ESO Developer Deep Dive - Core Combat Values

Jaraal · November 2023

Woodenplank wrote: »

Hybridization has been so big for ZOS that they'll never roll it back, I don't think. But I sure hope they take many initiatives in the future to diversify builds and playstyles. Between different Classes but markedly also within Classes themselves.

I think they tried that with the new class sets. But the sets themselves are so weak and so niche... I don't know of anyone who actually uses them, personally. And the best of the lot belongs to the (arguably) most overperforming class, so they certainly weren't designed to balance the classes.

autocookies · November 2023

deleted

yadibroz · December 2023

I hope they fix warden

MindOfTheSwarm · December 2023

When you say “Class selection does not constrain or define role.” Does this mean as as tank, DPS and healer?

If so this isn’t enough, classes absolutely are constrained because there simply aren’t enough alternative skill options that exist outside of classes. Split up the destro staves and add some new world skill lines. We have enough classes.

Galeriano · December 2023

I feel like main post didn't aged well.

Duke_Falcon · February 2024

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Hey, I was browsing the forums and read your post. I really enjoyed it, and like the direction the game is going. I decided to toss in a comment to help with that direction in regards to one skill in the game. I copied and pasted down below part of the initial post you made.

"Active Combat

We believe combat is more engaging when you are on the move and continuously taking action. Battles should be exhilarating, with threats and opportunities coming fast and you feeling empowered to respond in kind. In any given moment you should have options for reacting to your opponents and shouldn't be held back by long waits between actions. This requires controls to be responsive and consistent so you feel connected to your character and in control of the outcomes of your battles.

Block, Roll Dodge, and Bash/Interrupt are not constrained by the global cooldown
No ability cooldowns and a short global cooldown
Most abilities are instant, with cast times being the exception
Weapon swapping"

Scorer's Dark Deal/Conversion skill cancels its self out when ever you Block, Roll Dodge, Bash, Sprint, or Weapon Swap. I often find myself pausing combat entirely just to hit the skill, which seems to be against the kind of fast paced action you want to build into the game.

I suspect the cast time was added to it to prevent block tanks from abusing the skill because it has an incredible amount of resource return, which Sorc desperately needs because its skill costs are insanely high. The massive resource return is needed just to use the class skills.

To help achieve the goals of fast paced combat perhaps the one time instant burst sustain could be distributed over 20 or 30 seconds without a cast time being placed on the skill, so that Sorc could then use the base game actions of Block, Dodge Roll, Sprint, and Weapon Swapping to help achieve the goals of continuous action while using the skill.

moderatelyfatman · February 2024

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Scorer's Dark Deal/Conversion skill cancels its self out when ever you Block, Roll Dodge, Bash, Sprint, or Weapon Swap. I often find myself pausing combat entirely just to hit the skill, which seems to be against the kind of fast paced action you want to build into the game.

I suspect the cast time was added to it to prevent block tanks from abusing the skill because it has an incredible amount of resource return, which Sorc desperately needs because its skill costs are insanely high. The massive resource return is needed just to use the class skills.

To help achieve the goals of fast paced combat perhaps the one time instant burst sustain could be distributed over 20 or 30 seconds without a cast time being placed on the skill, so that Sorc could then use the base game actions of Block, Dodge Roll, Sprint, and Weapon Swapping to help achieve the goals of continuous action while using the skill.

I was told that Dark Deal originally didn't have a channel but it was brought in because people were spamming it in PvP and becoming unkillable.
A good solution would be similar to Streak where the cost increases by 33% when cast within 4s of the previous casting. This would make the skill viable for Sorc Tanking in PvE while preventing abuse in PvP.
If they also allowed the Minor Sorcery/Brutality to be an AOE that affects the party, DK will now have a serious contender in PvE tanking.

Duke_Falcon · March 2024

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Scorer's Dark Deal/Conversion skill cancels its self out when ever you Block, Roll Dodge, Bash, Sprint, or Weapon Swap. I often find myself pausing combat entirely just to hit the skill, which seems to be against the kind of fast paced action you want to build into the game.

I suspect the cast time was added to it to prevent block tanks from abusing the skill because it has an incredible amount of resource return, which Sorc desperately needs because its skill costs are insanely high. The massive resource return is needed just to use the class skills.

To help achieve the goals of fast paced combat perhaps the one time instant burst sustain could be distributed over 20 or 30 seconds without a cast time being placed on the skill, so that Sorc could then use the base game actions of Block, Dodge Roll, Sprint, and Weapon Swapping to help achieve the goals of continuous action while using the skill.

I was told that Dark Deal originally didn't have a channel but it was brought in because people were spamming it in PvP and becoming unkillable.
A good solution would be similar to Streak where the cost increases by 33% when cast within 4s of the previous casting. This would make the skill viable for Sorc Tanking in PvE while preventing abuse in PvP.
If they also allowed the Minor Sorcery/Brutality to be an AOE that affects the party, DK will now have a serious contender in PvE tanking.

They were just spamming it because you could block cast it. So they made it so you had to block drop to use it, because people were spamming it to keep their Stamina up so the could infinitely block. I think a better solution would be to make the resource return be over time instead of instant, it fixes that problem without having to have the cast time.

Sabre · March 2024

Contrary to some of the comments here, animation cancelling while getting the effect/dmg of the animation should absolutely be eliminated. If the animation of a skill is 'cancelled' by using block or light attack, then the damage for that skill should also not occur because, in essence, the skill was cancelled. No animation, no effect. One should be able to cancel with block, but not get the skill benefit. Furthermore, the defender should be able to see the attack whether it be an instant ability, channel, or light/heavy attack, so that the defender can then use a counter core ability or wpn/class ability to counter the attack. Animation cancelling negates the defender being able to know that they are being attacked, in some cases multiple times, by abilities upon which they cannot react, or even see or know are happening. Even a light attack has a brief 'animation' that should have to complete so that one can react to it. The ANIMATION is the notification to the defender that an enemy is attacking or casting/channeling etc.

As for the 'hybridization' of things' - Everything from class sets, to ability passives, racial passives, abilities themselves, etc need reworked because they are based upon a STAM vs MAG build theory. Simply changing everything to Wpn & Spell damage, vs. having only one or the other is not enough of a change. The Arcanist abilities that simply follow the highest of either ability is ridiculously simple and while it is an attempt at innovation, it simply reinforces the failure of this simplified system. You could probably just throw away many of the sets because, with the dumbed down system they are replicas of the same thing. Plus, now you can stack magicka and stamina sets like Hundings Rage and Law of Julianos, because they are now weapon&spell damage. One could look at all the different sets other hybridization examples that basically negate the need for some sets now.

Hybridization was a mistake. The game is being dumbed down to elementary arcade game levels. Why haven't they made a class that focuses on stamina/warrior rather than magicka? Who knows. The class system is flawed at its core, and with so much content, probably can't be reworked and fixed. How about some other kind of class that can cloak like the nightblade?

Bring back Max Stam buffing wpn dmg and penetration, and do the same for magicka. This creates diversity of builds. One might think that the whole system could be reworked to have schools of magic, a martial combat skill tree (with weapon specialization at the top). The fact that class skills were split between a stamina version and a magicka version is disappointing (to use a milder term than was considered). This is a cheap way to make two skills out of the same animation...but it creates where a weapon/stam/non magic user (supposedly) can cast a spell with the same animation and it just costs stamina. NOW...one can buff their weapon damage and still cast all the magicka abilities. Dumbed down even more. A templar can use a 2h sword, get the dmg buff, and use all of the heals and spells of the templar...like honor the dead. no need for a stam heal ability or potions. Everything is basically dumbed down to animation differences, not actual differences. All the classes are the same, they just go about it in different ways. All the abilities were normalized, and now there is nothing new...a dps tree, a tank tree, and a heal tree...<yawn> .

Many skills now are dependent upon 'max health' for the shield buff, or the damage of the ability...but nothing is dependent upon max stamina or max magicka? Only max health for assorted skills? combine that with weapon and spell damage are no longer separate...and a sword or bow also increases spell damage...now all that matter is not max stat, but only stacking dmg, crit, and pen...it is simplified and unified to basically get rid of another one of the variables one would use for a build. The max stat dynamic tempered the stacking of health and damages because abilities would lack power if they did not have some max stat to go with it. The lack of need for max stats further dumbs things down, negates the benefits of bothering to use sets that increase stats. Now it is stack health, stack damage, and get regeneration for sustain.

The only class semi differnt than all others is the nightblade and the sorc with its pets. Why doesn't the Necro have slottable pet undead? WTH! When one thinks necro..one thinks risen undead followers...not magic missile skulls (a skin for the same ability used over and over in different ways). One imagines having skeletons, spirits, zombies, maybe some powerful undead lord ultimate. Perhaps...the follower system could be reworked into the companion ally system and allow more than one of the followers. This is a digression...but it boils down to hybridization and normalization of everything...where the skills are just skin animations of the same thing rather than being truly unique and engaging. Yes, they vary ini terms of passive effects, duration, damage type...but in the end, it is the same thing over and over.

The lack of character custom skills like strength, agility, intelligence, etc. make the skill system even more dumbed down. Were there more complexity, there might be more variables to play with...but as it is, there isn't anything new to do. Arcanist was a nice try...but one needs to cast noodle abilities to get crux to have any meaningful effect..it is simply inefficient, although interesting (the necrom map and content is very good!)
It seems appropriate to say that the Arcanist beam spell is truly innovative, because it does not follow the target like arrows and other spells. This is how bow attacks and other attacks should be, rather than curving and following the target. This is a huge innovation to combat and aiming, etc.
Magicka/stamina skill morphs were ridiculously simple and...disappointing to begin with...hybridization only further reveals the terribly flawed class system and now stamina/weapon users are magicians too - it is quite frankly ridiculous and elementary arcade game-like.

Artem_gig · April 2024

Please allow players using the bow to choose in the gameplay settings exactly how the heavy attack will be used. In this regard, whether to immediately release the arrow as soon as the heavy attack is charged, or still when the player himself releases the button, in order for the shot to occur.

ViggyBoi · April 2024

Would it be possible to extend the duration of either Carnage or the major berserk buff tied to Hircine's rage so that they aren't so short and overlap each other so often on a werewolf rotation? Even by a couple of seconds?

xylena_lazarow · June 2024

Please stop putting cast times on melee skills. It feels horrible. Nobody is going to use 2h Smash, seriously whose idea was it to clone Cleave but put a horrible clunky cast time on it (because the 2h line doesn't already have enough horrible clunky cast times on skills that nobody likes). Similarly, stop buffing ranged attackers, it's turning PvP into a bad shooter, Sorc Ward is still broken, melee gets slower and clumsier while range gets burst procs and reliable instant attacks?

Asdara · September 2024

The current Sorcerer class sets are SO misaligned with these stated game's "core combat values", they need a complete rework asap. Here’s why:

"Play The Way You Want": Sorcerer sets lack innovation and don’t offer diverse build options. They fail to enhance any unique Sorcerer play styles, like lightning magic, restricting player freedom and creativity.

"Active Combat": The sets don't contribute to the dynamic, fast-paced combat ESO promotes (or anything, really). They miss opportunities to enhance Sorcerer’s mobility or active lightning abilities, making combat feel less and less engaging.

"Mastery": These sets don’t encourage any slight progression or any skill refinement. They provide absolutly no depth for long-term players seeking to optimize Sorcerer builds and rotations, undermining the game's focus on mastery.

"Elder Scrolls Inspired": The lack of support for lightning damage ignores the iconic part of the Elder Scrolls lore, leaving sorcerers class identity underdeveloped.

Despite repeated concerns from players, no meaningful changes have been made, leaving us feeling undervalued and disconnected from the game’s evolving combat system as always.

Please if a dev sees this: check my previous post regarding the necessity to rework sorcerer class sets https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/664497/reworking-sorcerer-class-sets-should-be-a-priority/p1

MindOfTheSwarm · October 2024

Overall I’m happy with the game. PvP has issues but always has. If there is one thing I’d like it’s a more Disease skills. Either a weapon skill line, new class or some other. Disease is woefully underrepresented and NB and Necro really don’t have enough in their kit to make a true Disease build.

MincMincMinc · November 2024

Please focus on developing clear and concise gameplay. Things that ARE important should BE important. Things that CAN be counterplayed, SHOULD be telegraphed as such with clear opportunities. Focus on making digestible and fun combat instead of convoluted messes.

Ultimates and CC should be prioritized animation wise. Spammable skills should not have flashy animations that hide the vastly more important effects happening in combat. Example being meteor and Valkyn Skoria: one being a deadly ultimate that can decimate a group of players, the other is an uncounterable proc set...... but they have the same animation.
Snares and Immobolizes(roots) are far too prevalent with limited sources of immunity. The vast majority of players rely on counterplay skills such as Race Against Time and Warden's Predator skill. Both of these skills do not focus on incentivizing the counterplay and rewarding it. Example: Applies 4s of snare and immobilize immunity, upon succesfully removing a snare or immobilize grant the user 4s of major expedition or double the duration of immunity.
Skills and effects do not need to be paragraphs long, reduce the convoluted designs. Example old Dizzy swing vs new dizzy swing. Prior to Elsweyr Dizzy was simple and understood by everyone including new players, a long telegraphed cast that was easy to see and long enough to counter. If not countered, the defending player was punished with damage and a knockup. Now newer dizzy has a short cast time and less than stellar damage which goes against core build ideas for the 2h burst playstyle. It applies one of two debuffs based on a near invisible debuff animation with unknown effects. Seriously Offbalance is not explained in game with values available to the common player who doesnt do testing for timers/cooldowns. On top of the random debuff, if a player is offbalance the stun is not tied to the skill. Which means that the defending player cannot anticipate a critical CC which otherwise they should have been able to counterplay against to avoid entirely. If anything the offbalance+snare debuff playstyle would make more sense on the last Dual Wield skill, where a more bursty reward skill pairs with the 2h single big hit bursty nature.

Early on many people compared ESO's combat to a fighting game type of back and forth play/counterplay. Now adays combat is such a blurry mess of wtf is going on.

Slash8915 · January 18

Combat in ESO is by far the number one complaint I see people make online when talking about this game. It's why a lot of people stopped playing, it's why a lot of people refuse to start playing, and it honestly needs to be addressed.

The floaty, unimpactful combat just doesn't feel good. That coupled with all of the weaving and animation canceling makes it just not fun or engaging.

Also, you've added multiple new classes but no new weapons. I think adding a few new weapons to the mix with new skill lines could make a huge difference in how people play their characters and roles in general. Why this game has been out for 11 years and not a single new weapon has been added is beyond me.

Tonturri · January 20

Slash8915 wrote: »

Combat in ESO is by far the number one complaint I see people make online when talking about this game. It's why a lot of people stopped playing, it's why a lot of people refuse to start playing, and it honestly needs to be addressed.

The floaty, unimpactful combat just doesn't feel good. That coupled with all of the weaving and animation canceling makes it just not fun or engaging.

Also, you've added multiple new classes but no new weapons. I think adding a few new weapons to the mix with new skill lines could make a huge difference in how people play their characters and roles in general. Why this game has been out for 11 years and not a single new weapon has been added is beyond me.

+1 to this. I've been craving another magicka weapon too, or at least a magic-damage staff of some sort as sometimes I don't want to deal with the whole elemental theming of frost/fire/lightning. Sacrificing some skeevers on an altar and hoping the next class is a monk and primarily stamina based + unarmed weapons, maybe? A spear would be quite cool and has some really good examples to draw from - GW2 recently added spears, even!

Idinuse · January 20

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Hey, I was browsing the forums and read your post. I really enjoyed it, and like the direction the game is going. I decided to toss in a comment to help with that direction in regards to one skill in the game. I copied and pasted down below part of the initial post you made.

"Active Combat

We believe combat is more engaging when you are on the move and continuously taking action. Battles should be exhilarating, with threats and opportunities coming fast and you feeling empowered to respond in kind. In any given moment you should have options for reacting to your opponents and shouldn't be held back by long waits between actions. This requires controls to be responsive and consistent so you feel connected to your character and in control of the outcomes of your battles.

Block, Roll Dodge, and Bash/Interrupt are not constrained by the global cooldown
No ability cooldowns and a short global cooldown
Most abilities are instant, with cast times being the exception
Weapon swapping"

Scorer's Dark Deal/Conversion skill cancels its self out when ever you Block, Roll Dodge, Bash, Sprint, or Weapon Swap. I often find myself pausing combat entirely just to hit the skill, which seems to be against the kind of fast paced action you want to build into the game.

I suspect the cast time was added to it to prevent block tanks from abusing the skill because it has an incredible amount of resource return, which Sorc desperately needs because its skill costs are insanely high. The massive resource return is needed just to use the class skills.

To help achieve the goals of fast paced combat perhaps the one time instant burst sustain could be distributed over 20 or 30 seconds without a cast time being placed on the skill, so that Sorc could then use the base game actions of Block, Dodge Roll, Sprint, and Weapon Swapping to help achieve the goals of continuous action while using the skill.

This. Plus the Sorcerer "instant cast" skills suffer far too much from long animations that in effect gives them a "cast time" which is impossible to animation cancel (i.e. block cancels the animation and skill entirely, how's that for an "instant" cast...). The "instant" cast of a proced Crystal Frag is a great example. In 80% of the time it feels like I can get hit twice between pressing the key and the frag actually going off. Most of the time I have to press it 3 times on top of that animation. Having "Instant" written on a skill does not make it so. Also there are far too many "instant" mag skills that are near impossible to animation cancel compared to stam skills.

If ZOS wants a "fast paced" combat game they need to make all skills behave exactly the same way (cast wise) if labeled "Instant" - mag or stam.

Rungar · March 10

such a wonderful game unfortunately completely ruined by non dodge weaving/animation cancelling. I cant believe after all this time they still havent fixed that. The biggest complaint the game has ever had lol.

Dont waste your time trying to "upgrade" the combat without fixing that. Crazy. This really is the best mmo out there but its held back by shoddy combat and always was.

amazing item system
massive amount of content
good classes
combat: decent until you have to weave to progress with it.
dungeons good but repetetive linear design. I even gave you the blueprint for amazing innovative dungeons ( radial dungeons) years ago but i guess you werent interested. Your loss. i did see you finally changed it up this round with the defense based dungeon. I guess thats something.

Your only real competition is you. Theres lots of interest in mmos but little competetion..but nothing new/good to play. If you want to get people back upgrade the combat experience, and maybe upgrade the graphics engine to unreal 5 or something newer that can handle more players. Youve done the same thing over and over for years and years and its kept you alive but also kept you from thriving. Relaunch the game with new graphics, new designs, new combat.. If you need ideas check out my ideas emporium. It has literally everything you need.

Xirks · April 22

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Play The Way You Want
We strive to provide freedom and flexibility that allow you to transform your character fantasy into a gameplay reality. We value diversity of choice and playstyle with abilities, weapons, and armor. Some combinations of these tools are more effective than others, but every character should have the capacity to protect their group, mend allies, or devastate foes.
Wear any combination of light, medium, and heavy armor

Slot abilities from any skill line you've discovered

"Deck building" through a selection of abilities, items, Champion Points, etc.

Active Combat
We believe combat is more engaging when you are on the move and continuously taking action. Battles should be exhilarating, with threats and opportunities coming fast and you feeling empowered to respond in kind. In any given moment you should have options for reacting to your opponents and shouldn't be held back by long waits between actions. This requires controls to be responsive and consistent so you feel connected to your character and in control of the outcomes of your battles.
Block, Roll Dodge, and Bash/Interrupt are not constrained by the global cooldown

No ability cooldowns and a short global cooldown

Most abilities are instant, with cast times being the exception

Weapon swapping

Mastery
Whether you've played for 10 minutes or 1000 hours, there should always be something to learn or improve upon. That loop of learning should be consistently fun and rewarding. Our combat is designed to challenge you along two primary paths: character builds and skillful execution. Outside of combat, your character build should test your ability to refine a large number of choices into a proficient engine for battle. Tests of skillful execution occur during battle, challenging you to realize the potential of your build and outperform opponents in fast-paced, active combat.
Builds consist of the combination of abilities, items and Champion Points

Real-time resource management (Health, Magicka, Stamina, Ultimate)

Optimizing ability rotations and timing

Light attack weaving

Group “builds” and synergies

Sorry but you all have totally destroyed this, we can't build how we want anymore. Your tank meta and hybridization has destroyed the combat system and the class diversity in a nutshell. This game used to be so good.. no one enjoys it anymore other than the people that you make sure to keep happy. (the crown store buyers) which is pretty much your entire population now. No one wants a game where you can be a tank/dps/and healer at the same time.. ESO was THE game. Now ZOS doesn't even hide the fact that they don't listen to their players. Im just totally shocked you haven't removed all the skills yet, the way its heading..

nb_rich · May 7

Having a cap on how many targets are hit with a skill is going to look so funny. Imagine jabbing or beaming through enemies and they take no damage lol.

Nihilr · May 28

nb_rich wrote: »

Having a cap on how many targets are hit with a skill is going to look so funny. Imagine jabbing or beaming through enemies and they take no damage lol.

They're protecting ballgroups for PvP at all costs. Detriment to the rest of the players who want to "loosely" play together rather than huddled and heal-stacking the same abilities (zero skill, copy paste).

Sabre · May 30

Ezorus wrote: »

This is a whole lot of nothing post again.
The game is at its lowest point, people aren't playing, streamers aren't streaming. I log in for the daily reward and log out.
Combat has been downhill since the introduction of mythics, mix matching armour weights, hybridisation, scaling healing with damage instead of max stats (or having it's own stat), nerfing play styles (ganking, bows, bombing, shields, procs), adding over powered sets (only to nerf them a month later).... All of it takes away the "play how you want", class identity and the fun of theory crafting

One would have to agree with you. Unfortunately, instead of adding complexity to things, it keeps getting dumbed down more and more. Choice is a form of expression. How characters look, how they emote, what mount they ride, which companion do they like, etc. etc. All of this involves choice. The same goes for class selection. Appeasing the Elder Scrolls Critics because the game has classes (traditional ES single player games do not have classes) sailed long ago when a the game was released in 2014. They knew this then. Ruining the game now by subclassing to compete with the ease of other newer games that allow flip flopping classes...that is not ESO. Making real changes with new character ability content like weapons, chain mail armor, restructuring how damage/armor/resources etc (armor should not give damage bonuses, for example..only mitigate). We want NEW stuff. Not subclassing 10 year old skills. Plz - I wish they wouldn't do this. How many people have actually finished the content in all the zones? Most have not. They casually play and are attached to their characters. That is fun. No Question.
How about we just combine magicka and stamina into one 'Power' bar? lol. Along with that, let's get rid of the Fighter's Guild and Mage's Guild - just call it the it doesn't matter anymore guild - you want to be a warrior? Why? you can be an all powerful mage, too, just increase your weapon damage champ!!!(These two entities are so underdeveloped for mag/stam users. imagine the skills and things that could go through new quests etc. for these guild) Mythics, especially Oaken Soul, have destroyed the build strategy. Mythics are ok...a 5 set piece bonus? No. Too overpowered. Burst AOE's hurt the game...fighting skill, blocking, dodging, potion and resource management, these seem lost to spamming burst aoe's, lightning staff hvy attack builds that cost not resources, etc.
A few skill types should bee added to the Guild and World classes. An actual 20% dmg Major Brutality/Major Sorcery buff Like the Warden or DK have and dont require an attack to initiate. A stealth/invisibility skill in Legerdemain so all classes can do the thief/assassin quests. Add more pets to the game, through new stave types, or some extra skill, some way to allow more pets (each class should have them actually). Beyond those things, subclassing will accomplish nothing but overpower in some areas, and make 50% of all the skills obsolete. Like...who will use the Necro healing line of skills? Or who will use the Arcanist skills besides the overpowered beam? Not many arcanist tanks running around - the need for crux/corpses vs. casting abilities without those requirements make those classes tedious. Why bother. Resolving class issues would be better than the subclass idea. One Necro heal actually penalizes you for using it. Terrible.
All of what you mentioned should be reversed. Instead, we get subclassing hidden behind the curiosity 'what if' factor of mixing classes. However, there are not thousands of choices, only about a dozen after the dust settles. In the meantime, valuable skills for pure classes are already being changed. Changes to pure classes were not supposed to happen. With Guild and World Skills, combined with some other things, subclassing is not necessary. The class identities are liked by ppl. Subclassing will cause that realization - but once it is released...it will be too late. If some new overhaul was being done to everything, it would be great. However, subclassing is a cheap, dreamy premise that is not welcomed by probably 70% of the population. I have a little fun now and then thinking about subclassing and the pet builds, ultra tank builds, etc. etc. by combining classes. But it isn't worth it. The whole idea is being sold on this curiosity - but it is only that, and not substantive. After 6 months it will get very boring with no classes. Game Killer.

splatpop · June 30

okay so this is just my personal hot takes, but i've been playing off and on for quite a few years now and i'd kinda like to give my feedback on my personal experience of this game's combat and how it relates to the stated core values:

freedom and flexibility, but underpowered sets and skills (ie most of them) are left to fester without any buffs or changes for years and years - many of them have barely been touched in the decade of the game's existance - and the handful of fun and/or strong things in the game are repeatedly nerfed until they're neither fun nor strong. the shared values between pvp and pve have made both sides suffer immensely as things that are strong on one end get nerfed and become utterly unusable on the other end, over and over; a complaint i've seen repeated pretty much since the game started but has never been dealt with by just properly separating things.

lots of mentions of active and reactive combat without long waits, but that's instantly negated by the janky global cooldown, absurdly long proc cooldowns, and reliance on 10 button rotations, making the game feel as unresponsive and clunky as a 1999 dial-up mmo. the fact that oakensoul instantly became the most popular item in the game as soon as it was added should really tell y'all something about how little most of us enjoy long rotations.

skillful execution that boils down to mastering the clunky cooldown via weaving etc, mechanics that no other video game does intentionally because most people find it awkward and bad to play (though i think if it's ever properly dealt with/moderninized, that stuff should still stick around in some form for oldbies, it'd be a mistake to TOTALLY erase a core mechanic even if it's one most newer players hate). the fact that velothi ur-mage's amulet became similarly popular on its release should tell you how much many of us enjoy this mechanic, as well.

imo, for me personally, subclassing has been a massive improvement in building, since it lets me use the tiny handful of skills that are actually enjoyable (green kamehameha, templar stab, etc; generally aoe non-targeted abilies with enough core dps to handle solo stuff without rotating the same six buttons endlessly; which is functionally the same as just using one skill but you press more buttons because more buttons is more fun i guess? hence why action games lauded for their combat like doom or devil may cry or dark souls famously use 10 button rotations instead of one or two attack buttons... sorry i got off track). however, subclassing really drives home how unappealing and unfun 90% of the game's dps skills are, thanks to the targeting being so picky and clunky that targeted skills aren't worth using against anything other than bosses and the plethora of useless single target attacks (since the only single-target attack worth using is always going to be the one with the highest dps, and thanks to global cooldowns and a lack of damage buffs and scaling variety, that's always going to be the same one or two skills).

still, while i don't entirely understand the perspective that class identity is important or that subclassing somehow takes away from not using the feature, i think the fact that it's a repeated concern a lot of older players have deserves a look. it's come up enough times that even if i can't wrap my head around why increasing the diversity of options could be bad, i think folks who are turned off by it could use some acknowledgment and some work on appeasing their concern. it seems like there could still be room for some passive benefit to sticking entirely within a vanilla class. and that's all i'm willing to concede lol.

anyway. all just my opinion! but even as someone with over a thousand hours i don't think i've enjoyed the combat once in all that time. the fact that i can go back to OG oblivion - not even the remaster - and get more responsive, active, and enjoyable combat is kind of sad. i know this is an mmo but i'd hope that it doesn't need to feel like one, and certainly not like one from the previous century.

Medieval3D · September 28

Please add some fists/hand-to-hand/unarmed skill, some feature or champion points that integrates the simple hand-to-hand combat into the game, would be so immersive, I'm not talking about create a class, please do not never create a class like 'the typical monk class'... with shinnies and pompous light effects and vain features. I'm just suggesting simple hand-to-hand integrated into the game mechanics, could be useful having a champion point skill in example, so to be worthy in terms not just for immersion purposes but for run dungeons and why not even more competitive categories as PvP.

diamondo · October 4

When is null arcs getting a nerf or adjustment please very op set

dwolfgheist · December 9

Medieval3D wrote: »

Please add some fists/hand-to-hand/unarmed skill, some feature or champion points that integrates the simple hand-to-hand combat into the game, would be so immersive, I'm not talking about create a class, please do not never create a class like 'the typical monk class'... with shinnies and pompous light effects and vain features. I'm just suggesting simple hand-to-hand integrated into the game mechanics, could be useful having a champion point skill in example, so to be worthy in terms not just for immersion purposes but for run dungeons and why not even more competitive categories as PvP.

Would be great don't expect it in the near future though, currently you only have skills that should feature the weapon you use, however you appear to be empy handed while executing them.

dwolfgheist · December 9

Here is my take, I played since Beta.

AOE is one of the main enemies of healthy PVE and PVP, mainly aoe's that stick around the player or have him as the center point, think about the sorcs Orkan, Warden Ultimate, dual wield's spin to win and in regards to healing, the templar's sacred ritual. They require little skill and have a huge impact on the battlefield, with no true counters besides major evasion (but trust me you'll still get spanked by the warden). They also affect performance and some have just too much light effects. Skill design should me more simplistic and AOE mostly avoided for spammable skills, I would much rather have small rune symbols around my char than giant flashing lights, they are also what makes Zergs and ball groups unbeatable, no chance to sneak attack the rear with everyone spamming aoe heals.

With this I don't mean they shouldn't exist, but be very scarce or have a execution time (I don't mean cone abilities with low range like tentacles). Based on my experience this is also one of the cases in which pvp and pve clash, since nerfs due to pvp here aren't really needed in pve, but then again pve already suffers from being too eazy (excluding DLC HM).

Shields should do less damage than any other weapon, this is no longer the case with bash attacks, it has so many defensive perks it is ridiculous that they get to have almost the same damage as other weapons (some builds exceeding) and arguably more mobility due to their last passive.
Added to that, being able to swap between 2 types of weapons is one of the things that have been screwing balance for years, what are you gonna do against a guy with shield, and frost destro staff? If you ain't overtuned for damage, not even a scratch is what you'll do, either that or go for the same aproach. I am not against swapping, but there should definitely be a penalty for using a different type of weapon in each bar, like a delay in the swap to properly change the weapons (so that both can also be visually present at all times).

Hybridization was never concluded, it's a nuisance for old players and not understandable/extremely confusing for new players.
I would take this opportunity to finish it, since the changes you need to do will be major anyway, I would take this as the starting point for all the rest. Speaking of it, all class abilities should be magicka, none feel like stamina even physical, bleed and poison ones, neither is there a need for them to be anymore with hybridization. Stamina will always be relevant for dodging/blocking/melee and bow skills which can also be expanded upon. if you make most skills scale only from weapon/spell damage (they should be the same in the current situation) instead of including max stam/magicka the choice between how much stamina/magicka a player wants would be based only on the cost of the skills they use (with weapon skills gaining new relevance due to being the only ones with a stam cost) and how much they want to be able to use dodge/block/break free which would be by far more intuitive for new players and also diverse, possibly creating a sustainable character identity that fills a role, based on the weapons and skills picked, with class being just one of the building blocks (ex: preferred damage type or way to do damage), which I think is what ultimately most desire.

I never enjoyed how Hard CC works, it's not intuitive at all for new players and screws immersion too; a crab being able to tank a meteor and keep crawling your way due to being stunned before and getting the CC immunity passive being a prime example of that. I think stuns could take longer to execute but in exchange be devastating once they hit, when you or the opponents don't have the stam to break free. The current hard CC immunity after break free could be a CP passive instead. This could make combat more tactical if done properly.

The light weaving is controversial, since it's a hard mechanic to learn and when mastered it's devastating against those who don't (you can't see my LA and I ain't even that good).
Why not make light and heavy attacks cost resources so that light attacks become something that should be used carefully rather than just being something that you either have the right eyesight and coordination for it, which is hard for the majority to do in it's best form. I mean they do damage, it's weird that we gain resources from them in the first place. Their damage should be increased to account for the resource loss of course although we currently have enough sustain options, that way everyone would be happy, since mastering weaving would still have paid off in this scenario.

You should honestly do internally a set division between the types Defense, Damage, Healing and utility and start seeing what is in excess. AS many already mentioned some sets are useless. You could add similiar effects to sets that are in the meta to those useless sets but with different damage types/proc animations. Essentially making them the same as their meta counterparts but giving them use for players that want a thematic build.

Only Sorc trully gets mobility skill with streak, and I am fine with streak being the strongest movement ability, but there should be other non-class abilities that propell you forward in a similiar fashion. No, mist form doesn't work the same way, mainy due to speed, if I streak I'll be alive at the end of the path, with mist form I'll die halfway.

Cleanses are very strong and warden gets one for free every 5 seconds, + major sorcery + 5% damage if unused, + stam/mana reg. What is the wardens weakness to account for that? Oh right they also get shalks and the frost line, arguably the best defensive line with neat offensive perks + healing skills.

I played all classes and necro is still the most cluncky by a land slide with the abilities also being mostly ugly, yet I love the class due to blastbone (how cool would it be if it came with knockback?) but I have to go out of my way so I can avoid the beams that should never have existed in the first place (symphoning life force can be depicted in so many ways, green laser coming from a corpse is just uncalled for), the only corpse abilities that make sense is the aoe from the healing line and the one from the tank line. This is also one of the reasons why I welcomed multi-classing. But a pure necro should be viable and their skills should adhere the necro theme more, because currently most aren't, even the graveyard bugs me, necros summon corpses and evil spirits not tombstones, how are they even doing damage? This one does go back to the first point, in how aoe should be done better with only a few abilities having it and the visuals being very clear on which areas are affected by it (no, the red circles are not a solution). This is actually one of the few skills in which due to range and tombstones the aoe is clearly visible and no further indication is needed, however I need the damn red circles to know if it's friendly or not. So AOE dots are a problem in that regard too.

StihlReign · December 9

"Play The Way You Want" seems to be going in the toilet right before our eyes...

Mastery
Whether you've played for 10 minutes or 1000 hours, there should always be something to learn or improve upon. That loop of learning should be consistently fun and rewarding. Our combat is designed to challenge you along two primary paths: character builds and skillful execution. Outside of combat, your character build should test your ability to refine a large number of choices into a proficient engine for battle. Tests of skillful execution occur during battle, challenging you to realize the potential of your build and outperform opponents in fast-paced, active combat.
Builds consist of the combination of abilities, items and Champion Points

Real-time resource management (Health, Magicka, Stamina, Ultimate)

Optimizing ability rotations and timing

Light attack weaving

Group “builds” and synergies

Not sure how Vengeance...never mind.
Guessing this philosophy is out the door for PvP.

dwolfgheist · December 9

Sabre wrote: »

Ezorus wrote: »

This is a whole lot of nothing post again.
The game is at its lowest point, people aren't playing, streamers aren't streaming. I log in for the daily reward and log out.
Combat has been downhill since the introduction of mythics, mix matching armour weights, hybridisation, scaling healing with damage instead of max stats (or having it's own stat), nerfing play styles (ganking, bows, bombing, shields, procs), adding over powered sets (only to nerf them a month later).... All of it takes away the "play how you want", class identity and the fun of theory crafting

One would have to agree with you. Unfortunately, instead of adding complexity to things, it keeps getting dumbed down more and more. Choice is a form of expression. How characters look, how they emote, what mount they ride, which companion do they like, etc. etc. All of this involves choice. The same goes for class selection. Appeasing the Elder Scrolls Critics because the game has classes (traditional ES single player games do not have classes) sailed long ago when a the game was released in 2014. They knew this then. Ruining the game now by subclassing to compete with the ease of other newer games that allow flip flopping classes...that is not ESO. Making real changes with new character ability content like weapons, chain mail armor, restructuring how damage/armor/resources etc (armor should not give damage bonuses, for example..only mitigate). We want NEW stuff. Not subclassing 10 year old skills. Plz - I wish they wouldn't do this. How many people have actually finished the content in all the zones? Most have not. They casually play and are attached to their characters. That is fun. No Question.
How about we just combine magicka and stamina into one 'Power' bar? lol. Along with that, let's get rid of the Fighter's Guild and Mage's Guild - just call it the it doesn't matter anymore guild - you want to be a warrior? Why? you can be an all powerful mage, too, just increase your weapon damage champ!!!(These two entities are so underdeveloped for mag/stam users. imagine the skills and things that could go through new quests etc. for these guild) Mythics, especially Oaken Soul, have destroyed the build strategy. Mythics are ok...a 5 set piece bonus? No. Too overpowered. Burst AOE's hurt the game...fighting skill, blocking, dodging, potion and resource management, these seem lost to spamming burst aoe's, lightning staff hvy attack builds that cost not resources, etc.
A few skill types should bee added to the Guild and World classes. An actual 20% dmg Major Brutality/Major Sorcery buff Like the Warden or DK have and dont require an attack to initiate. A stealth/invisibility skill in Legerdemain so all classes can do the thief/assassin quests. Add more pets to the game, through new stave types, or some extra skill, some way to allow more pets (each class should have them actually). Beyond those things, subclassing will accomplish nothing but overpower in some areas, and make 50% of all the skills obsolete. Like...who will use the Necro healing line of skills? Or who will use the Arcanist skills besides the overpowered beam? Not many arcanist tanks running around - the need for crux/corpses vs. casting abilities without those requirements make those classes tedious. Why bother. Resolving class issues would be better than the subclass idea. One Necro heal actually penalizes you for using it. Terrible.
All of what you mentioned should be reversed. Instead, we get subclassing hidden behind the curiosity 'what if' factor of mixing classes. However, there are not thousands of choices, only about a dozen after the dust settles. In the meantime, valuable skills for pure classes are already being changed. Changes to pure classes were not supposed to happen. With Guild and World Skills, combined with some other things, subclassing is not necessary. The class identities are liked by ppl. Subclassing will cause that realization - but once it is released...it will be too late. If some new overhaul was being done to everything, it would be great. However, subclassing is a cheap, dreamy premise that is not welcomed by probably 70% of the population. I have a little fun now and then thinking about subclassing and the pet builds, ultra tank builds, etc. etc. by combining classes. But it isn't worth it. The whole idea is being sold on this curiosity - but it is only that, and not substantive. After 6 months it will get very boring with no classes. Game Killer.

I partially agree, specially regarding aoe I'm with you, but using corpses makes sense for a necro's a theme, (I don't care enough about the arkanist to know if crux makes sense or not) , but the abilities shouldn't require to look at the corpse to use them, having one in the vicinity should be enough, or give them a non corpse boosted variant for when you don't have corpses.
*Multiclassing isn't the issue, but it enhances the other issues you mentioned, and is in part a solution (you want more pets? go get the ones from the other lines, sorc and necros pets kinda work well together visually anyway) You even comment how you want guild class skills boosted, meaning not be bound to your class. And hybridization is indeed not complete, but realistically speaking in the world of eso you would always use magicka, you got no chance as a pure mace wielding berserker, issue is that damage type is almost meaningless right now (physical vs magical) and in some cases just weird due to major sorcery/brutality still working based on the old system. So no, I don't think all classes should have them, that's one of the perks of multiclasssing: you desperately want a pet as a templar, well now you can, the only issue is that none fit the theme, but give matriarch a angelic skin and you got that issue solved too. From a lore perspective he would still be a templar that just decided to dip into summoning (the sorcs summoning line is one of the few that respect the eso lore perfectly since it has the same type of magic that is usually known as conjuring in the rest of TES)