path is punished. Which just leads to ever increasing levels of toxicity, effective obliteration of competition, and a loss of players with a sense of sportsmanship.

SO I must once again point out that a more dynamic AP rewarding system is needed. Imagine how things would be if faction stacking and gate camping the 1 bar team lead to 0 AP for the 'winners' and a lot of AP and other rewards for those playing on hard more.

It'd definitely assist in separating the good players from those who just want to be be trolls, and or leech easy AP.

I have no earthly idea why ZOS has not changed the incentive and buff structure to reward underdog factions in all of like the 11 or whatever years of the game's existence.

On my literal very first day in Cyrodiil aeons ago, my first thought was, "Wait, why is the winning side buffed for bullying the other sides, this seems stupid." From the jump, the win-harder mechanics of Cyrodiil have never made any sense.

This is like blindingly obvious to anyone who spends time there. Underpopulated factions need buffs not nerfs. Or at the very least they need massive rewards to induce them to affirmatively choose Hard Mode PvP over mindless bandwagoning.

TheAwesomeChimpanzee

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Telel wrote: »

So the takeaway from the OP's post is this.

1) When given the opportunity a lot of people are going to go and do the very thing certain 'pro streamers' have been doing on Gray Host for a long time now. That is run off to the red team so they can gate camp whomever is getting zerged down. After all easy mode makes them feel accomplished, and avoids the risk of ...'losing'.

2) Cyrodiil is in dire need of a revamp to its reward system. Hardcore scrubbery like this is incentivized while choosing the harder more challenging path is punished. Which just leads to ever increasing levels of toxicity, effective obliteration of competition, and a loss of players with a sense of sportsmanship.

SO I must once again point out that a more dynamic AP rewarding system is needed. Imagine how things would be if faction stacking and gate camping the 1 bar team lead to 0 AP for the 'winners' and a lot of AP and other rewards for those playing on hard more.

It'd definitely assist in separating the good players from those who just want to be be trolls, and or leech easy AP.

I have no earthly idea why ZOS has not changed the incentive and buff structure to reward underdog factions in all of like the 11 or whatever years of the game's existence.

On my literal very first day in Cyrodiil aeons ago, my first thought was, "Wait, why is the winning side buffed for bullying the other sides, this seems stupid." From the jump, the win-harder mechanics of Cyrodiil have never made any sense.

This is like blindingly obvious to anyone who spends time there. Underpopulated factions need buffs not nerfs. Or at the very least they need massive rewards to induce them to affirmatively choose Hard Mode PvP over mindless bandwagoning.

I agree with you. The campaign scoring system and rewards not just the combat buffs should have been reworked ages ago. Right now there is unironically no incentive to win a campaign. Personally when I log into PvP I do it to enjoy what is left of the gameplay and combat systems, not to take keeps or play the map, because I know none of that rewards me with anything at the end of the day.

If it did, I am sure many veteran players and ball groups would actually play for score. With a scoring system adjusted through proper low pop bonuses or another method to address off hours capping, the whole Cyrodiil experience would be much better for everyone.

acastanza_ESO

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Telel wrote: »

So the takeaway from the OP's post is this.

1) When given the opportunity a lot of people are going to go and do the very thing certain 'pro streamers' have been doing on Gray Host for a long time now. That is run off to the red team so they can gate camp whomever is getting zerged down. After all easy mode makes them feel accomplished, and avoids the risk of ...'losing'.

2) Cyrodiil is in dire need of a revamp to its reward system. Hardcore scrubbery like this is incentivized while choosing the harder more challenging path is punished. Which just leads to ever increasing levels of toxicity, effective obliteration of competition, and a loss of players with a sense of sportsmanship.

SO I must once again point out that a more dynamic AP rewarding system is needed. Imagine how things would be if faction stacking and gate camping the 1 bar team lead to 0 AP for the 'winners' and a lot of AP and other rewards for those playing on hard more.

It'd definitely assist in separating the good players from those who just want to be be trolls, and or leech easy AP.

I have no earthly idea why ZOS has not changed the incentive and buff structure to reward underdog factions in all of like the 11 or whatever years of the game's existence.

On my literal very first day in Cyrodiil aeons ago, my first thought was, "Wait, why is the winning side buffed for bullying the other sides, this seems stupid." From the jump, the win-harder mechanics of Cyrodiil have never made any sense.

This is like blindingly obvious to anyone who spends time there. Underpopulated factions need buffs not nerfs. Or at the very least they need massive rewards to induce them to affirmatively choose Hard Mode PvP over mindless bandwagoning.

So much this. For example, I've said for years that holding scrolls that aren't yours should debuff your faction in exchange for the score, not buff it.

MincMincMinc

React wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

RaidingTraiding wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

People shouting their complaints into the void about solo play like this is a single player RPG and as if vengeance wasn't made with much smaller target caps to prioritize them, and now it's dead. Almost like I've said a thousand times, people who complain don't even know what they want or what they are complaining about.

Smaller target caps don't benefit solo players, they benefit large groups. That's just common sense.

How is that common sense when the large groups can't heal all their group members effectively? Vengeance is made to incentivize people to stop grouping in such large amounts and branch out. That's common sense Players just refuse to strop grouping.

They don't need to heal all their group members effectively if the players trying to damage them can't choose who they're damaging.

Heals in Vengeance are, for the most part, targeted heals or smart heals. That means you're either manually selecting low health players or the game is selecting low health players for you.

AoE Damage skills in Vengeance are simply choosing 3 players at random. There is no way to focus the low health pockets of players with AoE skills, which heavily incentivises stacking in a zerg.

The attacking solo player will spam their AoE skills and damage people at random, while the Zerg will spam AoE heals and heal only the people that need it the most.

Let's say you're in a small man trying to bomb a Zerg. Your 4 man group perfectly lines up your ultimates and skills right on top of a zerg, except you don't kill anyone because the game decided that each person in your group should damage different players in the zerg at random. The zerg spams AoE heals like the Necro corpse heal, and suddenly all the people that took damage are back up to full because only the people that needed healing were healed.

To actually incentivise solo/small man, heals should be capped and damage skills should be uncapped OR AoE damage skills should prioritize low health targets the same way that AoE heals do.

You are just lying to try to win a point. The AoE targeting on damage isn't random. I know you mainly play BGs but you can at least be truthful in what you're saying. This is why everything on the forums gets ignored when people complain, they just lie about how the game functions.

Who's lying here? That's exactly how it works. This is one of the main gripes with vengeance and why it is so zerg friendly. You can coordinate aoe ult dumps with a group but you hardly kill anyone because of this very reason. Everyone else hits different targets, even your skills hit different targets, then they just heal up. It's completely useless against zergs. How can you burst down targets if most targets are immune to a lot of your damage because of caps?

If you think AoE targeting is random you just don't care to know how the game works. Calling it random is just uninformed and unskilled. Learn the game.

Which 3 people are going to get hit?

Artisian0001 wrote: »

RaidingTraiding wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

People shouting their complaints into the void about solo play like this is a single player RPG and as if vengeance wasn't made with much smaller target caps to prioritize them, and now it's dead. Almost like I've said a thousand times, people who complain don't even know what they want or what they are complaining about.

Smaller target caps don't benefit solo players, they benefit large groups. That's just common sense.

How is that common sense when the large groups can't heal all their group members effectively? Vengeance is made to incentivize people to stop grouping in such large amounts and branch out. That's common sense Players just refuse to strop grouping.

They don't need to heal all their group members effectively if the players trying to damage them can't choose who they're damaging.

Heals in Vengeance are, for the most part, targeted heals or smart heals. That means you're either manually selecting low health players or the game is selecting low health players for you.

AoE Damage skills in Vengeance are simply choosing 3 players at random. There is no way to focus the low health pockets of players with AoE skills, which heavily incentivises stacking in a zerg.

The attacking solo player will spam their AoE skills and damage people at random, while the Zerg will spam AoE heals and heal only the people that need it the most.

Let's say you're in a small man trying to bomb a Zerg. Your 4 man group perfectly lines up your ultimates and skills right on top of a zerg, except you don't kill anyone because the game decided that each person in your group should damage different players in the zerg at random. The zerg spams AoE heals like the Necro corpse heal, and suddenly all the people that took damage are back up to full because only the people that needed healing were healed.

To actually incentivise solo/small man, heals should be capped and damage skills should be uncapped OR AoE damage skills should prioritize low health targets the same way that AoE heals do.

You are just lying to try to win a point. The AoE targeting on damage isn't random. I know you mainly play BGs but you can at least be truthful in what you're saying. This is why everything on the forums gets ignored when people complain, they just lie about how the game functions.

Who's lying here? That's exactly how it works. This is one of the main gripes with vengeance and why it is so zerg friendly. You can coordinate aoe ult dumps with a group but you hardly kill anyone because of this very reason. Everyone else hits different targets, even your skills hit different targets, then they just heal up. It's completely useless against zergs. How can you burst down targets if most targets are immune to a lot of your damage because of caps?

If you think AoE targeting is random you just don't care to know how the game works. Calling it random is just uninformed and unskilled. Learn the game.

I did double check how zos handled the caps in veng:

AoE damage skills prioritize closest to you

AoE heal skills smartheal to the lowest health ally

ShadowMole25

This is the first night I have ever joined a Vengeance campaign and honestly, it was a lot of fun. It felt like Blackwater Blade from 10 years ago when I first started playing. No procs, nothing seemed overly broken, it was survival if you understood your surroundings and skills, no one felt invincible. I died more than I killed. I ran both as a solo for about an hour and with a guild group for a few hours and it was fun in both situations. Lots of large fights around keeps and in the open field. Many of those fights were losses for us, many were victories. All in all, I enjoyed it and it felt exactly like how I expected Cyrodiil to feel back when I first started playing.

xR3ACTORx

"All in all, I enjoyed it and it felt exactly like how I expected Cyrodiil to feel back when I first started playing."

Congrats. You just described why people play something else during vengeance.

MasterSpatula

Although the higher pop limits are certainly a contributing factor, I feel like y'all want to give ZOS all the blame for something that's about 75% the result of player behavior. No one but DC and AD players are responsible for them not showing up. No one but EP players are responsible for continuing to enjoy imbalance levels they really ought to find thoroughly distasteful.

That said, the scoring suggestions made immediately above are very, very, very good.

Iriidius

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

If you could stack heals in a group you could at least try to coordinate fight back against a zerg.

That's just stacking heals to stall out a fight without killing anyone, like the ball groups on Live, and what the large raid guilds on Vengeance are doing. Their raw numbers flip flags, as opposed to a ball group circling the roof for 40 minutes.

What any large scale PvP needs is for solos/casuals/zergs to be able to put out enough damage to win outnumbered, without the need for the outside-game logistics and hard structure demanded by running in comp groups. This could potentially be accomplished by say, removing offensive AoE caps and restoring the lingering ground AoE on Meatbags.

Your point is lacking any real logical sense. You do this on every thread where you complain about the same things over and over and nothing is ever done to nerf it but you don't really ever take it as a sign. You want people to be able to kill COORDINATED GROUPS, while the lesser groups that aren't a ball group are NOT COORDINATED and also HAVE LESS PEOPOLE. Skills and sets like this already exist to benefit players when they are out numbered. There is no way to make smaller groups able to consistently kill bigger more coordinated groups without breaking the game entirely.

I mean just think of it, it doesn't make sense. Smaller groups can already beat better groups that are stacking heals if the player number isn't extremely significant. If the player number is extremely significant ex. 4v12, and the skill level of the players is similar, it would make zero sense for the 4 to consistently be able to beat the 12. When I go out with my group and I engage groups much bigger than ours, where the players are also skilled, we are aware we are not supposed to win every single engage, that's just what happens.

If you nerf heals or cross heals to a certain number, all you are doing is making that cap the next "ballgroup" number. Groups used to go up to 24 and were much worse, both on the server and for the health of the game's balance. A 12 man group isn't even that bad. Groups of 24 pugs should be able to deal with it unless they are just not great at the game, and guess what, if they aren't great they shouldn't win.

There isn't a logical proposal ever brought up when you engage on this topic, and you do it daily, for hours on end.

In addition, only bad ballgroups just heal stack and don't do anything. My group consistently fights and kills the biggest and best ballgroups in the game. Ballgroups always fight each other and one usually ends up winning. Stalling and perma fighting only happens with zergs who sit there and res each other over and over, which creates more lag than any ballgroup ever will, and no ballgroup ever complains about that lack of balance because guess what, it's just what happens where there are too many people. People aren't asking for ressing to be nerfed so it can't continue the way it does , but that is way healthier for the game than anything else proposed.

Nothing is ever done because devs don’t play PvP against ballgroups and ballgroups lobby against any nerfs successfully and make all other playstiles quit until they are only ones left(also in forum).

Noone is asking for smaller group to beat a larger more coordinated group consistently but there should be a way to do it at all.
If you trade blows with a larger group you loose even if they don’t have crosshealing but if you catch and burst them offguard or oil them they shouldn’t get saved by shared effects when otherwise they would have died.
IRL beeing in a larger group doesn’t protect you from lethal dmg but having larger number is still a usually decisive advantage in fights.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

This is exactly the situation that a ballgroup would be able to break on live.

Solos/pugs need to be able to break these situations or the game dies, as Live has proved.

No, an uncoordinated group should not be able to consistently beat or even seriously disrupt a coordinated larger force. That makes absolutely zero logical sense.

A small coordinated group, however, especially when fighting within a zerg, absolutely can disrupt and even kill 12-man ball groups if they build and coordinate properly. But explain to me how it makes any sense for a random pug running their solo YouTube build to deal lethal damage on their own to a group that has spent far more time and effort min-maxing comps, perfecting roles, and drilling execution specifically to have a competitive advantage.

That’s like saying a thousand untrained peasants should be able to consistently beat a hundred trained marines just because of sheer numbers. Use your brain — preparation, coordination, and skill are supposed to matter.

I already said I don’t ask to consistently beat a larger group but just for a way to kill them.

That a smaller ballgroup can beat a larger ballgroup with help of a zerg is no option or help for non-members of ballgroups.

The marines should have the skills to avoid getting mortally wounded but not survive getting shot in the chest many times without bulletproof vest than kill the peasant by a glancing shot scratching his finger.

You took that parallel way too literally. The point wasn’t to run a military sim, it was dumbed down so even people like you could understand: coordination and skill matter, and they carry far more weight than anything a single pug can put out.

And let’s not pretend solos contribute nothing — you do contribute against a ball group, you just don’t feel it because it’s minimal. Why? Because you didn’t put in the same time, effort, and coordination that the ball group invests into min-maxing comps and perfecting execution. That’s the difference.

You took from that parallel only what fits your agenda and ignore the part contradicting it expecting me to do the same.
Finding that contradiction is taking it too literal for you, others are only allowed to use the part that supports your agenda.
Am I too dumb to understand your arguments (if not dumbed down) or not dumb enaugh to believe them.
While coordination and skill should and do matter ballgroups get even more of their strength from groupbuilds enabling godmode.
Contribution too minimal too feel it is nearly nothing and makes fighting ballgroups or PvP at all when they are everywhere senseless.
Soloplayers also invest time into min-maxing their builds and perfecting their execution and coordination but can’t coordinate with players that are non existent or always changing.

TheAwesomeChimpanzee

Iriidius wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

If you could stack heals in a group you could at least try to coordinate fight back against a zerg.

That's just stacking heals to stall out a fight without killing anyone, like the ball groups on Live, and what the large raid guilds on Vengeance are doing. Their raw numbers flip flags, as opposed to a ball group circling the roof for 40 minutes.

What any large scale PvP needs is for solos/casuals/zergs to be able to put out enough damage to win outnumbered, without the need for the outside-game logistics and hard structure demanded by running in comp groups. This could potentially be accomplished by say, removing offensive AoE caps and restoring the lingering ground AoE on Meatbags.

Your point is lacking any real logical sense. You do this on every thread where you complain about the same things over and over and nothing is ever done to nerf it but you don't really ever take it as a sign. You want people to be able to kill COORDINATED GROUPS, while the lesser groups that aren't a ball group are NOT COORDINATED and also HAVE LESS PEOPOLE. Skills and sets like this already exist to benefit players when they are out numbered. There is no way to make smaller groups able to consistently kill bigger more coordinated groups without breaking the game entirely.

I mean just think of it, it doesn't make sense. Smaller groups can already beat better groups that are stacking heals if the player number isn't extremely significant. If the player number is extremely significant ex. 4v12, and the skill level of the players is similar, it would make zero sense for the 4 to consistently be able to beat the 12. When I go out with my group and I engage groups much bigger than ours, where the players are also skilled, we are aware we are not supposed to win every single engage, that's just what happens.

If you nerf heals or cross heals to a certain number, all you are doing is making that cap the next "ballgroup" number. Groups used to go up to 24 and were much worse, both on the server and for the health of the game's balance. A 12 man group isn't even that bad. Groups of 24 pugs should be able to deal with it unless they are just not great at the game, and guess what, if they aren't great they shouldn't win.

There isn't a logical proposal ever brought up when you engage on this topic, and you do it daily, for hours on end.

In addition, only bad ballgroups just heal stack and don't do anything. My group consistently fights and kills the biggest and best ballgroups in the game. Ballgroups always fight each other and one usually ends up winning. Stalling and perma fighting only happens with zergs who sit there and res each other over and over, which creates more lag than any ballgroup ever will, and no ballgroup ever complains about that lack of balance because guess what, it's just what happens where there are too many people. People aren't asking for ressing to be nerfed so it can't continue the way it does , but that is way healthier for the game than anything else proposed.

Nothing is ever done because devs don’t play PvP against ballgroups and ballgroups lobby against any nerfs successfully and make all other playstiles quit until they are only ones left(also in forum).

Noone is asking for smaller group to beat a larger more coordinated group consistently but there should be a way to do it at all.
If you trade blows with a larger group you loose even if they don’t have crosshealing but if you catch and burst them offguard or oil them they shouldn’t get saved by shared effects when otherwise they would have died.
IRL beeing in a larger group doesn’t protect you from lethal dmg but having larger number is still a usually decisive advantage in fights.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

This is exactly the situation that a ballgroup would be able to break on live.

Solos/pugs need to be able to break these situations or the game dies, as Live has proved.

No, an uncoordinated group should not be able to consistently beat or even seriously disrupt a coordinated larger force. That makes absolutely zero logical sense.

A small coordinated group, however, especially when fighting within a zerg, absolutely can disrupt and even kill 12-man ball groups if they build and coordinate properly. But explain to me how it makes any sense for a random pug running their solo YouTube build to deal lethal damage on their own to a group that has spent far more time and effort min-maxing comps, perfecting roles, and drilling execution specifically to have a competitive advantage.

That’s like saying a thousand untrained peasants should be able to consistently beat a hundred trained marines just because of sheer numbers. Use your brain — preparation, coordination, and skill are supposed to matter.

I already said I don’t ask to consistently beat a larger group but just for a way to kill them.

That a smaller ballgroup can beat a larger ballgroup with help of a zerg is no option or help for non-members of ballgroups.

The marines should have the skills to avoid getting mortally wounded but not survive getting shot in the chest many times without bulletproof vest than kill the peasant by a glancing shot scratching his finger.

You took that parallel way too literally. The point wasn’t to run a military sim, it was dumbed down so even people like you could understand: coordination and skill matter, and they carry far more weight than anything a single pug can put out.

And let’s not pretend solos contribute nothing — you do contribute against a ball group, you just don’t feel it because it’s minimal. Why? Because you didn’t put in the same time, effort, and coordination that the ball group invests into min-maxing comps and perfecting execution. That’s the difference.

You took from that parallel only what fits your agenda and ignore the part contradicting it expecting me to do the same.
Finding that contradiction is taking it too literal for you, others are only allowed to use the part that supports your agenda.
Am I too dumb to understand your arguments (if not dumbed down) or not dumb enaugh to believe them.
While coordination and skill should and do matter ballgroups get even more of their strength from groupbuilds enabling godmode.
Contribution too minimal too feel it is nearly nothing and makes fighting ballgroups or PvP at all when they are everywhere senseless.
Soloplayers also invest time into min-maxing their builds and perfecting their execution and coordination but can’t coordinate with players that are non existent or always changing.

Alright, let’s dumb this down to your level and go back to the example. A thousand peasants would never defeat a hundred trained US Marines in any realistic modern warfare scenario. Surprised I even have to spell that out for you, but here we are.

Yes, the peasants (you) can “optimize” their setup all they want, but they still wouldn’t be able to take on the Marines (the 12-man ball group), even if they outnumber them 5 to 1, unless the Marines make a huge mistake. And that’s exactly how it should be.

You keep crying as a solo player in an MMO about groups existing, but if you actually believe you can min-max your builds so well, then grab a few friends and build a proper 4–5 man comp. Zerg down a ball group and see how far you get.

JohnRingo

Hey Chimp, I will say this much about ball groups. Although it rarely happens, It is glorious to be part of a team (not peasants, but highly optimized PvP players) that does break down and finally defeat a ball group. It can and does happen. I have been a part of such scenarios a few times.

I personally bear no ill will against ball groups. Level 2600 PvP main here.

Turtle_Bot

My takeaway from this test is the following:

Extremely poorly timed along with very minimal changes and the way modern ESO PvP is played really did not help this test at all.

For the first point:
This test running alongside a PvE focused (undaunted) in-game event (that also has the golden pursuit bonus rewards) means that most players won't bother joining the campaign.
This test is also running alongside the PTS test for the next vengeance test that is bringing a lot more (and bigger) changes and specifically changes that players were giving feedback about for the mode.
This test is being done during a traditionally low period for player engagement in ESO.
This means the player base the would participate in this test is very split up between vengeance on live, vengeance on PTS and PvE and there are also less players currently playing the game in general.

On a personal note, I haven't been able to participate in this test much myself due to travelling for work (meaning I'm not on my regular setup) and working long hours getting the current project I'm working on done (meaning I have little time even if I was at home and on my regular setup). I only really have time for daily log in and normal mode dungeons for event tickets/pledge rewards before I need to sleep to get up early the next morning.

The one time I did log into the vengeance campaign it was as described above where EP was gating everyone and there was no point playing (nothing to do as an EP player since there were no fights outside of swarming down the few players who dared to try and take a resource for the other alliances, and trying to play another alliance meant getting instantly zerged down by 50+ bored players when trying to take a single resource). No point continuing to try for this test under these conditions when I already don't have the time to play much as is due to work.

For the second point:
This test had very minimal changes done (this is something that will pop up again in future tests). The addition of armor lines (well 3 skills) and some guild lines (only mages/fighters lines) and meatbags really weren't that big compared to even the second test that added all 6 weapon lines (enabling a lot more builds/playstyles).

For the third point:
This is an issue in every PvP mode in ESO, not just vengeance mode and has been seen even in PvE too, but the current PvP player base really just isn't interested in actually engaging in interesting fights where there's a chance to lose/fail, they just want their rewards for "winning" without any effort.

This is a result of over-catering purely to the extremely casual playerbase to the point of driving away the dedicated playerbase. It's fine to open things up for more casual players and should be encouraged to bring more new players in, but there also needs to be ways of encouraging players to want to remain and grow with the game long term (not trying to force everyone to be the sweatiest sweatlord, but to at least want to engage more with more aspects of the game and to encourage that desire to reach their best/achieve more in the game as they play the game).

First 2 points are fairly easy to fix (at least on paper), with better planning by ZOS. The third point unfortunately is much harder (if not impossible) to fix, since that requires actually changing the overall direction of the game (have to see what direction the new leads will go) as well as shifting the focus and types of players engaging with the game from those who just want all the rewards instantly, and for little to no effort, to players who want to actively engage, grow and achieve things with/in the game.

Vaqual

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Telel wrote: »

So the takeaway from the OP's post is this.

1) When given the opportunity a lot of people are going to go and do the very thing certain 'pro streamers' have been doing on Gray Host for a long time now. That is run off to the red team so they can gate camp whomever is getting zerged down. After all easy mode makes them feel accomplished, and avoids the risk of ...'losing'.

2) Cyrodiil is in dire need of a revamp to its reward system. Hardcore scrubbery like this is incentivized while choosing the harder more challenging path is punished. Which just leads to ever increasing levels of toxicity, effective obliteration of competition, and a loss of players with a sense of sportsmanship.

SO I must once again point out that a more dynamic AP rewarding system is needed. Imagine how things would be if faction stacking and gate camping the 1 bar team lead to 0 AP for the 'winners' and a lot of AP and other rewards for those playing on hard more.

It'd definitely assist in separating the good players from those who just want to be be trolls, and or leech easy AP.

I have no earthly idea why ZOS has not changed the incentive and buff structure to reward underdog factions in all of like the 11 or whatever years of the game's existence.

On my literal very first day in Cyrodiil aeons ago, my first thought was, "Wait, why is the winning side buffed for bullying the other sides, this seems stupid." From the jump, the win-harder mechanics of Cyrodiil have never made any sense.

This is like blindingly obvious to anyone who spends time there. Underpopulated factions need buffs not nerfs. Or at the very least they need massive rewards to induce them to affirmatively choose Hard Mode PvP over mindless bandwagoning.

I suspect the original reasoning was that the winning faction will share a relatively larger frontline with the two other factions and will be forced to spread thinner with equal pop caps. But therein lies the problem...

TheAwesomeChimpanzee

JohnRingo wrote: »

Hey Chimp, I will say this much about ball groups. Although it rarely happens, It is glorious to be part of a team (not peasants, but highly optimized PvP players) that does break down and finally defeat a ball group. It can and does happen. I have been a part of such scenarios a few times.

I personally bear no ill will against ball groups. Level 2600 PvP main here.

Yeah, this is exactly what I mean—you put a group together and, through coordinated effort, you managed to bring the ball group down. Why? Because you invested the time and effort into grouping and optimizing to reach that level. I bet it felt amazing, and with more practice and even tighter optimization, you’ll probably be able to take them down much more consistently.

Iriidius

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

If you could stack heals in a group you could at least try to coordinate fight back against a zerg.

That's just stacking heals to stall out a fight without killing anyone, like the ball groups on Live, and what the large raid guilds on Vengeance are doing. Their raw numbers flip flags, as opposed to a ball group circling the roof for 40 minutes.

What any large scale PvP needs is for solos/casuals/zergs to be able to put out enough damage to win outnumbered, without the need for the outside-game logistics and hard structure demanded by running in comp groups. This could potentially be accomplished by say, removing offensive AoE caps and restoring the lingering ground AoE on Meatbags.

Your point is lacking any real logical sense. You do this on every thread where you complain about the same things over and over and nothing is ever done to nerf it but you don't really ever take it as a sign. You want people to be able to kill COORDINATED GROUPS, while the lesser groups that aren't a ball group are NOT COORDINATED and also HAVE LESS PEOPOLE. Skills and sets like this already exist to benefit players when they are out numbered. There is no way to make smaller groups able to consistently kill bigger more coordinated groups without breaking the game entirely.

I mean just think of it, it doesn't make sense. Smaller groups can already beat better groups that are stacking heals if the player number isn't extremely significant. If the player number is extremely significant ex. 4v12, and the skill level of the players is similar, it would make zero sense for the 4 to consistently be able to beat the 12. When I go out with my group and I engage groups much bigger than ours, where the players are also skilled, we are aware we are not supposed to win every single engage, that's just what happens.

If you nerf heals or cross heals to a certain number, all you are doing is making that cap the next "ballgroup" number. Groups used to go up to 24 and were much worse, both on the server and for the health of the game's balance. A 12 man group isn't even that bad. Groups of 24 pugs should be able to deal with it unless they are just not great at the game, and guess what, if they aren't great they shouldn't win.

There isn't a logical proposal ever brought up when you engage on this topic, and you do it daily, for hours on end.

In addition, only bad ballgroups just heal stack and don't do anything. My group consistently fights and kills the biggest and best ballgroups in the game. Ballgroups always fight each other and one usually ends up winning. Stalling and perma fighting only happens with zergs who sit there and res each other over and over, which creates more lag than any ballgroup ever will, and no ballgroup ever complains about that lack of balance because guess what, it's just what happens where there are too many people. People aren't asking for ressing to be nerfed so it can't continue the way it does , but that is way healthier for the game than anything else proposed.

Nothing is ever done because devs don’t play PvP against ballgroups and ballgroups lobby against any nerfs successfully and make all other playstiles quit until they are only ones left(also in forum).

Noone is asking for smaller group to beat a larger more coordinated group consistently but there should be a way to do it at all.
If you trade blows with a larger group you loose even if they don’t have crosshealing but if you catch and burst them offguard or oil them they shouldn’t get saved by shared effects when otherwise they would have died.
IRL beeing in a larger group doesn’t protect you from lethal dmg but having larger number is still a usually decisive advantage in fights.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

This is exactly the situation that a ballgroup would be able to break on live.

Solos/pugs need to be able to break these situations or the game dies, as Live has proved.

No, an uncoordinated group should not be able to consistently beat or even seriously disrupt a coordinated larger force. That makes absolutely zero logical sense.

A small coordinated group, however, especially when fighting within a zerg, absolutely can disrupt and even kill 12-man ball groups if they build and coordinate properly. But explain to me how it makes any sense for a random pug running their solo YouTube build to deal lethal damage on their own to a group that has spent far more time and effort min-maxing comps, perfecting roles, and drilling execution specifically to have a competitive advantage.

That’s like saying a thousand untrained peasants should be able to consistently beat a hundred trained marines just because of sheer numbers. Use your brain — preparation, coordination, and skill are supposed to matter.

I already said I don’t ask to consistently beat a larger group but just for a way to kill them.

That a smaller ballgroup can beat a larger ballgroup with help of a zerg is no option or help for non-members of ballgroups.

The marines should have the skills to avoid getting mortally wounded but not survive getting shot in the chest many times without bulletproof vest than kill the peasant by a glancing shot scratching his finger.

You took that parallel way too literally. The point wasn’t to run a military sim, it was dumbed down so even people like you could understand: coordination and skill matter, and they carry far more weight than anything a single pug can put out.

And let’s not pretend solos contribute nothing — you do contribute against a ball group, you just don’t feel it because it’s minimal. Why? Because you didn’t put in the same time, effort, and coordination that the ball group invests into min-maxing comps and perfecting execution. That’s the difference.

You took from that parallel only what fits your agenda and ignore the part contradicting it expecting me to do the same.
Finding that contradiction is taking it too literal for you, others are only allowed to use the part that supports your agenda.
Am I too dumb to understand your arguments (if not dumbed down) or not dumb enaugh to believe them.
While coordination and skill should and do matter ballgroups get even more of their strength from groupbuilds enabling godmode.
Contribution too minimal too feel it is nearly nothing and makes fighting ballgroups or PvP at all when they are everywhere senseless.
Soloplayers also invest time into min-maxing their builds and perfecting their execution and coordination but can’t coordinate with players that are non existent or always changing.

Alright, let’s dumb this down to your level and go back to the example. A thousand peasants would never defeat a hundred trained US Marines in any realistic modern warfare scenario. Surprised I even have to spell that out for you, but here we are.

Yes, the peasants (you) can “optimize” their setup all they want, but they still wouldn’t be able to take on the Marines (the 12-man ball group), even if they outnumber them 5 to 1, unless the Marines make a huge mistake. And that’s exactly how it should be.

You keep crying as a solo player in an MMO about groups existing, but if you actually believe you can min-max your builds so well, then grab a few friends and build a proper 4–5 man comp. Zerg down a ball group and see how far you get.

I didn’t say that thousand peasants would defeat a hundred trained US Marines. I said that if a peasant managed to shoot a marine multiple times in the chest (which is normally deadly without bulletproof vest) it would still kill the marine because he is still a human beeing not a Terminator T-1000(liquid metal).
Thanks to his training the marine should be able to avoid getting hit in the chest except he makes a huge mistake and such a thing will happen very rarely.
However ballgroups get hit by the equivalent of a shot to the chest all the time not even bothering to avoid it because it will instantly heal and only vaporization will kill them.
They make huge mistake all the time without consequences.
In vengeance you also have coordination and skill so if you think all your strength comes from it than try how strong you are without your godmode builds.

If the peasents have optimized their setup and trained for years how to use it they are not peasents anymore but elite soldiers like the marines (except they are not same unit).

Iriidius

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

If you could stack heals in a group you could at least try to coordinate fight back against a zerg.

That's just stacking heals to stall out a fight without killing anyone, like the ball groups on Live, and what the large raid guilds on Vengeance are doing. Their raw numbers flip flags, as opposed to a ball group circling the roof for 40 minutes.

What any large scale PvP needs is for solos/casuals/zergs to be able to put out enough damage to win outnumbered, without the need for the outside-game logistics and hard structure demanded by running in comp groups. This could potentially be accomplished by say, removing offensive AoE caps and restoring the lingering ground AoE on Meatbags.

Your point is lacking any real logical sense. You do this on every thread where you complain about the same things over and over and nothing is ever done to nerf it but you don't really ever take it as a sign. You want people to be able to kill COORDINATED GROUPS, while the lesser groups that aren't a ball group are NOT COORDINATED and also HAVE LESS PEOPOLE. Skills and sets like this already exist to benefit players when they are out numbered. There is no way to make smaller groups able to consistently kill bigger more coordinated groups without breaking the game entirely.

I mean just think of it, it doesn't make sense. Smaller groups can already beat better groups that are stacking heals if the player number isn't extremely significant. If the player number is extremely significant ex. 4v12, and the skill level of the players is similar, it would make zero sense for the 4 to consistently be able to beat the 12. When I go out with my group and I engage groups much bigger than ours, where the players are also skilled, we are aware we are not supposed to win every single engage, that's just what happens.

If you nerf heals or cross heals to a certain number, all you are doing is making that cap the next "ballgroup" number. Groups used to go up to 24 and were much worse, both on the server and for the health of the game's balance. A 12 man group isn't even that bad. Groups of 24 pugs should be able to deal with it unless they are just not great at the game, and guess what, if they aren't great they shouldn't win.

There isn't a logical proposal ever brought up when you engage on this topic, and you do it daily, for hours on end.

In addition, only bad ballgroups just heal stack and don't do anything. My group consistently fights and kills the biggest and best ballgroups in the game. Ballgroups always fight each other and one usually ends up winning. Stalling and perma fighting only happens with zergs who sit there and res each other over and over, which creates more lag than any ballgroup ever will, and no ballgroup ever complains about that lack of balance because guess what, it's just what happens where there are too many people. People aren't asking for ressing to be nerfed so it can't continue the way it does , but that is way healthier for the game than anything else proposed.

Nothing is ever done because devs don’t play PvP against ballgroups and ballgroups lobby against any nerfs successfully and make all other playstiles quit until they are only ones left(also in forum).

Noone is asking for smaller group to beat a larger more coordinated group consistently but there should be a way to do it at all.
If you trade blows with a larger group you loose even if they don’t have crosshealing but if you catch and burst them offguard or oil them they shouldn’t get saved by shared effects when otherwise they would have died.
IRL beeing in a larger group doesn’t protect you from lethal dmg but having larger number is still a usually decisive advantage in fights.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

This is exactly the situation that a ballgroup would be able to break on live.

Solos/pugs need to be able to break these situations or the game dies, as Live has proved.

No, an uncoordinated group should not be able to consistently beat or even seriously disrupt a coordinated larger force. That makes absolutely zero logical sense.

A small coordinated group, however, especially when fighting within a zerg, absolutely can disrupt and even kill 12-man ball groups if they build and coordinate properly. But explain to me how it makes any sense for a random pug running their solo YouTube build to deal lethal damage on their own to a group that has spent far more time and effort min-maxing comps, perfecting roles, and drilling execution specifically to have a competitive advantage.

That’s like saying a thousand untrained peasants should be able to consistently beat a hundred trained marines just because of sheer numbers. Use your brain — preparation, coordination, and skill are supposed to matter.

I already said I don’t ask to consistently beat a larger group but just for a way to kill them.

That a smaller ballgroup can beat a larger ballgroup with help of a zerg is no option or help for non-members of ballgroups.

The marines should have the skills to avoid getting mortally wounded but not survive getting shot in the chest many times without bulletproof vest than kill the peasant by a glancing shot scratching his finger.

You took that parallel way too literally. The point wasn’t to run a military sim, it was dumbed down so even people like you could understand: coordination and skill matter, and they carry far more weight than anything a single pug can put out.

And let’s not pretend solos contribute nothing — you do contribute against a ball group, you just don’t feel it because it’s minimal. Why? Because you didn’t put in the same time, effort, and coordination that the ball group invests into min-maxing comps and perfecting execution. That’s the difference.

You took from that parallel only what fits your agenda and ignore the part contradicting it expecting me to do the same.
Finding that contradiction is taking it too literal for you, others are only allowed to use the part that supports your agenda.
Am I too dumb to understand your arguments (if not dumbed down) or not dumb enaugh to believe them.
While coordination and skill should and do matter ballgroups get even more of their strength from groupbuilds enabling godmode.
Contribution too minimal too feel it is nearly nothing and makes fighting ballgroups or PvP at all when they are everywhere senseless.
Soloplayers also invest time into min-maxing their builds and perfecting their execution and coordination but can’t coordinate with players that are non existent or always changing.

Alright, let’s dumb this down to your level and go back to the example. A thousand peasants would never defeat a hundred trained US Marines in any realistic modern warfare scenario. Surprised I even have to spell that out for you, but here we are.

Yes, the peasants (you) can “optimize” their setup all they want, but they still wouldn’t be able to take on the Marines (the 12-man ball group), even if they outnumber them 5 to 1, unless the Marines make a huge mistake. And that’s exactly how it should be.

You keep crying as a solo player in an MMO about groups existing, but if you actually believe you can min-max your builds so well, then grab a few friends and build a proper 4–5 man comp. Zerg down a ball group and see how far you get.

Making my own group solves problem only for my group while playing as one but make it even worse for any other solo players.
Most members would probably would rather farm unorganized players themselves than prevent other group from doing so as groups don’t fight each other. I want prevent bullying solo players not participate in it.

I have tried making my own group because it is the only way to not get zerged out of game and killed some zergs and smallscales even without group builds in the rare cases I found enaugh players but finally gave up because I could not find enaugh players to make group not to mention regular ones. Playing in group without groupbuilds makes you stronger than without enaugh to do it without sozial reasons but much less than a group with group builds that you are still changeless against.

My friends are either playing in other groups, changed faction, don’t want guildraid regular or with voicechat, are casuals, don’t like each other, unavailable for other reasons or quitted whole game or PvP because it is in decline.

I also played in some guilds but it was boring and my schedule incompatible and I met so toxic people I don’t want meet new ones.
For most of these guild I made groupbuilds.
None of the above reasons have anything to do with being bad at minmaxing or playing.

Iriidius

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Telel wrote: »

So the takeaway from the OP's post is this.

1) When given the opportunity a lot of people are going to go and do the very thing certain 'pro streamers' have been doing on Gray Host for a long time now. That is run off to the red team so they can gate camp whomever is getting zerged down. After all easy mode makes them feel accomplished, and avoids the risk of ...'losing'.

2) Cyrodiil is in dire need of a revamp to its reward system. Hardcore scrubbery like this is incentivized while choosing the harder more challenging path is punished. Which just leads to ever increasing levels of toxicity, effective obliteration of competition, and a loss of players with a sense of sportsmanship.

SO I must once again point out that a more dynamic AP rewarding system is needed. Imagine how things would be if faction stacking and gate camping the 1 bar team lead to 0 AP for the 'winners' and a lot of AP and other rewards for those playing on hard more.

It'd definitely assist in separating the good players from those who just want to be be trolls, and or leech easy AP.

I have no earthly idea why ZOS has not changed the incentive and buff structure to reward underdog factions in all of like the 11 or whatever years of the game's existence.

On my literal very first day in Cyrodiil aeons ago, my first thought was, "Wait, why is the winning side buffed for bullying the other sides, this seems stupid." From the jump, the win-harder mechanics of Cyrodiil have never made any sense.

This is like blindingly obvious to anyone who spends time there. Underpopulated factions need buffs not nerfs. Or at the very least they need massive rewards to induce them to affirmatively choose Hard Mode PvP over mindless bandwagoning.

Buffing the strongest faction with most player is increasing their advantag encouraging the strongest faction to dominate the whole map.
If they would give the outnumbered faction a high enaugh buff(make everyone emperor or stronger) to stats they could compensate any number advantage giving both factions close fights and encouraging the players to change from the faction with most players to one with less.

Rewarding higher numbers and strength is absurd when they already give you decisive advantage without.

TheAwesomeChimpanzee

Iriidius wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

If you could stack heals in a group you could at least try to coordinate fight back against a zerg.

That's just stacking heals to stall out a fight without killing anyone, like the ball groups on Live, and what the large raid guilds on Vengeance are doing. Their raw numbers flip flags, as opposed to a ball group circling the roof for 40 minutes.

What any large scale PvP needs is for solos/casuals/zergs to be able to put out enough damage to win outnumbered, without the need for the outside-game logistics and hard structure demanded by running in comp groups. This could potentially be accomplished by say, removing offensive AoE caps and restoring the lingering ground AoE on Meatbags.

Your point is lacking any real logical sense. You do this on every thread where you complain about the same things over and over and nothing is ever done to nerf it but you don't really ever take it as a sign. You want people to be able to kill COORDINATED GROUPS, while the lesser groups that aren't a ball group are NOT COORDINATED and also HAVE LESS PEOPOLE. Skills and sets like this already exist to benefit players when they are out numbered. There is no way to make smaller groups able to consistently kill bigger more coordinated groups without breaking the game entirely.

I mean just think of it, it doesn't make sense. Smaller groups can already beat better groups that are stacking heals if the player number isn't extremely significant. If the player number is extremely significant ex. 4v12, and the skill level of the players is similar, it would make zero sense for the 4 to consistently be able to beat the 12. When I go out with my group and I engage groups much bigger than ours, where the players are also skilled, we are aware we are not supposed to win every single engage, that's just what happens.

If you nerf heals or cross heals to a certain number, all you are doing is making that cap the next "ballgroup" number. Groups used to go up to 24 and were much worse, both on the server and for the health of the game's balance. A 12 man group isn't even that bad. Groups of 24 pugs should be able to deal with it unless they are just not great at the game, and guess what, if they aren't great they shouldn't win.

There isn't a logical proposal ever brought up when you engage on this topic, and you do it daily, for hours on end.

In addition, only bad ballgroups just heal stack and don't do anything. My group consistently fights and kills the biggest and best ballgroups in the game. Ballgroups always fight each other and one usually ends up winning. Stalling and perma fighting only happens with zergs who sit there and res each other over and over, which creates more lag than any ballgroup ever will, and no ballgroup ever complains about that lack of balance because guess what, it's just what happens where there are too many people. People aren't asking for ressing to be nerfed so it can't continue the way it does , but that is way healthier for the game than anything else proposed.

Nothing is ever done because devs don’t play PvP against ballgroups and ballgroups lobby against any nerfs successfully and make all other playstiles quit until they are only ones left(also in forum).

Noone is asking for smaller group to beat a larger more coordinated group consistently but there should be a way to do it at all.
If you trade blows with a larger group you loose even if they don’t have crosshealing but if you catch and burst them offguard or oil them they shouldn’t get saved by shared effects when otherwise they would have died.
IRL beeing in a larger group doesn’t protect you from lethal dmg but having larger number is still a usually decisive advantage in fights.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

This is exactly the situation that a ballgroup would be able to break on live.

Solos/pugs need to be able to break these situations or the game dies, as Live has proved.

No, an uncoordinated group should not be able to consistently beat or even seriously disrupt a coordinated larger force. That makes absolutely zero logical sense.

A small coordinated group, however, especially when fighting within a zerg, absolutely can disrupt and even kill 12-man ball groups if they build and coordinate properly. But explain to me how it makes any sense for a random pug running their solo YouTube build to deal lethal damage on their own to a group that has spent far more time and effort min-maxing comps, perfecting roles, and drilling execution specifically to have a competitive advantage.

That’s like saying a thousand untrained peasants should be able to consistently beat a hundred trained marines just because of sheer numbers. Use your brain — preparation, coordination, and skill are supposed to matter.

I already said I don’t ask to consistently beat a larger group but just for a way to kill them.

That a smaller ballgroup can beat a larger ballgroup with help of a zerg is no option or help for non-members of ballgroups.

The marines should have the skills to avoid getting mortally wounded but not survive getting shot in the chest many times without bulletproof vest than kill the peasant by a glancing shot scratching his finger.

You took that parallel way too literally. The point wasn’t to run a military sim, it was dumbed down so even people like you could understand: coordination and skill matter, and they carry far more weight than anything a single pug can put out.

And let’s not pretend solos contribute nothing — you do contribute against a ball group, you just don’t feel it because it’s minimal. Why? Because you didn’t put in the same time, effort, and coordination that the ball group invests into min-maxing comps and perfecting execution. That’s the difference.

You took from that parallel only what fits your agenda and ignore the part contradicting it expecting me to do the same.
Finding that contradiction is taking it too literal for you, others are only allowed to use the part that supports your agenda.
Am I too dumb to understand your arguments (if not dumbed down) or not dumb enaugh to believe them.
While coordination and skill should and do matter ballgroups get even more of their strength from groupbuilds enabling godmode.
Contribution too minimal too feel it is nearly nothing and makes fighting ballgroups or PvP at all when they are everywhere senseless.
Soloplayers also invest time into min-maxing their builds and perfecting their execution and coordination but can’t coordinate with players that are non existent or always changing.

Alright, let’s dumb this down to your level and go back to the example. A thousand peasants would never defeat a hundred trained US Marines in any realistic modern warfare scenario. Surprised I even have to spell that out for you, but here we are.

Yes, the peasants (you) can “optimize” their setup all they want, but they still wouldn’t be able to take on the Marines (the 12-man ball group), even if they outnumber them 5 to 1, unless the Marines make a huge mistake. And that’s exactly how it should be.

You keep crying as a solo player in an MMO about groups existing, but if you actually believe you can min-max your builds so well, then grab a few friends and build a proper 4–5 man comp. Zerg down a ball group and see how far you get.

Making my own group solves problem only for my group while playing as one but make it even worse for any other solo players.
Most members would probably would rather farm unorganized players themselves than prevent other group from doing so as groups don’t fight each other. I want prevent bullying solo players not participate in it.

I have tried making my own group because it is the only way to not get zerged out of game and killed some zergs and smallscales even without group builds in the rare cases I found enaugh players but finally gave up because I could not find enaugh players to make group not to mention regular ones. Playing in group without groupbuilds makes you stronger than without enaugh to do it without sozial reasons but much less than a group with group builds that you are still changeless against.

My friends are either playing in other groups, changed faction, don’t want guildraid regular or with voicechat, are casuals, don’t like each other, unavailable for other reasons or quitted whole game or PvP because it is in decline.

I also played in some guilds but it was boring and my schedule incompatible and I met so toxic people I don’t want meet new ones.
For most of these guild I made groupbuilds.
None of the above reasons have anything to do with being bad at minmaxing or playing.

This will be the last time I reply to you on this because I’m done going in circles with someone who clearly struggles to grasp even the basics of what’s being said. The only reason I brought up that scenario was to draw a comparison between highly optimized teamwork versus what any single individual can achieve alone. Whether it’s war efforts, sports, a job, or videogames, you’ll always see that well-spent time with coordination and teamwork will prevail over individual effort. That’s literally how humans function and why we’ve advanced as far as we have. I hope one day you can finally catch on to that and understand why you’re getting farmed on the top floor over and over again.

And just to clarify: the war example is a general comparison. ESO is not modern warfare, but just like in warfare or any other coordinated practice, optimized teamwork will always defeat a mediocre peasant-like effort on its own. That’s the reality you keep refusing to accept. Good luck with that.

Alchimiste1

To all the people talking about ball groups I just want to say: I’m not reading all that.

More importantly, all my homies hate ball groups.

Stamicka

PvP is dead you mean. Whether it’s Grey Host, BGs, Imperial City, or now Vengeance, population is extremely low. Not even Whitestrake’s Mayhem can bring more people in.

I appreciate that they are at least trying something with Vengeance. My hope is that they actually expand on it by using it as a new foundation for PvP. Judging by the past, the chances of this working out are slim.

The chances that they will “fix” PvP as it is now are even lower though. The hole just keeps getting deeper and deeper. There’s so much that needs changing in Non-Vengeance PvP that they might as well tear it all down and start fresh. Of course such drastic changes would heavily impact PvE which is likely why they won’t do it.

Vengeance as it is now is in a rough state. It’s too simple and the healing is way too high. Beyond that, it’s an environment that isn’t restricted by PvE balancing. There’s tons of potential there and it really could be the way forward to fix PvP.

Unfortunately, this assumes that the developers will make the necessary changes and additions to get it to where it needs to be. Nothing leads me to believe this will actually happen.

Vengeance or no Vengeance, I don’t think PvP will go in a positive direction with the current leadership.

xR3ACTORx

I think the majority of players have spoken about vengeance by not participating in vengeance.

Thank God vengeance is over now.

Iriidius

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

If you could stack heals in a group you could at least try to coordinate fight back against a zerg.

That's just stacking heals to stall out a fight without killing anyone, like the ball groups on Live, and what the large raid guilds on Vengeance are doing. Their raw numbers flip flags, as opposed to a ball group circling the roof for 40 minutes.

What any large scale PvP needs is for solos/casuals/zergs to be able to put out enough damage to win outnumbered, without the need for the outside-game logistics and hard structure demanded by running in comp groups. This could potentially be accomplished by say, removing offensive AoE caps and restoring the lingering ground AoE on Meatbags.

Your point is lacking any real logical sense. You do this on every thread where you complain about the same things over and over and nothing is ever done to nerf it but you don't really ever take it as a sign. You want people to be able to kill COORDINATED GROUPS, while the lesser groups that aren't a ball group are NOT COORDINATED and also HAVE LESS PEOPOLE. Skills and sets like this already exist to benefit players when they are out numbered. There is no way to make smaller groups able to consistently kill bigger more coordinated groups without breaking the game entirely.

I mean just think of it, it doesn't make sense. Smaller groups can already beat better groups that are stacking heals if the player number isn't extremely significant. If the player number is extremely significant ex. 4v12, and the skill level of the players is similar, it would make zero sense for the 4 to consistently be able to beat the 12. When I go out with my group and I engage groups much bigger than ours, where the players are also skilled, we are aware we are not supposed to win every single engage, that's just what happens.

If you nerf heals or cross heals to a certain number, all you are doing is making that cap the next "ballgroup" number. Groups used to go up to 24 and were much worse, both on the server and for the health of the game's balance. A 12 man group isn't even that bad. Groups of 24 pugs should be able to deal with it unless they are just not great at the game, and guess what, if they aren't great they shouldn't win.

There isn't a logical proposal ever brought up when you engage on this topic, and you do it daily, for hours on end.

In addition, only bad ballgroups just heal stack and don't do anything. My group consistently fights and kills the biggest and best ballgroups in the game. Ballgroups always fight each other and one usually ends up winning. Stalling and perma fighting only happens with zergs who sit there and res each other over and over, which creates more lag than any ballgroup ever will, and no ballgroup ever complains about that lack of balance because guess what, it's just what happens where there are too many people. People aren't asking for ressing to be nerfed so it can't continue the way it does , but that is way healthier for the game than anything else proposed.

Nothing is ever done because devs don’t play PvP against ballgroups and ballgroups lobby against any nerfs successfully and make all other playstiles quit until they are only ones left(also in forum).

Noone is asking for smaller group to beat a larger more coordinated group consistently but there should be a way to do it at all.
If you trade blows with a larger group you loose even if they don’t have crosshealing but if you catch and burst them offguard or oil them they shouldn’t get saved by shared effects when otherwise they would have died.
IRL beeing in a larger group doesn’t protect you from lethal dmg but having larger number is still a usually decisive advantage in fights.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

This is exactly the situation that a ballgroup would be able to break on live.

Solos/pugs need to be able to break these situations or the game dies, as Live has proved.

No, an uncoordinated group should not be able to consistently beat or even seriously disrupt a coordinated larger force. That makes absolutely zero logical sense.

A small coordinated group, however, especially when fighting within a zerg, absolutely can disrupt and even kill 12-man ball groups if they build and coordinate properly. But explain to me how it makes any sense for a random pug running their solo YouTube build to deal lethal damage on their own to a group that has spent far more time and effort min-maxing comps, perfecting roles, and drilling execution specifically to have a competitive advantage.

That’s like saying a thousand untrained peasants should be able to consistently beat a hundred trained marines just because of sheer numbers. Use your brain — preparation, coordination, and skill are supposed to matter.

I already said I don’t ask to consistently beat a larger group but just for a way to kill them.

That a smaller ballgroup can beat a larger ballgroup with help of a zerg is no option or help for non-members of ballgroups.

The marines should have the skills to avoid getting mortally wounded but not survive getting shot in the chest many times without bulletproof vest than kill the peasant by a glancing shot scratching his finger.

You took that parallel way too literally. The point wasn’t to run a military sim, it was dumbed down so even people like you could understand: coordination and skill matter, and they carry far more weight than anything a single pug can put out.

And let’s not pretend solos contribute nothing — you do contribute against a ball group, you just don’t feel it because it’s minimal. Why? Because you didn’t put in the same time, effort, and coordination that the ball group invests into min-maxing comps and perfecting execution. That’s the difference.

You took from that parallel only what fits your agenda and ignore the part contradicting it expecting me to do the same.
Finding that contradiction is taking it too literal for you, others are only allowed to use the part that supports your agenda.
Am I too dumb to understand your arguments (if not dumbed down) or not dumb enaugh to believe them.
While coordination and skill should and do matter ballgroups get even more of their strength from groupbuilds enabling godmode.
Contribution too minimal too feel it is nearly nothing and makes fighting ballgroups or PvP at all when they are everywhere senseless.
Soloplayers also invest time into min-maxing their builds and perfecting their execution and coordination but can’t coordinate with players that are non existent or always changing.

Alright, let’s dumb this down to your level and go back to the example. A thousand peasants would never defeat a hundred trained US Marines in any realistic modern warfare scenario. Surprised I even have to spell that out for you, but here we are.

Yes, the peasants (you) can “optimize” their setup all they want, but they still wouldn’t be able to take on the Marines (the 12-man ball group), even if they outnumber them 5 to 1, unless the Marines make a huge mistake. And that’s exactly how it should be.

You keep crying as a solo player in an MMO about groups existing, but if you actually believe you can min-max your builds so well, then grab a few friends and build a proper 4–5 man comp. Zerg down a ball group and see how far you get.

Making my own group solves problem only for my group while playing as one but make it even worse for any other solo players.
Most members would probably would rather farm unorganized players themselves than prevent other group from doing so as groups don’t fight each other. I want prevent bullying solo players not participate in it.

I have tried making my own group because it is the only way to not get zerged out of game and killed some zergs and smallscales even without group builds in the rare cases I found enaugh players but finally gave up because I could not find enaugh players to make group not to mention regular ones. Playing in group without groupbuilds makes you stronger than without enaugh to do it without sozial reasons but much less than a group with group builds that you are still changeless against.

My friends are either playing in other groups, changed faction, don’t want guildraid regular or with voicechat, are casuals, don’t like each other, unavailable for other reasons or quitted whole game or PvP because it is in decline.

I also played in some guilds but it was boring and my schedule incompatible and I met so toxic people I don’t want meet new ones.
For most of these guild I made groupbuilds.
None of the above reasons have anything to do with being bad at minmaxing or playing.

This will be the last time I reply to you on this because I’m done going in circles with someone who clearly struggles to grasp even the basics of what’s being said. The only reason I brought up that scenario was to draw a comparison between highly optimized teamwork versus what any single individual can achieve alone. Whether it’s war efforts, sports, a job, or videogames, you’ll always see that well-spent time with coordination and teamwork will prevail over individual effort. That’s literally how humans function and why we’ve advanced as far as we have. I hope one day you can finally catch on to that and understand why you’re getting farmed on the top floor over and over again.

And just to clarify: the war example is a general comparison. ESO is not modern warfare, but just like in warfare or any other coordinated practice, optimized teamwork will always defeat a mediocre peasant-like effort on its own. That’s the reality you keep refusing to accept. Good luck with that.

You are the one not understanding that the big advantage teamwork/coordination give is artificially multiplied by ZOS allowing players to share seteffects/buffs/heals/shields with their whole group.

Let’s not pretend you are generous for replying to my comments when you just keep calling me dumb and repeating the same argument I already countered to defend your carry builds and ego.
Meanwhile I replied to all of your arguments.

If optimized teamwork will always defeat a mediocre peasant-like effort on its own than why are ballgroups complaining about lack of crosshealing and encouragement to play in group? Probably because the big advantage teamwork gives you without all the multitarget buffsets/sets/heals is not big enaugh.

TheAwesomeChimpanzee

Enaugh

RaidingTraiding

Artisian0001 wrote: »

RaidingTraiding wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

People shouting their complaints into the void about solo play like this is a single player RPG and as if vengeance wasn't made with much smaller target caps to prioritize them, and now it's dead. Almost like I've said a thousand times, people who complain don't even know what they want or what they are complaining about.

Smaller target caps don't benefit solo players, they benefit large groups. That's just common sense.

How is that common sense when the large groups can't heal all their group members effectively? Vengeance is made to incentivize people to stop grouping in such large amounts and branch out. That's common sense Players just refuse to strop grouping.

They don't need to heal all their group members effectively if the players trying to damage them can't choose who they're damaging.

Heals in Vengeance are, for the most part, targeted heals or smart heals. That means you're either manually selecting low health players or the game is selecting low health players for you.

AoE Damage skills in Vengeance are simply choosing 3 players at random. There is no way to focus the low health pockets of players with AoE skills, which heavily incentivises stacking in a zerg.

The attacking solo player will spam their AoE skills and damage people at random, while the Zerg will spam AoE heals and heal only the people that need it the most.

Let's say you're in a small man trying to bomb a Zerg. Your 4 man group perfectly lines up your ultimates and skills right on top of a zerg, except you don't kill anyone because the game decided that each person in your group should damage different players in the zerg at random. The zerg spams AoE heals like the Necro corpse heal, and suddenly all the people that took damage are back up to full because only the people that needed healing were healed.

To actually incentivise solo/small man, heals should be capped and damage skills should be uncapped OR AoE damage skills should prioritize low health targets the same way that AoE heals do.

You are just lying to try to win a point. The AoE targeting on damage isn't random. I know you mainly play BGs but you can at least be truthful in what you're saying. This is why everything on the forums gets ignored when people complain, they just lie about how the game functions.

Who's lying here? That's exactly how it works. This is one of the main gripes with vengeance and why it is so zerg friendly. You can coordinate aoe ult dumps with a group but you hardly kill anyone because of this very reason. Everyone else hits different targets, even your skills hit different targets, then they just heal up. It's completely useless against zergs. How can you burst down targets if most targets are immune to a lot of your damage because of caps?

If you think AoE targeting is random you just don't care to know how the game works. Calling it random is just uninformed and unskilled. Learn the game.

By all means please enlighten us unskilled players. I saw someone else answered but I wanted to hear the correct answer, one from a reputable source, someone as skilled as yourself who has learned the game. For all I know this guy is also uninformed.

And please don't misunderstand, I do care how the game works, I just never had the opportunity to have been graced with your knowledge.

Joy_Division

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

If you could stack heals in a group you could at least try to coordinate fight back against a zerg.

That's just stacking heals to stall out a fight without killing anyone, like the ball groups on Live, and what the large raid guilds on Vengeance are doing. Their raw numbers flip flags, as opposed to a ball group circling the roof for 40 minutes.

What any large scale PvP needs is for solos/casuals/zergs to be able to put out enough damage to win outnumbered, without the need for the outside-game logistics and hard structure demanded by running in comp groups. This could potentially be accomplished by say, removing offensive AoE caps and restoring the lingering ground AoE on Meatbags.

Your point is lacking any real logical sense. You do this on every thread where you complain about the same things over and over and nothing is ever done to nerf it but you don't really ever take it as a sign. You want people to be able to kill COORDINATED GROUPS, while the lesser groups that aren't a ball group are NOT COORDINATED and also HAVE LESS PEOPOLE. Skills and sets like this already exist to benefit players when they are out numbered. There is no way to make smaller groups able to consistently kill bigger more coordinated groups without breaking the game entirely.

I mean just think of it, it doesn't make sense. Smaller groups can already beat better groups that are stacking heals if the player number isn't extremely significant. If the player number is extremely significant ex. 4v12, and the skill level of the players is similar, it would make zero sense for the 4 to consistently be able to beat the 12. When I go out with my group and I engage groups much bigger than ours, where the players are also skilled, we are aware we are not supposed to win every single engage, that's just what happens.

If you nerf heals or cross heals to a certain number, all you are doing is making that cap the next "ballgroup" number. Groups used to go up to 24 and were much worse, both on the server and for the health of the game's balance. A 12 man group isn't even that bad. Groups of 24 pugs should be able to deal with it unless they are just not great at the game, and guess what, if they aren't great they shouldn't win.

There isn't a logical proposal ever brought up when you engage on this topic, and you do it daily, for hours on end.

In addition, only bad ballgroups just heal stack and don't do anything. My group consistently fights and kills the biggest and best ballgroups in the game. Ballgroups always fight each other and one usually ends up winning. Stalling and perma fighting only happens with zergs who sit there and res each other over and over, which creates more lag than any ballgroup ever will, and no ballgroup ever complains about that lack of balance because guess what, it's just what happens where there are too many people. People aren't asking for ressing to be nerfed so it can't continue the way it does , but that is way healthier for the game than anything else proposed.

Nothing is ever done because devs don’t play PvP against ballgroups and ballgroups lobby against any nerfs successfully and make all other playstiles quit until they are only ones left(also in forum).

Noone is asking for smaller group to beat a larger more coordinated group consistently but there should be a way to do it at all.
If you trade blows with a larger group you loose even if they don’t have crosshealing but if you catch and burst them offguard or oil them they shouldn’t get saved by shared effects when otherwise they would have died.
IRL beeing in a larger group doesn’t protect you from lethal dmg but having larger number is still a usually decisive advantage in fights.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

This is exactly the situation that a ballgroup would be able to break on live.

Solos/pugs need to be able to break these situations or the game dies, as Live has proved.

No, an uncoordinated group should not be able to consistently beat or even seriously disrupt a coordinated larger force. That makes absolutely zero logical sense.

A small coordinated group, however, especially when fighting within a zerg, absolutely can disrupt and even kill 12-man ball groups if they build and coordinate properly. But explain to me how it makes any sense for a random pug running their solo YouTube build to deal lethal damage on their own to a group that has spent far more time and effort min-maxing comps, perfecting roles, and drilling execution specifically to have a competitive advantage.

That’s like saying a thousand untrained peasants should be able to consistently beat a hundred trained marines just because of sheer numbers. Use your brain — preparation, coordination, and skill are supposed to matter.

I already said I don’t ask to consistently beat a larger group but just for a way to kill them.

That a smaller ballgroup can beat a larger ballgroup with help of a zerg is no option or help for non-members of ballgroups.

The marines should have the skills to avoid getting mortally wounded but not survive getting shot in the chest many times without bulletproof vest than kill the peasant by a glancing shot scratching his finger.

You took that parallel way too literally. The point wasn’t to run a military sim, it was dumbed down so even people like you could understand: coordination and skill matter, and they carry far more weight than anything a single pug can put out.

And let’s not pretend solos contribute nothing — you do contribute against a ball group, you just don’t feel it because it’s minimal. Why? Because you didn’t put in the same time, effort, and coordination that the ball group invests into min-maxing comps and perfecting execution. That’s the difference.

You took from that parallel only what fits your agenda and ignore the part contradicting it expecting me to do the same.
Finding that contradiction is taking it too literal for you, others are only allowed to use the part that supports your agenda.
Am I too dumb to understand your arguments (if not dumbed down) or not dumb enaugh to believe them.
While coordination and skill should and do matter ballgroups get even more of their strength from groupbuilds enabling godmode.
Contribution too minimal too feel it is nearly nothing and makes fighting ballgroups or PvP at all when they are everywhere senseless.
Soloplayers also invest time into min-maxing their builds and perfecting their execution and coordination but can’t coordinate with players that are non existent or always changing.

Alright, let’s dumb this down to your level and go back to the example. A thousand peasants would never defeat a hundred trained US Marines in any realistic modern warfare scenario. Surprised I even have to spell that out for you, but here we are.

Yes, the peasants (you) can “optimize” their setup all they want, but they still wouldn’t be able to take on the Marines (the 12-man ball group), even if they outnumber them 5 to 1, unless the Marines make a huge mistake. And that’s exactly how it should be.

You keep crying as a solo player in an MMO about groups existing, but if you actually believe you can min-max your builds so well, then grab a few friends and build a proper 4–5 man comp. Zerg down a ball group and see how far you get.

No, don't dumb the analogy down because it's now ridiculous. There is no way in Oblvion the average ball group player is a trained marine skill level whereas the average solo is a press ganged peasant ( to say nothing that being in a ball group gives players a literal millennium of technological advancements).

Most of us accept that skill and coordination should give comped groups real advantages. What we object to are broken mechanics that allow Cyrodiil to play like a ball group are modern marines and everyone else a peasant.

MincMincMinc

Joy_Division wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

If you could stack heals in a group you could at least try to coordinate fight back against a zerg.

That's just stacking heals to stall out a fight without killing anyone, like the ball groups on Live, and what the large raid guilds on Vengeance are doing. Their raw numbers flip flags, as opposed to a ball group circling the roof for 40 minutes.

What any large scale PvP needs is for solos/casuals/zergs to be able to put out enough damage to win outnumbered, without the need for the outside-game logistics and hard structure demanded by running in comp groups. This could potentially be accomplished by say, removing offensive AoE caps and restoring the lingering ground AoE on Meatbags.

Your point is lacking any real logical sense. You do this on every thread where you complain about the same things over and over and nothing is ever done to nerf it but you don't really ever take it as a sign. You want people to be able to kill COORDINATED GROUPS, while the lesser groups that aren't a ball group are NOT COORDINATED and also HAVE LESS PEOPOLE. Skills and sets like this already exist to benefit players when they are out numbered. There is no way to make smaller groups able to consistently kill bigger more coordinated groups without breaking the game entirely.

I mean just think of it, it doesn't make sense. Smaller groups can already beat better groups that are stacking heals if the player number isn't extremely significant. If the player number is extremely significant ex. 4v12, and the skill level of the players is similar, it would make zero sense for the 4 to consistently be able to beat the 12. When I go out with my group and I engage groups much bigger than ours, where the players are also skilled, we are aware we are not supposed to win every single engage, that's just what happens.

If you nerf heals or cross heals to a certain number, all you are doing is making that cap the next "ballgroup" number. Groups used to go up to 24 and were much worse, both on the server and for the health of the game's balance. A 12 man group isn't even that bad. Groups of 24 pugs should be able to deal with it unless they are just not great at the game, and guess what, if they aren't great they shouldn't win.

There isn't a logical proposal ever brought up when you engage on this topic, and you do it daily, for hours on end.

In addition, only bad ballgroups just heal stack and don't do anything. My group consistently fights and kills the biggest and best ballgroups in the game. Ballgroups always fight each other and one usually ends up winning. Stalling and perma fighting only happens with zergs who sit there and res each other over and over, which creates more lag than any ballgroup ever will, and no ballgroup ever complains about that lack of balance because guess what, it's just what happens where there are too many people. People aren't asking for ressing to be nerfed so it can't continue the way it does , but that is way healthier for the game than anything else proposed.

Nothing is ever done because devs don’t play PvP against ballgroups and ballgroups lobby against any nerfs successfully and make all other playstiles quit until they are only ones left(also in forum).

Noone is asking for smaller group to beat a larger more coordinated group consistently but there should be a way to do it at all.
If you trade blows with a larger group you loose even if they don’t have crosshealing but if you catch and burst them offguard or oil them they shouldn’t get saved by shared effects when otherwise they would have died.
IRL beeing in a larger group doesn’t protect you from lethal dmg but having larger number is still a usually decisive advantage in fights.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

This is exactly the situation that a ballgroup would be able to break on live.

Solos/pugs need to be able to break these situations or the game dies, as Live has proved.

No, an uncoordinated group should not be able to consistently beat or even seriously disrupt a coordinated larger force. That makes absolutely zero logical sense.

A small coordinated group, however, especially when fighting within a zerg, absolutely can disrupt and even kill 12-man ball groups if they build and coordinate properly. But explain to me how it makes any sense for a random pug running their solo YouTube build to deal lethal damage on their own to a group that has spent far more time and effort min-maxing comps, perfecting roles, and drilling execution specifically to have a competitive advantage.

That’s like saying a thousand untrained peasants should be able to consistently beat a hundred trained marines just because of sheer numbers. Use your brain — preparation, coordination, and skill are supposed to matter.

I already said I don’t ask to consistently beat a larger group but just for a way to kill them.

That a smaller ballgroup can beat a larger ballgroup with help of a zerg is no option or help for non-members of ballgroups.

The marines should have the skills to avoid getting mortally wounded but not survive getting shot in the chest many times without bulletproof vest than kill the peasant by a glancing shot scratching his finger.

You took that parallel way too literally. The point wasn’t to run a military sim, it was dumbed down so even people like you could understand: coordination and skill matter, and they carry far more weight than anything a single pug can put out.

And let’s not pretend solos contribute nothing — you do contribute against a ball group, you just don’t feel it because it’s minimal. Why? Because you didn’t put in the same time, effort, and coordination that the ball group invests into min-maxing comps and perfecting execution. That’s the difference.

You took from that parallel only what fits your agenda and ignore the part contradicting it expecting me to do the same.
Finding that contradiction is taking it too literal for you, others are only allowed to use the part that supports your agenda.
Am I too dumb to understand your arguments (if not dumbed down) or not dumb enaugh to believe them.
While coordination and skill should and do matter ballgroups get even more of their strength from groupbuilds enabling godmode.
Contribution too minimal too feel it is nearly nothing and makes fighting ballgroups or PvP at all when they are everywhere senseless.
Soloplayers also invest time into min-maxing their builds and perfecting their execution and coordination but can’t coordinate with players that are non existent or always changing.

Alright, let’s dumb this down to your level and go back to the example. A thousand peasants would never defeat a hundred trained US Marines in any realistic modern warfare scenario. Surprised I even have to spell that out for you, but here we are.

Yes, the peasants (you) can “optimize” their setup all they want, but they still wouldn’t be able to take on the Marines (the 12-man ball group), even if they outnumber them 5 to 1, unless the Marines make a huge mistake. And that’s exactly how it should be.

You keep crying as a solo player in an MMO about groups existing, but if you actually believe you can min-max your builds so well, then grab a few friends and build a proper 4–5 man comp. Zerg down a ball group and see how far you get.

No, don't dumb the analogy down because it's now ridiculous. There is no way in Oblvion the average ball group player is a trained marine skill level whereas the average solo is a press ganged peasant ( to say nothing that being in a ball group gives players a literal millennium of technological advancements).

Most of us accept that skill and coordination should give comped groups real advantages. What we object to are broken mechanics that allow Cyrodiil to play like a ball group are modern marines and everyone else a peasant.

Nothing more needs to be said past:

solo players get 5 piece sets worth 450wd on cooldowns

Group players get 5 piece sets worth 5k+wd with no cooldowns. "skill"

acastanza_ESO

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

If you could stack heals in a group you could at least try to coordinate fight back against a zerg.

That's just stacking heals to stall out a fight without killing anyone, like the ball groups on Live, and what the large raid guilds on Vengeance are doing. Their raw numbers flip flags, as opposed to a ball group circling the roof for 40 minutes.

What any large scale PvP needs is for solos/casuals/zergs to be able to put out enough damage to win outnumbered, without the need for the outside-game logistics and hard structure demanded by running in comp groups. This could potentially be accomplished by say, removing offensive AoE caps and restoring the lingering ground AoE on Meatbags.

Your point is lacking any real logical sense. You do this on every thread where you complain about the same things over and over and nothing is ever done to nerf it but you don't really ever take it as a sign. You want people to be able to kill COORDINATED GROUPS, while the lesser groups that aren't a ball group are NOT COORDINATED and also HAVE LESS PEOPOLE. Skills and sets like this already exist to benefit players when they are out numbered. There is no way to make smaller groups able to consistently kill bigger more coordinated groups without breaking the game entirely.

I mean just think of it, it doesn't make sense. Smaller groups can already beat better groups that are stacking heals if the player number isn't extremely significant. If the player number is extremely significant ex. 4v12, and the skill level of the players is similar, it would make zero sense for the 4 to consistently be able to beat the 12. When I go out with my group and I engage groups much bigger than ours, where the players are also skilled, we are aware we are not supposed to win every single engage, that's just what happens.

If you nerf heals or cross heals to a certain number, all you are doing is making that cap the next "ballgroup" number. Groups used to go up to 24 and were much worse, both on the server and for the health of the game's balance. A 12 man group isn't even that bad. Groups of 24 pugs should be able to deal with it unless they are just not great at the game, and guess what, if they aren't great they shouldn't win.

There isn't a logical proposal ever brought up when you engage on this topic, and you do it daily, for hours on end.

In addition, only bad ballgroups just heal stack and don't do anything. My group consistently fights and kills the biggest and best ballgroups in the game. Ballgroups always fight each other and one usually ends up winning. Stalling and perma fighting only happens with zergs who sit there and res each other over and over, which creates more lag than any ballgroup ever will, and no ballgroup ever complains about that lack of balance because guess what, it's just what happens where there are too many people. People aren't asking for ressing to be nerfed so it can't continue the way it does , but that is way healthier for the game than anything else proposed.

Nothing is ever done because devs don’t play PvP against ballgroups and ballgroups lobby against any nerfs successfully and make all other playstiles quit until they are only ones left(also in forum).

Noone is asking for smaller group to beat a larger more coordinated group consistently but there should be a way to do it at all.
If you trade blows with a larger group you loose even if they don’t have crosshealing but if you catch and burst them offguard or oil them they shouldn’t get saved by shared effects when otherwise they would have died.
IRL beeing in a larger group doesn’t protect you from lethal dmg but having larger number is still a usually decisive advantage in fights.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

This is exactly the situation that a ballgroup would be able to break on live.

Solos/pugs need to be able to break these situations or the game dies, as Live has proved.

No, an uncoordinated group should not be able to consistently beat or even seriously disrupt a coordinated larger force. That makes absolutely zero logical sense.

A small coordinated group, however, especially when fighting within a zerg, absolutely can disrupt and even kill 12-man ball groups if they build and coordinate properly. But explain to me how it makes any sense for a random pug running their solo YouTube build to deal lethal damage on their own to a group that has spent far more time and effort min-maxing comps, perfecting roles, and drilling execution specifically to have a competitive advantage.

That’s like saying a thousand untrained peasants should be able to consistently beat a hundred trained marines just because of sheer numbers. Use your brain — preparation, coordination, and skill are supposed to matter.

I already said I don’t ask to consistently beat a larger group but just for a way to kill them.

That a smaller ballgroup can beat a larger ballgroup with help of a zerg is no option or help for non-members of ballgroups.

The marines should have the skills to avoid getting mortally wounded but not survive getting shot in the chest many times without bulletproof vest than kill the peasant by a glancing shot scratching his finger.

You took that parallel way too literally. The point wasn’t to run a military sim, it was dumbed down so even people like you could understand: coordination and skill matter, and they carry far more weight than anything a single pug can put out.

And let’s not pretend solos contribute nothing — you do contribute against a ball group, you just don’t feel it because it’s minimal. Why? Because you didn’t put in the same time, effort, and coordination that the ball group invests into min-maxing comps and perfecting execution. That’s the difference.

You took from that parallel only what fits your agenda and ignore the part contradicting it expecting me to do the same.
Finding that contradiction is taking it too literal for you, others are only allowed to use the part that supports your agenda.
Am I too dumb to understand your arguments (if not dumbed down) or not dumb enaugh to believe them.
While coordination and skill should and do matter ballgroups get even more of their strength from groupbuilds enabling godmode.
Contribution too minimal too feel it is nearly nothing and makes fighting ballgroups or PvP at all when they are everywhere senseless.
Soloplayers also invest time into min-maxing their builds and perfecting their execution and coordination but can’t coordinate with players that are non existent or always changing.

Alright, let’s dumb this down to your level and go back to the example. A thousand peasants would never defeat a hundred trained US Marines in any realistic modern warfare scenario. Surprised I even have to spell that out for you, but here we are.

Yes, the peasants (you) can “optimize” their setup all they want, but they still wouldn’t be able to take on the Marines (the 12-man ball group), even if they outnumber them 5 to 1, unless the Marines make a huge mistake. And that’s exactly how it should be.

You keep crying as a solo player in an MMO about groups existing, but if you actually believe you can min-max your builds so well, then grab a few friends and build a proper 4–5 man comp. Zerg down a ball group and see how far you get.

No, don't dumb the analogy down because it's now ridiculous. There is no way in Oblvion the average ball group player is a trained marine skill level whereas the average solo is a press ganged peasant ( to say nothing that being in a ball group gives players a literal millennium of technological advancements).

Most of us accept that skill and coordination should give comped groups real advantages. What we object to are broken mechanics that allow Cyrodiil to play like a ball group are modern marines and everyone else a peasant.

Nothing more needs to be said past:

solo players get 5 piece sets worth 450wd on cooldowns

Group players get 5 piece sets worth 5k+wd with no cooldowns. "skill"

Everyone has access to exactly the same sets. You choose to coordinate them or not. Blaming the people that do for the failures of the people that don't is an insane inability to understand the core concept of the game.

MincMincMinc

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

If you could stack heals in a group you could at least try to coordinate fight back against a zerg.

That's just stacking heals to stall out a fight without killing anyone, like the ball groups on Live, and what the large raid guilds on Vengeance are doing. Their raw numbers flip flags, as opposed to a ball group circling the roof for 40 minutes.

What any large scale PvP needs is for solos/casuals/zergs to be able to put out enough damage to win outnumbered, without the need for the outside-game logistics and hard structure demanded by running in comp groups. This could potentially be accomplished by say, removing offensive AoE caps and restoring the lingering ground AoE on Meatbags.

Your point is lacking any real logical sense. You do this on every thread where you complain about the same things over and over and nothing is ever done to nerf it but you don't really ever take it as a sign. You want people to be able to kill COORDINATED GROUPS, while the lesser groups that aren't a ball group are NOT COORDINATED and also HAVE LESS PEOPOLE. Skills and sets like this already exist to benefit players when they are out numbered. There is no way to make smaller groups able to consistently kill bigger more coordinated groups without breaking the game entirely.

I mean just think of it, it doesn't make sense. Smaller groups can already beat better groups that are stacking heals if the player number isn't extremely significant. If the player number is extremely significant ex. 4v12, and the skill level of the players is similar, it would make zero sense for the 4 to consistently be able to beat the 12. When I go out with my group and I engage groups much bigger than ours, where the players are also skilled, we are aware we are not supposed to win every single engage, that's just what happens.

If you nerf heals or cross heals to a certain number, all you are doing is making that cap the next "ballgroup" number. Groups used to go up to 24 and were much worse, both on the server and for the health of the game's balance. A 12 man group isn't even that bad. Groups of 24 pugs should be able to deal with it unless they are just not great at the game, and guess what, if they aren't great they shouldn't win.

There isn't a logical proposal ever brought up when you engage on this topic, and you do it daily, for hours on end.

In addition, only bad ballgroups just heal stack and don't do anything. My group consistently fights and kills the biggest and best ballgroups in the game. Ballgroups always fight each other and one usually ends up winning. Stalling and perma fighting only happens with zergs who sit there and res each other over and over, which creates more lag than any ballgroup ever will, and no ballgroup ever complains about that lack of balance because guess what, it's just what happens where there are too many people. People aren't asking for ressing to be nerfed so it can't continue the way it does , but that is way healthier for the game than anything else proposed.

Nothing is ever done because devs don’t play PvP against ballgroups and ballgroups lobby against any nerfs successfully and make all other playstiles quit until they are only ones left(also in forum).

Noone is asking for smaller group to beat a larger more coordinated group consistently but there should be a way to do it at all.
If you trade blows with a larger group you loose even if they don’t have crosshealing but if you catch and burst them offguard or oil them they shouldn’t get saved by shared effects when otherwise they would have died.
IRL beeing in a larger group doesn’t protect you from lethal dmg but having larger number is still a usually decisive advantage in fights.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

This is exactly the situation that a ballgroup would be able to break on live.

Solos/pugs need to be able to break these situations or the game dies, as Live has proved.

No, an uncoordinated group should not be able to consistently beat or even seriously disrupt a coordinated larger force. That makes absolutely zero logical sense.

A small coordinated group, however, especially when fighting within a zerg, absolutely can disrupt and even kill 12-man ball groups if they build and coordinate properly. But explain to me how it makes any sense for a random pug running their solo YouTube build to deal lethal damage on their own to a group that has spent far more time and effort min-maxing comps, perfecting roles, and drilling execution specifically to have a competitive advantage.

That’s like saying a thousand untrained peasants should be able to consistently beat a hundred trained marines just because of sheer numbers. Use your brain — preparation, coordination, and skill are supposed to matter.

I already said I don’t ask to consistently beat a larger group but just for a way to kill them.

That a smaller ballgroup can beat a larger ballgroup with help of a zerg is no option or help for non-members of ballgroups.

The marines should have the skills to avoid getting mortally wounded but not survive getting shot in the chest many times without bulletproof vest than kill the peasant by a glancing shot scratching his finger.

You took that parallel way too literally. The point wasn’t to run a military sim, it was dumbed down so even people like you could understand: coordination and skill matter, and they carry far more weight than anything a single pug can put out.

And let’s not pretend solos contribute nothing — you do contribute against a ball group, you just don’t feel it because it’s minimal. Why? Because you didn’t put in the same time, effort, and coordination that the ball group invests into min-maxing comps and perfecting execution. That’s the difference.

You took from that parallel only what fits your agenda and ignore the part contradicting it expecting me to do the same.
Finding that contradiction is taking it too literal for you, others are only allowed to use the part that supports your agenda.
Am I too dumb to understand your arguments (if not dumbed down) or not dumb enaugh to believe them.
While coordination and skill should and do matter ballgroups get even more of their strength from groupbuilds enabling godmode.
Contribution too minimal too feel it is nearly nothing and makes fighting ballgroups or PvP at all when they are everywhere senseless.
Soloplayers also invest time into min-maxing their builds and perfecting their execution and coordination but can’t coordinate with players that are non existent or always changing.

Alright, let’s dumb this down to your level and go back to the example. A thousand peasants would never defeat a hundred trained US Marines in any realistic modern warfare scenario. Surprised I even have to spell that out for you, but here we are.

Yes, the peasants (you) can “optimize” their setup all they want, but they still wouldn’t be able to take on the Marines (the 12-man ball group), even if they outnumber them 5 to 1, unless the Marines make a huge mistake. And that’s exactly how it should be.

You keep crying as a solo player in an MMO about groups existing, but if you actually believe you can min-max your builds so well, then grab a few friends and build a proper 4–5 man comp. Zerg down a ball group and see how far you get.

No, don't dumb the analogy down because it's now ridiculous. There is no way in Oblvion the average ball group player is a trained marine skill level whereas the average solo is a press ganged peasant ( to say nothing that being in a ball group gives players a literal millennium of technological advancements).

Most of us accept that skill and coordination should give comped groups real advantages. What we object to are broken mechanics that allow Cyrodiil to play like a ball group are modern marines and everyone else a peasant.

Nothing more needs to be said past:

solo players get 5 piece sets worth 450wd on cooldowns

Group players get 5 piece sets worth 5k+wd with no cooldowns. "skill"

Everyone has access to exactly the same sets. You choose to coordinate them or not. Blaming the people that do for the failures of the people that don't is an insane inability to understand the core concept of the game.

Ok so when I solo I should just multibox another 11 accounts so I can match the efficiency of another player that chooses to group? That sounds reasonable. I HAVE access to the sets and CAN wear them, the problem is that I will never get the same results from the set unless I am in a group.

If I wear olorime it is worth 430wd

If I wear olorime in a group it is worth 5160wd

For item sets this has just polarized a portion of the population so far beyond the other portion of the population.
1vX, solo, casual groups......... smallman, casual zergs..............................................Guild groups, ball groups.

---

Its just sad when we see ball groups claiming to be fighting out numbered but in reality they are 12 players with 10x the stats fighting against 40 disjointed pugs. Even if it is ballgroup vs ballgroup 12x10 vs 12x10 and you add 20 random pugs that is like 120 vs 140 assuming those 20 pugs are even doing anything substantial past light attacking.

It is grasping at straws while drastically ruining the performance and play ability of the game for the other half of the population.

fizzybeef

Wait you had bars in vengeance ? PS EU did not have a single bar during the whole vengeance LOL

acastanza_ESO

MincMincMinc wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

If you could stack heals in a group you could at least try to coordinate fight back against a zerg.

That's just stacking heals to stall out a fight without killing anyone, like the ball groups on Live, and what the large raid guilds on Vengeance are doing. Their raw numbers flip flags, as opposed to a ball group circling the roof for 40 minutes.

What any large scale PvP needs is for solos/casuals/zergs to be able to put out enough damage to win outnumbered, without the need for the outside-game logistics and hard structure demanded by running in comp groups. This could potentially be accomplished by say, removing offensive AoE caps and restoring the lingering ground AoE on Meatbags.

Your point is lacking any real logical sense. You do this on every thread where you complain about the same things over and over and nothing is ever done to nerf it but you don't really ever take it as a sign. You want people to be able to kill COORDINATED GROUPS, while the lesser groups that aren't a ball group are NOT COORDINATED and also HAVE LESS PEOPOLE. Skills and sets like this already exist to benefit players when they are out numbered. There is no way to make smaller groups able to consistently kill bigger more coordinated groups without breaking the game entirely.

I mean just think of it, it doesn't make sense. Smaller groups can already beat better groups that are stacking heals if the player number isn't extremely significant. If the player number is extremely significant ex. 4v12, and the skill level of the players is similar, it would make zero sense for the 4 to consistently be able to beat the 12. When I go out with my group and I engage groups much bigger than ours, where the players are also skilled, we are aware we are not supposed to win every single engage, that's just what happens.

If you nerf heals or cross heals to a certain number, all you are doing is making that cap the next "ballgroup" number. Groups used to go up to 24 and were much worse, both on the server and for the health of the game's balance. A 12 man group isn't even that bad. Groups of 24 pugs should be able to deal with it unless they are just not great at the game, and guess what, if they aren't great they shouldn't win.

There isn't a logical proposal ever brought up when you engage on this topic, and you do it daily, for hours on end.

In addition, only bad ballgroups just heal stack and don't do anything. My group consistently fights and kills the biggest and best ballgroups in the game. Ballgroups always fight each other and one usually ends up winning. Stalling and perma fighting only happens with zergs who sit there and res each other over and over, which creates more lag than any ballgroup ever will, and no ballgroup ever complains about that lack of balance because guess what, it's just what happens where there are too many people. People aren't asking for ressing to be nerfed so it can't continue the way it does , but that is way healthier for the game than anything else proposed.

Nothing is ever done because devs don’t play PvP against ballgroups and ballgroups lobby against any nerfs successfully and make all other playstiles quit until they are only ones left(also in forum).

Noone is asking for smaller group to beat a larger more coordinated group consistently but there should be a way to do it at all.
If you trade blows with a larger group you loose even if they don’t have crosshealing but if you catch and burst them offguard or oil them they shouldn’t get saved by shared effects when otherwise they would have died.
IRL beeing in a larger group doesn’t protect you from lethal dmg but having larger number is still a usually decisive advantage in fights.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

This is exactly the situation that a ballgroup would be able to break on live.

Solos/pugs need to be able to break these situations or the game dies, as Live has proved.

No, an uncoordinated group should not be able to consistently beat or even seriously disrupt a coordinated larger force. That makes absolutely zero logical sense.

A small coordinated group, however, especially when fighting within a zerg, absolutely can disrupt and even kill 12-man ball groups if they build and coordinate properly. But explain to me how it makes any sense for a random pug running their solo YouTube build to deal lethal damage on their own to a group that has spent far more time and effort min-maxing comps, perfecting roles, and drilling execution specifically to have a competitive advantage.

That’s like saying a thousand untrained peasants should be able to consistently beat a hundred trained marines just because of sheer numbers. Use your brain — preparation, coordination, and skill are supposed to matter.

I already said I don’t ask to consistently beat a larger group but just for a way to kill them.

That a smaller ballgroup can beat a larger ballgroup with help of a zerg is no option or help for non-members of ballgroups.

The marines should have the skills to avoid getting mortally wounded but not survive getting shot in the chest many times without bulletproof vest than kill the peasant by a glancing shot scratching his finger.

You took that parallel way too literally. The point wasn’t to run a military sim, it was dumbed down so even people like you could understand: coordination and skill matter, and they carry far more weight than anything a single pug can put out.

And let’s not pretend solos contribute nothing — you do contribute against a ball group, you just don’t feel it because it’s minimal. Why? Because you didn’t put in the same time, effort, and coordination that the ball group invests into min-maxing comps and perfecting execution. That’s the difference.

You took from that parallel only what fits your agenda and ignore the part contradicting it expecting me to do the same.
Finding that contradiction is taking it too literal for you, others are only allowed to use the part that supports your agenda.
Am I too dumb to understand your arguments (if not dumbed down) or not dumb enaugh to believe them.
While coordination and skill should and do matter ballgroups get even more of their strength from groupbuilds enabling godmode.
Contribution too minimal too feel it is nearly nothing and makes fighting ballgroups or PvP at all when they are everywhere senseless.
Soloplayers also invest time into min-maxing their builds and perfecting their execution and coordination but can’t coordinate with players that are non existent or always changing.

Alright, let’s dumb this down to your level and go back to the example. A thousand peasants would never defeat a hundred trained US Marines in any realistic modern warfare scenario. Surprised I even have to spell that out for you, but here we are.

Yes, the peasants (you) can “optimize” their setup all they want, but they still wouldn’t be able to take on the Marines (the 12-man ball group), even if they outnumber them 5 to 1, unless the Marines make a huge mistake. And that’s exactly how it should be.

You keep crying as a solo player in an MMO about groups existing, but if you actually believe you can min-max your builds so well, then grab a few friends and build a proper 4–5 man comp. Zerg down a ball group and see how far you get.

No, don't dumb the analogy down because it's now ridiculous. There is no way in Oblvion the average ball group player is a trained marine skill level whereas the average solo is a press ganged peasant ( to say nothing that being in a ball group gives players a literal millennium of technological advancements).

Most of us accept that skill and coordination should give comped groups real advantages. What we object to are broken mechanics that allow Cyrodiil to play like a ball group are modern marines and everyone else a peasant.

Nothing more needs to be said past:

solo players get 5 piece sets worth 450wd on cooldowns

Group players get 5 piece sets worth 5k+wd with no cooldowns. "skill"

Everyone has access to exactly the same sets. You choose to coordinate them or not. Blaming the people that do for the failures of the people that don't is an insane inability to understand the core concept of the game.

Ok so when I solo I should just multibox another 11 accounts so I can match the efficiency of another player that chooses to group? That sounds reasonable. I HAVE access to the sets and CAN wear them, the problem is that I will never get the same results from the set unless I am in a group.

If I wear olorime it is worth 430wd

If I wear olorime in a group it is worth 5160wd

For item sets this has just polarized a portion of the population so far beyond the other portion of the population.
1vX, solo, casual groups......... smallman, casual zergs..............................................Guild groups, ball groups.

---

Its just sad when we see ball groups claiming to be fighting out numbered but in reality they are 12 players with 10x the stats fighting against 40 disjointed pugs. Even if it is ballgroup vs ballgroup 12x10 vs 12x10 and you add 20 random pugs that is like 120 vs 140 assuming those 20 pugs are even doing anything substantial past light attacking.

It is grasping at straws while drastically ruining the performance and play ability of the game for the other half of the population.

This is a game where the endgame is explicitly designed for grouping. Why on earth do you think you deserve to access the same level of power as people who coordinate to actually play the endgame as designed when you won't?
You choose to solo, you choose to accept the lower power ceiling. To demand anything else is actually crazy and completely inconsistent with the core game tenants.

MincMincMinc

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

If you could stack heals in a group you could at least try to coordinate fight back against a zerg.

That's just stacking heals to stall out a fight without killing anyone, like the ball groups on Live, and what the large raid guilds on Vengeance are doing. Their raw numbers flip flags, as opposed to a ball group circling the roof for 40 minutes.

What any large scale PvP needs is for solos/casuals/zergs to be able to put out enough damage to win outnumbered, without the need for the outside-game logistics and hard structure demanded by running in comp groups. This could potentially be accomplished by say, removing offensive AoE caps and restoring the lingering ground AoE on Meatbags.

Your point is lacking any real logical sense. You do this on every thread where you complain about the same things over and over and nothing is ever done to nerf it but you don't really ever take it as a sign. You want people to be able to kill COORDINATED GROUPS, while the lesser groups that aren't a ball group are NOT COORDINATED and also HAVE LESS PEOPOLE. Skills and sets like this already exist to benefit players when they are out numbered. There is no way to make smaller groups able to consistently kill bigger more coordinated groups without breaking the game entirely.

I mean just think of it, it doesn't make sense. Smaller groups can already beat better groups that are stacking heals if the player number isn't extremely significant. If the player number is extremely significant ex. 4v12, and the skill level of the players is similar, it would make zero sense for the 4 to consistently be able to beat the 12. When I go out with my group and I engage groups much bigger than ours, where the players are also skilled, we are aware we are not supposed to win every single engage, that's just what happens.

If you nerf heals or cross heals to a certain number, all you are doing is making that cap the next "ballgroup" number. Groups used to go up to 24 and were much worse, both on the server and for the health of the game's balance. A 12 man group isn't even that bad. Groups of 24 pugs should be able to deal with it unless they are just not great at the game, and guess what, if they aren't great they shouldn't win.

There isn't a logical proposal ever brought up when you engage on this topic, and you do it daily, for hours on end.

In addition, only bad ballgroups just heal stack and don't do anything. My group consistently fights and kills the biggest and best ballgroups in the game. Ballgroups always fight each other and one usually ends up winning. Stalling and perma fighting only happens with zergs who sit there and res each other over and over, which creates more lag than any ballgroup ever will, and no ballgroup ever complains about that lack of balance because guess what, it's just what happens where there are too many people. People aren't asking for ressing to be nerfed so it can't continue the way it does , but that is way healthier for the game than anything else proposed.

Nothing is ever done because devs don’t play PvP against ballgroups and ballgroups lobby against any nerfs successfully and make all other playstiles quit until they are only ones left(also in forum).

Noone is asking for smaller group to beat a larger more coordinated group consistently but there should be a way to do it at all.
If you trade blows with a larger group you loose even if they don’t have crosshealing but if you catch and burst them offguard or oil them they shouldn’t get saved by shared effects when otherwise they would have died.
IRL beeing in a larger group doesn’t protect you from lethal dmg but having larger number is still a usually decisive advantage in fights.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

This is exactly the situation that a ballgroup would be able to break on live.

Solos/pugs need to be able to break these situations or the game dies, as Live has proved.

No, an uncoordinated group should not be able to consistently beat or even seriously disrupt a coordinated larger force. That makes absolutely zero logical sense.

A small coordinated group, however, especially when fighting within a zerg, absolutely can disrupt and even kill 12-man ball groups if they build and coordinate properly. But explain to me how it makes any sense for a random pug running their solo YouTube build to deal lethal damage on their own to a group that has spent far more time and effort min-maxing comps, perfecting roles, and drilling execution specifically to have a competitive advantage.

That’s like saying a thousand untrained peasants should be able to consistently beat a hundred trained marines just because of sheer numbers. Use your brain — preparation, coordination, and skill are supposed to matter.

I already said I don’t ask to consistently beat a larger group but just for a way to kill them.

That a smaller ballgroup can beat a larger ballgroup with help of a zerg is no option or help for non-members of ballgroups.

The marines should have the skills to avoid getting mortally wounded but not survive getting shot in the chest many times without bulletproof vest than kill the peasant by a glancing shot scratching his finger.

You took that parallel way too literally. The point wasn’t to run a military sim, it was dumbed down so even people like you could understand: coordination and skill matter, and they carry far more weight than anything a single pug can put out.

And let’s not pretend solos contribute nothing — you do contribute against a ball group, you just don’t feel it because it’s minimal. Why? Because you didn’t put in the same time, effort, and coordination that the ball group invests into min-maxing comps and perfecting execution. That’s the difference.

You took from that parallel only what fits your agenda and ignore the part contradicting it expecting me to do the same.
Finding that contradiction is taking it too literal for you, others are only allowed to use the part that supports your agenda.
Am I too dumb to understand your arguments (if not dumbed down) or not dumb enaugh to believe them.
While coordination and skill should and do matter ballgroups get even more of their strength from groupbuilds enabling godmode.
Contribution too minimal too feel it is nearly nothing and makes fighting ballgroups or PvP at all when they are everywhere senseless.
Soloplayers also invest time into min-maxing their builds and perfecting their execution and coordination but can’t coordinate with players that are non existent or always changing.

Alright, let’s dumb this down to your level and go back to the example. A thousand peasants would never defeat a hundred trained US Marines in any realistic modern warfare scenario. Surprised I even have to spell that out for you, but here we are.

Yes, the peasants (you) can “optimize” their setup all they want, but they still wouldn’t be able to take on the Marines (the 12-man ball group), even if they outnumber them 5 to 1, unless the Marines make a huge mistake. And that’s exactly how it should be.

You keep crying as a solo player in an MMO about groups existing, but if you actually believe you can min-max your builds so well, then grab a few friends and build a proper 4–5 man comp. Zerg down a ball group and see how far you get.

No, don't dumb the analogy down because it's now ridiculous. There is no way in Oblvion the average ball group player is a trained marine skill level whereas the average solo is a press ganged peasant ( to say nothing that being in a ball group gives players a literal millennium of technological advancements).

Most of us accept that skill and coordination should give comped groups real advantages. What we object to are broken mechanics that allow Cyrodiil to play like a ball group are modern marines and everyone else a peasant.

Nothing more needs to be said past:

solo players get 5 piece sets worth 450wd on cooldowns

Group players get 5 piece sets worth 5k+wd with no cooldowns. "skill"

Everyone has access to exactly the same sets. You choose to coordinate them or not. Blaming the people that do for the failures of the people that don't is an insane inability to understand the core concept of the game.

Ok so when I solo I should just multibox another 11 accounts so I can match the efficiency of another player that chooses to group? That sounds reasonable. I HAVE access to the sets and CAN wear them, the problem is that I will never get the same results from the set unless I am in a group.

If I wear olorime it is worth 430wd

If I wear olorime in a group it is worth 5160wd

For item sets this has just polarized a portion of the population so far beyond the other portion of the population.
1vX, solo, casual groups......... smallman, casual zergs..............................................Guild groups, ball groups.

---

Its just sad when we see ball groups claiming to be fighting out numbered but in reality they are 12 players with 10x the stats fighting against 40 disjointed pugs. Even if it is ballgroup vs ballgroup 12x10 vs 12x10 and you add 20 random pugs that is like 120 vs 140 assuming those 20 pugs are even doing anything substantial past light attacking.

It is grasping at straws while drastically ruining the performance and play ability of the game for the other half of the population.

This is a game where the endgame is explicitly designed for grouping. Why on earth do you think you deserve to access the same level of power as people who coordinate to actually play the endgame as designed when you won't?
You choose to solo, you choose to accept the lower power ceiling. To demand anything else is actually crazy and completely inconsistent with the core game tenants.

You aren't grasping that it isn't a coordination issue, it is a power scaling issue. If it were just coordination We would see these group sets provide the same standard distributed across the group evenly where the cooldowns and uptimes are just more consistent because of group build coordination. It is just uncalled for to have these group sets worth 10x or more of other sets. You are already winning by population and want to be pat on the back build wise just because you grouped up?

Ball group play and zerg play would be perfectly fine without 10x the stat bonuses on every group member making the other half of the population be no contest. Unless you are worried your 12 man coordinated group is suddenly going to get 1vXed by a solo player still 12x less stats than you. Granted you are used to having/needing 120x that solo player's stats so....