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• https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/683901
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – October 13
• NA megaservers for maintenance – October 15, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
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• https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/683901
Vengeance is Dead.
-
acastanza_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭MincMincMinc wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »
That's just stacking heals to stall out a fight without killing anyone, like the ball groups on Live, and what the large raid guilds on Vengeance are doing. Their raw numbers flip flags, as opposed to a ball group circling the roof for 40 minutes.acastanza_ESO wrote: »If you could stack heals in a group you could at least try to coordinate fight back against a zerg.
What any large scale PvP needs is for solos/casuals/zergs to be able to put out enough damage to win outnumbered, without the need for the outside-game logistics and hard structure demanded by running in comp groups. This could potentially be accomplished by say, removing offensive AoE caps and restoring the lingering ground AoE on Meatbags.
Your point is lacking any real logical sense. You do this on every thread where you complain about the same things over and over and nothing is ever done to nerf it but you don't really ever take it as a sign. You want people to be able to kill COORDINATED GROUPS, while the lesser groups that aren't a ball group are NOT COORDINATED and also HAVE LESS PEOPOLE. Skills and sets like this already exist to benefit players when they are out numbered. There is no way to make smaller groups able to consistently kill bigger more coordinated groups without breaking the game entirely.
I mean just think of it, it doesn't make sense. Smaller groups can already beat better groups that are stacking heals if the player number isn't extremely significant. If the player number is extremely significant ex. 4v12, and the skill level of the players is similar, it would make zero sense for the 4 to consistently be able to beat the 12. When I go out with my group and I engage groups much bigger than ours, where the players are also skilled, we are aware we are not supposed to win every single engage, that's just what happens.
If you nerf heals or cross heals to a certain number, all you are doing is making that cap the next "ballgroup" number. Groups used to go up to 24 and were much worse, both on the server and for the health of the game's balance. A 12 man group isn't even that bad. Groups of 24 pugs should be able to deal with it unless they are just not great at the game, and guess what, if they aren't great they shouldn't win.
There isn't a logical proposal ever brought up when you engage on this topic, and you do it daily, for hours on end.
In addition, only bad ballgroups just heal stack and don't do anything. My group consistently fights and kills the biggest and best ballgroups in the game. Ballgroups always fight each other and one usually ends up winning. Stalling and perma fighting only happens with zergs who sit there and res each other over and over, which creates more lag than any ballgroup ever will, and no ballgroup ever complains about that lack of balance because guess what, it's just what happens where there are too many people. People aren't asking for ressing to be nerfed so it can't continue the way it does , but that is way healthier for the game than anything else proposed.
Nothing is ever done because devs don’t play PvP against ballgroups and ballgroups lobby against any nerfs successfully and make all other playstiles quit until they are only ones left(also in forum).
Noone is asking for smaller group to beat a larger more coordinated group consistently but there should be a way to do it at all.
If you trade blows with a larger group you loose even if they don’t have crosshealing but if you catch and burst them offguard or oil them they shouldn’t get saved by shared effects when otherwise they would have died.
IRL beeing in a larger group doesn’t protect you from lethal dmg but having larger number is still a usually decisive advantage in fights.xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Solos/pugs need to be able to break these situations or the game dies, as Live has proved.acastanza_ESO wrote: »This is exactly the situation that a ballgroup would be able to break on live.
No, an uncoordinated group should not be able to consistently beat or even seriously disrupt a coordinated larger force. That makes absolutely zero logical sense.
A small coordinated group, however, especially when fighting within a zerg, absolutely can disrupt and even kill 12-man ball groups if they build and coordinate properly. But explain to me how it makes any sense for a random pug running their solo YouTube build to deal lethal damage on their own to a group that has spent far more time and effort min-maxing comps, perfecting roles, and drilling execution specifically to have a competitive advantage.
That’s like saying a thousand untrained peasants should be able to consistently beat a hundred trained marines just because of sheer numbers. Use your brain — preparation, coordination, and skill are supposed to matter.
I already said I don’t ask to consistently beat a larger group but just for a way to kill them.
That a smaller ballgroup can beat a larger ballgroup with help of a zerg is no option or help for non-members of ballgroups.
The marines should have the skills to avoid getting mortally wounded but not survive getting shot in the chest many times without bulletproof vest than kill the peasant by a glancing shot scratching his finger.
You took that parallel way too literally. The point wasn’t to run a military sim, it was dumbed down so even people like you could understand: coordination and skill matter, and they carry far more weight than anything a single pug can put out.
And let’s not pretend solos contribute nothing — you do contribute against a ball group, you just don’t feel it because it’s minimal. Why? Because you didn’t put in the same time, effort, and coordination that the ball group invests into min-maxing comps and perfecting execution. That’s the difference.
You took from that parallel only what fits your agenda and ignore the part contradicting it expecting me to do the same.
Finding that contradiction is taking it too literal for you, others are only allowed to use the part that supports your agenda.
Am I too dumb to understand your arguments (if not dumbed down) or not dumb enaugh to believe them.
While coordination and skill should and do matter ballgroups get even more of their strength from groupbuilds enabling godmode.
Contribution too minimal too feel it is nearly nothing and makes fighting ballgroups or PvP at all when they are everywhere senseless.
Soloplayers also invest time into min-maxing their builds and perfecting their execution and coordination but can’t coordinate with players that are non existent or always changing.
Alright, let’s dumb this down to your level and go back to the example. A thousand peasants would never defeat a hundred trained US Marines in any realistic modern warfare scenario. Surprised I even have to spell that out for you, but here we are.
Yes, the peasants (you) can “optimize” their setup all they want, but they still wouldn’t be able to take on the Marines (the 12-man ball group), even if they outnumber them 5 to 1, unless the Marines make a huge mistake. And that’s exactly how it should be.
You keep crying as a solo player in an MMO about groups existing, but if you actually believe you can min-max your builds so well, then grab a few friends and build a proper 4–5 man comp. Zerg down a ball group and see how far you get.
No, don't dumb the analogy down because it's now ridiculous. There is no way in Oblvion the average ball group player is a trained marine skill level whereas the average solo is a press ganged peasant ( to say nothing that being in a ball group gives players a literal millennium of technological advancements).
Most of us accept that skill and coordination should give comped groups real advantages. What we object to are broken mechanics that allow Cyrodiil to play like a ball group are modern marines and everyone else a peasant.
Nothing more needs to be said past:
solo players get 5 piece sets worth 450wd on cooldowns
Group players get 5 piece sets worth 5k+wd with no cooldowns. "skill"
Everyone has access to exactly the same sets. You choose to coordinate them or not. Blaming the people that do for the failures of the people that don't is an insane inability to understand the core concept of the game.
Ok so when I solo I should just multibox another 11 accounts so I can match the efficiency of another player that chooses to group? That sounds reasonable. I HAVE access to the sets and CAN wear them, the problem is that I will never get the same results from the set unless I am in a group.
If I wear olorime it is worth 430wd
If I wear olorime in a group it is worth 5160wd
For item sets this has just polarized a portion of the population so far beyond the other portion of the population.
1vX, solo, casual groups......... smallman, casual zergs..............................................Guild groups, ball groups.
Its just sad when we see ball groups claiming to be fighting out numbered but in reality they are 12 players with 10x the stats fighting against 40 disjointed pugs. Even if it is ballgroup vs ballgroup 12x10 vs 12x10 and you add 20 random pugs that is like 120 vs 140 assuming those 20 pugs are even doing anything substantial past light attacking.
It is grasping at straws while drastically ruining the performance and play ability of the game for the other half of the population.
This is a game where the endgame is explicitly designed for grouping. Why on earth do you think you deserve to access the same level of power as people who coordinate to actually play the endgame as designed when you won't?
You choose to solo, you choose to accept the lower power ceiling. To demand anything else is actually crazy and completely inconsistent with the core game tenants.
You aren't grasping that it isn't a coordination issue, it is a power scaling issue. If it were just coordination We would see these group sets provide the same standard distributed across the group evenly where the cooldowns and uptimes are just more consistent because of group build coordination. It is just uncalled for to have these group sets worth 10x or more of other sets. You are already winning by population and want to be pat on the back build wise just because you grouped up?
Ball group play and zerg play would be perfectly fine without 10x the stat bonuses on every group member making the other half of the population be no contest. Unless you are worried your 12 man coordinated group is suddenly going to get 1vXed by a solo player still 12x less stats than you. Granted you are used to having/needing 120x that solo player's stats so....
You aren't grasping that power scaling with grouping is explicitly the design intent of the game that IS the result of coordination in character building that the game is designed to have. I agree that some skills, like vigor are overtuned and should have stacking limits (I think 3), but you're out here trying to fundamentally break the core game design to remove deserved power scaling delivered by grouping and coordination. We've seen what breaking that causes with vengenace; a dead campaign where only the faction who stacks the most people together wins. It's trash. If you want a solo pvp game, go play one, this game isn't.
"You are already winning by population and want to be pat on the back build wise just because you grouped up?"
This is just a lie. Ballgroups only run 12, and the ones worth a damn only ever fight 12v12 against other groups, or wildly outnumbered against the zerg with no or minimal ally support.1 -
MincMincMinc✭✭✭✭✭
✭acastanza_ESO wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »
That's just stacking heals to stall out a fight without killing anyone, like the ball groups on Live, and what the large raid guilds on Vengeance are doing. Their raw numbers flip flags, as opposed to a ball group circling the roof for 40 minutes.acastanza_ESO wrote: »If you could stack heals in a group you could at least try to coordinate fight back against a zerg.
What any large scale PvP needs is for solos/casuals/zergs to be able to put out enough damage to win outnumbered, without the need for the outside-game logistics and hard structure demanded by running in comp groups. This could potentially be accomplished by say, removing offensive AoE caps and restoring the lingering ground AoE on Meatbags.
Your point is lacking any real logical sense. You do this on every thread where you complain about the same things over and over and nothing is ever done to nerf it but you don't really ever take it as a sign. You want people to be able to kill COORDINATED GROUPS, while the lesser groups that aren't a ball group are NOT COORDINATED and also HAVE LESS PEOPOLE. Skills and sets like this already exist to benefit players when they are out numbered. There is no way to make smaller groups able to consistently kill bigger more coordinated groups without breaking the game entirely.
I mean just think of it, it doesn't make sense. Smaller groups can already beat better groups that are stacking heals if the player number isn't extremely significant. If the player number is extremely significant ex. 4v12, and the skill level of the players is similar, it would make zero sense for the 4 to consistently be able to beat the 12. When I go out with my group and I engage groups much bigger than ours, where the players are also skilled, we are aware we are not supposed to win every single engage, that's just what happens.
If you nerf heals or cross heals to a certain number, all you are doing is making that cap the next "ballgroup" number. Groups used to go up to 24 and were much worse, both on the server and for the health of the game's balance. A 12 man group isn't even that bad. Groups of 24 pugs should be able to deal with it unless they are just not great at the game, and guess what, if they aren't great they shouldn't win.
There isn't a logical proposal ever brought up when you engage on this topic, and you do it daily, for hours on end.
In addition, only bad ballgroups just heal stack and don't do anything. My group consistently fights and kills the biggest and best ballgroups in the game. Ballgroups always fight each other and one usually ends up winning. Stalling and perma fighting only happens with zergs who sit there and res each other over and over, which creates more lag than any ballgroup ever will, and no ballgroup ever complains about that lack of balance because guess what, it's just what happens where there are too many people. People aren't asking for ressing to be nerfed so it can't continue the way it does , but that is way healthier for the game than anything else proposed.
Nothing is ever done because devs don’t play PvP against ballgroups and ballgroups lobby against any nerfs successfully and make all other playstiles quit until they are only ones left(also in forum).
Noone is asking for smaller group to beat a larger more coordinated group consistently but there should be a way to do it at all.
If you trade blows with a larger group you loose even if they don’t have crosshealing but if you catch and burst them offguard or oil them they shouldn’t get saved by shared effects when otherwise they would have died.
IRL beeing in a larger group doesn’t protect you from lethal dmg but having larger number is still a usually decisive advantage in fights.xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Solos/pugs need to be able to break these situations or the game dies, as Live has proved.acastanza_ESO wrote: »This is exactly the situation that a ballgroup would be able to break on live.
No, an uncoordinated group should not be able to consistently beat or even seriously disrupt a coordinated larger force. That makes absolutely zero logical sense.
A small coordinated group, however, especially when fighting within a zerg, absolutely can disrupt and even kill 12-man ball groups if they build and coordinate properly. But explain to me how it makes any sense for a random pug running their solo YouTube build to deal lethal damage on their own to a group that has spent far more time and effort min-maxing comps, perfecting roles, and drilling execution specifically to have a competitive advantage.
That’s like saying a thousand untrained peasants should be able to consistently beat a hundred trained marines just because of sheer numbers. Use your brain — preparation, coordination, and skill are supposed to matter.
I already said I don’t ask to consistently beat a larger group but just for a way to kill them.
That a smaller ballgroup can beat a larger ballgroup with help of a zerg is no option or help for non-members of ballgroups.
The marines should have the skills to avoid getting mortally wounded but not survive getting shot in the chest many times without bulletproof vest than kill the peasant by a glancing shot scratching his finger.
You took that parallel way too literally. The point wasn’t to run a military sim, it was dumbed down so even people like you could understand: coordination and skill matter, and they carry far more weight than anything a single pug can put out.
And let’s not pretend solos contribute nothing — you do contribute against a ball group, you just don’t feel it because it’s minimal. Why? Because you didn’t put in the same time, effort, and coordination that the ball group invests into min-maxing comps and perfecting execution. That’s the difference.
You took from that parallel only what fits your agenda and ignore the part contradicting it expecting me to do the same.
Finding that contradiction is taking it too literal for you, others are only allowed to use the part that supports your agenda.
Am I too dumb to understand your arguments (if not dumbed down) or not dumb enaugh to believe them.
While coordination and skill should and do matter ballgroups get even more of their strength from groupbuilds enabling godmode.
Contribution too minimal too feel it is nearly nothing and makes fighting ballgroups or PvP at all when they are everywhere senseless.
Soloplayers also invest time into min-maxing their builds and perfecting their execution and coordination but can’t coordinate with players that are non existent or always changing.
Alright, let’s dumb this down to your level and go back to the example. A thousand peasants would never defeat a hundred trained US Marines in any realistic modern warfare scenario. Surprised I even have to spell that out for you, but here we are.
Yes, the peasants (you) can “optimize” their setup all they want, but they still wouldn’t be able to take on the Marines (the 12-man ball group), even if they outnumber them 5 to 1, unless the Marines make a huge mistake. And that’s exactly how it should be.
You keep crying as a solo player in an MMO about groups existing, but if you actually believe you can min-max your builds so well, then grab a few friends and build a proper 4–5 man comp. Zerg down a ball group and see how far you get.
No, don't dumb the analogy down because it's now ridiculous. There is no way in Oblvion the average ball group player is a trained marine skill level whereas the average solo is a press ganged peasant ( to say nothing that being in a ball group gives players a literal millennium of technological advancements).
Most of us accept that skill and coordination should give comped groups real advantages. What we object to are broken mechanics that allow Cyrodiil to play like a ball group are modern marines and everyone else a peasant.
Nothing more needs to be said past:
solo players get 5 piece sets worth 450wd on cooldowns
Group players get 5 piece sets worth 5k+wd with no cooldowns. "skill"
Everyone has access to exactly the same sets. You choose to coordinate them or not. Blaming the people that do for the failures of the people that don't is an insane inability to understand the core concept of the game.
Ok so when I solo I should just multibox another 11 accounts so I can match the efficiency of another player that chooses to group? That sounds reasonable. I HAVE access to the sets and CAN wear them, the problem is that I will never get the same results from the set unless I am in a group.
If I wear olorime it is worth 430wd
If I wear olorime in a group it is worth 5160wd
For item sets this has just polarized a portion of the population so far beyond the other portion of the population.
1vX, solo, casual groups......... smallman, casual zergs..............................................Guild groups, ball groups.
Its just sad when we see ball groups claiming to be fighting out numbered but in reality they are 12 players with 10x the stats fighting against 40 disjointed pugs. Even if it is ballgroup vs ballgroup 12x10 vs 12x10 and you add 20 random pugs that is like 120 vs 140 assuming those 20 pugs are even doing anything substantial past light attacking.
It is grasping at straws while drastically ruining the performance and play ability of the game for the other half of the population.
This is a game where the endgame is explicitly designed for grouping. Why on earth do you think you deserve to access the same level of power as people who coordinate to actually play the endgame as designed when you won't?
You choose to solo, you choose to accept the lower power ceiling. To demand anything else is actually crazy and completely inconsistent with the core game tenants.
You aren't grasping that it isn't a coordination issue, it is a power scaling issue. If it were just coordination We would see these group sets provide the same standard distributed across the group evenly where the cooldowns and uptimes are just more consistent because of group build coordination. It is just uncalled for to have these group sets worth 10x or more of other sets. You are already winning by population and want to be pat on the back build wise just because you grouped up?
Ball group play and zerg play would be perfectly fine without 10x the stat bonuses on every group member making the other half of the population be no contest. Unless you are worried your 12 man coordinated group is suddenly going to get 1vXed by a solo player still 12x less stats than you. Granted you are used to having/needing 120x that solo player's stats so....
If you want a solo pvp game, go play one, this game isn't.
The only reason endgame grouplay exists is because the game as an MMO houses all forms of content. Cyrodil only got popular and existed because it housed pvp content for everyone. pugs, solos, zergs, coordinated groups. Ignoring that and saying everyone else should leave the game is a wild take. At that point you are asking for cyrodil to just be a ballgroup vs ballgroup BG system. (still surprised they didnt just make 12v12 a thing)acastanza_ESO wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »
That's just stacking heals to stall out a fight without killing anyone, like the ball groups on Live, and what the large raid guilds on Vengeance are doing. Their raw numbers flip flags, as opposed to a ball group circling the roof for 40 minutes.acastanza_ESO wrote: »If you could stack heals in a group you could at least try to coordinate fight back against a zerg.
What any large scale PvP needs is for solos/casuals/zergs to be able to put out enough damage to win outnumbered, without the need for the outside-game logistics and hard structure demanded by running in comp groups. This could potentially be accomplished by say, removing offensive AoE caps and restoring the lingering ground AoE on Meatbags.
Your point is lacking any real logical sense. You do this on every thread where you complain about the same things over and over and nothing is ever done to nerf it but you don't really ever take it as a sign. You want people to be able to kill COORDINATED GROUPS, while the lesser groups that aren't a ball group are NOT COORDINATED and also HAVE LESS PEOPOLE. Skills and sets like this already exist to benefit players when they are out numbered. There is no way to make smaller groups able to consistently kill bigger more coordinated groups without breaking the game entirely.
I mean just think of it, it doesn't make sense. Smaller groups can already beat better groups that are stacking heals if the player number isn't extremely significant. If the player number is extremely significant ex. 4v12, and the skill level of the players is similar, it would make zero sense for the 4 to consistently be able to beat the 12. When I go out with my group and I engage groups much bigger than ours, where the players are also skilled, we are aware we are not supposed to win every single engage, that's just what happens.
If you nerf heals or cross heals to a certain number, all you are doing is making that cap the next "ballgroup" number. Groups used to go up to 24 and were much worse, both on the server and for the health of the game's balance. A 12 man group isn't even that bad. Groups of 24 pugs should be able to deal with it unless they are just not great at the game, and guess what, if they aren't great they shouldn't win.
There isn't a logical proposal ever brought up when you engage on this topic, and you do it daily, for hours on end.
In addition, only bad ballgroups just heal stack and don't do anything. My group consistently fights and kills the biggest and best ballgroups in the game. Ballgroups always fight each other and one usually ends up winning. Stalling and perma fighting only happens with zergs who sit there and res each other over and over, which creates more lag than any ballgroup ever will, and no ballgroup ever complains about that lack of balance because guess what, it's just what happens where there are too many people. People aren't asking for ressing to be nerfed so it can't continue the way it does , but that is way healthier for the game than anything else proposed.
Nothing is ever done because devs don’t play PvP against ballgroups and ballgroups lobby against any nerfs successfully and make all other playstiles quit until they are only ones left(also in forum).
Noone is asking for smaller group to beat a larger more coordinated group consistently but there should be a way to do it at all.
If you trade blows with a larger group you loose even if they don’t have crosshealing but if you catch and burst them offguard or oil them they shouldn’t get saved by shared effects when otherwise they would have died.
IRL beeing in a larger group doesn’t protect you from lethal dmg but having larger number is still a usually decisive advantage in fights.xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Solos/pugs need to be able to break these situations or the game dies, as Live has proved.acastanza_ESO wrote: »This is exactly the situation that a ballgroup would be able to break on live.
No, an uncoordinated group should not be able to consistently beat or even seriously disrupt a coordinated larger force. That makes absolutely zero logical sense.
A small coordinated group, however, especially when fighting within a zerg, absolutely can disrupt and even kill 12-man ball groups if they build and coordinate properly. But explain to me how it makes any sense for a random pug running their solo YouTube build to deal lethal damage on their own to a group that has spent far more time and effort min-maxing comps, perfecting roles, and drilling execution specifically to have a competitive advantage.
That’s like saying a thousand untrained peasants should be able to consistently beat a hundred trained marines just because of sheer numbers. Use your brain — preparation, coordination, and skill are supposed to matter.
I already said I don’t ask to consistently beat a larger group but just for a way to kill them.
That a smaller ballgroup can beat a larger ballgroup with help of a zerg is no option or help for non-members of ballgroups.
The marines should have the skills to avoid getting mortally wounded but not survive getting shot in the chest many times without bulletproof vest than kill the peasant by a glancing shot scratching his finger.
You took that parallel way too literally. The point wasn’t to run a military sim, it was dumbed down so even people like you could understand: coordination and skill matter, and they carry far more weight than anything a single pug can put out.
And let’s not pretend solos contribute nothing — you do contribute against a ball group, you just don’t feel it because it’s minimal. Why? Because you didn’t put in the same time, effort, and coordination that the ball group invests into min-maxing comps and perfecting execution. That’s the difference.
You took from that parallel only what fits your agenda and ignore the part contradicting it expecting me to do the same.
Finding that contradiction is taking it too literal for you, others are only allowed to use the part that supports your agenda.
Am I too dumb to understand your arguments (if not dumbed down) or not dumb enaugh to believe them.
While coordination and skill should and do matter ballgroups get even more of their strength from groupbuilds enabling godmode.
Contribution too minimal too feel it is nearly nothing and makes fighting ballgroups or PvP at all when they are everywhere senseless.
Soloplayers also invest time into min-maxing their builds and perfecting their execution and coordination but can’t coordinate with players that are non existent or always changing.
Alright, let’s dumb this down to your level and go back to the example. A thousand peasants would never defeat a hundred trained US Marines in any realistic modern warfare scenario. Surprised I even have to spell that out for you, but here we are.
Yes, the peasants (you) can “optimize” their setup all they want, but they still wouldn’t be able to take on the Marines (the 12-man ball group), even if they outnumber them 5 to 1, unless the Marines make a huge mistake. And that’s exactly how it should be.
You keep crying as a solo player in an MMO about groups existing, but if you actually believe you can min-max your builds so well, then grab a few friends and build a proper 4–5 man comp. Zerg down a ball group and see how far you get.
No, don't dumb the analogy down because it's now ridiculous. There is no way in Oblvion the average ball group player is a trained marine skill level whereas the average solo is a press ganged peasant ( to say nothing that being in a ball group gives players a literal millennium of technological advancements).
Most of us accept that skill and coordination should give comped groups real advantages. What we object to are broken mechanics that allow Cyrodiil to play like a ball group are modern marines and everyone else a peasant.
Nothing more needs to be said past:
solo players get 5 piece sets worth 450wd on cooldowns
Group players get 5 piece sets worth 5k+wd with no cooldowns. "skill"
Everyone has access to exactly the same sets. You choose to coordinate them or not. Blaming the people that do for the failures of the people that don't is an insane inability to understand the core concept of the game.
Ok so when I solo I should just multibox another 11 accounts so I can match the efficiency of another player that chooses to group? That sounds reasonable. I HAVE access to the sets and CAN wear them, the problem is that I will never get the same results from the set unless I am in a group.
If I wear olorime it is worth 430wd
If I wear olorime in a group it is worth 5160wd
For item sets this has just polarized a portion of the population so far beyond the other portion of the population.
1vX, solo, casual groups......... smallman, casual zergs..............................................Guild groups, ball groups.
Its just sad when we see ball groups claiming to be fighting out numbered but in reality they are 12 players with 10x the stats fighting against 40 disjointed pugs. Even if it is ballgroup vs ballgroup 12x10 vs 12x10 and you add 20 random pugs that is like 120 vs 140 assuming those 20 pugs are even doing anything substantial past light attacking.
It is grasping at straws while drastically ruining the performance and play ability of the game for the other half of the population.
This is a game where the endgame is explicitly designed for grouping. Why on earth do you think you deserve to access the same level of power as people who coordinate to actually play the endgame as designed when you won't?
You choose to solo, you choose to accept the lower power ceiling. To demand anything else is actually crazy and completely inconsistent with the core game tenants.
You aren't grasping that it isn't a coordination issue, it is a power scaling issue. If it were just coordination We would see these group sets provide the same standard distributed across the group evenly where the cooldowns and uptimes are just more consistent because of group build coordination. It is just uncalled for to have these group sets worth 10x or more of other sets. You are already winning by population and want to be pat on the back build wise just because you grouped up?
Ball group play and zerg play would be perfectly fine without 10x the stat bonuses on every group member making the other half of the population be no contest. Unless you are worried your 12 man coordinated group is suddenly going to get 1vXed by a solo player still 12x less stats than you. Granted you are used to having/needing 120x that solo player's stats so....
"You are already winning by population and want to be pat on the back build wise just because you grouped up?"
This is just a lie. Ballgroups only run 12, and the ones worth a damn only ever fight 12v12 against other groups, or wildly outnumbered against the zerg with no or minimal ally support.
Nothing to lie about there, that statement was talking directly about the set system which by comparison you already have 12x the 5 piece bonuses of a solo player and you want to be pat on the back and be 120x the 5 piece bonuses. Power scaling for some reason you think is necessary to combat the other coordinated group also with 120x the 5 piece bonuses.......... Its all relative to each other. Your gameplay loop 12v12 would not change, but if the sets were only 5x or even 2x just brings you down to the same planet as the other half of the playerbase.Zos should hire pvp consultants8 -
TheAwesomeChimpanzee✭✭✭✭MincMincMinc wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »
That's just stacking heals to stall out a fight without killing anyone, like the ball groups on Live, and what the large raid guilds on Vengeance are doing. Their raw numbers flip flags, as opposed to a ball group circling the roof for 40 minutes.acastanza_ESO wrote: »If you could stack heals in a group you could at least try to coordinate fight back against a zerg.
What any large scale PvP needs is for solos/casuals/zergs to be able to put out enough damage to win outnumbered, without the need for the outside-game logistics and hard structure demanded by running in comp groups. This could potentially be accomplished by say, removing offensive AoE caps and restoring the lingering ground AoE on Meatbags.
Your point is lacking any real logical sense. You do this on every thread where you complain about the same things over and over and nothing is ever done to nerf it but you don't really ever take it as a sign. You want people to be able to kill COORDINATED GROUPS, while the lesser groups that aren't a ball group are NOT COORDINATED and also HAVE LESS PEOPOLE. Skills and sets like this already exist to benefit players when they are out numbered. There is no way to make smaller groups able to consistently kill bigger more coordinated groups without breaking the game entirely.
I mean just think of it, it doesn't make sense. Smaller groups can already beat better groups that are stacking heals if the player number isn't extremely significant. If the player number is extremely significant ex. 4v12, and the skill level of the players is similar, it would make zero sense for the 4 to consistently be able to beat the 12. When I go out with my group and I engage groups much bigger than ours, where the players are also skilled, we are aware we are not supposed to win every single engage, that's just what happens.
If you nerf heals or cross heals to a certain number, all you are doing is making that cap the next "ballgroup" number. Groups used to go up to 24 and were much worse, both on the server and for the health of the game's balance. A 12 man group isn't even that bad. Groups of 24 pugs should be able to deal with it unless they are just not great at the game, and guess what, if they aren't great they shouldn't win.
There isn't a logical proposal ever brought up when you engage on this topic, and you do it daily, for hours on end.
In addition, only bad ballgroups just heal stack and don't do anything. My group consistently fights and kills the biggest and best ballgroups in the game. Ballgroups always fight each other and one usually ends up winning. Stalling and perma fighting only happens with zergs who sit there and res each other over and over, which creates more lag than any ballgroup ever will, and no ballgroup ever complains about that lack of balance because guess what, it's just what happens where there are too many people. People aren't asking for ressing to be nerfed so it can't continue the way it does , but that is way healthier for the game than anything else proposed.
Nothing is ever done because devs don’t play PvP against ballgroups and ballgroups lobby against any nerfs successfully and make all other playstiles quit until they are only ones left(also in forum).
Noone is asking for smaller group to beat a larger more coordinated group consistently but there should be a way to do it at all.
If you trade blows with a larger group you loose even if they don’t have crosshealing but if you catch and burst them offguard or oil them they shouldn’t get saved by shared effects when otherwise they would have died.
IRL beeing in a larger group doesn’t protect you from lethal dmg but having larger number is still a usually decisive advantage in fights.xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Solos/pugs need to be able to break these situations or the game dies, as Live has proved.acastanza_ESO wrote: »This is exactly the situation that a ballgroup would be able to break on live.
No, an uncoordinated group should not be able to consistently beat or even seriously disrupt a coordinated larger force. That makes absolutely zero logical sense.
A small coordinated group, however, especially when fighting within a zerg, absolutely can disrupt and even kill 12-man ball groups if they build and coordinate properly. But explain to me how it makes any sense for a random pug running their solo YouTube build to deal lethal damage on their own to a group that has spent far more time and effort min-maxing comps, perfecting roles, and drilling execution specifically to have a competitive advantage.
That’s like saying a thousand untrained peasants should be able to consistently beat a hundred trained marines just because of sheer numbers. Use your brain — preparation, coordination, and skill are supposed to matter.
I already said I don’t ask to consistently beat a larger group but just for a way to kill them.
That a smaller ballgroup can beat a larger ballgroup with help of a zerg is no option or help for non-members of ballgroups.
The marines should have the skills to avoid getting mortally wounded but not survive getting shot in the chest many times without bulletproof vest than kill the peasant by a glancing shot scratching his finger.
You took that parallel way too literally. The point wasn’t to run a military sim, it was dumbed down so even people like you could understand: coordination and skill matter, and they carry far more weight than anything a single pug can put out.
And let’s not pretend solos contribute nothing — you do contribute against a ball group, you just don’t feel it because it’s minimal. Why? Because you didn’t put in the same time, effort, and coordination that the ball group invests into min-maxing comps and perfecting execution. That’s the difference.
You took from that parallel only what fits your agenda and ignore the part contradicting it expecting me to do the same.
Finding that contradiction is taking it too literal for you, others are only allowed to use the part that supports your agenda.
Am I too dumb to understand your arguments (if not dumbed down) or not dumb enaugh to believe them.
While coordination and skill should and do matter ballgroups get even more of their strength from groupbuilds enabling godmode.
Contribution too minimal too feel it is nearly nothing and makes fighting ballgroups or PvP at all when they are everywhere senseless.
Soloplayers also invest time into min-maxing their builds and perfecting their execution and coordination but can’t coordinate with players that are non existent or always changing.
Alright, let’s dumb this down to your level and go back to the example. A thousand peasants would never defeat a hundred trained US Marines in any realistic modern warfare scenario. Surprised I even have to spell that out for you, but here we are.
Yes, the peasants (you) can “optimize” their setup all they want, but they still wouldn’t be able to take on the Marines (the 12-man ball group), even if they outnumber them 5 to 1, unless the Marines make a huge mistake. And that’s exactly how it should be.
You keep crying as a solo player in an MMO about groups existing, but if you actually believe you can min-max your builds so well, then grab a few friends and build a proper 4–5 man comp. Zerg down a ball group and see how far you get.
No, don't dumb the analogy down because it's now ridiculous. There is no way in Oblvion the average ball group player is a trained marine skill level whereas the average solo is a press ganged peasant ( to say nothing that being in a ball group gives players a literal millennium of technological advancements).
Most of us accept that skill and coordination should give comped groups real advantages. What we object to are broken mechanics that allow Cyrodiil to play like a ball group are modern marines and everyone else a peasant.
Nothing more needs to be said past:
solo players get 5 piece sets worth 450wd on cooldowns
Group players get 5 piece sets worth 5k+wd with no cooldowns. "skill"
I’d honestly pay money to see half of you build your own comp, ball up, and try it. On PCNA right now there are maybe 10–15 ball groups running in the past month. Out of those, at most 3 are actually strong enough to fight outnumbered (1–5, ball group vs faction stack), the same way a good 1vXer can 1v5 around a resource.
The rest? They fold instantly any time they aren’t glued to their faction’s zerg, so they default to stacking with it. That’s no different from a solo player who gives up on outnumbered fights and just joins the zerg because it’s the only way they can survive.
So explain to me why pugs who already crutch on zerging in the frontlines who actively avoid putting themselves in situations that would actually improve their combat fundamentals should magically be expected to beat the handful of groups that can do the same as an actually skilled solo player.3 -
MincMincMinc✭✭✭✭✭
✭TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »
That's just stacking heals to stall out a fight without killing anyone, like the ball groups on Live, and what the large raid guilds on Vengeance are doing. Their raw numbers flip flags, as opposed to a ball group circling the roof for 40 minutes.acastanza_ESO wrote: »If you could stack heals in a group you could at least try to coordinate fight back against a zerg.
What any large scale PvP needs is for solos/casuals/zergs to be able to put out enough damage to win outnumbered, without the need for the outside-game logistics and hard structure demanded by running in comp groups. This could potentially be accomplished by say, removing offensive AoE caps and restoring the lingering ground AoE on Meatbags.
Your point is lacking any real logical sense. You do this on every thread where you complain about the same things over and over and nothing is ever done to nerf it but you don't really ever take it as a sign. You want people to be able to kill COORDINATED GROUPS, while the lesser groups that aren't a ball group are NOT COORDINATED and also HAVE LESS PEOPOLE. Skills and sets like this already exist to benefit players when they are out numbered. There is no way to make smaller groups able to consistently kill bigger more coordinated groups without breaking the game entirely.
I mean just think of it, it doesn't make sense. Smaller groups can already beat better groups that are stacking heals if the player number isn't extremely significant. If the player number is extremely significant ex. 4v12, and the skill level of the players is similar, it would make zero sense for the 4 to consistently be able to beat the 12. When I go out with my group and I engage groups much bigger than ours, where the players are also skilled, we are aware we are not supposed to win every single engage, that's just what happens.
If you nerf heals or cross heals to a certain number, all you are doing is making that cap the next "ballgroup" number. Groups used to go up to 24 and were much worse, both on the server and for the health of the game's balance. A 12 man group isn't even that bad. Groups of 24 pugs should be able to deal with it unless they are just not great at the game, and guess what, if they aren't great they shouldn't win.
There isn't a logical proposal ever brought up when you engage on this topic, and you do it daily, for hours on end.
In addition, only bad ballgroups just heal stack and don't do anything. My group consistently fights and kills the biggest and best ballgroups in the game. Ballgroups always fight each other and one usually ends up winning. Stalling and perma fighting only happens with zergs who sit there and res each other over and over, which creates more lag than any ballgroup ever will, and no ballgroup ever complains about that lack of balance because guess what, it's just what happens where there are too many people. People aren't asking for ressing to be nerfed so it can't continue the way it does , but that is way healthier for the game than anything else proposed.
Nothing is ever done because devs don’t play PvP against ballgroups and ballgroups lobby against any nerfs successfully and make all other playstiles quit until they are only ones left(also in forum).
Noone is asking for smaller group to beat a larger more coordinated group consistently but there should be a way to do it at all.
If you trade blows with a larger group you loose even if they don’t have crosshealing but if you catch and burst them offguard or oil them they shouldn’t get saved by shared effects when otherwise they would have died.
IRL beeing in a larger group doesn’t protect you from lethal dmg but having larger number is still a usually decisive advantage in fights.xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Solos/pugs need to be able to break these situations or the game dies, as Live has proved.acastanza_ESO wrote: »This is exactly the situation that a ballgroup would be able to break on live.
No, an uncoordinated group should not be able to consistently beat or even seriously disrupt a coordinated larger force. That makes absolutely zero logical sense.
A small coordinated group, however, especially when fighting within a zerg, absolutely can disrupt and even kill 12-man ball groups if they build and coordinate properly. But explain to me how it makes any sense for a random pug running their solo YouTube build to deal lethal damage on their own to a group that has spent far more time and effort min-maxing comps, perfecting roles, and drilling execution specifically to have a competitive advantage.
That’s like saying a thousand untrained peasants should be able to consistently beat a hundred trained marines just because of sheer numbers. Use your brain — preparation, coordination, and skill are supposed to matter.
I already said I don’t ask to consistently beat a larger group but just for a way to kill them.
That a smaller ballgroup can beat a larger ballgroup with help of a zerg is no option or help for non-members of ballgroups.
The marines should have the skills to avoid getting mortally wounded but not survive getting shot in the chest many times without bulletproof vest than kill the peasant by a glancing shot scratching his finger.
You took that parallel way too literally. The point wasn’t to run a military sim, it was dumbed down so even people like you could understand: coordination and skill matter, and they carry far more weight than anything a single pug can put out.
And let’s not pretend solos contribute nothing — you do contribute against a ball group, you just don’t feel it because it’s minimal. Why? Because you didn’t put in the same time, effort, and coordination that the ball group invests into min-maxing comps and perfecting execution. That’s the difference.
You took from that parallel only what fits your agenda and ignore the part contradicting it expecting me to do the same.
Finding that contradiction is taking it too literal for you, others are only allowed to use the part that supports your agenda.
Am I too dumb to understand your arguments (if not dumbed down) or not dumb enaugh to believe them.
While coordination and skill should and do matter ballgroups get even more of their strength from groupbuilds enabling godmode.
Contribution too minimal too feel it is nearly nothing and makes fighting ballgroups or PvP at all when they are everywhere senseless.
Soloplayers also invest time into min-maxing their builds and perfecting their execution and coordination but can’t coordinate with players that are non existent or always changing.
Alright, let’s dumb this down to your level and go back to the example. A thousand peasants would never defeat a hundred trained US Marines in any realistic modern warfare scenario. Surprised I even have to spell that out for you, but here we are.
Yes, the peasants (you) can “optimize” their setup all they want, but they still wouldn’t be able to take on the Marines (the 12-man ball group), even if they outnumber them 5 to 1, unless the Marines make a huge mistake. And that’s exactly how it should be.
You keep crying as a solo player in an MMO about groups existing, but if you actually believe you can min-max your builds so well, then grab a few friends and build a proper 4–5 man comp. Zerg down a ball group and see how far you get.
No, don't dumb the analogy down because it's now ridiculous. There is no way in Oblvion the average ball group player is a trained marine skill level whereas the average solo is a press ganged peasant ( to say nothing that being in a ball group gives players a literal millennium of technological advancements).
Most of us accept that skill and coordination should give comped groups real advantages. What we object to are broken mechanics that allow Cyrodiil to play like a ball group are modern marines and everyone else a peasant.
Nothing more needs to be said past:
solo players get 5 piece sets worth 450wd on cooldowns
Group players get 5 piece sets worth 5k+wd with no cooldowns. "skill"
I’d honestly pay money to see half of you build your own comp, ball up, and try it. On PCNA right now there are maybe 10–15 ball groups running in the past month. Out of those, at most 3 are actually strong enough to fight outnumbered (1–5, ball group vs faction stack), the same way a good 1vXer can 1v5 around a resource.
The rest? They fold instantly any time they aren’t glued to their faction’s zerg, so they default to stacking with it. That’s no different from a solo player who gives up on outnumbered fights and just joins the zerg because it’s the only way they can survive.
So explain to me why pugs who already crutch on zerging in the frontlines who actively avoid putting themselves in situations that would actually improve their combat fundamentals should magically be expected to beat the handful of groups that can do the same as an actually skilled solo player.
Been there done that. I ran with Gott's HoD back in the earlier days when you really only had two or three group sets pop up for healers to run like spc, transmutation, sanctuary. Against far larger zergs. The only reason it was fun was winning while in a disadvantage, I just don't see that existing anymore these days. The way the math works out with so many unique stacking group sets creates a plateau that quickly splits the playerbase which tapers off once you hit the number of sets for 12 player groups. Its not worth getting into that level of endgame again, especially when the game can barely handle the abysmal pop cap. All my coordinated group guilds have abandoned the game because of how dysfunctional the server has been for a decade now.
Ball v Ball situations with random pugs silly because its like dueling your friend and a group of mudcrabs starts light attacking you. The shear stat plateau you sit on has so far removed the mudcrab (pugs) from ever being a threat. At worst one or two of your players gets pulled away and you need to loop around and rez or camp them?
The group component power creeping just moves the ball vs ball and ball vs zerg guild relative to each other. What if we made group sets 20x or 30x the stats.......Ball groups would still be fighting ball groups and zerg guild groups, except you just raised the plateau even more...........Raise it to 100x the stats for grouping, its still just raising the GvG player plateau. Its easier to show on a graph, but its just pointless power creep that raises GvG players into their own game that runs in parallel to the rest of the playerbase.
How come we do not see ball group players asking for 20x stats or 30x stat 5 piece sets? Its because they are already power crept so far past ever being threatened by pugs its a joke.
EDIT: In reality the problem probably has more to do where oldschool we had far more active skill choices mattering in GvG different classes and setups brought so much more difference to the table to try and fill specific roles. Now adays with subclassing even solo 1vX builds are at the point of having nearly every major/minor buff they could ever need. The skill system is bloated beyond belief leaving GvG to distinguish themselves mostly through the set system.Edited by MincMincMinc on 29 September 2025 23:32Zos should hire pvp consultants8 -
TheAwesomeChimpanzee✭✭✭✭MincMincMinc wrote: »TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »
That's just stacking heals to stall out a fight without killing anyone, like the ball groups on Live, and what the large raid guilds on Vengeance are doing. Their raw numbers flip flags, as opposed to a ball group circling the roof for 40 minutes.acastanza_ESO wrote: »If you could stack heals in a group you could at least try to coordinate fight back against a zerg.
What any large scale PvP needs is for solos/casuals/zergs to be able to put out enough damage to win outnumbered, without the need for the outside-game logistics and hard structure demanded by running in comp groups. This could potentially be accomplished by say, removing offensive AoE caps and restoring the lingering ground AoE on Meatbags.
Your point is lacking any real logical sense. You do this on every thread where you complain about the same things over and over and nothing is ever done to nerf it but you don't really ever take it as a sign. You want people to be able to kill COORDINATED GROUPS, while the lesser groups that aren't a ball group are NOT COORDINATED and also HAVE LESS PEOPOLE. Skills and sets like this already exist to benefit players when they are out numbered. There is no way to make smaller groups able to consistently kill bigger more coordinated groups without breaking the game entirely.
I mean just think of it, it doesn't make sense. Smaller groups can already beat better groups that are stacking heals if the player number isn't extremely significant. If the player number is extremely significant ex. 4v12, and the skill level of the players is similar, it would make zero sense for the 4 to consistently be able to beat the 12. When I go out with my group and I engage groups much bigger than ours, where the players are also skilled, we are aware we are not supposed to win every single engage, that's just what happens.
If you nerf heals or cross heals to a certain number, all you are doing is making that cap the next "ballgroup" number. Groups used to go up to 24 and were much worse, both on the server and for the health of the game's balance. A 12 man group isn't even that bad. Groups of 24 pugs should be able to deal with it unless they are just not great at the game, and guess what, if they aren't great they shouldn't win.
There isn't a logical proposal ever brought up when you engage on this topic, and you do it daily, for hours on end.
In addition, only bad ballgroups just heal stack and don't do anything. My group consistently fights and kills the biggest and best ballgroups in the game. Ballgroups always fight each other and one usually ends up winning. Stalling and perma fighting only happens with zergs who sit there and res each other over and over, which creates more lag than any ballgroup ever will, and no ballgroup ever complains about that lack of balance because guess what, it's just what happens where there are too many people. People aren't asking for ressing to be nerfed so it can't continue the way it does , but that is way healthier for the game than anything else proposed.
Nothing is ever done because devs don’t play PvP against ballgroups and ballgroups lobby against any nerfs successfully and make all other playstiles quit until they are only ones left(also in forum).
Noone is asking for smaller group to beat a larger more coordinated group consistently but there should be a way to do it at all.
If you trade blows with a larger group you loose even if they don’t have crosshealing but if you catch and burst them offguard or oil them they shouldn’t get saved by shared effects when otherwise they would have died.
IRL beeing in a larger group doesn’t protect you from lethal dmg but having larger number is still a usually decisive advantage in fights.xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Solos/pugs need to be able to break these situations or the game dies, as Live has proved.acastanza_ESO wrote: »This is exactly the situation that a ballgroup would be able to break on live.
No, an uncoordinated group should not be able to consistently beat or even seriously disrupt a coordinated larger force. That makes absolutely zero logical sense.
A small coordinated group, however, especially when fighting within a zerg, absolutely can disrupt and even kill 12-man ball groups if they build and coordinate properly. But explain to me how it makes any sense for a random pug running their solo YouTube build to deal lethal damage on their own to a group that has spent far more time and effort min-maxing comps, perfecting roles, and drilling execution specifically to have a competitive advantage.
That’s like saying a thousand untrained peasants should be able to consistently beat a hundred trained marines just because of sheer numbers. Use your brain — preparation, coordination, and skill are supposed to matter.
I already said I don’t ask to consistently beat a larger group but just for a way to kill them.
That a smaller ballgroup can beat a larger ballgroup with help of a zerg is no option or help for non-members of ballgroups.
The marines should have the skills to avoid getting mortally wounded but not survive getting shot in the chest many times without bulletproof vest than kill the peasant by a glancing shot scratching his finger.
You took that parallel way too literally. The point wasn’t to run a military sim, it was dumbed down so even people like you could understand: coordination and skill matter, and they carry far more weight than anything a single pug can put out.
And let’s not pretend solos contribute nothing — you do contribute against a ball group, you just don’t feel it because it’s minimal. Why? Because you didn’t put in the same time, effort, and coordination that the ball group invests into min-maxing comps and perfecting execution. That’s the difference.
You took from that parallel only what fits your agenda and ignore the part contradicting it expecting me to do the same.
Finding that contradiction is taking it too literal for you, others are only allowed to use the part that supports your agenda.
Am I too dumb to understand your arguments (if not dumbed down) or not dumb enaugh to believe them.
While coordination and skill should and do matter ballgroups get even more of their strength from groupbuilds enabling godmode.
Contribution too minimal too feel it is nearly nothing and makes fighting ballgroups or PvP at all when they are everywhere senseless.
Soloplayers also invest time into min-maxing their builds and perfecting their execution and coordination but can’t coordinate with players that are non existent or always changing.
Alright, let’s dumb this down to your level and go back to the example. A thousand peasants would never defeat a hundred trained US Marines in any realistic modern warfare scenario. Surprised I even have to spell that out for you, but here we are.
Yes, the peasants (you) can “optimize” their setup all they want, but they still wouldn’t be able to take on the Marines (the 12-man ball group), even if they outnumber them 5 to 1, unless the Marines make a huge mistake. And that’s exactly how it should be.
You keep crying as a solo player in an MMO about groups existing, but if you actually believe you can min-max your builds so well, then grab a few friends and build a proper 4–5 man comp. Zerg down a ball group and see how far you get.
No, don't dumb the analogy down because it's now ridiculous. There is no way in Oblvion the average ball group player is a trained marine skill level whereas the average solo is a press ganged peasant ( to say nothing that being in a ball group gives players a literal millennium of technological advancements).
Most of us accept that skill and coordination should give comped groups real advantages. What we object to are broken mechanics that allow Cyrodiil to play like a ball group are modern marines and everyone else a peasant.
Nothing more needs to be said past:
solo players get 5 piece sets worth 450wd on cooldowns
Group players get 5 piece sets worth 5k+wd with no cooldowns. "skill"
I’d honestly pay money to see half of you build your own comp, ball up, and try it. On PCNA right now there are maybe 10–15 ball groups running in the past month. Out of those, at most 3 are actually strong enough to fight outnumbered (1–5, ball group vs faction stack), the same way a good 1vXer can 1v5 around a resource.
The rest? They fold instantly any time they aren’t glued to their faction’s zerg, so they default to stacking with it. That’s no different from a solo player who gives up on outnumbered fights and just joins the zerg because it’s the only way they can survive.
So explain to me why pugs who already crutch on zerging in the frontlines who actively avoid putting themselves in situations that would actually improve their combat fundamentals should magically be expected to beat the handful of groups that can do the same as an actually skilled solo player.
Been there done that. I ran with Gott's HoD back in the earlier days when you really only had two or three group sets pop up for healers to run like spc, transmutation, sanctuary. Against far larger zergs. The only reason it was fun was winning while in a disadvantage, I just don't see that existing anymore these days. The way the math works out with so many unique stacking group sets creates a plateau that quickly splits the playerbase which tapers off once you hit the number of sets for 12 player groups. Its not worth getting into that level of endgame again, especially when the game can barely handle the abysmal pop cap. All my coordinated group guilds have abandoned the game because of how dysfunctional the server has been for a decade now.
Ball v Ball situations with random pugs silly because its like dueling your friend and a group of mudcrabs starts light attacking you. The shear stat plateau you sit on has so far removed the mudcrab (pugs) from ever being a threat. At worst one or two of your players gets pulled away and you need to loop around and rez or camp them?
The group component power creeping just moves the ball vs ball and ball vs zerg guild relative to each other. What if we made group sets 20x or 30x the stats.......Ball groups would still be fighting ball groups and zerg guild groups, except you just raised the plateau even more...........Raise it to 100x the stats for grouping, its still just raising the GvG player plateau. Its easier to show on a graph, but its just pointless power creep that raises GvG players into their own game that runs in parallel to the rest of the playerbase.
How come we do not see ball group players asking for 20x stats or 30x stat 5 piece sets? Its because they are already power crept so far past ever being threatened by pugs its a joke.
EDIT: In reality the problem probably has more to do where oldschool we had far more active skill choices mattering in GvG different classes and setups brought so much more difference to the table to try and fill specific roles. Now adays with subclassing even solo 1vX builds are at the point of having nearly every major/minor buff they could ever need. The skill system is bloated beyond belief leaving GvG to distinguish themselves mostly through the set system.
Unfortunately you’re misinformed and clearly don’t understand how ball groups actually work nowadays because you don’t play in one. Even within ball groups there’s a very real skill ceiling, and every single player who’s been in one in the past year can attest to this. If simply copying the best comp was all it took (which can be easily done in this day and age with certain tools), then every ball group would steamroll pugs — but that’s not even remotely the case.
The gap between the top group (singular) and the next tier down is massive, and from there it only gets worse. As I already pointed out, only a small handful of groups are capable of making zergs and pugs feel powerless, and those few are the ones everyone remembers. What people forget are the countless groups that die five minutes into any outnumbered fight.
It’s easy to sit on the outside, dismiss everything as “game balance,” and claim it’s effortless. But I’ll put all my gold on this: if you tried leading a ball group next week, you’d be farmed by zerg stacks for months before even scratching at a decent outnumbered fight. But I guess we’ll never know — easier to just keep pretending ESO should be Skyrim and call it a day.3 -
TheAwesomeChimpanzee✭✭✭✭Anyway, tests are over, and so am I. I’ll be back when the next round starts — or when a dev finally acknowledges the community’s concerns and gives us a reason to actually care about participating in these “tests”, instead of pushing this pathetic excuse of an open-world PvP mode.Edited by TheAwesomeChimpanzee on 30 September 2025 05:321
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Alchimiste1✭✭✭✭✭
✭acastanza_ESO wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »
That's just stacking heals to stall out a fight without killing anyone, like the ball groups on Live, and what the large raid guilds on Vengeance are doing. Their raw numbers flip flags, as opposed to a ball group circling the roof for 40 minutes.acastanza_ESO wrote: »If you could stack heals in a group you could at least try to coordinate fight back against a zerg.
What any large scale PvP needs is for solos/casuals/zergs to be able to put out enough damage to win outnumbered, without the need for the outside-game logistics and hard structure demanded by running in comp groups. This could potentially be accomplished by say, removing offensive AoE caps and restoring the lingering ground AoE on Meatbags.
Your point is lacking any real logical sense. You do this on every thread where you complain about the same things over and over and nothing is ever done to nerf it but you don't really ever take it as a sign. You want people to be able to kill COORDINATED GROUPS, while the lesser groups that aren't a ball group are NOT COORDINATED and also HAVE LESS PEOPOLE. Skills and sets like this already exist to benefit players when they are out numbered. There is no way to make smaller groups able to consistently kill bigger more coordinated groups without breaking the game entirely.
I mean just think of it, it doesn't make sense. Smaller groups can already beat better groups that are stacking heals if the player number isn't extremely significant. If the player number is extremely significant ex. 4v12, and the skill level of the players is similar, it would make zero sense for the 4 to consistently be able to beat the 12. When I go out with my group and I engage groups much bigger than ours, where the players are also skilled, we are aware we are not supposed to win every single engage, that's just what happens.
If you nerf heals or cross heals to a certain number, all you are doing is making that cap the next "ballgroup" number. Groups used to go up to 24 and were much worse, both on the server and for the health of the game's balance. A 12 man group isn't even that bad. Groups of 24 pugs should be able to deal with it unless they are just not great at the game, and guess what, if they aren't great they shouldn't win.
There isn't a logical proposal ever brought up when you engage on this topic, and you do it daily, for hours on end.
In addition, only bad ballgroups just heal stack and don't do anything. My group consistently fights and kills the biggest and best ballgroups in the game. Ballgroups always fight each other and one usually ends up winning. Stalling and perma fighting only happens with zergs who sit there and res each other over and over, which creates more lag than any ballgroup ever will, and no ballgroup ever complains about that lack of balance because guess what, it's just what happens where there are too many people. People aren't asking for ressing to be nerfed so it can't continue the way it does , but that is way healthier for the game than anything else proposed.
Nothing is ever done because devs don’t play PvP against ballgroups and ballgroups lobby against any nerfs successfully and make all other playstiles quit until they are only ones left(also in forum).
Noone is asking for smaller group to beat a larger more coordinated group consistently but there should be a way to do it at all.
If you trade blows with a larger group you loose even if they don’t have crosshealing but if you catch and burst them offguard or oil them they shouldn’t get saved by shared effects when otherwise they would have died.
IRL beeing in a larger group doesn’t protect you from lethal dmg but having larger number is still a usually decisive advantage in fights.xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Solos/pugs need to be able to break these situations or the game dies, as Live has proved.acastanza_ESO wrote: »This is exactly the situation that a ballgroup would be able to break on live.
No, an uncoordinated group should not be able to consistently beat or even seriously disrupt a coordinated larger force. That makes absolutely zero logical sense.
A small coordinated group, however, especially when fighting within a zerg, absolutely can disrupt and even kill 12-man ball groups if they build and coordinate properly. But explain to me how it makes any sense for a random pug running their solo YouTube build to deal lethal damage on their own to a group that has spent far more time and effort min-maxing comps, perfecting roles, and drilling execution specifically to have a competitive advantage.
That’s like saying a thousand untrained peasants should be able to consistently beat a hundred trained marines just because of sheer numbers. Use your brain — preparation, coordination, and skill are supposed to matter.
I already said I don’t ask to consistently beat a larger group but just for a way to kill them.
That a smaller ballgroup can beat a larger ballgroup with help of a zerg is no option or help for non-members of ballgroups.
The marines should have the skills to avoid getting mortally wounded but not survive getting shot in the chest many times without bulletproof vest than kill the peasant by a glancing shot scratching his finger.
You took that parallel way too literally. The point wasn’t to run a military sim, it was dumbed down so even people like you could understand: coordination and skill matter, and they carry far more weight than anything a single pug can put out.
And let’s not pretend solos contribute nothing — you do contribute against a ball group, you just don’t feel it because it’s minimal. Why? Because you didn’t put in the same time, effort, and coordination that the ball group invests into min-maxing comps and perfecting execution. That’s the difference.
You took from that parallel only what fits your agenda and ignore the part contradicting it expecting me to do the same.
Finding that contradiction is taking it too literal for you, others are only allowed to use the part that supports your agenda.
Am I too dumb to understand your arguments (if not dumbed down) or not dumb enaugh to believe them.
While coordination and skill should and do matter ballgroups get even more of their strength from groupbuilds enabling godmode.
Contribution too minimal too feel it is nearly nothing and makes fighting ballgroups or PvP at all when they are everywhere senseless.
Soloplayers also invest time into min-maxing their builds and perfecting their execution and coordination but can’t coordinate with players that are non existent or always changing.
Alright, let’s dumb this down to your level and go back to the example. A thousand peasants would never defeat a hundred trained US Marines in any realistic modern warfare scenario. Surprised I even have to spell that out for you, but here we are.
Yes, the peasants (you) can “optimize” their setup all they want, but they still wouldn’t be able to take on the Marines (the 12-man ball group), even if they outnumber them 5 to 1, unless the Marines make a huge mistake. And that’s exactly how it should be.
You keep crying as a solo player in an MMO about groups existing, but if you actually believe you can min-max your builds so well, then grab a few friends and build a proper 4–5 man comp. Zerg down a ball group and see how far you get.
No, don't dumb the analogy down because it's now ridiculous. There is no way in Oblvion the average ball group player is a trained marine skill level whereas the average solo is a press ganged peasant ( to say nothing that being in a ball group gives players a literal millennium of technological advancements).
Most of us accept that skill and coordination should give comped groups real advantages. What we object to are broken mechanics that allow Cyrodiil to play like a ball group are modern marines and everyone else a peasant.
Nothing more needs to be said past:
solo players get 5 piece sets worth 450wd on cooldowns
Group players get 5 piece sets worth 5k+wd with no cooldowns. "skill"
Everyone has access to exactly the same sets. You choose to coordinate them or not. Blaming the people that do for the failures of the people that don't is an insane inability to understand the core concept of the game.
Ok so when I solo I should just multibox another 11 accounts so I can match the efficiency of another player that chooses to group? That sounds reasonable. I HAVE access to the sets and CAN wear them, the problem is that I will never get the same results from the set unless I am in a group.
If I wear olorime it is worth 430wd
If I wear olorime in a group it is worth 5160wd
For item sets this has just polarized a portion of the population so far beyond the other portion of the population.
1vX, solo, casual groups......... smallman, casual zergs..............................................Guild groups, ball groups.
Its just sad when we see ball groups claiming to be fighting out numbered but in reality they are 12 players with 10x the stats fighting against 40 disjointed pugs. Even if it is ballgroup vs ballgroup 12x10 vs 12x10 and you add 20 random pugs that is like 120 vs 140 assuming those 20 pugs are even doing anything substantial past light attacking.
It is grasping at straws while drastically ruining the performance and play ability of the game for the other half of the population.
This is a game where the endgame is explicitly designed for grouping. Why on earth do you think you deserve to access the same level of power as people who coordinate to actually play the endgame as designed when you won't?
You choose to solo, you choose to accept the lower power ceiling. To demand anything else is actually crazy and completely inconsistent with the core game tenants.
You aren't grasping that it isn't a coordination issue, it is a power scaling issue. If it were just coordination We would see these group sets provide the same standard distributed across the group evenly where the cooldowns and uptimes are just more consistent because of group build coordination. It is just uncalled for to have these group sets worth 10x or more of other sets. You are already winning by population and want to be pat on the back build wise just because you grouped up?
Ball group play and zerg play would be perfectly fine without 10x the stat bonuses on every group member making the other half of the population be no contest. Unless you are worried your 12 man coordinated group is suddenly going to get 1vXed by a solo player still 12x less stats than you. Granted you are used to having/needing 120x that solo player's stats so....
You aren't grasping that power scaling with grouping is explicitly the design intent of the game that IS the result of coordination in character building that the game is designed to have. I agree that some skills, like vigor are overtuned and should have stacking limits (I think 3), but you're out here trying to fundamentally break the core game design to remove deserved power scaling delivered by grouping and coordination. We've seen what breaking that causes with vengenace; a dead campaign where only the faction who stacks the most people together wins. It's trash. If you want a solo pvp game, go play one, this game isn't.
"You are already winning by population and want to be pat on the back build wise just because you grouped up?"
This is just a lie. Ballgroups only run 12, and the ones worth a damn only ever fight 12v12 against other groups, or wildly outnumbered against the zerg with no or minimal ally support.
I think what you aren’t understanding is that people are telling you the current system is dumb, zos should balance things differently because currently ball groups benefit too much from those mechanics.
Zos isn’t exactly known for making the best balance choices so yes they can be wrong. Experienced players are taking you that adjustment is required.
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AngryPenguin✭✭✭✭✭I'll never play a vengeance mode again.
I will not help ZOS take away the PvP I log in to play every day.6 -
Iriidius✭✭✭✭✭acastanza_ESO wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »
That's just stacking heals to stall out a fight without killing anyone, like the ball groups on Live, and what the large raid guilds on Vengeance are doing. Their raw numbers flip flags, as opposed to a ball group circling the roof for 40 minutes.acastanza_ESO wrote: »If you could stack heals in a group you could at least try to coordinate fight back against a zerg.
What any large scale PvP needs is for solos/casuals/zergs to be able to put out enough damage to win outnumbered, without the need for the outside-game logistics and hard structure demanded by running in comp groups. This could potentially be accomplished by say, removing offensive AoE caps and restoring the lingering ground AoE on Meatbags.
Your point is lacking any real logical sense. You do this on every thread where you complain about the same things over and over and nothing is ever done to nerf it but you don't really ever take it as a sign. You want people to be able to kill COORDINATED GROUPS, while the lesser groups that aren't a ball group are NOT COORDINATED and also HAVE LESS PEOPOLE. Skills and sets like this already exist to benefit players when they are out numbered. There is no way to make smaller groups able to consistently kill bigger more coordinated groups without breaking the game entirely.
I mean just think of it, it doesn't make sense. Smaller groups can already beat better groups that are stacking heals if the player number isn't extremely significant. If the player number is extremely significant ex. 4v12, and the skill level of the players is similar, it would make zero sense for the 4 to consistently be able to beat the 12. When I go out with my group and I engage groups much bigger than ours, where the players are also skilled, we are aware we are not supposed to win every single engage, that's just what happens.
If you nerf heals or cross heals to a certain number, all you are doing is making that cap the next "ballgroup" number. Groups used to go up to 24 and were much worse, both on the server and for the health of the game's balance. A 12 man group isn't even that bad. Groups of 24 pugs should be able to deal with it unless they are just not great at the game, and guess what, if they aren't great they shouldn't win.
There isn't a logical proposal ever brought up when you engage on this topic, and you do it daily, for hours on end.
In addition, only bad ballgroups just heal stack and don't do anything. My group consistently fights and kills the biggest and best ballgroups in the game. Ballgroups always fight each other and one usually ends up winning. Stalling and perma fighting only happens with zergs who sit there and res each other over and over, which creates more lag than any ballgroup ever will, and no ballgroup ever complains about that lack of balance because guess what, it's just what happens where there are too many people. People aren't asking for ressing to be nerfed so it can't continue the way it does , but that is way healthier for the game than anything else proposed.
Nothing is ever done because devs don’t play PvP against ballgroups and ballgroups lobby against any nerfs successfully and make all other playstiles quit until they are only ones left(also in forum).
Noone is asking for smaller group to beat a larger more coordinated group consistently but there should be a way to do it at all.
If you trade blows with a larger group you loose even if they don’t have crosshealing but if you catch and burst them offguard or oil them they shouldn’t get saved by shared effects when otherwise they would have died.
IRL beeing in a larger group doesn’t protect you from lethal dmg but having larger number is still a usually decisive advantage in fights.xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Solos/pugs need to be able to break these situations or the game dies, as Live has proved.acastanza_ESO wrote: »This is exactly the situation that a ballgroup would be able to break on live.
No, an uncoordinated group should not be able to consistently beat or even seriously disrupt a coordinated larger force. That makes absolutely zero logical sense.
A small coordinated group, however, especially when fighting within a zerg, absolutely can disrupt and even kill 12-man ball groups if they build and coordinate properly. But explain to me how it makes any sense for a random pug running their solo YouTube build to deal lethal damage on their own to a group that has spent far more time and effort min-maxing comps, perfecting roles, and drilling execution specifically to have a competitive advantage.
That’s like saying a thousand untrained peasants should be able to consistently beat a hundred trained marines just because of sheer numbers. Use your brain — preparation, coordination, and skill are supposed to matter.
I already said I don’t ask to consistently beat a larger group but just for a way to kill them.
That a smaller ballgroup can beat a larger ballgroup with help of a zerg is no option or help for non-members of ballgroups.
The marines should have the skills to avoid getting mortally wounded but not survive getting shot in the chest many times without bulletproof vest than kill the peasant by a glancing shot scratching his finger.
You took that parallel way too literally. The point wasn’t to run a military sim, it was dumbed down so even people like you could understand: coordination and skill matter, and they carry far more weight than anything a single pug can put out.
And let’s not pretend solos contribute nothing — you do contribute against a ball group, you just don’t feel it because it’s minimal. Why? Because you didn’t put in the same time, effort, and coordination that the ball group invests into min-maxing comps and perfecting execution. That’s the difference.
You took from that parallel only what fits your agenda and ignore the part contradicting it expecting me to do the same.
Finding that contradiction is taking it too literal for you, others are only allowed to use the part that supports your agenda.
Am I too dumb to understand your arguments (if not dumbed down) or not dumb enaugh to believe them.
While coordination and skill should and do matter ballgroups get even more of their strength from groupbuilds enabling godmode.
Contribution too minimal too feel it is nearly nothing and makes fighting ballgroups or PvP at all when they are everywhere senseless.
Soloplayers also invest time into min-maxing their builds and perfecting their execution and coordination but can’t coordinate with players that are non existent or always changing.
Alright, let’s dumb this down to your level and go back to the example. A thousand peasants would never defeat a hundred trained US Marines in any realistic modern warfare scenario. Surprised I even have to spell that out for you, but here we are.
Yes, the peasants (you) can “optimize” their setup all they want, but they still wouldn’t be able to take on the Marines (the 12-man ball group), even if they outnumber them 5 to 1, unless the Marines make a huge mistake. And that’s exactly how it should be.
You keep crying as a solo player in an MMO about groups existing, but if you actually believe you can min-max your builds so well, then grab a few friends and build a proper 4–5 man comp. Zerg down a ball group and see how far you get.
No, don't dumb the analogy down because it's now ridiculous. There is no way in Oblvion the average ball group player is a trained marine skill level whereas the average solo is a press ganged peasant ( to say nothing that being in a ball group gives players a literal millennium of technological advancements).
Most of us accept that skill and coordination should give comped groups real advantages. What we object to are broken mechanics that allow Cyrodiil to play like a ball group are modern marines and everyone else a peasant.
Nothing more needs to be said past:
solo players get 5 piece sets worth 450wd on cooldowns
Group players get 5 piece sets worth 5k+wd with no cooldowns. "skill"
Everyone has access to exactly the same sets. You choose to coordinate them or not. Blaming the people that do for the failures of the people that don't is an insane inability to understand the core concept of the game.
Ok so when I solo I should just multibox another 11 accounts so I can match the efficiency of another player that chooses to group? That sounds reasonable. I HAVE access to the sets and CAN wear them, the problem is that I will never get the same results from the set unless I am in a group.
If I wear olorime it is worth 430wd
If I wear olorime in a group it is worth 5160wd
For item sets this has just polarized a portion of the population so far beyond the other portion of the population.
1vX, solo, casual groups......... smallman, casual zergs..............................................Guild groups, ball groups.
Its just sad when we see ball groups claiming to be fighting out numbered but in reality they are 12 players with 10x the stats fighting against 40 disjointed pugs. Even if it is ballgroup vs ballgroup 12x10 vs 12x10 and you add 20 random pugs that is like 120 vs 140 assuming those 20 pugs are even doing anything substantial past light attacking.
It is grasping at straws while drastically ruining the performance and play ability of the game for the other half of the population.
This is a game where the endgame is explicitly designed for grouping. Why on earth do you think you deserve to access the same level of power as people who coordinate to actually play the endgame as designed when you won't?
You choose to solo, you choose to accept the lower power ceiling. To demand anything else is actually crazy and completely inconsistent with the core game tenants.
You aren't grasping that it isn't a coordination issue, it is a power scaling issue. If it were just coordination We would see these group sets provide the same standard distributed across the group evenly where the cooldowns and uptimes are just more consistent because of group build coordination. It is just uncalled for to have these group sets worth 10x or more of other sets. You are already winning by population and want to be pat on the back build wise just because you grouped up?
Ball group play and zerg play would be perfectly fine without 10x the stat bonuses on every group member making the other half of the population be no contest. Unless you are worried your 12 man coordinated group is suddenly going to get 1vXed by a solo player still 12x less stats than you. Granted you are used to having/needing 120x that solo player's stats so....
You aren't grasping that power scaling with grouping is explicitly the design intent of the game that IS the result of coordination in character building that the game is designed to have. I agree that some skills, like vigor are overtuned and should have stacking limits (I think 3), but you're out here trying to fundamentally break the core game design to remove deserved power scaling delivered by grouping and coordination. We've seen what breaking that causes with vengenace; a dead campaign where only the faction who stacks the most people together wins. It's trash. If you want a solo pvp game, go play one, this game isn't.
"You are already winning by population and want to be pat on the back build wise just because you grouped up?"
This is just a lie. Ballgroups only run 12, and the ones worth a damn only ever fight 12v12 against other groups, or wildly outnumbered against the zerg with no or minimal ally support.
Groups in trailer look not like ballgroups but much more like zergs from Vengeance and early years of the game so those seem to be the playstile ZOS intended for Cyrodiil.
Vengeance has also no solo bomber and sieging keep defenders who can help your outnumbered faction all the time because you need only 1 player for it.
while outnumberd faction cant form ballgroup without having 12 players regularly active at same time which rarely happens on dead faction.
Blackreach has all these things and still the faction balance is worse than on Vengeance. GreyHost primetime is only balanced because all factions are capped and nobody can get total higher numbers.
Vengeance I was the same and next Vengeance could be the same with a lower cap reachable for all faction.
Why are zergs a problem to you if all zerged players should play a solo game anyway?
Probably because those zergs are not coordinated and can be joined by everyone on their faction.
How is destroying them good thing?
All zerged players now get farmed by ballgroup insteat until they quit like you want and zergs quitted and other ballgroups wanting to farm zerg cant find one so nobody benefits.
How is the requirement to have 12 players regularly playing together in voicechat with coordinated builds ensuring that only outnumbered faction uses ballgroups?
As only minority of players can every week play at the same time in voicechat with coordinated builds you need many more players on your faction to choose from.
Those numbers are only available on a well populated faction.
I have seen many ballgroups often with more than 12 players on biggest faction ambushing smaller groups or solo players on outnumbered faction unprovocated on sight and pvdooring whole map.3 -
Iriidius✭✭✭✭✭
Some ballgroup players claimed they were doing pretty well or even better than on life to gaslight their victims that they get farmed even worse on Vengeance than on life making them oppose it so blame these ballgroup members if players believe them.acastanza_ESO wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »Primetime on PC NA: Three bars of EP to nothing else. EP at 2-3x AD or DC (combined) pop.
The campaign has zero functional ability to counter superior numbers, so faction stacking every keep always wins.
Then literally gate camping the campaign to death when there's nothing else left.
This has to be the most embarrassing gameplay I've ever seen and it is direct result of Vengeance being an unmitigated failure of game balance.
Speedrunning the Ravenwatch death spiral. GG.
To be fair, it would be exactly the same on live. Sure, a duo would be able to troll around a tower against some random pugs but if fifty people showed up with concerted effort, they'd still be run right over. Keep defenses or offenses would be impossible as well. We had exactly this situation when New World came out for something like, three months IIRC.
Nah. This is exactly the situation that a ballgroup would be able to break on live.
Break? Or LoS, run away from, and heal stack to stall the inevitable for thirty minutes or so?
Break.
The problem is that EP was massively zerg pushing AD and DC gates and gate camping with overwhelming numbers that would not unstack and responded with force to literally anything lighting. This literally killed the campaign because there wasn't anything anyone could do about it. There were zero mechanical counters to the toxic behavior. incentivizing exactly that "winning" toxic behavior.
A ballgroup that they can't kill, but absolutely could take keeps/scrolls and force that zerg onto the defensive could've pulled EP anywhere else allowing the less coordinated groups to actually fight back against the people that were left and break the gate camp.
If you can't see that then you're part of the problem.
That all requires more mechanics in play than just a ballgroup. And if those mechanics *were* in play you wouldn't need a ballgroup to do it. As it is, you can ballgroup on Vengeance as is and still do pretty well - assuming your only incentive is to collect AP, which is the only campaign mechanic in play currently.
"ballgroup on Vengeance as is and still do pretty well" LMAO
This is abject nonsense, you CAN NOT ballgroup in Vengeance and you saying that proves to me you don't actually have even the faintest idea what a ballgroup is, does, or how it works, at all.1 -
Iriidius✭✭✭✭✭MorallyBipolar wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Yeah, I do. The sad state of both Live and Vengeance are all the proof I need.Artisian0001 wrote: »You want people to be able to kill COORDINATED GROUPS
[snip]
This is not a valid thing to respond with. Xylena know how to PvP.
[edited to remove quote]
At one time this were true. Not so much today.
Thank you for exposing what knowing how to PvP means for players like you. If it requires to defend current state of PvP than it is better to get rid of this knowledge.
I always thought it to mean making the right decisions and using the right ability’s at the right time in combat and in eso also coming to fight wearing the right gear.1 -
Kartalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
I think the middle ground is, yes, we need to be able to take advantage of group sets if we choose to run a coordinated group, but the problem is that it's scaling too far out of balance. Maybe more sets should be similar to Rallying Cry, where if you have up to four people in group everyone gets the full benefit and then it diminishes the larger the group gets. Not diminishing quite as much as RC though -- SPC for instance does not apply a unique buff and is smaller in overall magnitude -- but some level of diminishing returns might be healthier overall for the game.acastanza_ESO wrote: »You aren't grasping that power scaling with grouping is explicitly the design intent of the game that IS the result of coordination in character building that the game is designed to have. I agree that some skills, like vigor are overtuned and should have stacking limits (I think 3), but you're out here trying to fundamentally break the core game design to remove deserved power scaling delivered by grouping and coordination. We've seen what breaking that causes with vengenace; a dead campaign where only the faction who stacks the most people together wins. It's trash. If you want a solo pvp game, go play one, this game isn't.
"You are already winning by population and want to be pat on the back build wise just because you grouped up?"
This is just a lie. Ballgroups only run 12, and the ones worth a damn only ever fight 12v12 against other groups, or wildly outnumbered against the zerg with no or minimal ally support.
Also we prefer if we have no ally support, lol
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Tri-faction tryhard but mainly EP in Gray Host lately (PC/NA)
- DISCARNATE - Tertiary Meat - @ Kartalin - Youtube
4 -
Zama666✭✭✭✭If ZOS is learning something for it - I am fine.
Yes, it forces us to play, but for data sake.
7 Days, it was ok
I think stability was better and only got kicked 1 once after 999+ ping
The hope, we can get bug free play in a full game.1 -
CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Artisian0001 wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »People shouting their complaints into the void about solo play like this is a single player RPG and as if vengeance wasn't made with much smaller target caps to prioritize them, and now it's dead. Almost like I've said a thousand times, people who complain don't even know what they want or what they are complaining about.
Smaller target caps don't benefit solo players, they benefit large groups. That's just common sense.
How is that common sense when the large groups can't heal all their group members effectively? Vengeance is made to incentivize people to stop grouping in such large amounts and branch out. That's common sense
Players just refuse to strop grouping.
They don't need to heal all their group members effectively if the players trying to damage them can't choose who they're damaging.
Heals in Vengeance are, for the most part, targeted heals or smart heals. That means you're either manually selecting low health players or the game is selecting low health players for you.
AoE Damage skills in Vengeance are simply choosing 3 players at random. There is no way to focus the low health pockets of players with AoE skills, which heavily incentivises stacking in a zerg.
The attacking solo player will spam their AoE skills and damage people at random, while the Zerg will spam AoE heals and heal only the people that need it the most.
Let's say you're in a small man trying to bomb a Zerg. Your 4 man group perfectly lines up your ultimates and skills right on top of a zerg, except you don't kill anyone because the game decided that each person in your group should damage different players in the zerg at random. The zerg spams AoE heals like the Necro corpse heal, and suddenly all the people that took damage are back up to full because only the people that needed healing were healed.
To actually incentivise solo/small man, heals should be capped and damage skills should be uncapped OR AoE damage skills should prioritize low health targets the same way that AoE heals do.
You are just lying to try to win a point. The AoE targeting on damage isn't random. I know you mainly play BGs but you can at least be truthful in what you're saying. This is why everything on the forums gets ignored when people complain, they just lie about how the game functions.
Except I'm not lying - that's literally how the game works. Healing is always smart, damage is random. AoE Damage in Vengeance simply picks 3 targets at random. Please, by all means, prove us wrong with any amount of evidence instead of dismissing every argument with "nuh uh youre a liar xD"5 -
Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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Some ballgroup players claimed they were doing pretty well or even better than on life to gaslight their victims that they get farmed even worse on Vengeance than on life making them oppose it so blame these ballgroup members if players believe them.acastanza_ESO wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »Primetime on PC NA: Three bars of EP to nothing else. EP at 2-3x AD or DC (combined) pop.
The campaign has zero functional ability to counter superior numbers, so faction stacking every keep always wins.
Then literally gate camping the campaign to death when there's nothing else left.
This has to be the most embarrassing gameplay I've ever seen and it is direct result of Vengeance being an unmitigated failure of game balance.
Speedrunning the Ravenwatch death spiral. GG.
To be fair, it would be exactly the same on live. Sure, a duo would be able to troll around a tower against some random pugs but if fifty people showed up with concerted effort, they'd still be run right over. Keep defenses or offenses would be impossible as well. We had exactly this situation when New World came out for something like, three months IIRC.
Nah. This is exactly the situation that a ballgroup would be able to break on live.
Break? Or LoS, run away from, and heal stack to stall the inevitable for thirty minutes or so?
Break.
The problem is that EP was massively zerg pushing AD and DC gates and gate camping with overwhelming numbers that would not unstack and responded with force to literally anything lighting. This literally killed the campaign because there wasn't anything anyone could do about it. There were zero mechanical counters to the toxic behavior. incentivizing exactly that "winning" toxic behavior.
A ballgroup that they can't kill, but absolutely could take keeps/scrolls and force that zerg onto the defensive could've pulled EP anywhere else allowing the less coordinated groups to actually fight back against the people that were left and break the gate camp.
If you can't see that then you're part of the problem.
That all requires more mechanics in play than just a ballgroup. And if those mechanics *were* in play you wouldn't need a ballgroup to do it. As it is, you can ballgroup on Vengeance as is and still do pretty well - assuming your only incentive is to collect AP, which is the only campaign mechanic in play currently.
"ballgroup on Vengeance as is and still do pretty well" LMAO
This is abject nonsense, you CAN NOT ballgroup in Vengeance and you saying that proves to me you don't actually have even the faintest idea what a ballgroup is, does, or how it works, at all.
I ran with 5-6 people for one night, as someone who has been playing since 2014 the playstyle reminded me a lot of original cyrodiil. It was worse but in terms of tactics it was similar - even some old oil trap setups were good to play around.
It will be 100% possible to play in what people now call a 'ball group' style in Vengeance. Even with 3 dd's we were able to wipe larger numbers in coordinated pushes (since destro ulti is so cheap). The issue with such fewer amounts of people was survivability. This would likely be solved by going up to 12 since it would allow for the introduction of purge and rapids spammers (mainly to cleanse oil and meatbag debuffs).
There is the potential that it would be harder to kill such groups in vengeance since if the damage cap is maintained stacking becomes the optimal way to play (no VD etc). However groups on live right now are probably in their strongest state since launch so I personally wouldn't claim it will be 'stronger' in vengeance.
Overall I dislike vengeance, ZOS has sold everyone power via gear and skills over the years and to remove this would essentially be removing items which were paid for.
@Solar_Breeze
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EU ~ Izanagi: Banana Squad (AOE Rats/ Zerg Squad / Roleplay Circle)2