Subclassing has sucked the life out of patch 46

xylena_lazarow · May 19

Subclassing has given build PvP new life at a time it desperately needed it. The live meta is so stale, while PTS duels are still active over a month in. I can't remember the last time PvP'ers were this into the PTS. As I've mentioned in other threads, the biggest PvP pain points are going to be double spectral bows, and the continued existence of Rushing Agony. Maybe some annoying ranged gank build will show up, but we've had plenty of those over the years without subclassing.

SilverBride · May 19

I've not seen any talk about it in guild chat, and I've only seen a handful of posts about it in our guild discord server that is for all 3 of our sister guilds, and that fizzled out after a few posts. So not a lot of excitement.

cuddles_with_wroble · May 19

Sarannah wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Personally I think subclassing will be a great addition to the game, maybe it will even allow ZOS to unnerf everything that was nerfed over the years. That would bring the flavor to all the trimmed class abilities back.

But I do share some of the concerns some players have stated, like pure classes no longer being 'good'. As players can basically swap bad skilllines for powerful ones from another class. I am really curious to see how ZOS handles this.

My guess for why players aren't discussing U46 in discords(never used discord myself), is because subclassing is so big and impactful, that there is simply too much to discuss about it.

As long as I can stack my master writs for years to come, I will be happy! (hopefully ZOS makes different envelope types for the difficulties purple/golden, otherwise trying to get writ vouchers is going to be a major pain)

PS: Haven't been on the PTS, never have. As I do not like knowing/seeing things in advance.

I have been on the pts, the meta is mostly figured out and there’s really no discussion to be had. Just combine 3 things that are already better than everything else and your winning, it’s that easy

This is the current gaming mindset that is the problem: either be meta or nothing/only rewards vs journey. Where is the sense of playing a game? Having fun? Making fun builds? Enjoying yourself?

Not only does subclassing open up the game and basically grants everyone access to the same meta builds, it also allows players to be creative in the craziest ways. It is going to be fun seeing what players can come up with. If outfitting and housing is any indication, it is going to be absolutely wild! As ESO has one of the most creative communities from any game I have ever played.

That said, I know I am going to try some very fun tanking set-ups! And pet set-ups, as I love pets!

I have been playing since beta and have seen every meta this game has had, these last 5-6 years have been utterly brutal compared to the golden days of pvp, idk if your newer or not but what you maybe don’t understand is that most if not all theory crafting has been systematically removed or dumbed down to toddler lvl at this point.

What works and what doesn’t work is VERY black and white these days and there really isn’t ever a need to test anything or make new builds bcs nothing has fundamentally changed in the last few years.

The things that matter really boil down to these basics:
Can your class abuse Crit
Can your deal it’s own damage or do you need procs
Do I have enough Crit res to survive an incap combo
Does my class have % based flat damage passive and can I abuse them
Can I sustain if I’m losing the fight

You really just have to know if your class is a Crit abuser, a stat stacker, or a proc enjoyer and build accordingly to your passives for defense and you’ll pre much always have a build that’s good

Twohothardware · May 19

Stamicka wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

Improvise, adapt, overcome.

In the case of subclassing, this just means everyone who cares about optimization will end up on the same "class". What's fun about that?

That’s no different than it’s always been. There has always been a best DPS class that Raid groups prefer you be on.

tomofhyrule · May 19

Twohothardware wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

Improvise, adapt, overcome.

In the case of subclassing, this just means everyone who cares about optimization will end up on the same "class". What's fun about that?

That’s no different than it’s always been. There has always been a best DPS class that Raid groups prefer you be on.

I feel like "well, the balance has always been bad, so why not make it worse!" is not really that constructive of an argument.

Wouldn't the better solution be to... fix the balance so each Class at endgame was within a reasonable power delta? Harder to do, of course, but if there was better balance, then people wouldn't feel railroaded into the same thing. And then, that'd also imply that a fully Subclassed build and a pure Class would be equally viable (or at least that each would have different strengths), so people actually could bring what they wanted and be able to still do the sweaty things.

Maggusemm · May 19

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Not in the guild discord or other ESO related discords I am in.

There are concerns about subclassing that have been raised for the team to look at if they wish to but the general 'feeling' seems to be 'not perfect, would be great if some further work as highlighted was done to it, but otherwise an interesting addition to the base game'.

The PTS forum is not a good indicator of what the discourse is like in the 'wider community'.

That is exactly what so many players are thinking. Most player I speak to like it. In this forum there is a very minority of players opening threads with clickbait headlines who open the umpteenth thread about subclassing with their feelings based on the facts of their feelings based on the facts of their mood which is generally bad. Totally ignoring the amazing possibilities of subclassing and without any contructive improvement ideas, just repeating their lamento.

Drinks_from_Ponds · May 19

If you don't like it don't use and stop complaining. This is the next best thing to a class token and we owe our appreciation to the development team for adding this. This will make it easy for people to compete in trials etc.

joergino · May 19

No one to talk to any more. The last fellow player of the small group of people I occasionally used to do dungeons or arenas with logged into the game for the last time three months ago. The others did so two years to eight months ago. Not much life left to be sucked out of, it appears.

SilverBride · May 19

Drinks_from_Ponds wrote: »

If you don't like it don't use and stop complaining.

It's not that simple. If we don't use it we are left using classes that have been nerfed and are now less effective than they were before these changes. Those of us that do not want to subclass are not being given an equitable option.

Erickson9610 · May 19

SilverBride wrote: »

Those of us that do not want to subclass are not being given an equitable option.

People who don't subclass have all their skill lines and the utility in them. This is needed in certain environments (PvP, Arenas) where you need to be more than just a glass cannon to survive.

Maggusemm · May 19

joergino wrote: »

No one to talk to any more. The last fellow player of the small group of people I occasionally used to do dungeons or arenas with logged into the game for the last time three months ago. The others did so two years to eight months ago. Not much life left to be sucked out of, it appears.

you need a link for some discords with hundreds of active players? just PM me

SilverBride · May 19

Erickson9610 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Those of us that do not want to subclass are not being given an equitable option.

People who don't subclass have all their skill lines and the utility in them. This is needed in certain environments (PvP, Arenas) where you need to be more than just a glass cannon to survive.

The skill lines have been nerfed and are no longer as effective. That is not equitable.

Stamicka · May 19

Twohothardware wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

Improvise, adapt, overcome.

In the case of subclassing, this just means everyone who cares about optimization will end up on the same "class". What's fun about that?

That’s no different than it’s always been. There has always been a best DPS class that Raid groups prefer you be on.

No, this is different. Balance used to be ZOS' responsibility and before arcanist came out, all classes were viable in the right hands. It's true that for score pushing, everyone may end up on the same class. When I was raiding though, I was a Templar DPS main. It wasn't great at the time, but not so far behind that I wasn't allowed in raids. In fact, it used to be very possible for someone who was really comfortable and familiar on their main to out damage someone else on whatever was meta at the time. There were some fights where Templar just didn't pull as much damage as the Asylum Staff DKs could (I think that was the meta at the time), but everyone on the team understood that what was good damage for a Templar might only be mediocre damage for the DKs. It was up to ZOS to handle getting things more balanced, but all content was still very completable.

Now it's on YOU though. If you don't subclass your damage will be worse by a pretty large margin, and it's tough to say "well this is my main" when you have the ability to swap out skill lines to improve your damage. Now people won't just think: "oh they are just on a class that's a little behind the others", it'll be "you need to pick up x skill line".

Think of it this way, you could probably show up to a raid on a class that wasn't meta at the time if you're in the right sets and you do good damage. People tended to be more picky about sets because that was more of a choice though. It's different telling someone to get off their main vs telling them to change their sets around.

Now classes are customizable like sets, so you'll be expected to customize it in a certain way. In the past however, people would just accept that you want to play your main class because if you were good at it, you could do just as much or more damage as others on your team even if they were on better classes.

valenwood_vegan · May 19

Drinks_from_Ponds wrote: »

If you don't like it don't use and stop complaining. This is the next best thing to a class token and we owe our appreciation to the development team for adding this. This will make it easy for people to compete in trials etc.

I mean, one could just as easily say enjoy subclassing and stop telling other people what they should think. As a long time player and customer, I get to provide my feedback to zos too, which is that I do not like subclassing as it's been implemented, and guess what... you don't get to stop me. But, I hope those who are excited about it have fun with it.

Estin · May 19

Twohothardware wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

Improvise, adapt, overcome.

In the case of subclassing, this just means everyone who cares about optimization will end up on the same "class". What's fun about that?

That’s no different than it’s always been. There has always been a best DPS class that Raid groups prefer you be on.

It's going to be different than before, really. The best class over the years only mattered for WR runs, and they were never too far ahead of other classes which meant the "weaker" classes could still compete. Subclassing is going to introduce such a large gap between what's best and what's not which means there's no reason or excuse to not use it. Who wants to use a pure class when the optimized subclassed setup is 30%+ better than any pure class? If it was within 5% like it was normally, there wouldn't be any problem except identity, but you wouldn't be forced into using it if you wanted to compete.

YandereGirlfriend · May 19

There are doomsters every patch cycle and people are, generally speaking, fearful of change.

kurbbie_s · May 19

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

There are doomsters every patch cycle and people are, generally speaking, fearful of change.

theres always noobs who spend more time on the forums that accept slop than who play the game.

All of these points are correct. People will chose the strongest class and subclass combination and thats all you will see.
Expect worse ball groups and even more unkillable people relying on proc sets with a suped up skill line.

Imagine a sorc with a nightblades cloak, that just ports away then goes invis then starts sprinting in vamp. Lmfao you guys really dont know what is coming.

Even adding "spell making" to the game changed the meta. If youre not running atleast one of the new skills, youre doing it wrong. But most of the people who want this change, have never set foot in PvP. You know the zone that was the main focus when the game released.

Then take into account Mythics, if youre not running a mythic youre at a massive disadvantage. So yeah, anyone who thinks this is just going to be smooth and great, is a very very new ESO player.

tomofhyrule · May 19

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

There are doomsters every patch cycle and people are, generally speaking, fearful of change.

Can we stop pretending that people who offer legitimate feedback are internet trolls?

It was the same when U35 hit: people on PTS warned about the problems, but all of that legitimate feedback was drowned out by the competing "ESO IS DEAD!!!!!11!1" and "ESO IS PERFECT!!!1!!1!" factions who spend all of their time deriding each other. And what happened on release? Well, the people with the legitimate concerns were proven right in every way, and the two raging bases kept raging and not noticing that 1) ESO was still alive but 2) ESO was nowhere near as healthy as it was before.

Yes, I get tired of the doom-and-gloom people. But ignoring all feedback as "you're just a doomster" is just as obnoxious, and equally misses the point.

kurbbie_s · May 19

tomofhyrule wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

There are doomsters every patch cycle and people are, generally speaking, fearful of change.

Can we stop pretending that people who offer legitimate feedback are internet trolls?

It was the same when U35 hit: people on PTS warned about the problems, but all of that legitimate feedback was drowned out by the competing "ESO IS DEAD!!!!!11!1" and "ESO IS PERFECT!!!1!!1!" factions who spend all of their time deriding each other. And what happened on release? Well, the people with the legitimate concerns were proven right in every way, and the two raging bases kept raging and not noticing that 1) ESO was still alive but 2) ESO was nowhere near as healthy as it was before.

Yes, I get tired of the doom-and-gloom people. But ignoring all feedback as "you're just a doomster" is just as obnoxious, and equally misses the point.

This right here is exactly correct. If anyone of us comes in here explaining in great detail, we always get the diehard defender in here calling us doomers or trolls. It gets really tiring.

colossalvoids · May 19

Daoin wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

Improvise, adapt, overcome.

Only works for something exciting, cool or at least mildly interesting. Here peeps just won't be bothered to.

This saying is about hardships. No need to overcome exciting or cool things.

It's a video game, that's the difference here. It's not a difficulty or a challenge to overcome, it's a design that goes the opposite direction from what some people considered good, fun or needed. And that's not the first time, some day you just call it enough and move on to greener pastures.

but unless you enjoy first person shooters, the pickings of greener pastures are pretty slim to zero for gaming at the moment, so in reality, what better time for sweeping changes than now ?

If you're about flavour of the month gaming sure, but probably not a thing for an ESO audience which is observable not that young to begin with. Didn't saw many people complaining about the changes by themselves either, more about releasing something potentially quite harmful for quite a few demographics potentially being another Morrowind/u35 etc. read: exodus. Not the best thing for a current state ESO tbh.

YandereGirlfriend · May 19

tomofhyrule wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

There are doomsters every patch cycle and people are, generally speaking, fearful of change.

Can we stop pretending that people who offer legitimate feedback are internet trolls?

It was the same when U35 hit: people on PTS warned about the problems, but all of that legitimate feedback was drowned out by the competing "ESO IS DEAD!!!!!11!1" and "ESO IS PERFECT!!!1!!1!" factions who spend all of their time deriding each other. And what happened on release? Well, the people with the legitimate concerns were proven right in every way, and the two raging bases kept raging and not noticing that 1) ESO was still alive but 2) ESO was nowhere near as healthy as it was before.

Yes, I get tired of the doom-and-gloom people. But ignoring all feedback as "you're just a doomster" is just as obnoxious, and equally misses the point.

It's simply human nature.

When change comes to something that a person is using then they typically react negatively. It's different. I will need to do something. It disrupts the comfy status quo. We've all been there.

My builds have been nerfed into Oblivion way more times than I can ever remember, entire playstyles deleted upon the whims of a single PTS. But using the puzzle pieces of the game's systems is a large component of what I enjoy about ESO. So there's always something new and interesting that can be done instead. One door closes, another opens. And that will be the case here as well.

Are there real balance issues that are still unresolved? Absolutely. Do I think that they'll get fixed in a particularly timely manner? Not a chance, since the pace of balance patches is so glacially slow. But the fundamental premise of the system is good. It gives people more puzzle pieces to work with. The goal is to make sure that all of those pieces are equally useful to players. Which currently, they definitely are not.

Advocating for those junk skill lines is where people should be expending their effort.

Also, I'm in a bunch of Discords as well and people are generally hyped about subclassing in them.

YandereGirlfriend · May 19

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

Improvise, adapt, overcome.

In the case of subclassing, this just means everyone who cares about optimization will end up on the same "class". What's fun about that?

That’s no different than it’s always been. There has always been a best DPS class that Raid groups prefer you be on.

I feel like "well, the balance has always been bad, so why not make it worse!" is not really that constructive of an argument.

Wouldn't the better solution be to... fix the balance so each Class at endgame was within a reasonable power delta? Harder to do, of course, but if there was better balance, then people wouldn't feel railroaded into the same thing. And then, that'd also imply that a fully Subclassed build and a pure Class would be equally viable (or at least that each would have different strengths), so people actually could bring what they wanted and be able to still do the sweaty things.

Take this issue to your raid leads because they are the ones enforcing this narrow-minded point of view.

Elvenheart · May 19

Stamicka wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

Improvise, adapt, overcome.

In the case of subclassing, this just means everyone who cares about optimization will end up on the same "class". What's fun about that?

This is no different than how it is now for the people that only care about optimization. This is why so many people are Arcanists.

Elvenheart · May 19

Me, I’m excited. But I only did a little testing on the PTS on a maxed out character because to level Subclasses on live is going to be a lot of work and I don’t want to do it twice. And instead of planning to Subclass with any of my existing level 50 characters at the start, I created a brand new baby character and leveled him to 50 to get him ready for Subclassing.

SilverBride · May 19

I wouldn't be against subclassing if it wasn't for the nerfs making my pure class Characters less effective now.

Character identity means a lot to me, and my Characters' class was the biggest part of who they are. Having to destroy their sense of identity or just accept being a weaker version of who they once were is NOT acceptable.

This is fast becoming a deal breaker for me.

Elvenheart · May 19

SilverBride wrote: »

I wouldn't be against subclassing if it wasn't for the nerfs making my pure class Characters less effective now.

Character identity means a lot to me, and my Characters' class was the biggest part of who they are. Having to destroy their sense of identity or just accept being a weaker version of who they once were is NOT acceptable.

This is fast becoming a deal breaker for me.

I agree, pure classes should never be made weaker versions of themselves for this. Any nerfs that have been made need to be reworked in such a way that they do not hurt people who choose to not Subclass.

Desiato · May 19

Yeah, definitely. I think it's the mid-tier 30+ trial player that is meh about another upheaval and the largest injection of power to the game ever. The younger players seem more excited.

I don't like steamrolling content. To me, the power fantasy comes from skilful play, not pressing a button and watching things blow up. When a set is OP, I want to see it balanced, not take advantage of it.

So now every trial is basically getting the Crags treatment of trivialization. Why would I look forward to that?

I'm currently part of two open trial communities with thousands of members. Open trial discord communities are exactly as they sound: open trials are posted and anyone who meets the particular requirements of that trial can join.

One appeals more to the HM part of the community, the other is much more casual. The former is still very active, but it seems like a small group of players that plays a *lot*. The more casual community has been _completely_ dead since u46 was detailed. It was popping this time last year.

I'm in wait and see mode. I don't know what ESO will have to offer me when u46 launches. I don't care about big damage numbers. I want quality combat experiences. I may continue to occasionally play in a sweaty casual guild I'm in because everyone is so nice, but I can't imagine bothering with any cores.

SilverBride · May 19

Desiato wrote: »

I think it's the mid-tier 30+ trial player that is meh about another upheaval and the largest injection of power to the game ever. The younger players seem more excited.

Younger by age or by time in game?

Twohothardware · May 19

SilverBride wrote: »

I wouldn't be against subclassing if it wasn't for the nerfs making my pure class Characters less effective now.

Character identity means a lot to me, and my Characters' class was the biggest part of who they are. Having to destroy their sense of identity or just accept being a weaker version of who they once were is NOT acceptable.

This is fast becoming a deal breaker for me.

If they didn't tell you about the nerfs in the patch notes it's unlikely you would notice them. That's how small they are.

SilverBride · May 19

Twohothardware wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I wouldn't be against subclassing if it wasn't for the nerfs making my pure class Characters less effective now.

Character identity means a lot to me, and my Characters' class was the biggest part of who they are. Having to destroy their sense of identity or just accept being a weaker version of who they once were is NOT acceptable.

This is fast becoming a deal breaker for me.

If they didn't tell you about the nerfs in the patch notes it's unlikely you would notice them. That's how small they are.

Then why do them at all?