Who do you think Subclassing was meant for?

Rungar · June 14

Jaimeh wrote: »

I thought to myself 'the devs' even before I had the chance to read the options. It was the easiest way to offer a 'new' system without actually working on something new.

bingo! Easy low dev cost content. Perhaps the new game isnt going well and they are fairly constrained it has been like 7 years lol. itll be obsolete before they get it made. i sincerely hope it isnt starfield online lol. That would hurt.

LonePirate · June 15

The Devs (who don't have to worry about balancing classes any more)

Subclassing was for ZOS. It was the easiest way for them to implement a big new feature in the game with a minimal amount of effort. Some simple UI changes, a few database changes and some minor back-end plumbing modifications were all that was needed to activate it. At least they put in some actual effort and creativity into last year's big new feature, Scribing. Given the skeleton crew working on the game nowadays, I guess we need to start lowering our expectations when it comes to content.

kargen27 · June 15

Everybody just like every other aspect/feature of the game. And now we get to decide if we wish to participate or no.

old_scopie1945 · June 15

The Devs (who don't have to worry about balancing classes any more)

Ishtarknows wrote: »

Biased poll.
It assumes that subclassing is only for one group of players which is not the case. It's for anyone who wants to engage with it. There should be an option for "everyone" or allow us to pick more than one. Also it's missing the obligatory "other" option

I suspect that it is more intended to be sarcastic rather than biased (which of course it is, as intended, I suspect). I must admit I had a little chuckle at it, thought there is an element of truth in it.

old_scopie1945 · June 15

The Devs (who don't have to worry about balancing classes any more)

noblecron wrote: »

I voted for Devs. One one of my friends brought up a good point to me. When ZOS made the original 4 classes they were going for tank, mag dps, stam dps healer. Once they started including other classes they did the play how you want style and gave them kits for tanking, healing and dpsing. Unfortunately it meant they had to balance the older classes and due to ZOS having more and more trouble balancing and newer classes being able to outperform older classes (Looks at Arcanist which is top class rn). It's really to help out poorer classes that can't perform like the newer classes. DK healer for instance can heal better now if you want to do DK healing

I think you have nailed it.

Pixiepumpkin · June 15

The Devs (who don't have to worry about balancing classes any more)

LonePirate wrote: »

Subclassing was for ZOS. It was the easiest way for them to implement a big new feature in the game with a minimal amount of effort. Some simple UI changes, a few database changes and some minor back-end plumbing modifications were all that was needed to activate it. At least they put in some actual effort and creativity into last year's big new feature, Scribing. Given the skeleton crew working on the game nowadays, I guess we need to start lowering our expectations when it comes to content.

Skeleton Crew is on point. At least that is what the recent palty update suggests.

Ragnarok0130 · June 15

The Devs (who don't have to worry about balancing classes any more)

Soarora wrote: »

I’m strongly in the belief that it was meant for people who want class change tokens because zos cant figure out how to code class changes.

Just like when they told us Alliance changes weren't possible because they were "hard coded" and then boom they were not only possible but sold to people at exorbitant crown store prices? Multiclassing isn't a class change token by any metric but it does put a bandaid on some of the long term gripes about balancing. I think multiclassing represents the least amount of effort compared to class change tokens that also takes some of the balancing heat off of the combat team because "you can just slot the OP skill lines now".

kevkj · June 15

The Devs (who don't have to worry about balancing classes any more)

Subclassing is meant for the player that buys the deluxe edition, subscribes to 12 months of eso+, spends an hour creating a character, does 1 quest, buys all the skyshards on the crown store, runs around for another hour and then never logs back in until the next expansion is released.

Maggusemm · June 15

subclassing is really great and players love it. Just go to the discords and possibilities are so nice with the new system.

Zodiarkslayer · June 15

It's made for everyone!

Deimus · June 15

The Devs (who don't have to worry about balancing classes any more)

I think "easier to balance" was a part of their mindset with this change judging from the surprisingly small amount of PTS changes, but it really makes balancing much harder. Players that just want OP cheese played the OP cheese before that's why over half the players in PvP played either sorc or nb last patch.

The ones calling for balance wanted more viable/competitive options for under represented classes and playstyles. The way this change was made instead tells those players to just drop whatever skill lines you thought were under performing before and replace them with the ones you thought were OP.

The biggest winners of this change are the casual PvE players. Everything was viable to them before so that's really the only area of the game that opens up more options rather than further narrows them. For high end PvE I guess you guys are further shoehorned into Arc beam now with Grim Focus and for PvP it's Animal Companion, Assassination, and your choice of Storm Calling or Restoring Light.

Cooperharley · June 15

Mid-game PvE and casual players (because endgame achievements should be for everyone)

Not the poll option I was necessarily looking for, but ultimately I think ZOS believes it does 2 things:

1) Gives fans of the mainline, single player elder scrolls games a taste of that playstyle where you can mix and match things to formulate a more unique build (often off-META obviously like Zookeeper or Elementalist).

2) Gives people wanting a class change token something akin to it, but not the same

I definitely don't think they gave this to end game players because typically end game players just play whatever class suits their prog team the best. Some love class fantasy sure, but most love winning and the achievement and hanging with their guild. All this does it give them more tools and make things easier in its current state. Most end game guys and gals I know want more reasons to do end game content, not other skill lines.

People in PvP haven't asked for this, at least from what i've seen. It's mainly been better performance, higher pop caps, more things to do in cyro, for rush of agony to be gone, etc. Not subclassing

And for the devs option idk what that even means.

I genuinely think the devs want to give the players more ways to play the game, but a lot of times, things that they think will give you more options ultimately homogenize the game for a lot of players. Not all - Ill have a meta build 100% and then some fun ones on the side and that's cool, but I think a system this big just needed more testing. Cool concept, but implementation still needs work.

Elsonso · June 15

All of the above

Endgame PvE players
Mid-game PvE and casual players
New Players (even though they can't use it until later)
PvPers
The Devs

However, with The Devs, now they have to balance skill lines with all other skill lines to combat cross-class meta skill lines. That sounds like more work, unless they just decide to let the metas stand.

Zodiarkslayer · June 15

Cooperharley wrote: »

...
I genuinely think the devs want to give the players more ways to play the game, but a lot of times, things that they think will give you more options ultimately homogenize the game for a lot of players ...

That homogenization is the result of players mindlessly following the META and not having enough conviction and self esteem to stand against it.

And that is not ZOS's responsibility.

META is always the least fun and least rewarding way to play any game.

Why any player would follow the META and then complain that they aren't having fun, is beyond me.

cyberjanet · June 15

The Devs (who don't have to worry about balancing classes any more)

Soarora wrote: »

I’m strongly in the belief that it was meant for people who want class change tokens because zos cant figure out how to code class changes.

But you can only take one skill line. If you could take two, it would be a bit like reclassing.

AngryPenguin · June 15

The Devs (who don't have to worry about balancing classes any more)

Everything ZOS has done since and including U35 has convinced me of one thing more than any other.

ZOS is winding down their investments into everything ESO related.

U46 and subclassing is just another in a long list of smaller steps toward putting ESO into autopilot mode . (read "maintenance mode") I don't think the game is dying, but it's not going to get anywhere near the updates or content or QoL improvements promised (especially not for PvP) and it's abundantly clear dev and financial resources that come from ESO are being allocated to other projects or discontinued outright.

In this respect ZOS is massively benefitting from an overall lack of competition in the MMO market. And we as long term ESO players are the losers in this scenario.

I really wish ZOS would sell the rights to ESO to some young, newer, hungrier IP that would take advantage of all the potential ESO still has and make ESO great again....for lack of better, less tainted terminology.

The_Meathead · June 15

The Devs (who don't have to worry about balancing classes any more)

Definitely the Devs.

It's a massive amount of "content" for an absolute minimal amount of effort, particularly because their efforts to balance the resulting glop unleashed on us were laughable for PvE and non-existent for PvP. (Seriously, Assassination's passives with *Double* Spec Bow?!) Being fully honest, I'm tinkering and making the best of it because it's unavoidable, but it's breaking the game for anyone who cares about gameplay where numbers matter.

I'm a pretty diehard PvPer, but I'm also a Rper and a Guildie to some very close friends of many years who stay together in ESO or I'd be gone. If I was here purely for PvE or PvP gameplay, there's absolutely no way I'd stay on after this Update or likely have stuck around after U35 before it.

It's a shame. I love the ES setting so much (even if the writing has gotten too ''family friendly'' and simple over the past few XPacs), and I absolutely love the combat style and concept of Cyrodiil, but the bad Dev decisions keep coming. Were it not for the great RP platform it presents that keeps my small pack of RP friendos present, I'd be gone.

Cooperharley · June 15

Mid-game PvE and casual players (because endgame achievements should be for everyone)

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Cooperharley wrote: »

...
I genuinely think the devs want to give the players more ways to play the game, but a lot of times, things that they think will give you more options ultimately homogenize the game for a lot of players ...

That homogenization is the result of players mindlessly following the META and not having enough conviction and self esteem to stand against it.

And that is not ZOS's responsibility.

META is always the least fun and least rewarding way to play any game.

Why any player would follow the META and then complain that they aren't having fun, is beyond me.

Think about it like this:

People that follow the META generally just want to do as much damage as possible (or do the best they can tanking or healing). Earlier in ESO's life cycle, you had meta setups for stamina sorcerer, magicka sorcerer, stamina DK, magicka DK, etc. There wasn't this dual wield/2H or dual wield/destro staff combo on EVERY single META. After hybridization, it moved towards that. Then you bring in subclassing, and now everyone that does damage generally, if you want to do the best you can (different for everyone obviously based on disabilities, time spent in the game, desires, etc), you're going to *generally* run herald of the tome/assassination/aedric spear (or dawns wrath).

That's just an MMO mindset. Bigger number = more dopamine for lots of people and that's all it is.

IF you like being unique and not following the META, that's fantastic, but saying "it's your own fault for following the META" is not really fair IMO. It can be said the same for not. When people complain about werewolf, you could say "it's your own fault for playing werewolf." Doesn't make sense ya know? There's better ways to implement things and balance things and we definitely did NOT achieve that and this is coming from someone that has a meta setup, but loves the off-meta stuff more. I just have a meta setup for super hard content.

Ultimately, the implementation of a new combat system falls on ZOS, so if a new system feels bad, that's not on the player for following the META IMO.

Northwold · June 15

I really think it may be time to retire the poll option from the forums since people seem incapable of making polls with neutral, non-loaded questions and responses. It's become an exercise in generating the results people want to see / leading people, rather than seeing what people think with an open mind. The results end up worthless.

tomofhyrule · June 15

Cooperharley wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Cooperharley wrote: »

...
I genuinely think the devs want to give the players more ways to play the game, but a lot of times, things that they think will give you more options ultimately homogenize the game for a lot of players ...

That homogenization is the result of players mindlessly following the META and not having enough conviction and self esteem to stand against it.

And that is not ZOS's responsibility.

META is always the least fun and least rewarding way to play any game.

Why any player would follow the META and then complain that they aren't having fun, is beyond me.

Think about it like this:

People that follow the META generally just want to do as much damage as possible (or do the best they can tanking or healing). Earlier in ESO's life cycle, you had meta setups for stamina sorcerer, magicka sorcerer, stamina DK, magicka DK, etc. There wasn't this dual wield/2H or dual wield/destro staff combo on EVERY single META. After hybridization, it moved towards that. Then you bring in subclassing, and now everyone that does damage generally, if you want to do the best you can (different for everyone obviously based on disabilities, time spent in the game, desires, etc), you're going to *generally* run herald of the tome/assassination/aedric spear (or dawns wrath).

That's just an MMO mindset. Bigger number = more dopamine for lots of people and that's all it is.

IF you like being unique and not following the META, that's fantastic, but saying "it's your own fault for following the META" is not really fair IMO. It can be said the same for not. When people complain about werewolf, you could say "it's your own fault for playing werewolf." Doesn't make sense ya know? There's better ways to implement things and balance things and we definitely did NOT achieve that and this is coming from someone that has a meta setup, but loves the off-meta stuff more. I just have a meta setup for super hard content.

Ultimately, the implementation of a new combat system falls on ZOS, so if a new system feels bad, that's not on the player for following the META IMO.

The other thing I'll add is that there totally exist higher-end raiders who dislike the "Arcanist beam go brrr" playstyle and would prefer to play something else. In previous patches (caveat: within reason), really good high end players could bring slightly off-meta setups and still outparse all of the Arcanists and do great.

But that did kind of require a setup where the DPS of the off-meta could be like (making up numbers here) 80k for low skill players to 120k for high skill players versus a meta build giving 110k. In that case, the really good player who can squeeze 120k out of their off-meta setup does better than the meta, but most players who play that same off-meta build can't get close to the meta numbers.

Now, with the balance that has been unleashed, this pretty much means that your meta is doing like 150k and your off-meta is in the 70-130k range. So even the high skill player who wants to bring the off-meta setup is not going to be able to beat the meta... forcing them into the meta.

Sure, Arcanists dominated before for two reasons: it gave great cleave at range, and it was super easy to use. You could totally parse higher with other classes, but they were so much more technical and needed to be in the hands of a really really good player to beat the Arc numbers. But now, there's no build that can even come close to Herald/Assassination, so even the best player in the world won't be able to put up comparable numbers without that. And that's the balance issue.

It's totally up to ZOS to make sure that more than one setup is able to get into those higher echelons. This is all down to balance - or the lack thereof.

EvilGoatKing · June 16

The Devs (who don't have to worry about balancing classes any more)

The pvp/bg "update" failure caused this kneejerk reaction because that was the best they could do. Now we get it all and figure it out ourselves.

Whats the point of even having classes?

I have never seen a team so consistently produce mediocre experiences.

moderatelyfatman · June 16

The Devs (who don't have to worry about balancing classes any more)

old_scopie1945 wrote: »

Ishtarknows wrote: »

Biased poll.
It assumes that subclassing is only for one group of players which is not the case. It's for anyone who wants to engage with it. There should be an option for "everyone" or allow us to pick more than one. Also it's missing the obligatory "other" option

I suspect that it is more intended to be sarcastic rather than biased (which of course it is, as intended, I suspect). I must admit I had a little chuckle at it, thought there is an element of truth in it.

Yep! I don't think the people in charge have the will or ability to fix the game I love any more. They may of had it once many years ago, but not now and I've seen a sad procession of friends move on because of it. So I'm going to sit on the deck of the Titanic with a bottle of whisky in hand and play the violin while going down with the ship!

@Cooperharley @tomofhyrule
I agree with your arguments.
I've seen quite a bit of gaslighting along the lines of 'there will always be a meta so stop complaining'. If there were 5 different class builds that could perform within 5-10% of the arcanist meta in actual content, there would be far far fewer complaints from players. People are not complaining that there is a meta but because there is daylight from several solar systems between the arcanist and every other class, and skill is not enough to make up that difference.
People just want to be able to do endgame activities on their Wardens, Nightblades, DK, Sorcs. Necros and Templars. I really don't know why ZOS can't see that.

josefcifkaeb17_ESO · June 16

Mid-game PvE and casual players (because endgame achievements should be for everyone)

It's for the casuals who keep the game alive. And while it can be a bad change from the traditional mmorpg point of view, it's imo a good change from the elder scroll theme point of view. I'm of the opinion that introducing classes in ESO was a mistake, I've had this opinion since beta. Freedom of choice was always a part of all TES games, except for ESO.
This returns freedom of choice to the game, was it done is a good way? I honestly can't tell.

However, looking at the state of the game, looking at the pathetic new Tales of Tamriel "trailer", I'm not stupid enough to think subclassing was introduced to return to the original TES game spirit. It looks like they are remaking ESO into a snowflake save space. Another game intended for everyone that will most likely end up a game for nobody at all.

MISTFORMBZZZ · June 16

Deffo for the devs, since they seemed to pull out massive ressources of the game and dont seem to bother anymore

SolarRune · June 16

I don't think it's for any of the groups you have put for selection, I think it's for people that want to build characters like they did in skyrim without the limits of classes, solo questers appear to represent the majority of people in the game these days.

MISTFORMBZZZ · June 16

SolarRune wrote: »

solo questers appear to represent the majority of people in the game these days.

Hot take, got any proof to back up this statement ? Since i heavily disagree, i got to ask

moderatelyfatman · June 16

The Devs (who don't have to worry about balancing classes any more)

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

SolarRune wrote: »

solo questers appear to represent the majority of people in the game these days.

Hot take, got any proof to back up this statement ? Since i heavily disagree, i got to ask

They tried to poll the solo questers but it happened in a tavern group event, so there is no hard data.

LukosCreyden · June 16

Everyone. Subclassing was made with everyone in mind. Doesn't mean it went well, but that is the likely answer.

RealLoveBVB · June 16

Mid-game PvE and casual players (because endgame achievements should be for everyone)

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

SolarRune wrote: »

solo questers appear to represent the majority of people in the game these days.

Hot take, got any proof to back up this statement ? Since i heavily disagree, i got to ask

Where would you expect the majority?

PvP is almost empty, BGs are always the same 3 players, raid groups are dying and players have a hard time finding raids.

Those who are playing in groups or doing group content, like PVP, dungeons and raids are the minority. And I can tell it as someone, who only does said activities.

SolarRune · June 16

There has been polls on here before showing PVP and trials accounted for about 30%, I am someone that plays mainly trials it saddened me greatly to see that that was such a small part of the community as I always thought it would be most people. But it made me appreciate that there are elements of the game that I don't really engage with that should have an equal say in how the game moves forward.

As that happened on here, where there are probably a higher amount of PVP and trial players as a proportion of the forum user base is interesting.

I suppose that's no hard proof, but there is no hard proof either that people who focus on running in trials and/or pvp represent the majority of players either. I mean as players we can't even see the true numbers of players online, so it's all a bit of a guess and gut feel for anyone apart from ZoS. (Yes we can see steam, but we can't see epic or launcher connects)