How is everyone liking subclassing

seventy_kg · June 5

I will be 100% honest here and start by saying I hate the idea of it. Class identity and uniqueness is very important to me in mmo's and this seems to me like a really big immersion killer and a nightmare for balancing and meta.

But that said, I have not logged in in 2 months and haven't tried out this new update, so I want to ask how everyone feels about it before I decide if I want to jump back into eso

Specifically, does subclassing make classes more fun, or has it completely killed class identity? and what is the impact on endgame trial groups and cyrodiil meta?

Aylish · June 6

I don‘t like it.
I dislike the idea of no classes anymore.

I just leveled the skill lines so I can make my main char gain the achievements before I log into my alts.

AlterBlika · June 6

Half of your original class kit is useless to you, just wasted skills and passives. With subclassing you can finally make use of your entire class kit. That's a good thing.
But they didn't actually balance the whole thing. Subclassing is a huge powercreep, you can basically get more free sustain, damage and defense from it while sacrifcing nothing.

icapital · June 6

pretty mid experience.

Soarora · June 6

It’s not great but I’ve decided any fight is wasted energy. Not only do I not like what it’s done to builds, ZOS has decided all the money they spent into mechanics should go out the window cause the power creep’s so high mechanics don’t exist anymore. I can barely even feel bad about it, PTS players showed how high the damage was going to be.

ArchMikem · June 6

I know it's a radical idea, but, if people hate subclassing, then they could just, not, do it? Its not being forced on us.

Soarora · June 6

ArchMikem wrote: »

I know it's a radical idea, but, if people hate subclassing, then they could just, not, do it? Its not being forced on us.

It’s hard enough to find a group for some things. It’s even harder to find a group that’ll let you do what you want. It’s harder still to find a good group that’ll let you do what you want.

Desiato · June 6

I'm trying to embrace it after being a critic of its introduction. There's no reason to beat dead horses, but it's fair to discuss practical issues when we encounter them.

I think ZOS did a decent enough job of nerfing the previous beam meta and that averted some of the predicted disasters.

But the granularity in trial comps is... something. Except for a more casual run in which I tanked as a pure necro tonight, I've had to run a different combination of skill lines in each trial I've dps'd in.

I expect after a while a general meta that most open trial community pugs and casual hm cores use will emerge, but until that time it's going to be crazy as every raid lead tinkers with group comps to a degree previously unseen.

The thing with subclassing in trials, is it generally can't be done randomly to good effect. I knew the group I played in tonight wouldn't be using subclassed supports, so I didn't subclass my tank. I wanted to, but it would have created gaps and stepped on toes. The entire group needs to adapt to subclassing holistically to avoid doing that.

We take for granted the standard metas most follow because they cover all of the important buffs and debuffs and missing them can hurt when things don't unfold how we expect.

There may also be details many players don't consider. For example, like Hyperioxes pointed out, if all arc dps are subclassed and no one is using the Soldier of Apocrypha skill line, they are probably missing Minor Evasion which grants 10% AE damage reduction. Even though very few players were aware they were even getting that buff, it could be impactful in some situations.

Now if I could go back in time and stop this from happening after learning the universe was just a simulation for only me so it wouldn't affect other people, then I would.

But with that said, I'm having fun learning ESO again and really enjoying trying to understand things to the point of obsession. Even if things get as bad as I thought they would, I think that won't be as bad as I thought it would.

My advice to fellow haters is to embrace it ASAP to enjoy this brief period of discovery before the metas are established. It's a lot more fun to experiment in the frontier of a new paradigm. To me, it feels sort of like playing eso in April 2014 or March 2015 (1.6) at the moment which may be fleeting. Don't miss out!

RealLoveBVB · June 6

This poll gives a pretty clear overview: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/678627/now-that-u46-is-live-how-are-we-feeling/p1

Fiennes · June 6

Really enjoying it. It's levelling pretty quickly and I'm enjoying unlocking the abilities I wouldn't otherwise have.

Pixiepumpkin · June 6

I was suspicious about subclassing the day it was announced and how it would work in game. The more I considered it and what it would do to classes, the less I liked the idea and what it would do to the game in a negative way.

Fast forward to U46 launch and actually getting to play with subclassing. I have made some builds that exceed my original builds throughput but the idea of thousands of combinations is a farce because there are only really a few skill line usees that benefit builds in any meaningful way.

Some suggest that some of your class skill lines are useless so its better to swap that line out. Except what I have found is that they are not useless, that its a trade off. Even if it's just one passive you make use of from an "unused" skill line, it is still a trade off.

I should preface. I can only play one bar builds, usually oakensoul so my builds and what can be achieved is much less than 2 bar builds.

The issue I am having, most likely due to my limited bar space from making 1 bar builds, is that the sacrifice I make to get that greater DPS is at the cost of using fun abilities.

For example. I made an magicka arcanist witih the assassination skill line. I only need the assassination skill line for is passives, but that requires slotting something. There are only really 2 choices on a ranged build that make any sense, but neither of them are really necessary in my rotation. So the ult makes the most sense, except that I have to now forego using the "Hermeus Mora" ult (that is what I call it, I forget its actual name), and I LOVE using that ult.

So...for me its either build for cool and fun abilities (something I have always felt ESO lacks in the first place), or build for straight DPS (what your dungeon peers expect)....and its making me feel...I dunna, empty inside.

And for me, that is what it comes down to. Subclassing destroys my characters identity, keeps me from using the class abilties I know and love and frankly looks goofy when I see people in the world with a green arcanist shield, using a templar beam and a nightblade dash (I forget the skills name). Subclassing destroys immersion on multiple fronts.

If pure classes could maintain their DPS output and be competitve, then fine, I could play the way I want and not be shunned/harassed by dungeon peers and others could subclass till the cows come home and all would be good.
But that is not how it plays out.

In a nutshell, subclassing is increasingly driving me away from the game. Told wife yesterday that ESO makes me feel empty inside now and has little draw. So I played No Man's Sky and Space Engineers some.

If I consider why I feel this way, I think its because sublcassing essentially allows one to make a god mode build, making all my other builds/characters seem pointless. Except I am the type of player who buys and decorates a house for each character. I make them "town" outfits and "combat" outfits. Each with their own mount and non combat pet. I decorate their homes like they live in Tamriel and try to mimic how the devs decorate to make my homes feel like part of the game and I do this on close to 20 characters. But now, they all seem pointless because they bring nothing special to the table anymore.

Sorry for the long write up, but I can go on for days about the issues of subclassing. I don't want to sound negative or be negative, but the tradeoffs for me regarding subclassing and the loss of my characters class identity is simply not worth it.

In my professional opinion, I say this literally as a trained designer with over 30 years of experience, I feel that subclassing was a terrible idea. It feels like it was done to fit the need of content, not done to make the game better. It seems to have polarised the community to a large degree and functionally creates more balance issues than it solves.

I feel the devs are out of touch with why many people play ESO in the first place. This is not to slander them nor am I denigrating them in anyway shape or form, but I think they are making the game to fit a monetary model, not making a game for fun, not anymore.

Xarc · June 6

I think if you do not like it, you should not use it, quite simple.

I dont know why making 545645645645646513259874 threads for that on forum

Pixiepumpkin · June 6

Except its not that simple Xarc. Not using it, and gimping your character is the fast track to getting /kicked from vet and trial runs.

Tranquilizer · June 6

I don't like it. Not so much the subclassing itself, I don't care about it anymore, but in fact, I don't like the grind associated with it. Leveling 21 skill lines and 126 skills and their morphs again with the doubled amount of xp is plain ridiculous.

I'll wait until the next double xp event to level all this *** with my stored master writs.Until then I'll just do some overland questing or play other games.

seventy_kg · June 6

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

I was suspicious about subclassing the day it was announced and how it would work in game. The more I considered it and what it would do to classes, the less I liked the idea and what it would do to the game in a negative way.

Fast forward to U46 launch and actually getting to play with subclassing. I have made some builds that exceed my original builds throughput but the idea of thousands of combinations is a farce because there are only really a few skill line usees that benefit builds in any meaningful way.

Some suggest that some of your class skill lines are useless so its better to swap that line out. Except what I have found is that they are not useless, that its a trade off. Even if it's just one passive you make use of from an "unused" skill line, it is still a trade off.

I should preface. I can only play one bar builds, usually oakensoul so my builds and what can be achieved is much less than 2 bar builds.

The issue I am having, most likely due to my limited bar space from making 1 bar builds, is that the sacrifice I make to get that greater DPS is at the cost of using fun abilities.

For example. I made an magicka arcanist witih the assassination skill line. I only need the assassination skill line for is passives, but that requires slotting something. There are only really 2 choices on a ranged build that make any sense, but neither of them are really necessary in my rotation. So the ult makes the most sense, except that I have to now forego using the "Hermeus Mora" ult (that is what I call it, I forget its actual name), and I LOVE using that ult.

So...for me its either build for cool and fun abilities (something I have always felt ESO lacks in the first place), or build for straight DPS (what your dungeon peers expect)....and its making me feel...I dunna, empty inside.

And for me, that is what it comes down to. Subclassing destroys my characters identity, keeps me from using the class abilties I know and love and frankly looks goofy when I see people in the world with a green arcanist shield, using a templar beam and a nightblade dash (I forget the skills name). Subclassing destroys immersion on multiple fronts.

If pure classes could maintain their DPS output and be competitve, then fine, I could play the way I want and not be shunned/harassed by dungeon peers and others could subclass till the cows come home and all would be good.
But that is not how it plays out.

In a nutshell, subclassing is increasingly driving me away from the game. Told wife yesterday that ESO makes me feel empty inside now and has little draw. So I played No Man's Sky and Space Engineers some.

If I consider why I feel this way, I think its because sublcassing essentially allows one to make a god mode build, making all my other builds/characters seem pointless. Except I am the type of player who buys and decorates a house for each character. I make them "town" outfits and "combat" outfits. Each with their own mount and non combat pet. I decorate their homes like they live in Tamriel and try to mimic how the devs decorate to make my homes feel like part of the game and I do this on close to 20 characters. But now, they all seem pointless because they bring nothing special to the table anymore.

Sorry for the long write up, but I can go on for days about the issues of subclassing. I don't want to sound negative or be negative, but the tradeoffs for me regarding subclassing and the loss of my characters class identity is simply not worth it.

In my professional opinion, I say this literally as a trained designer with over 30 years of experience, I feel that subclassing was a terrible idea. It feels like it was done to fit the need of content, not done to make the game better. It seems to have polarised the community to a large degree and functionally creates more balance issues than it solves.

I feel the devs are out of touch with why many people play ESO in the first place. This is not to slander them nor am I denigrating them in anyway shape or form, but I think they are making the game to fit a monetary model, not making a game for fun, not anymore.

this is heartbreaking to read...

MISTFORMBZZZ · June 6

I did

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

I was suspicious about subclassing the day it was announced and how it would work in game. The more I considered it and what it would do to classes, the less I liked the idea and what it would do to the game in a negative way.

Fast forward to U46 launch and actually getting to play with subclassing. I have made some builds that exceed my original builds throughput but the idea of thousands of combinations is a farce because there are only really a few skill line usees that benefit builds in any meaningful way.

Some suggest that some of your class skill lines are useless so its better to swap that line out. Except what I have found is that they are not useless, that its a trade off. Even if it's just one passive you make use of from an "unused" skill line, it is still a trade off.

I should preface. I can only play one bar builds, usually oakensoul so my builds and what can be achieved is much less than 2 bar builds.

The issue I am having, most likely due to my limited bar space from making 1 bar builds, is that the sacrifice I make to get that greater DPS is at the cost of using fun abilities.

For example. I made an magicka arcanist witih the assassination skill line. I only need the assassination skill line for is passives, but that requires slotting something. There are only really 2 choices on a ranged build that make any sense, but neither of them are really necessary in my rotation. So the ult makes the most sense, except that I have to now forego using the "Hermeus Mora" ult (that is what I call it, I forget its actual name), and I LOVE using that ult.

So...for me its either build for cool and fun abilities (something I have always felt ESO lacks in the first place), or build for straight DPS (what your dungeon peers expect)....and its making me feel...I dunna, empty inside.

And for me, that is what it comes down to. Subclassing destroys my characters identity, keeps me from using the class abilties I know and love and frankly looks goofy when I see people in the world with a green arcanist shield, using a templar beam and a nightblade dash (I forget the skills name). Subclassing destroys immersion on multiple fronts.

If pure classes could maintain their DPS output and be competitve, then fine, I could play the way I want and not be shunned/harassed by dungeon peers and others could subclass till the cows come home and all would be good.
But that is not how it plays out.

In a nutshell, subclassing is increasingly driving me away from the game. Told wife yesterday that ESO makes me feel empty inside now and has little draw. So I played No Man's Sky and Space Engineers some.

If I consider why I feel this way, I think its because sublcassing essentially allows one to make a god mode build, making all my other builds/characters seem pointless. Except I am the type of player who buys and decorates a house for each character. I make them "town" outfits and "combat" outfits. Each with their own mount and non combat pet. I decorate their homes like they live in Tamriel and try to mimic how the devs decorate to make my homes feel like part of the game and I do this on close to 20 characters. But now, they all seem pointless because they bring nothing special to the table anymore.

Sorry for the long write up, but I can go on for days about the issues of subclassing. I don't want to sound negative or be negative, but the tradeoffs for me regarding subclassing and the loss of my characters class identity is simply not worth it.

In my professional opinion, I say this literally as a trained designer with over 30 years of experience, I feel that subclassing was a terrible idea. It feels like it was done to fit the need of content, not done to make the game better. It seems to have polarised the community to a large degree and functionally creates more balance issues than it solves.

I feel the devs are out of touch with why many people play ESO in the first place. This is not to slander them nor am I denigrating them in anyway shape or form, but I think they are making the game to fit a monetary model, not making a game for fun, not anymore.

Youre not alone with this opinion, i was testing it on pts a lot and im dreading it to go live on PS. It will make a lot of people quit

Rungar · June 6

i love it though i haven't decided on a final build yet for my tank and healer. I'm just playing around levelling up the lines at the moment. I hope they make more major changes like this.

Thrasher91604 · June 6

I love the idea. Hate the leveling and double skill point cost.

emilyhyoyeon · June 6

The only other MMO I've ever played is runescape so classes have never meant anything to me.

I like it, and I think it fits a TES game, but it definitely should've been in the game since the beginning. I think it would've felt natural to everyone back then coming from other TES games.

Woozywyvern · June 6

I love it. Finally can make the character I want to play instead of being shoe horned into skill lines that I do not like on certain classes.

beth6230_ESO · June 6

I haven't tried it yet, so not answering the question directly. I like the gameplay as it is, and as a solo player, I like that I do have to occasionally pay attention to mechanics etc. I don't see it as fun to one-shot absolutely everything. I recently returned after about 6yrs off so I'm not super powered anyway.

Taggund · June 6

Tried it the first night, started leveling a subclass line and realized I hate the grind (got it up to 36 or so). I already did this grind getting all the classes to 50, and for some classes multiple times to 50. I'm also unlikely to use it on an Alt as getting the additional skill points is another grind.

I doubt I will ever subclass and I'm mostly just playing my healer in Cyro a couple times a week now anyway. I've yet to buy the season/chapter, as the cost does not seem worth it right now.

Nemesis7884 · June 6

the grind to level up every single skill line again is unrewarding unfun and unappreciated

Any game update ask one simple question: Will this make the game more fun. If the answer is no scrapp it.

preevious · June 6

It's really nice

The grind is somewhat bothersome, but I juste slotted every skills from my subclass on my bar and heavy-attacked through dolmens in Auridon, and It went to 50 pretty quick, even without XP scrolls nor ambrosia. (I did have the new champion passive, though).

Made me rethink my rotation, and while my survavibility lowered, my damage output increased, so I don't complain.

Subclassing's quite all right.

JJBoomer · June 6

Me and my friends who play and my guilds are having so much fun with it. I'm actually having fun playing alts now.

Thorncrypt · June 6

Thrasher91604 wrote: »

I love the idea. Hate the leveling and double skill point cost.

yep, it feels like a chore to level them up and get all the extra skill points on alts.

Tinkerhorn · June 6

I think the huge grind is big a mistep from ZoS. The update has quite a diverse reaction and if people are like me and on the more negative view end on the update then the prospect of so much grinding just to give it a go is extremely unmotivating.

reazea · June 6

subclassing destroys class identity and makes everything the same. Every toon, regardless of class, can now be any other class too. PvP will never be the same again in ESO now. (in mostly bad ways) The good players will now be invincible and the average to beginner players will now be wrecked in less than a second with almost no in between. And if ZOS implements vengeance mode, that will be even worse.

After seeing the newest content I'm afraid that those claiming ESO is now in maintenance mode now have a lot more evidence supporting their claims.

Almost nothing ZOS has done since and including U35 has made any sense to me.

sarahthes · June 6

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

I was suspicious about subclassing the day it was announced and how it would work in game. The more I considered it and what it would do to classes, the less I liked the idea and what it would do to the game in a negative way.

Fast forward to U46 launch and actually getting to play with subclassing. I have made some builds that exceed my original builds throughput but the idea of thousands of combinations is a farce because there are only really a few skill line usees that benefit builds in any meaningful way.

Some suggest that some of your class skill lines are useless so its better to swap that line out. Except what I have found is that they are not useless, that its a trade off. Even if it's just one passive you make use of from an "unused" skill line, it is still a trade off.

I should preface. I can only play one bar builds, usually oakensoul so my builds and what can be achieved is much less than 2 bar builds.

The issue I am having, most likely due to my limited bar space from making 1 bar builds, is that the sacrifice I make to get that greater DPS is at the cost of using fun abilities.

For example. I made an magicka arcanist witih the assassination skill line. I only need the assassination skill line for is passives, but that requires slotting something. There are only really 2 choices on a ranged build that make any sense, but neither of them are really necessary in my rotation. So the ult makes the most sense, except that I have to now forego using the "Hermeus Mora" ult (that is what I call it, I forget its actual name), and I LOVE using that ult.

So...for me its either build for cool and fun abilities (something I have always felt ESO lacks in the first place), or build for straight DPS (what your dungeon peers expect)....and its making me feel...I dunna, empty inside.

And for me, that is what it comes down to. Subclassing destroys my characters identity, keeps me from using the class abilties I know and love and frankly looks goofy when I see people in the world with a green arcanist shield, using a templar beam and a nightblade dash (I forget the skills name). Subclassing destroys immersion on multiple fronts.

If pure classes could maintain their DPS output and be competitve, then fine, I could play the way I want and not be shunned/harassed by dungeon peers and others could subclass till the cows come home and all would be good.
But that is not how it plays out.

In a nutshell, subclassing is increasingly driving me away from the game. Told wife yesterday that ESO makes me feel empty inside now and has little draw. So I played No Man's Sky and Space Engineers some.

If I consider why I feel this way, I think its because sublcassing essentially allows one to make a god mode build, making all my other builds/characters seem pointless. Except I am the type of player who buys and decorates a house for each character. I make them "town" outfits and "combat" outfits. Each with their own mount and non combat pet. I decorate their homes like they live in Tamriel and try to mimic how the devs decorate to make my homes feel like part of the game and I do this on close to 20 characters. But now, they all seem pointless because they bring nothing special to the table anymore.

Sorry for the long write up, but I can go on for days about the issues of subclassing. I don't want to sound negative or be negative, but the tradeoffs for me regarding subclassing and the loss of my characters class identity is simply not worth it.

In my professional opinion, I say this literally as a trained designer with over 30 years of experience, I feel that subclassing was a terrible idea. It feels like it was done to fit the need of content, not done to make the game better. It seems to have polarised the community to a large degree and functionally creates more balance issues than it solves.

I feel the devs are out of touch with why many people play ESO in the first place. This is not to slander them nor am I denigrating them in anyway shape or form, but I think they are making the game to fit a monetary model, not making a game for fun, not anymore.

The new mythic would solve this for you. There are some really nice 1 bar builds that use the new mythic instead of oakensoul, meaning you can shove all those bar buffer skills you don't think about on to your back bar and just not use them.

peacenote · June 6

OP, I think this is very much a YMMV situation. You probably need to experience it for yourself. One thing I would say is, when you say that you care about class identity, do you care about the class identity of the characters you are playing, or the characters around you?

While I'm still exploring sub-classing and have mixed feelings about it, myself, I will say that I think the concerns about one's own character having class identity are slightly overblown, although it probably depends on how MUCH you care. I tried the popular "double beam" arc build, where I had a line of Arcanist skills, a line of Templar skills, and a line of NB skills, and I still felt very much like an Arcanist. In fact, one of my favorite things about this is that some of the skills you now have access to with subclassing have a better feel, timing wise, and slot more intuitively into a rotation than what I was using before. Because we have limited slots, it's certainly possible to create a build that uses none of the class skills, but I would say... just don't do that. Don't go down that road. It can still be fun. People keep saying that no one has to subclass, but even within exploring the functionality, you can only choose paths that feel right to you and keep the class feel. It's not that different than putting on a Fighter's Guild ability, or becoming a Vampire. Is your Necro Vampire still a Necro? If yes, this can be just like that.

However, if it bothers you to see an Arcanist with a Templar Beam, or a Necro Tank with a Warden shield, either as opponents in PvP or teammates working side by side, and it will drive you completely bonkers to see that everywhere... then there is no way you'll enjoy this update. Because you can control your own characters but tons of people will push this system to the limit or not use any class skills, and anyone still playing will have to make their peace with that.

Desiato wrote: »

The thing with subclassing in trials, is it generally can't be done randomly to good effect. I knew the group I played in tonight wouldn't be using subclassed supports, so I didn't subclass my tank. I wanted to, but it would have created gaps and stepped on toes. The entire group needs to adapt to subclassing holistically to avoid doing that.

We take for granted the standard metas most follow because they cover all of the important buffs and debuffs and missing them can hurt when things don't unfold how we expect.

There may also be details many players don't consider. For example, like Hyperioxes pointed out, if all arc dps are subclassed and no one is using the Soldier of Apocrypha skill line, they are probably missing Minor Evasion which grants 10% AE damage reduction. Even though very few players were aware they were even getting that buff, it could be impactful in some situations.

In my limited experience so far, I have also found this to be very true. I'm sure there are groups out there that have already figured out how to do group composition to steamroll content, but it's going to take a lot of coordination. When you consider things like "can we still run with a fill?," there are just so many common assumptions out there that may not be true as to what that fill will be bringing, at least until it becomes standard for trial players to unlock all lines and be willing and able to swap. Right now, you assume if someone is a certain class, that they have access to all of those skills and passives, and also the common ones in Fighter's, Undaunted, etc. But far less players for a while are going to have ALL the lines and leveled ALL of the skills for every situation.

cyclonus11 · June 6

I won't know for a while since I have to level the things first