stop with "accomplish a BG" in daily endeavors

Ishtarknows · September 9

Queuing for a BG without any attempt at gearing up for it or not attempting to perform the objectives should be looked upon the same as fake tanking or healing in dungeons. Fake queuing for PvP isn't fair on the rest of your team. Sure, as someone suggested the other team might get a quick, easy win (lucky them) but what about the team you're on?

FatOldGamer · September 9

Ishtarknows wrote: »

Queuing for a BG without any attempt at gearing up for it or not attempting to perform the objectives should be looked upon the same as fake tanking or healing in dungeons. Fake queuing for PvP isn't fair on the rest of your team. Sure, as someone suggested the other team might get a quick, easy win (lucky them) but what about the team you're on?

People that don't like PvP and don't want to do PvP shouldn't have to get the gear to do PvP just to complete endeavours.

Objectives?
No idea what they are, don't care what they are.

(these are just example reasons for people going into BG to do endeavours unprepared, I just don't bother doing the BG endeavours myself).

ZOS should simply stop giving BG endeavours, then you won't have the problem.

Morvan · September 9

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Morvan wrote: »

<snipped image>
How hard is it to pick 3 locks, defeat 5 slimes and craft 4 woodworking items? You can literally do all that in less than 10 minutes.

I was going to run a BG either way today so that saved me one endeavor, there are 5 dailies and you only need 3, stop acting like system is making you do PvP, because it isn't.

Xarc wrote: »

You know why ?

because MOST OF PEOPLE DONT CARE PVP and :
- RUIN every BG
- dont have any PVP skill, just here for daily, they die on one shot, litterally

Everytime this is the same scenario. PLEASE STOP .

Or change it to "WIN a BG", maybe that will motivate them to jump into the arena and play a little more seriously?

"Most people don't care about pvp", where did you get that statistic from? Really curious to hear that.
"Ruin every BG", you mean, for the people who totally didn't have to go there and yet chose to? I'm sure PvPers won't mind an easy win.

ESO has lacked PvP content for years, stop trying to take away the few things we get, especially the ones that you are not even remotely forced to interact with.

I think you may have misunderstood the OP's viewpoint. They weren't hatng on PvP being forced on them. They were bemoaning their PvP experience being sullied with undesirables.

Not that I agree either way. <shrug>

I did get what OP meant, thing is, having PvP related endeavors will never be a problem, and in this case it might even make new people try and actually enjoy PvP if they invest on it, OP argument is pretty much gatekeep BGs just because they don't want to play with new players, completely ignoring that everyone, including OP, were also a newbie at some point.

Hapexamendios · September 9

It's one of 5 options. Choose from the other 4 and be done with it.

Morvan · September 9

Ishtarknows wrote: »

Queuing for a BG without any attempt at gearing up for it or not attempting to perform the objectives should be looked upon the same as fake tanking or healing in dungeons. Fake queuing for PvP isn't fair on the rest of your team. Sure, as someone suggested the other team might get a quick, easy win (lucky them) but what about the team you're on?

For those issues you guys should be discussing about queueing, MMR and AFK punishment systems, removing BG endeavors won't prevent anyone from doing that.

Even without PvP events or endeavors you'll very often find a disparity between two groups on BGs that the losing side will just sit at base since they'll notice nothing can be done about it, this says more about the Battleground system itself than any of the issues listed on this thread.

spartaxoxo · September 10

Ishtarknows wrote: »

Queuing for a BG without any attempt at gearing up for it or not attempting to perform the objectives should be looked upon the same as fake tanking or healing in dungeons. Fake queuing for PvP isn't fair on the rest of your team. Sure, as someone suggested the other team might get a quick, easy win (lucky them) but what about the team you're on?

I disagree. Fake tanking can be solved by using a single skill. Builds are things that require many hours of planning. It's reasonable to expect people have the basic skills. It's not reasonable to expect people have full kits and an total understanding of what they're doing before they have even started. There needs to be room to be bad at the game, especially at the beginning.

The game requires a completely different skill set to PvE vs PvP, it's not as simple as slapping on one skill in the flex spot on your bar.

peacenote · September 10

This seems to be another version of the semi-regular debate about ZOS's overarching strategy to entice players to play all aspects of the game: does it help encourage players to spread their wings and enjoy more of the game, or does it simply "force" players to do un-fun content that they don't enjoy, while simultaneously ruining the experience for those who do enjoy the activity?

I am here to tell you that, of all the strategies, this is one from which I have never seen ZOS stray, so I doubt that a potential issue that's particular to whether battlegrounds are less fun for certain players when the option to play a battleground pops up as an endeavor is hardly going to be the scenario that sways ZOS to give up this idea. I personally am skeptical that an endeavor would drive that much traffic to BG's and cause such a change in the average skillset of people in the queue that one would notice this kind of a difference... but I'll fully admit I don't play them enough to know firsthand and anecdotally attest otherwise. The increase in traffic would have to be really large (or the community of BG players would need to be EXTREMELY small), and the other competing endeavors would consistently have to be a larger pain with a larger time commitment on those days.

Not that it matters, but I personally am a fan of the carrot strategy that ZOS uses to encourage us to try other areas of the game, although I do think that they should be aware of how large their game has become, and provide alternate ways of providing rewards that a) are especially subject to RNG and b) tied to an activity that is unrelated to the reward. For example, leads that are tied to the current meta Mythic for PvE shouldn't be behind a fishing node, and a gear set clearly intended for PvP shouldn't drop in a trial. There's carrots, and then there's cruelty.

I think it's nice that BGs can be an option in endeavors, and it doesn't happen every day, so in my opinion I don't think ZOS should change this unless they want to change strategies, and are willing to change all of the scenarios where unfamiliar players are encouraged (or "forced," depending on your viewpoint) into content they'd usually avoid.

jle30303 · September 10

THIng is... If one team is getting curbstomped... then the matchmaking is bad *because it hasn't distributed the bad players and the good players evenly between the teams*.

There are times when I get the impression that, out of the 8 or 16 players involved in a given battleground, it's putting the top half all in one team, and the bottom half all in the other team.

If *each* team were reliably a mix of good PVPers and crappy PVPers... then sometimes the good ones would end up having to fight each other, and sometimes the bad ones would actually end up, by the fortunes of battle, fighting against opponents they could actually defeat...

DenverRalphy · September 10

Xarc wrote: »

This isn't a debate about whether CP is important; we don't care.

You're the one that brought it up. All the same, CP beyond 160 doesn't mean squat in BG's period. All it will indicate is how long a player has been playing. CP and/or Seniority, are no measure of skill or capability.

Any matchmaking system worth its weight in salt is based around performance record/stats. [edit] And ranking. But given there's no ranking system that's just not feasible.

kargen27 · September 10

Xarc wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Never done a BG, never will. And I almost always manage to get 3/3 endeavors.

Horace-Wimp wrote: »

Just don't do that Endeavor.

That's not the point.

We should be able to play BGs for fun, without having to deal with those who come just to die without trying to win, just because they have to complete a daily endeavour.

Just think how those that want to do a full dungeon run feel when every day they get speed runners that just want the daily XP reward for a random.
The endeavors are incentives to try different things. Battlegrounds could use more players participating. Maybe the endeavors will attract players to battlegrounds outside of the endeavor.

kargen27 · September 10

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Ishtarknows wrote: »

Queuing for a BG without any attempt at gearing up for it or not attempting to perform the objectives should be looked upon the same as fake tanking or healing in dungeons. Fake queuing for PvP isn't fair on the rest of your team. Sure, as someone suggested the other team might get a quick, easy win (lucky them) but what about the team you're on?

I disagree. Fake tanking can be solved by using a single skill. Builds are things that require many hours of planning. It's reasonable to expect people have the basic skills. It's not reasonable to expect people have full kits and an total understanding of what they're doing before they have even started. There needs to be room to be bad at the game, especially at the beginning.

The game requires a completely different skill set to PvE vs PvP, it's not as simple as slapping on one skill in the flex spot on your bar.

Slap on one skill and you are still a lousy tank. PvE skills are not disabled when you go into Battlegrounds. You can still use them against other players and that is PvP every bit as much as a player with one taunt is a tank. Maybe more. Standing on a flag blocking so you are harder to kill in certain battlegrounds is being much better for your participation than some player in a dungeon with one taunt thinking he is now a tank.
Standing on the ledge is not participating. Once you jump down you are fully engaged in PvP and even with a PvE build if you don't just stand there you can contribute. Nah the DPS that slots one taunt that in all likely hood he will forget to keep up is much worse than the player that goes into battlegrounds with PvE gear. Much worse

Gabriel_H · September 10

Xarc wrote: »

Logically, CP reflects a player's seniority (except in the rare cases of multiple accounts).

It reflects someone's time spent in-game. I'm at 2000+ CP, I only recently started spending a regular amount of time in BGs, having barely touched them until now. ESO is massive. There is lots to do.

Xarc wrote: »

BUT waiting on the ledge and then suddenly jumping in without attacking and letting himself be killed? I call that "not caring."

Or not understanding. You are basing your statement on a feeling, not evidence.

Xarc wrote: »

This isn't a debate about whether CP is important; we don't care.

You were the one who brought CP into the debate.

Gabriel_H · September 10

peacenote wrote: »

This seems to be another version of the semi-regular debate about ZOS's overarching strategy to entice players to play all aspects of the game

There are 5 options, a mix of various game aspects, so that everyone has endeavours close to their wheelhouse. It's not ZOS trying to encourage people into all aspects, it's because ZOS know not everyone does.

spartaxoxo · September 10

kargen27 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Ishtarknows wrote: »

Queuing for a BG without any attempt at gearing up for it or not attempting to perform the objectives should be looked upon the same as fake tanking or healing in dungeons. Fake queuing for PvP isn't fair on the rest of your team. Sure, as someone suggested the other team might get a quick, easy win (lucky them) but what about the team you're on?

I disagree. Fake tanking can be solved by using a single skill. Builds are things that require many hours of planning. It's reasonable to expect people have the basic skills. It's not reasonable to expect people have full kits and an total understanding of what they're doing before they have even started. There needs to be room to be bad at the game, especially at the beginning.

The game requires a completely different skill set to PvE vs PvP, it's not as simple as slapping on one skill in the flex spot on your bar.

Slap on one skill and you are still a lousy tank. PvE skills are not disabled when you go into Battlegrounds. You can still use them against other players and that is PvP every bit as much as a player with one taunt is a tank. Maybe more. Standing on a flag blocking so you are harder to kill in certain battlegrounds is being much better for your participation than some player in a dungeon with one taunt thinking he is now a tank.
Standing on the ledge is not participating. Once you jump down you are fully engaged in PvP and even with a PvE build if you don't just stand there you can contribute. Nah the DPS that slots one taunt that in all likely hood he will forget to keep up is much worse than the player that goes into battlegrounds with PvE gear. Much worse

I don't disagree. I mean, I call my own DPS with just a taunt a fake tank for this very reason. I'm just saying that tons of people draw the line between fake and real tank based purely on if you can aggro and hold the boss still. That's a very low barrier compared to expecting someone to be fully kitted out and skillful at PvP. Expecting everyone entering PvP to already have a full PvP build and some degree of skill the second they enter PvP isn't reasonable.

Gabriel_H · September 10

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I don't disagree. I mean, I call my own DPS with just a taunt a fake tank for this very reason. I'm just saying that tons of people draw the line between fake and real tank based purely on if you can aggro and hold the boss still. That's a very low barrier compared to expecting someone to be fully kitted out and skillful at PvP. Expecting everyone entering PvP to already have a full PvP build and some degree of skill the second they enter PvP isn't reasonable.

Sure, in a base game normal dungeon, but anything above that requires more. It requires knowledge of mechanics, a suitable build, the correct levels of mitigation (which can vary from dungeon to dungeon, or even boss to boss), self-healing awareness for when healers are occupied trying to keep DDs up and more.

It's exactly the same for battlegrounds BUT the key difference is that unlike in dungeons where the player chooses the difficulty level, in BGs ZOS (or specifically the MMR system) choose the difficulty for you. And therein lies the problem.

The OPs point is badly worded, rude, and reeks of elitism, but they are also not wholly wrong (at least at a basic level), they are just blaming the wrong people. If experienced PvPers are consistently coming across mutltiple novices on BG endeavour days then the questions that should be being debated are: Why aren't they all in the same BG fighting each other? Why is the MMR system putting novices in with experienced players?

Xarc · September 10

Gabriel_H wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

This seems to be another version of the semi-regular debate about ZOS's overarching strategy to entice players to play all aspects of the game

There are 5 options, a mix of various game aspects, so that everyone has endeavours close to their wheelhouse. It's not ZOS trying to encourage people into all aspects, it's because ZOS know not everyone does.

I don't do BGs for endeavors, but I find myself with those who want to quickly participate in a BG and quickly finish it the day it comes up in the list of 5 possibilities.

If I were talking about CP, it's just a suggestion that there are all kinds of players completely mixed up, and I don't think that's a good thing. We're not in Cyrodiil, where the aspects are completely different, where there are guilds that take the time to train players, etc.
Besides, if ZOS implemented an MMR, it's not for nothing. Now, it needs to work.

Ttree · September 10

Xarc wrote: »

You know why ?

because MOST OF PEOPLE DONT CARE PVP and :
- RUIN every BG
- dont have any PVP skill, just here for daily, they die on one shot, litterally

Everytime this is the same scenario. PLEASE STOP .

Or change it to "WIN a BG", maybe that will motivate them to jump into the arena and play a little more seriously?

Yes try this and see how even worse it gets

Gabriel_H · September 10

Xarc wrote: »

I don't do BGs for endeavors, but I find myself with those who want to quickly participate in a BG and quickly finish it the day it comes up in the list of 5 possibilities.

IF it is happening to you consistently then that suggests a large number of novice PvPers are joining BGs. So why are they not all being matched against each other?

Your complaint simply isn't valid because the problem isn't novices joining, it's an MMR problem, possibly worsened by a population problem. So why lay the blame on the novices and not the system?

G0K4R · September 10

The endeavors system wants to give players an incentive to do something different / new.

The "accomplish a BG" endeavor would actually be good. If BGs would be better...

... I'd prefer to finally fix or at least improve BGs and keep the "accomplish a BG" endeavor than getting rid of the endeavor. I know, it's unrealistic.

kregora · September 10

Xarc wrote: »

You know why ?

Or change it to "WIN a BG", maybe that will motivate them to jump into the arena and play a little more seriously?

Last time I did those, it still was, that you need to "WIN" for the daily experience bonus.
Since I didn't do it for quite some time, I wonder if 4v4 competitive PvP is still the "default" for battlegrounds?
If yes, then there is your issue.
Yes, I understand that you are upset, when people don't come geared up for the PvP enthusiast battle grounds.
But I pretty expect, that not everyone in more casual 8v8 matches brings the 'right" gear.

Sarannah · September 10

Maybe ZOS can 'force' more group/MMO participation in overall dungeons and BGs if they make a static daily dungeon endeavour and static daily BG endeavour as permanent 6th/7th daily endeavour choice that grants the same amounts of points as one of the other random 3/5. Basically giving players a daily choice to either do one or both of these static group daily endeavours or pick some of the other random 5.

Would create more participation on the MMO side of the game.

PS: This would also mean that during some ticket events players do not have to take time out of their event to complete some of the out-of-the-way endeavours, but can instead choose to do dungeons during undaunted or a BG during mayhem, etc.

Gabriel_H · September 10

Sarannah wrote: »

Maybe ZOS can 'force' more group/MMO participation in overall dungeons and BGs if they make a static daily dungeon endeavour and static daily BG endeavour as permanent 6th/7th daily endeavour choice that grants the same amounts of points as one of the other random 3/5. Basically giving players a daily choice to either do one or both of these static group daily endeavours or pick some of the other random 5.

Would create more participation on the MMO side of the game.

PS: This would also mean that during some ticket events players do not have to take time out of their event to complete some of the out-of-the-way endeavours, but can instead choose to do dungeons during undaunted or a BG during mayhem, etc.

It's a lazy fix that hides the problem. If the OP's premise is true it suggests large numbers of novice PvPers in BGs on endeavour days, being matched up against seasoned veterans - that's an MMR problem; and one that exists regardless of any daily endeavour.

Xarc · September 10

Okay, let's be clear:
- I'm not against BG novices. It's normal; everyone starts one day.
- The problem is putting "participate in a BG" as an endeavor, without a victory condition. This attracts people who don't necessarily want to play and who passively wait for the match to end. We see all levels, from novice to try-harder.

- Too many people think this is a great way to introduce players to PvP. But I think you're wrong. We all have our own opinions, of course, but for me, mixing everyone together isn't going to achieve that. On the contrary, you risk turning off novices who find themselves against "pros" and frustrating players who find themselves on their own team... Doing this doesn't help anyone.
Improve the MMR.

Gabriel_H · September 10

Xarc wrote: »

Okay, let's be clear:
- I'm not against BG novices. It's normal; everyone starts one day.
- The problem is putting "participate in a BG" as an endeavor, without a victory condition. This attracts people who don't necessarily want to play and who passively wait for the match to end. We see all levels, from novice to try-harder.

And yet the flaw in your premise remains. The problem isn't novices joining; your complaint is them joining YOUR BG as a seasoned veteran - that is an MMR problem - it's a population problem.

Those things exist with or without the endeavour attracting novices. It speaks to an actual problem, and that is not novices joining BGs but being matched by the MMR system against people who have far more experience.

kiwi_tea · September 10

100% agree that the system's poor respect for MMR is the issue. And maybe the BGs population is low and ZOS feels that justifies the present system, but imo it suppresses the population because there's no entry-level lobbies. People play once or twice, then decide it's not for them because all the lobbies are filled with first-timers and people who hide or use Arcanist beam vs actual PVP players and builds. If a team doesn't get a few of the latter on it, that team is doomed.

noblecron · September 10

I'm all for stopping it as an endeavour as well. I gave up trying to even get in one after an hour queue

IT would also be nice if they gave more variety to the master writs too instead of the majority requiring nirn from Craglorn and perfect roe

DrogB · September 10

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

I’m so down for changing those endeavors to “win a battleground,” though I also think scoreboard rank should determine your rewards, too. Stand on flag or get 2k AP max!

So a players endeavors reward is dependent on who they are matched with and/or against? If scoreboard rank determines reward, ganking and spawn killing newbs would be rewarded.

No, I mean general BG rewards should depend on your score. You don't get that many points killing unless it's around an objective except in deathmatch, then the noobs are gonna get pwned anyway. I can get on my least-PvP toons and still get at the top or near the top of scoreboards simply by playing objective. Objective determines score, and it's a good metric of who's actually trying to win the BG versus who's there to either stand at spawn and heavy attack or just get kills.

I agree with what you say. I notice it myself. As much as I try to create a build suitable for PVP, I just can't play in deathmatch, and I can tell you it's frustrating even for those who want to try a game mode other than PVE. In objective-based battles, I always manage to place in the top 3 and even gain a significant score, without even getting a single kill. This is because many players, like goats, don't dedicate themselves to the objective but simply focus on eliminating other players, making it easy for even the least experienced and skilled to reach the objective. Furthermore, if you don't have a well-structured team in deathmatch, you'll always have difficulty. In fact, when I enter that mode, I always quit because I know it's pointless to participate. Once they realize you have a fairly robust build, you become like honey to flies, turning into an 8vs1. Honestly, I don't know what the solution would be, but for now, I feel like objectives make everything more balanced. I also think that adding a BG level could help better build teams and make BG PVP more balanced.

Blood_again · September 10

Currently I play BGs daily. Why are you trying to take out my easy endeavor points for the activity I already do? Just because you don't like your random mates?

When you go random, you get random players in your group.
If you wanna have some good and motivated teammates, just run a premade group.

Also working MMR would be good, if there were many players eager to join BGs.
What you suggest is actually draining the player queue which is really poor already. Meeting with the same people in BGs again and again won't lie.

Giraffon · September 10

BGs are no fun most of the time because the hardcore players always seem to be on the same team and working together a little too well.

I've been playing them a lot recently for the loot drops, but they drive me crazy!

Veinblood1965 · September 10

Maybe there just needs to be a vengeance type BG, that way newbies will sort of be on a level playing field.