Hard Group Checks in U47 Dungeons

robpr · July 2

So I guess I wont fill the stickerbook for that dungeon anytime soon. Most of my guildies do the achievements in the first week and the content becomes dead. I might get a run or two if I want gear then I feel bad to drag them through the content they already completed. I can collect those solo, as I did with Runecarver's Blaze and Jerensi Bladestorm or any mythic leads placed there at my own pace and whenever I want.
Placing 2 pressure plates at the start of the dungeon is just lazy and does not add anything to the dungeon. The 'bash to free the person' mechanics feel more 'designed for groups' than the plates.

Malyore · July 2

I agree it's dumb. Quests and story aside, the largest reason I became a solo player is because I could not rely on groups even being able to exist for content. Dungeon finder and group finder can take over an hour (or multiple) to get a group, depending on the content. Rather than wasting time standing around waiting for strangers whom may be bane or benefit to the dungeon experience, it's instead preferable to just go through it by myself with an NPC.

People can moan all they want about how "it's an MMO", which nobody is denying. But what good is chest-thumping behind that title if we can't even get multiple players to create a group for group content.
Even with the guild system, which creates more reliable people to group with, sometimes it can still take way more effort trying to get enough people on board to go through a dungeon than it actually takes just going through a dungeon with less than 4 players.

AzuraFan · July 2

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

I'm not surprised. I've noticed that the game seems to be moving towards more group play. This is just another example of that. A bit tone deaf, given the calls for doing dungeons with companions, or a story mode, and threads asking for changes in the dungeons that aren't already soloable to make them soloable.

Could you give more examples which underlines your statement? Because the last updates were always based in favor of soloplay.
Companions - Replacing players with NPCs
Oakensoul ring - provides all buffs that usually other players apply on you
Subclassing - even better combos for solo play

I don't think they were targeted to solo play. They were meant to raise the floor in terms of the dmg players can do (except companions, but...).

Companions in no way replace a player. They can't do stuff like stand on pressure plates, so dungeons that aren't currently soloable due to that type of mechanic still aren't soloable with a companion. They also die a lot easier than a competent player does. And you can only have one active, so you can't fill a group with them (like take three into a dungeon). I can't say that I can solo anything that I couldn't before because I have a companion along.

Oakensoul helps, but it's not a replacement for other players.

Subclassing yes, but only if you don't mind not playing a pure class. For people like me who play one character only and want to stay pure, it's useless.

But all your examples are combat-focused. There are activities that aren't combat-focused but can be enjoyed solo...

The biggest sign is the content being released. Story content is essentially solo content. We've gone from one huge chapter and a Q4 story DLC a year, to one small chapter a year. However, we're still getting the same number of dungeons every year (and now a new one that will be impossible to solo), and the same number of trials (AFAIK - I don't care about them so I don't keep up with what's what).

Then there's antiquities - more and more leads are being placed in group content.

Then there's the IA - it's one area ZOS introduced that seems to get an update with every content release. Yes, you can solo it, but it's clearly meant for two players (real players, not player + companion).

All I can say is that in my experience as a mainly solo player (I have grouped A LOT in the past for dungeons), there's less content for me with each subsequent release, to the point that I'll soon run out of stuff to do. Your experience might differ.

That's fine. Games change. If ZOS wants to focus more on group content, that's their decision, so I'm not complaining. But it's a trend I've noticed and commented on before in the forums. I'd love to see that change with the 2026 content, but I'm not optimistic, given the trend.

Baertram · July 2

This hostile design is completely unnecessary and just excludes solo players from the content.

Surprise, this is a MMO RPG, no solo player game

Without wanting to sound rude here, but:
I do not understand all that whining about missing solo play possibilities. If you want to play solo maybe try other games?
The Elder Scrolls "offline" got many games already.

And even within ESO you can do almost 80% solo.
ESO was shifted in the past years from a great MMO to a solo playable game, and you guys still want more and more.
That ruined the game for many group players, really.
ZOs follows all that whining since years to make the paying solo player not leave (making the paying group players instead leave?).

And I get that you also want to just login and play alone, totally doing the same often enough.
But not for any dungeons. That's group content, and this is good.
If there is any mechanics that need a group, perfect.
If there is any mechanics we cannot focus-down by damage, even more perfect.

Beside that there aren't many of these mechanics that prevent you to open doors etc. if not grouped, afaik?
So about how many dungeons do we talk here actually? 2?

Many players think group content means the group must be considerate of *their* individual values. No one seems to understand what a subjective reality is anymore.

I totally agree here. And we got guild tools, and offline websites and search engines too, to find a guild matching our playstyle too.
But not anymore if you guys want to have more and more solo playable content...

Varana · July 2

And again, all of this is fine and dandy if the content actually were designed to necessitate two people.

What most in here are objecting to is the extremely lazy replacement of mechanics with a simple check box. That is neither content nor design, that is a cop-out.

If there are mechanics in the dungeon that require two people, then players will notice and come with two people, and the pressure plates are unnecessary.
If the dungeon does not really require two people, then the gatekeeping by pressure plates is unnecessary because clearly, the dungeon was not designed to need two people.

In either case, nobody needs the pressure plates.

And more generally, "intended gameplay" is fine - as a friendly suggestion. If players find a way around the "intended gameplay" through creative solutions using the tools provided by the game, then that creativity should be celebrated. Including by the designers.

Like hm Scalecaller - the Zaan fight was clearly designed to require a group. Still, players have managed to solo it, through skills like Precognition, i.e. without exploiting a bug or something like that. That is a good thing, and not something to be patched out or prevented by artificial gatekeeping.

AzuraFan · July 2

Baertram wrote: »

And I get that you also want to just login and play alone, totally doing the same often enough.
But not for any dungeons. That's group content, and this is good.

As a mainly solo player, I agree! The only reason I ever wanted to do dungeons is because there's stuff gated by them, like antiquities leads.

And even within ESO you can do almost 80% solo.

I'm so tired of hearing this because it completely misses the point.

In Firor's last letter (I believe), he said ZOS wanted to shift the focus from new content (like meaty chapters) to systems. I understand why. Story content is time-consuming and expensive (resource and money-wise) to produce. Adding gameplay to existing areas in a way that keeps players busy is cheaper.

The problem here is that there is NO system in the game for the solo PvE player. There's nothing to keep players like me, who prefer to solo, busy. By solo, I mean a system that is PvE, and does not require entering dungeons, trials, or PvP areas. It does not require grouping in any way, shape, or form.

If there was a system in this game for me, the solo player, I wouldn't care at all what's happening with dungeons and other grouped activities. But there isn't.

Antiquities - no. There are leads in dungeons, trials, and PvP areas. Yes, we have the two special vendors, but with only 4 leads a week and some leads required 3x to complete the codex, and with the vendors offering static leads and other easy to get ones, it's not a solution to this problem. So scratch antiquities as a solo system.

Stickerbook - a group system.

Collecting lorebooks - a group system. There are lorebooks in dungeons, trials, PvP areas.

Story content - could have been a great solo system, if not for AwA. I know that didn't kill repeating story content for everyone, but it did for me. And there's not really any rewards for completing story content more than once. Dungeons, you can fill a stickerbook. Trials, same. Antiquities - you can fill a codex. Story rewards the second time around - you get the same stuff you got the first time around.

Endeavors and golden pursuits aren't systems with interesting gameplay - they're busywork.

Because there are no systems for the solo player, I'm somewhere I never thought I'd be. Seeing the exit ramp, not because I want to exit, but because there will just be nothing for me to do.

Solo players are looking for stuff to do and it's frustrating when nothing can be completed - not the codex, not lorebooks, not the sticker book, nothing, without having to group. That's why some solo players want to do dungeons and trials and such. Not because we really want to, but because we can't complete anything without doing them.

So when I hear, "But there's so much to do for solo players," I'm asking what??? After I've completed the story content, what is there for me to do that I can COMPLETE on my own? Please, tell me. I'm looking for a reason to stick around. From my perspective, there's a ton to do for those who like to group - so many collectible systems they can complete. For me, nothing. Nada.

If ZOS wants to retain players who only want to solo, they need to introduce a system for us. Something collectible. Something that uses all the zones. Something like lorebooks, which I loved collecting until I realized there was no point, given that some are gated in group content. Something that does not and will never require dungeons, trials, or PvP zones, or grouping with another player in any way, shape, or form. Scatter thousands of somethings across all the zones, with cool rewards or three along the way for collecting them, and I'd be a happy player here for months. Or come up with something else with the potential to keep solo players busy - maybe add different levels of rewards for repeating the story content. Something. Anything. But there's nothing.

Elvenheart · July 2

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

I don’t mind the pressure plate per se, but the first time I do any dungeon, I do like to solo it to take my personal time to explore and enjoy the dungeon the first time at my own personal pace. Listen to all the dialog and read all the books and absorb/enjoy the story, look at the decor and design, and fully explore the dungeon. I can easily take 2–3 hours to fully explore and enjoy a dungeon when it first comes out.

Artificially removing this choice is tone-deaf on ZOS part. Guess I will have to ask someone to come in long enough to stand on the plate so I can enjoy it myself, which is dumb design. Please remove it or at least allow me to direct one of my companions to be able to stand on one of the plates.

Stay safe

I thought about this, but I think the person would have to stay grouped for the whole time even if they go somewhere else, because otherwise the dungeon kick out timer would kick in if they left the group right after standing on the pressure plate.

I understand some people’s arguments that a group dungeon should be an experience for a group, but that shouldn’t mean that people couldn’t try to solo it if they want to. If they can or can’t should be determined by the difficulty of the bosses, not because they are artificially blocked by some platform mechanic. Up until now I really thought ZOS was listening and was limiting these types of things out of consideration for the players. Awhile back I know the secret encounters in one dungeon required two or more players, but they are optional so I was disappointed I couldn’t try them but that didn’t stop me from finishing the dungeon. Putting this platform mechanic in place is so disappointing. 🙁

Soarora · July 2

Elvenheart wrote: »

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

I don’t mind the pressure plate per se, but the first time I do any dungeon, I do like to solo it to take my personal time to explore and enjoy the dungeon the first time at my own personal pace. Listen to all the dialog and read all the books and absorb/enjoy the story, look at the decor and design, and fully explore the dungeon. I can easily take 2–3 hours to fully explore and enjoy a dungeon when it first comes out.

Artificially removing this choice is tone-deaf on ZOS part. Guess I will have to ask someone to come in long enough to stand on the plate so I can enjoy it myself, which is dumb design. Please remove it or at least allow me to direct one of my companions to be able to stand on one of the plates.

Stay safe

I thought about this, but I think the person would have to stay grouped for the whole time even if they go somewhere else, because otherwise the dungeon kick out timer would kick in if they left the group right after standing on the pressure plate.

I understand some people’s arguments that a group dungeon should be an experience for a group, but that shouldn’t mean that people couldn’t try to solo it if they want to. If they can or can’t should be determined by the difficulty of the bosses, not because they are artificially blocked by some platform mechanic. Up until now I really thought ZOS was listening and was limiting these types of things out of consideration for the players. Awhile back I know the secret encounters in one dungeon required two or more players, but they are optional so I was disappointed I couldn’t try them but that didn’t stop me from finishing the dungeon. Putting this platform mechanic in place is so disappointing. 🙁

The player can log out and play on another character, just can't leave the group.

Snamyap · July 2

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Never seen a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE community so upset that they have to play with other players.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/678081/how-often-do-you-play-solo/p1

Reginald_leBlem · July 2

Do I play dungeons solo? Never. Do I think adding a pressure plate to force people.to group up is a good choice? Nope.

People like the challenge of trying to solo trifectas. Strong dds often find it easier to farm gear on normal solo than grouping up via group finder with people who are going to whine about speeding. Some people just like to solo dungeons. Why lock them out of it?

"People don't have this complaint about trials!"

And with a few minutes of critical thinking, you too could understand why that is.

tsaescishoeshiner · July 3

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Never seen a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE community so upset that they have to play with other players.

Not a bad point. But, for example, I liked to listen to all the dialogue and read all the lorebooks the first time I play a dungeon. Sometimes I can't find someone else who's also interested in patiently taking that long. So, soloing it lets me do that.

They could implement a middlegrond where, for example, the switches take a long time if you're solo, but are instant if you have two people. That way, a solo player could complete it with minor inconvenience, while groups still have the incentive to learn how to help one another.

spartaxoxo · July 3

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Never seen a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE community so upset that they have to play with other players.

Because many of them and other types of multiplayer games have gotten with the times and don't let others force you to skip the story with no recourse.

Some of them do this by gating progress until everyone is ready.

Some deliver it in cutscenes that you have to unanimously vote to skip

Some MMOs let you use the equivalent of NPC companions to clear it alone for the story.

Etc etc.

And they leave the group part to the stuff that actually benefits from being grouped like getting drops, killing stuff, puzzling and platforming.

The backlash against this is not really about the group content being designed for groups. But in the way ESO's design forces interaction between two opposing goals with a completely lopsided power balance who's main recourse is opting out of grouping altogether for many players and the long process players undertake to be able to do so. Only for that to be taken back too.

jecks33 · July 3

I really don't understand those who insist on 'Group dungeons are designed for groups.' Okay, that's true, but if someone wants to try to complete a group dungeon solo, how does that change anything for you? How does it ruin your experience?

Wouldn't it be better to have a game that makes everyone happy? Group players, duos, solo players, etc.?

peacenote · July 3

DenverRalphy wrote: »

I personally like it.

It will require at least two human players. The lead encounter designer even made a crack that basically said "dungeons aren't intended to be soloed". Which really didn't go over well with a veray vocal number of players in the chat stream.

Personally I'm all in favor of forced group content. ESO has suffered too long from forced solo design. There are a couple/few other instances of it in the game, but not enough IMHO. The "play how you want" battlecry is often abused and misused.

Well, intention/design vs. "not allowed" are two very different things. I think it 100% is OK to design and scale content aimed at groups or aimed at solo (or at least more casual) players. A player saying that they aren't able to figure out a way to beat a trial solo, and therefore a solo version MUST be designed and released, could be perceived as entitled, and is definitely mis-using "play how you want." A person who figures out a way to solo that trial is creative. A designer purposely making it so a player can't even enter a trial solo or attempt to fight in it is designing against the spirit of the game (in my opinion). [And yes, using trials instead of dungeons to make a point.]

Regardless of any existing forced solo content (solo arenas? ToT? Some pieces of stories? Not sure what else, but I'm tired), I'm not a fan of restrictive content choices like this. Not that I've seen the dungeon or the video or anything. But it's one thing to cater 4 player content to.. well... 4 players. It's another to not let anyone even try to solo that content just because. Feels disappointing, and this is coming from someone who does dungeon content with a group probably more than any other kind of content in ESO.

Adaarye · July 3

I removed the quote myself. I am addressing the statement that what players want is irrelevant but unfortunately I couldn't properly dissect the nested post.

What players want may be irrelevant until the studio gets to the bottom line where $$$ are very relevant.

I don't speak for everyone, but I know most people will only deal with so much that they don't like. Then they start speaking with their wallet.

A lot of players don't want to deal with grouping with others for various reasons because this is a game played for fun and some players take matters to a place where the game is no longer fun.

ESO has been touted for one being able to play as they want. If that is no longer the case, then fair enough but lets call it like it is.

Thank heavens I'm 90% housing while playing ESO.

I play other games as well.

Hotdog_23 · July 3

Elvenheart wrote: »

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

I don’t mind the pressure plate per se, but the first time I do any dungeon, I do like to solo it to take my personal time to explore and enjoy the dungeon the first time at my own personal pace. Listen to all the dialog and read all the books and absorb/enjoy the story, look at the decor and design, and fully explore the dungeon. I can easily take 2–3 hours to fully explore and enjoy a dungeon when it first comes out.

Artificially removing this choice is tone-deaf on ZOS part. Guess I will have to ask someone to come in long enough to stand on the plate so I can enjoy it myself, which is dumb design. Please remove it or at least allow me to direct one of my companions to be able to stand on one of the plates.

Stay safe

I thought about this, but I think the person would have to stay grouped for the whole time even if they go somewhere else, because otherwise the dungeon kick out timer would kick in if they left the group right after standing on the pressure plate.

I understand some people’s arguments that a group dungeon should be an experience for a group, but that shouldn’t mean that people couldn’t try to solo it if they want to. If they can or can’t should be determined by the difficulty of the bosses, not because they are artificially blocked by some platform mechanic. Up until now I really thought ZOS was listening and was limiting these types of things out of consideration for the players. Awhile back I know the secret encounters in one dungeon required two or more players, but they are optional so I was disappointed I couldn’t try them but that didn’t stop me from finishing the dungeon. Putting this platform mechanic in place is so disappointing. 🙁

My plan and hope are I can just walk into the Dungeon from the zone and invite someone just long enough for them to stand on the plate. They can then leave, and I should not be kicked out, since I never entered the queue system in the first place.

Stay safe

Resresi_Willowwind · July 3

agree, dungeons should be technically soloable. i tried to solo all of them once, just for the story and exploring. otherwise the story, side bosses etc. are good for nothing.

Thysbe · July 3

The design is working as intended, so yeah, it might not be bad design but the reasoning behind it is flawed.

You won´t bring players who want to solo to group more often by forcing them like this. They either get a pressure-plate dummy from zone chat for a few K or ask a friend to help out with an alt. Most will just ignore the dungeon after 1 or 2 initial runs. Who currently doesn´t want to group up with randoms won´t change their minds because of a pressure plate.

If you want to make more players engage in group content you have to make the experience for them worthwhile. Preventing them from Speed runners and toxic people, making quests playable and ensuring players fulfill their roles. Whats left now is those players who thrive in the current environment of speed running, ignoring quest requests and every single mechanic in the dungeon. Random Normal is unplayable in my opinion, base game vet too and it seems that kind of behaviour is already spilling over to vetDLC.

I have no answer to a how, I just know why I and many others don´t group up any more. The forum is full of threads from people asking to do something against that kind of behavior.

Brute force won´t induce change, only evasion and/or resistance.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · July 3

Why don't they want them soloed?

We are the Vestige arent we? lorewise the Vestige should EASILY beable to solo them.

SeaGtGruff · July 3

Adaarye wrote: »

ESO has been touted for one being able to play as they want. If that is no longer the case, then fair enough but lets call it like it is.

"Play how you like" does not mean, and has never meant, being able to complete every type of in-game content the way you want to. Personally, I'd love to be able to solo every piece of content, ride across Cyrodiil smiting all enemy players in glorious 1vX battles with no danger of death, be able to furnish all of my housing properties for free, get antiquity leads and coveted gear drops on the first try, etc. But I know it's unrealistic and unreasonable to expect that that would ever be the case, and I'm not going to get upset because I can't have everything in the game the way I want it to be. And not being able to have it all be the way I'd like doesn't stop me from playing the game how I like.

MasterSpatula · July 3

I swear I could hear the "oh God, they're not going to like that" in Gina's voice when she asked Finn to confirm that soloists were locked out of the dungeon. Don't think Finn picked up on it at all, though.

RealLoveBVB · July 3

I think we should see how the new dungeon is designed. Someone mentioned the plates at start are connected with a mechanic, so they are sort of a tutorial.
In my opinion the last dungeons (also the Hard Modes) are a bit to easy and less challenging. So it would be nice to have some tricky mechanics. Someone also mentioned portals or mechanics, where the group have to split up. I think this was never the case in dungeons and I would like to see something too.

If the mechanics are awesome and requires group play, then I am fine if dungeons can't be soloed because of an better combat/dungeon experience.

Desiato · July 3

I seriously can't understand how anyone can defend pressure plates to artificially limit solo play because such a simplistic mechanic adds nothing to gameplay.

Just saying "dungeons are for groups" as a justification to limit solo players talented enough to complete the content solo sounds spiteful to me.

ImmortalCX · July 3

Credible_Joe wrote: »

In the first dungeon showcased, right in the entrance, there is a Direfrost Pressure Plate check that prevents solo players from even starting the dungeon.

This is hostile design that disrespects player agency and signals an extremely negative "play the way we want you to" message to players with NPC companions, who want to challenge themselves, or simply want to enjoy the narrative of the dungeon without the pressure of randos in pickup groups or having to organize a guild event.

The community has consistently signaled that these hard group checks are not popular; ESPECIALLY with the introduction of NPC companions who should be able to perform these functions, but can't. I can't imagine where the sudden desire to constrain our gameplay came from; it's completely contrary to the rest of the signaling from the studio telling us we can play how we want.

We found the target audience for subclassing. This guy.

All dressed up and no where to go.

allochthons · July 3

If 4-person dungeons aren't meant to be soloed, then all of them shouldn't be. It is capricious to only add plate/lever to a few that make them impossible to solo. If there is a specific move to this "design" for the future, why only 1 of the new dungeons?

Again, if there are mechanics like portals or shared AoE damage that require more than 1 player, that's great! More interesting mechanics is wonderful.

But a mechanic solely meant to gate a dungeon or trial to a specific number of people is unnecessary, and often actively hurtful. See my Aetherian archive comment:

allochthons wrote: »

I've been in more than one Aetherian Archive run that had to be abandoned because we lost a player to a disconnect, or family emergency, etc. when we could easily finish if we didn't have to deal with the pressure pad mechanic.

Soarora · July 3

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

I don’t mind the pressure plate per se, but the first time I do any dungeon, I do like to solo it to take my personal time to explore and enjoy the dungeon the first time at my own personal pace. Listen to all the dialog and read all the books and absorb/enjoy the story, look at the decor and design, and fully explore the dungeon. I can easily take 2–3 hours to fully explore and enjoy a dungeon when it first comes out.

Artificially removing this choice is tone-deaf on ZOS part. Guess I will have to ask someone to come in long enough to stand on the plate so I can enjoy it myself, which is dumb design. Please remove it or at least allow me to direct one of my companions to be able to stand on one of the plates.

Stay safe

I thought about this, but I think the person would have to stay grouped for the whole time even if they go somewhere else, because otherwise the dungeon kick out timer would kick in if they left the group right after standing on the pressure plate.

I understand some people’s arguments that a group dungeon should be an experience for a group, but that shouldn’t mean that people couldn’t try to solo it if they want to. If they can or can’t should be determined by the difficulty of the bosses, not because they are artificially blocked by some platform mechanic. Up until now I really thought ZOS was listening and was limiting these types of things out of consideration for the players. Awhile back I know the secret encounters in one dungeon required two or more players, but they are optional so I was disappointed I couldn’t try them but that didn’t stop me from finishing the dungeon. Putting this platform mechanic in place is so disappointing. 🙁

My plan and hope are I can just walk into the Dungeon from the zone and invite someone just long enough for them to stand on the plate. They can then leave, and I should not be kicked out, since I never entered the queue system in the first place.

Stay safe

They cannot leave or you will be kicked. They have to hang out in group or log out.

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

I think we should see how the new dungeon is designed. Someone mentioned the plates at start are connected with a mechanic, so they are sort of a tutorial.
In my opinion the last dungeons (also the Hard Modes) are a bit to easy and less challenging. So it would be nice to have some tricky mechanics. Someone also mentioned portals or mechanics, where the group have to split up. I think this was never the case in dungeons and I would like to see something too.

If the mechanics are awesome and requires group play, then I am fine if dungeons can't be soloed because of an better combat/dungeon experience.

YES! If this means group coordination mechanics I’m excited. But we’ll see. I need to see the mechanics before I pass final judgement. Because again, it its literally just to open the door then thats silly. But if it’s because the dungeon has cool mechanics that absolutely require 2 people with no workarounds then sure.

Tenn60 · July 3

I feel they could add an option with companions to be able to assist someone wanting to go more solo. But like others have said I know they design these with 4 person groups in mind, so they are not going to take into account a solo players perspective and I imagine they will tell you in a round about way to pug it as well

Number_51 · July 3

Ability to command a companion to stand in a specific spot when?

"Here? Right here? What about, say... over there? No? Right here? All right then, you're the Vestage! Whatever you say!"

allochthons · July 3

https://youtu.be/ccBQZVpVvAE?t=35

SirLeeMinion · July 3

Credible_Joe wrote: »

In the first dungeon showcased, right in the entrance, there is a Direfrost Pressure Plate check that prevents solo players from even starting the dungeon.

I guess it's too late not to buy the chapter with my main account, but I'll vote against it with my wallet on my alt accounts.