Subclassing has sucked the life out of patch 46

Warhawke_80

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

Sweats (not you, specifically, but in general) are going to have to finally wake up and realize that there’s a trend away from weaving and animation canceling, and it’s on purpose. It was a bug that became a feature, and it’s the Achilles heel of the game. First came U35, which significantly lowered the contributions of light attacks to your overall DPS, then came Oakensoul and the Arcanist class, and now we’re going to allow any character to have whatever non-sweaty setup they want. I’m thinking 2 the sorc pets, the arc buff-and-beam, and the NB assassination passives should make a pretty killer one-bar build with minimal sweat. Weaving is dying, and everyone needs to come to terms with that. The direction of the game is very clear in this regard.

If I could make the above my forum signature I would...

RealLoveBVB

They should just give trial triples in upcoming crown crates or as random drop from world bosses.
If they make everything that easy, that there is no challenge in the game anymore and everyone should be able to earn everything in the game (accessibility ) with just pressing one button.
Sounds boring, but looks like that's what the players want.

francesinhalover

Drinks_from_Ponds wrote: »

I am extremely excited about this change, as a Warden I am good at healing, but I can't dps for the life of me. Having the Arcanist beam is really going to help with doing things etc. All the guilds I am in have been excited for it. I really don't understand why people are upset about this. This is one of the best things to come to the game in a long time. Team ZOS!!!!!

Enjoy it Will it lasts because arcanist Beam Will BE destroyed in the Next updates.

Hás a arcanist main it hurts. Subclassing doesnt even add anything to me.

At least Theres jabs once Beam is deleted.

moderatelyfatman

francesinhalover wrote: »

Drinks_from_Ponds wrote: »

I am extremely excited about this change, as a Warden I am good at healing, but I can't dps for the life of me. Having the Arcanist beam is really going to help with doing things etc. All the guilds I am in have been excited for it. I really don't understand why people are upset about this. This is one of the best things to come to the game in a long time. Team ZOS!!!!!

Enjoy it Will it lasts because arcanist Beam Will BE destroyed in the Next updates.

Hás a arcanist main it hurts. Subclassing doesnt even add anything to me.

At least Theres jabs once Beam is deleted.

@Drinks_from_Ponds
So very true. The same thing happend after hybridisation with patch 35. You either had to do the new meta or get nerfed into irrelevance.

Desiato

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

Sweats (not you, specifically, but in general) are going to have to finally wake up and realize that there’s a trend away from weaving and animation canceling, and it’s on purpose. It was a bug that became a feature, and it’s the Achilles heel of the game.

Animation cancelling was not a bug. Pretty much every game has an animation priority system which results in cancelled animations. This was 100% intended.

The part that ZOS didn't anticipate was that players would execute abilities on cooldown. Back then it wasn't LA weaves that were optimal, but rather medium weaves.

So what did ZOS do? They embraced how players chose to play the game. They removed the bar swap delay and eventually buffed light attacks to enable LA weaves. As time went by, they also buffed sustain so DDs could weave non-stop through the course of a fight.

So animation cancelling was 100% intended, and while the way players weave wasn't initially intended, it has been so for more than 10 years.

And then they added more options for players who don't prefer weaving.

Furthermore, I want to say it is absurd to associate weaving with "the sweats". The distinction is skyrim casuals vs core gamers.

SerafinaWaterstar

Have said before but am excited by subclassing.

Have 20 odd characters so looking to play around & have some fun & create some interesting builds for laughs.

For end game, like hm dungeons, trifectas & trials, I know it is going to be the same as now - you get told what to bring!

As for pvp, its going to be *interesting*. Yes, ball groups may well be horrendous, but some have managed to work out how to counter them effectively, so will just have to do that again.

So, just adding a bit to the positive side 😉

Iselin

Desiato wrote: »

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

Sweats (not you, specifically, but in general) are going to have to finally wake up and realize that there’s a trend away from weaving and animation canceling, and it’s on purpose. It was a bug that became a feature, and it’s the Achilles heel of the game.

Animation cancelling was not a bug. Pretty much every game has an animation priority system which results in cancelled animations. This was 100% intended.

That part I agree with. The rest, not so much.

Action combat games need animation canceling so you can mitigate incoming damage as a priority no matter what stage of an animation you're in the middle of when you need to react.

But in the vast majority of action combat games, the cancelled animation also cancels the skill's effect. That's the root of the problem: in ESO you get full credit and the skill hits as if it weren't cancelled, which obviously encourages routine, non-defensive canceling as a way to pump out more damage quicker.

There may be other games that have a canceling freebie system, but I'm not aware of others. And I seriously doubt that this was intended. By the time they noticed that many/most players were doing it, they shrugged and let it continue, or maybe this modified Hero engine just can't handle the extra computations to make canceled skills do no damage.

Orbital78

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

They should just give trial triples in upcoming crown crates or as random drop from world bosses.
If they make everything that easy, that there is no challenge in the game anymore and everyone should be able to earn everything in the game (accessibility ) with just pressing one button.
Sounds boring, but looks like that's what the players want.

Don't worry, it will most likely still be a challenge for most of the community/population.

Twohothardware

Orbital78 wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

They should just give trial triples in upcoming crown crates or as random drop from world bosses.
If they make everything that easy, that there is no challenge in the game anymore and everyone should be able to earn everything in the game (accessibility ) with just pressing one button.
Sounds boring, but looks like that's what the players want.

Don't worry, it will most likely still be a challenge for most of the community/population.

Basically 99% of the community. It’s a tiny group that are completing trials hard mode challenges and trifectas. That’s why they’re able to sell carry’s to unlock skins and mounts for millions of gold.

Subclassing should help bring the DPS floor up and help more players be able to complete a hard mode trial for the first time.

Desiato

Iselin wrote: »

That part I agree with. The rest, not so much.

Action combat games need animation canceling so you can mitigate incoming damage as a priority no matter what stage of an animation you're in the middle of when you need to react.

But in the vast majority of action combat games, the cancelled animation also cancels the skill's effect. That's the root of the problem: in ESO you get full credit and the skill hits as if it weren't cancelled, which obviously encourages routine, non-defensive canceling as a way to pump out more damage quicker.

There may be other games that have a canceling freebie system, but I'm not aware of others. And I seriously doubt that this was intended. By the time they noticed that many/most players were doing it, they shrugged and let it continue, or maybe this modified Hero engine just can't handle the extra computations to make canceled skills do no damage.

I don't recall ever playing a game that doesn't preempt animations, at least for movement and cosmetic activities, but it is more common now than ever as devs want to deliver complete, fluid, realistic looking animations and fast gameplay at the same time.

It's true animation preemption isn't a combat factor in all games, but it is in most 'action games', but ESO features action combat.

The animations that can be cancelled in ESO are just follow-through frames to make the animation look more fluid and realistic, but are not tied to the actual GCDs. This is and has always been intentional. ESO was intended to have fast, fluid combat without long cooldowns and with the majority of abilities being instantly cast.

That is to say, the only animations that are being preempted in ESO are cosmetic and that is and has always been intended. The actual GCDs are not reduced.

The mistake you're making is conflating the GCD with the cast time when there is no cast time on most abilities. If an ability with a cast time is cancelled before the cast time duration has elapsed, the effect is also cancelled.

Orbital78

Twohothardware wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

They should just give trial triples in upcoming crown crates or as random drop from world bosses.
If they make everything that easy, that there is no challenge in the game anymore and everyone should be able to earn everything in the game (accessibility ) with just pressing one button.
Sounds boring, but looks like that's what the players want.

Don't worry, it will most likely still be a challenge for most of the community/population.

Basically 99% of the community. It’s a tiny group that are completing trials hard mode challenges and trifectas. That’s why they’re able to sell carry’s to unlock skins and mounts for millions of gold.

Subclassing should help bring the DPS floor up and help more players be able to complete a hard mode trial for the first time.

I fill in for some streamer trials and such, where they bring in new or less experienced players. I don't feel so bad about my mediocrity towards the top of the logs. If I join an Aedra or higher experience level group I am towards the middle or straight bottom. If you're already skipping mechs I'm sure the game will feel easier, but there are a plethora of players that will still struggle and maybe have a bleak hope of TRYING to engage the content.

Grega

Twohothardware wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

They should just give trial triples in upcoming crown crates or as random drop from world bosses.
If they make everything that easy, that there is no challenge in the game anymore and everyone should be able to earn everything in the game (accessibility ) with just pressing one button.
Sounds boring, but looks like that's what the players want.

Don't worry, it will most likely still be a challenge for most of the community/population.

Basically 99% of the community. It’s a tiny group that are completing trials hard mode challenges and trifectas. That’s why they’re able to sell carry’s to unlock skins and mounts for millions of gold.

Subclassing should help bring the DPS floor up and help more players be able to complete a hard mode trial for the first time.

You say that because that’s how this has been presented, but in reality this will not occur. This floor raising to happen, these people are not on internets. They are casual players who don’t read forums, don’t read in game help, and play and will continue to play this “Skyrim” game. If anything, their floor will be even lower, not higher.

Pixiepumpkin

Desiato wrote: »

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

Sweats (not you, specifically, but in general) are going to have to finally wake up and realize that there’s a trend away from weaving and animation canceling, and it’s on purpose. It was a bug that became a feature, and it’s the Achilles heel of the game.

Animation cancelling was not a bug. Pretty much every game has an animation priority system which results in cancelled animations. This was 100% intended.

The part that ZOS didn't anticipate was that players would execute abilities on cooldown. Back then it wasn't LA weaves that were optimal, but rather medium weaves.

So what did ZOS do? They embraced how players chose to play the game. They removed the bar swap delay and eventually buffed light attacks to enable LA weaves. As time went by, they also buffed sustain so DDs could weave non-stop through the course of a fight.

So animation cancelling was 100% intended, and while the way players weave wasn't initially intended, it has been so for more than 10 years.

And then they added more options for players who don't prefer weaving.

Furthermore, I want to say it is absurd to associate weaving with "the sweats". The distinction is skyrim casuals vs core gamers.

You sure about that? "100% intended"

Elowen_Starveil

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

Sweats (not you, specifically, but in general) are going to have to finally wake up and realize that there’s a trend away from weaving and animation canceling, and it’s on purpose. It was a bug that became a feature, and it’s the Achilles heel of the game.

Animation cancelling was not a bug. Pretty much every game has an animation priority system which results in cancelled animations. This was 100% intended.

The part that ZOS didn't anticipate was that players would execute abilities on cooldown. Back then it wasn't LA weaves that were optimal, but rather medium weaves.

So what did ZOS do? They embraced how players chose to play the game. They removed the bar swap delay and eventually buffed light attacks to enable LA weaves. As time went by, they also buffed sustain so DDs could weave non-stop through the course of a fight.

So animation cancelling was 100% intended, and while the way players weave wasn't initially intended, it has been so for more than 10 years.

And then they added more options for players who don't prefer weaving.

Furthermore, I want to say it is absurd to associate weaving with "the sweats". The distinction is skyrim casuals vs core gamers.

You sure about that? "100% intended"

Thank you! I was about to ask Desiato for a source that confirmed it was intended, but now I don't need to. ;-)

Elowen_Starveil

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

Sweats (not you, specifically, but in general) are going to have to finally wake up and realize that there’s a trend away from weaving and animation canceling, and it’s on purpose. It was a bug that became a feature, and it’s the Achilles heel of the game. First came U35, which significantly lowered the contributions of light attacks to your overall DPS, then came Oakensoul and the Arcanist class, and now we’re going to allow any character to have whatever non-sweaty setup they want. I’m thinking 2 the sorc pets, the arc buff-and-beam, and the NB assassination passives should make a pretty killer one-bar build with minimal sweat. Weaving is dying, and everyone needs to come to terms with that. The direction of the game is very clear in this regard.

If I could make the above my forum signature I would...

I don't know... Your sig is already pretty awesome! ;-)

Iselin

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

Sweats (not you, specifically, but in general) are going to have to finally wake up and realize that there’s a trend away from weaving and animation canceling, and it’s on purpose. It was a bug that became a feature, and it’s the Achilles heel of the game.

Animation cancelling was not a bug. Pretty much every game has an animation priority system which results in cancelled animations. This was 100% intended.

The part that ZOS didn't anticipate was that players would execute abilities on cooldown. Back then it wasn't LA weaves that were optimal, but rather medium weaves.

So what did ZOS do? They embraced how players chose to play the game. They removed the bar swap delay and eventually buffed light attacks to enable LA weaves. As time went by, they also buffed sustain so DDs could weave non-stop through the course of a fight.

So animation cancelling was 100% intended, and while the way players weave wasn't initially intended, it has been so for more than 10 years.

And then they added more options for players who don't prefer weaving.

Furthermore, I want to say it is absurd to associate weaving with "the sweats". The distinction is skyrim casuals vs core gamers.

You sure about that? "100% intended"

Thanks for digging that up. I knew there was something like that somewhere, but I just didn't bother looking for it.

cuddles_with_wroble

Iselin wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Can't wait for June 2 when I'll drop Dark Magic from my one-bar, Oakensoul, HA, Sorcerer and add Assassination to it.

That's also something I've noticed. Most of the subclassing fans are HA sorcs...

Really? Where are you getting that from? Rigorous scientific research like most other comments here?

It's not enough to have a lazy, cheesy semi-godlike build, where you just have to hold the left mouse button.

Sorry, but I don't play sweaty meta builds. Don't have that kind of finger dexterity any more at 75. And there's a bit more to it than just LMB, LOL.

I think most people agree that there should be builds that are catered to those players like you and that they should be strong, I think the core issue a lot of people have is that they feel their high apm sweaty build should do like 10 -15% more damage than your low apm build bcs they are doing more work. Currently in eso this is not true and there is no real payoff or reward for playing the high apm builds or classes

Like I have no issue with the beam-canist or the heavy attack sorc type builds doing 100k but what I don’t like is that if I sweat really hard on a way more intense class… I also do 100k. That feels bad

You obviously haven't played a Sorc HA build yourself. That build, while very good for solo play, has never been anywhere near the top. Ask any knowledgeable raid leader, and they'll all tell you we're not wanted for anything above Vet dungeons and possibly normal trials. Its forte is low APM, not being top DPS or bringing much to groups.

It is already well below meta DPS builds, and we're not taking anyone's spot in HM trials, lol.

Try it for yourself and you'll see.

I have not played a HA sorc ever, but I have played Arcanist which is just as low apm and easy to play yet does compete and in a lot of cases is higher dps than everything else. So again why would I play nightblade and do 5x the work for the same or less damage than the 3 button beam rotation on Arcanist.

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Can't wait for June 2 when I'll drop Dark Magic from my one-bar, Oakensoul, HA, Sorcerer and add Assassination to it.

That's also something I've noticed. Most of the subclassing fans are HA sorcs...

Really? Where are you getting that from? Rigorous scientific research like most other comments here?

It's not enough to have a lazy, cheesy semi-godlike build, where you just have to hold the left mouse button.

Sorry, but I don't play sweaty meta builds. Don't have that kind of finger dexterity any more at 75. And there's a bit more to it than just LMB, LOL.

I think most people agree that there should be builds that are catered to those players like you and that they should be strong, I think the core issue a lot of people have is that they feel their high apm sweaty build should do like 10 -15% more damage than your low apm build bcs they are doing more work. Currently in eso this is not true and there is no real payoff or reward for playing the high apm builds or classes

Like I have no issue with the beam-canist or the heavy attack sorc type builds doing 100k but what I don’t like is that if I sweat really hard on a way more intense class… I also do 100k. That feels bad

Sweats (not you, specifically, but in general) are going to have to finally wake up and realize that there’s a trend away from weaving and animation canceling, and it’s on purpose. It was a bug that became a feature, and it’s the Achilles heel of the game. First came U35, which significantly lowered the contributions of light attacks to your overall DPS, then came Oakensoul and the Arcanist class, and now we’re going to allow any character to have whatever non-sweaty setup they want. I’m thinking 2 the sorc pets, the arc buff-and-beam, and the NB assassination passives should make a pretty killer one-bar build with minimal sweat. Weaving is dying, and everyone needs to come to terms with that. The direction of the game is very clear in this regard.

This is a false reality, weaving is more important than it has ever been in end game pve and like most sets and effects in the game are tied to light or medium weaving.

The common misconception is that update 35 light attack changes made weaving less important but in fact if you actually look at the parses and do the math, you find that it’s actually almost twice as important to have perfect weaving as it used to be

Elowen_Starveil

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Can't wait for June 2 when I'll drop Dark Magic from my one-bar, Oakensoul, HA, Sorcerer and add Assassination to it.

That's also something I've noticed. Most of the subclassing fans are HA sorcs...

Really? Where are you getting that from? Rigorous scientific research like most other comments here?

It's not enough to have a lazy, cheesy semi-godlike build, where you just have to hold the left mouse button.

Sorry, but I don't play sweaty meta builds. Don't have that kind of finger dexterity any more at 75. And there's a bit more to it than just LMB, LOL.

I think most people agree that there should be builds that are catered to those players like you and that they should be strong, I think the core issue a lot of people have is that they feel their high apm sweaty build should do like 10 -15% more damage than your low apm build bcs they are doing more work. Currently in eso this is not true and there is no real payoff or reward for playing the high apm builds or classes

Like I have no issue with the beam-canist or the heavy attack sorc type builds doing 100k but what I don’t like is that if I sweat really hard on a way more intense class… I also do 100k. That feels bad

You obviously haven't played a Sorc HA build yourself. That build, while very good for solo play, has never been anywhere near the top. Ask any knowledgeable raid leader, and they'll all tell you we're not wanted for anything above Vet dungeons and possibly normal trials. Its forte is low APM, not being top DPS or bringing much to groups.

It is already well below meta DPS builds, and we're not taking anyone's spot in HM trials, lol.

Try it for yourself and you'll see.

I have not played a HA sorc ever, but I have played Arcanist which is just as low apm and easy to play yet does compete and in a lot of cases is higher dps than everything else. So again why would I play nightblade and do 5x the work for the same or less damage than the 3 button beam rotation on Arcanist.

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Can't wait for June 2 when I'll drop Dark Magic from my one-bar, Oakensoul, HA, Sorcerer and add Assassination to it.

That's also something I've noticed. Most of the subclassing fans are HA sorcs...

Really? Where are you getting that from? Rigorous scientific research like most other comments here?

It's not enough to have a lazy, cheesy semi-godlike build, where you just have to hold the left mouse button.

Sorry, but I don't play sweaty meta builds. Don't have that kind of finger dexterity any more at 75. And there's a bit more to it than just LMB, LOL.

I think most people agree that there should be builds that are catered to those players like you and that they should be strong, I think the core issue a lot of people have is that they feel their high apm sweaty build should do like 10 -15% more damage than your low apm build bcs they are doing more work. Currently in eso this is not true and there is no real payoff or reward for playing the high apm builds or classes

Like I have no issue with the beam-canist or the heavy attack sorc type builds doing 100k but what I don’t like is that if I sweat really hard on a way more intense class… I also do 100k. That feels bad

Sweats (not you, specifically, but in general) are going to have to finally wake up and realize that there’s a trend away from weaving and animation canceling, and it’s on purpose. It was a bug that became a feature, and it’s the Achilles heel of the game. First came U35, which significantly lowered the contributions of light attacks to your overall DPS, then came Oakensoul and the Arcanist class, and now we’re going to allow any character to have whatever non-sweaty setup they want. I’m thinking 2 the sorc pets, the arc buff-and-beam, and the NB assassination passives should make a pretty killer one-bar build with minimal sweat. Weaving is dying, and everyone needs to come to terms with that. The direction of the game is very clear in this regard.

This is a false reality, weaving is more important than it has ever been in end game pve and like most sets and effects in the game are tied to light or medium weaving.

The common misconception is that update 35 light attack changes made weaving less important but in fact if you actually look at the parses and do the math, you find that it’s actually almost twice as important to have perfect weaving as it used to be

I'm not arguing that it's not still important for a traditional 2-bar, full-sweaty build, but stamarcs are the vast majority of the top DPS-ers in the logs. How do light attacks proc anything in the recommended gear for a stam PVE arc? The damage means nothing when wearing Velothi, and Ansuul and Deadly don't proc anything. In fact, I can't think of any recommended set for them that procs off LA's. Maybe you need it to build ult, but someone in the group is probably generating that for you these days. What builds do you think it means a world of difference for?

cuddles_with_wroble

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Can't wait for June 2 when I'll drop Dark Magic from my one-bar, Oakensoul, HA, Sorcerer and add Assassination to it.

That's also something I've noticed. Most of the subclassing fans are HA sorcs...

Really? Where are you getting that from? Rigorous scientific research like most other comments here?

It's not enough to have a lazy, cheesy semi-godlike build, where you just have to hold the left mouse button.

Sorry, but I don't play sweaty meta builds. Don't have that kind of finger dexterity any more at 75. And there's a bit more to it than just LMB, LOL.

I think most people agree that there should be builds that are catered to those players like you and that they should be strong, I think the core issue a lot of people have is that they feel their high apm sweaty build should do like 10 -15% more damage than your low apm build bcs they are doing more work. Currently in eso this is not true and there is no real payoff or reward for playing the high apm builds or classes

Like I have no issue with the beam-canist or the heavy attack sorc type builds doing 100k but what I don’t like is that if I sweat really hard on a way more intense class… I also do 100k. That feels bad

You obviously haven't played a Sorc HA build yourself. That build, while very good for solo play, has never been anywhere near the top. Ask any knowledgeable raid leader, and they'll all tell you we're not wanted for anything above Vet dungeons and possibly normal trials. Its forte is low APM, not being top DPS or bringing much to groups.

It is already well below meta DPS builds, and we're not taking anyone's spot in HM trials, lol.

Try it for yourself and you'll see.

I have not played a HA sorc ever, but I have played Arcanist which is just as low apm and easy to play yet does compete and in a lot of cases is higher dps than everything else. So again why would I play nightblade and do 5x the work for the same or less damage than the 3 button beam rotation on Arcanist.

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Can't wait for June 2 when I'll drop Dark Magic from my one-bar, Oakensoul, HA, Sorcerer and add Assassination to it.

That's also something I've noticed. Most of the subclassing fans are HA sorcs...

Really? Where are you getting that from? Rigorous scientific research like most other comments here?

It's not enough to have a lazy, cheesy semi-godlike build, where you just have to hold the left mouse button.

Sorry, but I don't play sweaty meta builds. Don't have that kind of finger dexterity any more at 75. And there's a bit more to it than just LMB, LOL.

I think most people agree that there should be builds that are catered to those players like you and that they should be strong, I think the core issue a lot of people have is that they feel their high apm sweaty build should do like 10 -15% more damage than your low apm build bcs they are doing more work. Currently in eso this is not true and there is no real payoff or reward for playing the high apm builds or classes

Like I have no issue with the beam-canist or the heavy attack sorc type builds doing 100k but what I don’t like is that if I sweat really hard on a way more intense class… I also do 100k. That feels bad

Sweats (not you, specifically, but in general) are going to have to finally wake up and realize that there’s a trend away from weaving and animation canceling, and it’s on purpose. It was a bug that became a feature, and it’s the Achilles heel of the game. First came U35, which significantly lowered the contributions of light attacks to your overall DPS, then came Oakensoul and the Arcanist class, and now we’re going to allow any character to have whatever non-sweaty setup they want. I’m thinking 2 the sorc pets, the arc buff-and-beam, and the NB assassination passives should make a pretty killer one-bar build with minimal sweat. Weaving is dying, and everyone needs to come to terms with that. The direction of the game is very clear in this regard.

This is a false reality, weaving is more important than it has ever been in end game pve and like most sets and effects in the game are tied to light or medium weaving.

The common misconception is that update 35 light attack changes made weaving less important but in fact if you actually look at the parses and do the math, you find that it’s actually almost twice as important to have perfect weaving as it used to be

I'm not arguing that it's not still important for a traditional 2-bar, full-sweaty build, but stamarcs are the vast majority of the top DPS-ers in the logs. How do light attacks proc anything in the recommended gear for a stam PVE arc? The damage means nothing when wearing Velothi, and Ansuul and Deadly don't proc anything. In fact, I can't think of any recommended set for them that procs off LA's. Maybe you need it to build ult, but someone in the group is probably generating that for you these days. What builds do you think it means a world of difference for?

yea well pve arc is kinda the exception to the rules, its super low apm, doesnt require really any weaving (other than for ultimate like you said) and does the same if not more damage than all the other classes which do require both high apm and good weaving to be as successful

your kinda reinforcing my original argument of why people dislike arcanist and the gameplay design that comes with it... you do 5% of the work for the same reward and that feels bad


also to answer your question of what builds it impacts, off the top of my head i can think of nightblade and sorc who both have hard hitting important abilities that are literally tied to how well you weave in order to do optimal damage with them

Elowen_Starveil

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Can't wait for June 2 when I'll drop Dark Magic from my one-bar, Oakensoul, HA, Sorcerer and add Assassination to it.

That's also something I've noticed. Most of the subclassing fans are HA sorcs...

Really? Where are you getting that from? Rigorous scientific research like most other comments here?

It's not enough to have a lazy, cheesy semi-godlike build, where you just have to hold the left mouse button.

Sorry, but I don't play sweaty meta builds. Don't have that kind of finger dexterity any more at 75. And there's a bit more to it than just LMB, LOL.

I think most people agree that there should be builds that are catered to those players like you and that they should be strong, I think the core issue a lot of people have is that they feel their high apm sweaty build should do like 10 -15% more damage than your low apm build bcs they are doing more work. Currently in eso this is not true and there is no real payoff or reward for playing the high apm builds or classes

Like I have no issue with the beam-canist or the heavy attack sorc type builds doing 100k but what I don’t like is that if I sweat really hard on a way more intense class… I also do 100k. That feels bad

You obviously haven't played a Sorc HA build yourself. That build, while very good for solo play, has never been anywhere near the top. Ask any knowledgeable raid leader, and they'll all tell you we're not wanted for anything above Vet dungeons and possibly normal trials. Its forte is low APM, not being top DPS or bringing much to groups.

It is already well below meta DPS builds, and we're not taking anyone's spot in HM trials, lol.

Try it for yourself and you'll see.

I have not played a HA sorc ever, but I have played Arcanist which is just as low apm and easy to play yet does compete and in a lot of cases is higher dps than everything else. So again why would I play nightblade and do 5x the work for the same or less damage than the 3 button beam rotation on Arcanist.

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Can't wait for June 2 when I'll drop Dark Magic from my one-bar, Oakensoul, HA, Sorcerer and add Assassination to it.

That's also something I've noticed. Most of the subclassing fans are HA sorcs...

Really? Where are you getting that from? Rigorous scientific research like most other comments here?

It's not enough to have a lazy, cheesy semi-godlike build, where you just have to hold the left mouse button.

Sorry, but I don't play sweaty meta builds. Don't have that kind of finger dexterity any more at 75. And there's a bit more to it than just LMB, LOL.

I think most people agree that there should be builds that are catered to those players like you and that they should be strong, I think the core issue a lot of people have is that they feel their high apm sweaty build should do like 10 -15% more damage than your low apm build bcs they are doing more work. Currently in eso this is not true and there is no real payoff or reward for playing the high apm builds or classes

Like I have no issue with the beam-canist or the heavy attack sorc type builds doing 100k but what I don’t like is that if I sweat really hard on a way more intense class… I also do 100k. That feels bad

Sweats (not you, specifically, but in general) are going to have to finally wake up and realize that there’s a trend away from weaving and animation canceling, and it’s on purpose. It was a bug that became a feature, and it’s the Achilles heel of the game. First came U35, which significantly lowered the contributions of light attacks to your overall DPS, then came Oakensoul and the Arcanist class, and now we’re going to allow any character to have whatever non-sweaty setup they want. I’m thinking 2 the sorc pets, the arc buff-and-beam, and the NB assassination passives should make a pretty killer one-bar build with minimal sweat. Weaving is dying, and everyone needs to come to terms with that. The direction of the game is very clear in this regard.

This is a false reality, weaving is more important than it has ever been in end game pve and like most sets and effects in the game are tied to light or medium weaving.

The common misconception is that update 35 light attack changes made weaving less important but in fact if you actually look at the parses and do the math, you find that it’s actually almost twice as important to have perfect weaving as it used to be

I'm not arguing that it's not still important for a traditional 2-bar, full-sweaty build, but stamarcs are the vast majority of the top DPS-ers in the logs. How do light attacks proc anything in the recommended gear for a stam PVE arc? The damage means nothing when wearing Velothi, and Ansuul and Deadly don't proc anything. In fact, I can't think of any recommended set for them that procs off LA's. Maybe you need it to build ult, but someone in the group is probably generating that for you these days. What builds do you think it means a world of difference for?

yea well pve arc is kinda the exception to the rules, its super low apm, doesnt require really any weaving (other than for ultimate like you said) and does the same if not more damage than all the other classes which do require both high apm and good weaving to be as successful

your kinda reinforcing my original argument of why people dislike arcanist and the gameplay design that comes with it... you do 5% of the work for the same reward and that feels bad


also to answer your question of what builds it impacts, off the top of my head i can think of nightblade and sorc who both have hard hitting important abilities that are literally tied to how well you weave in order to do optimal damage with them

And you're kind of proving my point that weaving is becoming less important to the game. If the majority of the people doing vet trial DPS are playing stamarcs, then you can argue that it's more important than ever for nightblades, but only the NB mains care. The net-net is that weaving has become less important to the game overall. And now everyone and every character can have the arc beam AND the 2 sorc pets, and have the best/worst of both the arcanist AND the HA sorc *at the same time*, and weaving is just going to be less important to the game than ever. I guess we'll all see how much the landscape changes in just a few more days.

cuddles_with_wroble

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Can't wait for June 2 when I'll drop Dark Magic from my one-bar, Oakensoul, HA, Sorcerer and add Assassination to it.

That's also something I've noticed. Most of the subclassing fans are HA sorcs...

Really? Where are you getting that from? Rigorous scientific research like most other comments here?

It's not enough to have a lazy, cheesy semi-godlike build, where you just have to hold the left mouse button.

Sorry, but I don't play sweaty meta builds. Don't have that kind of finger dexterity any more at 75. And there's a bit more to it than just LMB, LOL.

I think most people agree that there should be builds that are catered to those players like you and that they should be strong, I think the core issue a lot of people have is that they feel their high apm sweaty build should do like 10 -15% more damage than your low apm build bcs they are doing more work. Currently in eso this is not true and there is no real payoff or reward for playing the high apm builds or classes

Like I have no issue with the beam-canist or the heavy attack sorc type builds doing 100k but what I don’t like is that if I sweat really hard on a way more intense class… I also do 100k. That feels bad

You obviously haven't played a Sorc HA build yourself. That build, while very good for solo play, has never been anywhere near the top. Ask any knowledgeable raid leader, and they'll all tell you we're not wanted for anything above Vet dungeons and possibly normal trials. Its forte is low APM, not being top DPS or bringing much to groups.

It is already well below meta DPS builds, and we're not taking anyone's spot in HM trials, lol.

Try it for yourself and you'll see.

I have not played a HA sorc ever, but I have played Arcanist which is just as low apm and easy to play yet does compete and in a lot of cases is higher dps than everything else. So again why would I play nightblade and do 5x the work for the same or less damage than the 3 button beam rotation on Arcanist.

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Can't wait for June 2 when I'll drop Dark Magic from my one-bar, Oakensoul, HA, Sorcerer and add Assassination to it.

That's also something I've noticed. Most of the subclassing fans are HA sorcs...

Really? Where are you getting that from? Rigorous scientific research like most other comments here?

It's not enough to have a lazy, cheesy semi-godlike build, where you just have to hold the left mouse button.

Sorry, but I don't play sweaty meta builds. Don't have that kind of finger dexterity any more at 75. And there's a bit more to it than just LMB, LOL.

I think most people agree that there should be builds that are catered to those players like you and that they should be strong, I think the core issue a lot of people have is that they feel their high apm sweaty build should do like 10 -15% more damage than your low apm build bcs they are doing more work. Currently in eso this is not true and there is no real payoff or reward for playing the high apm builds or classes

Like I have no issue with the beam-canist or the heavy attack sorc type builds doing 100k but what I don’t like is that if I sweat really hard on a way more intense class… I also do 100k. That feels bad

Sweats (not you, specifically, but in general) are going to have to finally wake up and realize that there’s a trend away from weaving and animation canceling, and it’s on purpose. It was a bug that became a feature, and it’s the Achilles heel of the game. First came U35, which significantly lowered the contributions of light attacks to your overall DPS, then came Oakensoul and the Arcanist class, and now we’re going to allow any character to have whatever non-sweaty setup they want. I’m thinking 2 the sorc pets, the arc buff-and-beam, and the NB assassination passives should make a pretty killer one-bar build with minimal sweat. Weaving is dying, and everyone needs to come to terms with that. The direction of the game is very clear in this regard.

This is a false reality, weaving is more important than it has ever been in end game pve and like most sets and effects in the game are tied to light or medium weaving.

The common misconception is that update 35 light attack changes made weaving less important but in fact if you actually look at the parses and do the math, you find that it’s actually almost twice as important to have perfect weaving as it used to be

I'm not arguing that it's not still important for a traditional 2-bar, full-sweaty build, but stamarcs are the vast majority of the top DPS-ers in the logs. How do light attacks proc anything in the recommended gear for a stam PVE arc? The damage means nothing when wearing Velothi, and Ansuul and Deadly don't proc anything. In fact, I can't think of any recommended set for them that procs off LA's. Maybe you need it to build ult, but someone in the group is probably generating that for you these days. What builds do you think it means a world of difference for?

yea well pve arc is kinda the exception to the rules, its super low apm, doesnt require really any weaving (other than for ultimate like you said) and does the same if not more damage than all the other classes which do require both high apm and good weaving to be as successful

your kinda reinforcing my original argument of why people dislike arcanist and the gameplay design that comes with it... you do 5% of the work for the same reward and that feels bad


also to answer your question of what builds it impacts, off the top of my head i can think of nightblade and sorc who both have hard hitting important abilities that are literally tied to how well you weave in order to do optimal damage with them

And you're kind of proving my point that weaving is becoming less important to the game. If the majority of the people doing vet trial DPS are playing stamarcs, then you can argue that it's more important than ever for nightblades, but only the NB mains care. The net-net is that weaving has become less important to the game overall. And now everyone and every character can have the arc beam AND the 2 sorc pets, and have the best/worst of both the arcanist AND the HA sorc *at the same time*, and weaving is just going to be less important to the game than ever. I guess we'll all see how much the landscape changes in just a few more days.

weaving becoming less important is directly tied to the power of arcanist beam and not because of the light attack changes tho. the changes they made to light attack did indeed make weaving much more important but again bcs arcanist is so powerful those changes are negated and the impact of them is only felt by ever class other than arcanist

what your not factoring is that with the meta subclassing builds your almost always gonna be running spectral bow regardless of whether your using the beam build or the tentacle build so weaving will be very important as spectral bow is one of the hardest hitting skills in the game and makes up for a solid chunk of your dps

sans-culottes

Iselin wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

Sweats (not you, specifically, but in general) are going to have to finally wake up and realize that there’s a trend away from weaving and animation canceling, and it’s on purpose. It was a bug that became a feature, and it’s the Achilles heel of the game.

Animation cancelling was not a bug. Pretty much every game has an animation priority system which results in cancelled animations. This was 100% intended.

That part I agree with. The rest, not so much.

Action combat games need animation canceling so you can mitigate incoming damage as a priority no matter what stage of an animation you're in the middle of when you need to react.

But in the vast majority of action combat games, the cancelled animation also cancels the skill's effect. That's the root of the problem: in ESO you get full credit and the skill hits as if it weren't cancelled, which obviously encourages routine, non-defensive canceling as a way to pump out more damage quicker.

There may be other games that have a canceling freebie system, but I'm not aware of others. And I seriously doubt that this was intended. By the time they noticed that many/most players were doing it, they shrugged and let it continue, or maybe this modified Hero engine just can't handle the extra computations to make canceled skills do no damage.

To be clear, “action combat” is mostly a marketing term. Many games feature low- or no-cooldown combat systems, including Elden Ring, which bears little resemblance to ESO’s mechanics. Even World of Warcraft now includes optional action targeting. The term is so vague as to be meaningless beyond “minimal cooldowns and some degree of manual input.”

What is more concerning is the retroactive mythologizing around animation canceling. The idea that this interaction—where the animation is skipped but the damage is retained—is something we should now frame as intentional design or genre innovation has never quite held up. At best, it’s an accepted quirk. At worst, it’s a systemic exploit that was never reined in.

The celebration of it as a high-skill hallmark feels less like mechanical clarity and more like post hoc justification. And watching some players insist that it defines the genre, or that its erosion signals decline, is increasingly difficult to take seriously.

Pixiepumpkin

sans-culottes wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

Sweats (not you, specifically, but in general) are going to have to finally wake up and realize that there’s a trend away from weaving and animation canceling, and it’s on purpose. It was a bug that became a feature, and it’s the Achilles heel of the game.

Animation cancelling was not a bug. Pretty much every game has an animation priority system which results in cancelled animations. This was 100% intended.

That part I agree with. The rest, not so much.

Action combat games need animation canceling so you can mitigate incoming damage as a priority no matter what stage of an animation you're in the middle of when you need to react.

But in the vast majority of action combat games, the cancelled animation also cancels the skill's effect. That's the root of the problem: in ESO you get full credit and the skill hits as if it weren't cancelled, which obviously encourages routine, non-defensive canceling as a way to pump out more damage quicker.

There may be other games that have a canceling freebie system, but I'm not aware of others. And I seriously doubt that this was intended. By the time they noticed that many/most players were doing it, they shrugged and let it continue, or maybe this modified Hero engine just can't handle the extra computations to make canceled skills do no damage.

To be clear, “action combat” is mostly a marketing term. Many games feature low- or no-cooldown combat systems, including Elden Ring, which bears little resemblance to ESO’s mechanics. Even World of Warcraft now includes optional action targeting. The term is so vague as to be meaningless beyond “minimal cooldowns and some degree of manual input.”

What is more concerning is the retroactive mythologizing around animation canceling. The idea that this interaction—where the animation is skipped but the damage is retained—is something we should now frame as intentional design or genre innovation has never quite held up. At best, it’s an accepted quirk. At worst, it’s a systemic exploit that was never reined in.

The celebration of it as a high-skill hallmark feels less like mechanical clarity and more like post hoc justification. And watching some players insist that it defines the genre, or that its erosion signals decline, is increasingly difficult to take seriously.

This.

And I'd like to add that the idea of designing combat or any aspect of an MMORPG (or any game designed for large groups to play in the same world together, with a desire to cater to the masses) with twitch action mechanics is bad design. The action per second requirements are often too much for people with arthritis or painful joints, or people with high latancy issues or people who do not have the mechanical aptitude to weave animation cancelling into their rotations.

Combat should have a high floor and a low ceiling if a game is to attract a large player base. Designing combat to only have appeal to a smaller percentage of the population only creates more problems in the future, outside of only allowing a narrow band of people to engage in the first place.

And the idea that animation cancelling is "skill" is laughable. Muscle memory sure, solid ping because you are lucky to live in Texas sure, but "skill"....no. All that mentality does is divide the community on a division that is already taking place because for many weaving or animation cancelling" is simply not a reliable, or fun way to play.

AZ_Taco

"Subclassing" aka multiclassing has turned me away from the game. They had all these cool and unique themed classes, and now it will just be a huge slop fest of the best abilities. Don't get me started on the problems "Subclassing" makes for PvP. I quit the game until this is reworked or strait up reverted.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO

AZ_Taco wrote: »

"Subclassing" aka multiclassing has turned me away from the game. They had all these cool and unique themed classes, and now it will just be a huge slop fest of the best abilities. Don't get me started on the problems "Subclassing" makes for PvP. I quit the game until this is reworked or strait up reverted.

"A huge slop fest of the best abilities" sounds like a good reason for you personally to build something that isn't that, but still works, and be proud of it. Challenge accepted!

(It already was mostly that anyways - people could just play Arcanist instead of multi classing into it...)

As for unique and themed classes, I think they were unique ideas and that's part of why they are bad. An entire class around Apocrypha/Mora cultists? You going to make the other 15 Daedric Princes have their own classes too?

This way, your character is not constrained to the theme thought up by a dev *by fiat*, but you can choose to constrain yourself thusly and retain some perks (more skill points mostly, but also thematic cohesion in a cool way if that really was a theme you wanted to play).

cuddles_with_wroble

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

AZ_Taco wrote: »

"Subclassing" aka multiclassing has turned me away from the game. They had all these cool and unique themed classes, and now it will just be a huge slop fest of the best abilities. Don't get me started on the problems "Subclassing" makes for PvP. I quit the game until this is reworked or strait up reverted.

"A huge slop fest of the best abilities" sounds like a good reason for you personally to build something that isn't that, but still works, and be proud of it. Challenge accepted!

(It already was mostly that anyways - people could just play Arcanist instead of multi classing into it...)

As for unique and themed classes, I think they were unique ideas and that's part of why they are bad. An entire class around Apocrypha/Mora cultists? You going to make the other 15 Daedric Princes have their own classes too?

This way, your character is not constrained to the theme thought up by a dev *by fiat*, but you can choose to constrain yourself thusly and retain some perks (more skill points mostly, but also thematic cohesion in a cool way if that really was a theme you wanted to play).

really depends on what your definition of "works" is.

the meta combinations are vastly more powerful than anything else you could possibly do with your character and its not even close, its an uncrossable chasm

and theres nothing unique when everyone can do the same thing

Major_Mangle

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

Sweats (not you, specifically, but in general) are going to have to finally wake up and realize that there’s a trend away from weaving and animation canceling, and it’s on purpose. It was a bug that became a feature, and it’s the Achilles heel of the game.

Animation cancelling was not a bug. Pretty much every game has an animation priority system which results in cancelled animations. This was 100% intended.

That part I agree with. The rest, not so much.

Action combat games need animation canceling so you can mitigate incoming damage as a priority no matter what stage of an animation you're in the middle of when you need to react.

But in the vast majority of action combat games, the cancelled animation also cancels the skill's effect. That's the root of the problem: in ESO you get full credit and the skill hits as if it weren't cancelled, which obviously encourages routine, non-defensive canceling as a way to pump out more damage quicker.

There may be other games that have a canceling freebie system, but I'm not aware of others. And I seriously doubt that this was intended. By the time they noticed that many/most players were doing it, they shrugged and let it continue, or maybe this modified Hero engine just can't handle the extra computations to make canceled skills do no damage.

To be clear, “action combat” is mostly a marketing term. Many games feature low- or no-cooldown combat systems, including Elden Ring, which bears little resemblance to ESO’s mechanics. Even World of Warcraft now includes optional action targeting. The term is so vague as to be meaningless beyond “minimal cooldowns and some degree of manual input.”

What is more concerning is the retroactive mythologizing around animation canceling. The idea that this interaction—where the animation is skipped but the damage is retained—is something we should now frame as intentional design or genre innovation has never quite held up. At best, it’s an accepted quirk. At worst, it’s a systemic exploit that was never reined in.

The celebration of it as a high-skill hallmark feels less like mechanical clarity and more like post hoc justification. And watching some players insist that it defines the genre, or that its erosion signals decline, is increasingly difficult to take seriously.

This.

And I'd like to add that the idea of designing combat or any aspect of an MMORPG (or any game designed for large groups to play in the same world together, with a desire to cater to the masses) with twitch action mechanics is bad design. The action per second requirements are often too much for people with arthritis or painful joints, or people with high latancy issues or people who do not have the mechanical aptitude to weave animation cancelling into their rotations.

Combat should have a high floor and a low ceiling if a game is to attract a large player base. Designing combat to only have appeal to a smaller percentage of the population only creates more problems in the future, outside of only allowing a narrow band of people to engage in the first place.

And the idea that animation cancelling is "skill" is laughable. Muscle memory sure, solid ping because you are lucky to live in Texas sure, but "skill"....no. All that mentality does is divide the community on a division that is already taking place because for many weaving or animation cancelling" is simply not a reliable, or fun way to play.

Not liking something ≠ bad design. Wether something is good or bad design is all based on what the intention from the developers is. If the purpose is to obtain a certain goal and certain design choices/means achieve that goal, it's by definition a good design. If the goal is to achieve a fast paced no/-low cooldown combat system and animation cancelling achieves that, it's good design.

An example, I absolutely despite how easy and "too rewarding" fatecarver is in PvE, but if the goal from the dev team was to add a class to make more content accessible to bigger audience, then fatecarver is by definition "good design" regardless if I like it or not.

The opposite can also he true, you can like features that are by definition bad design because said feature lead to an outcome that wasn't intended from the beginning.

But not liking something is by no means equal to it being a bad design.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

AZ_Taco wrote: »

"Subclassing" aka multiclassing has turned me away from the game. They had all these cool and unique themed classes, and now it will just be a huge slop fest of the best abilities. Don't get me started on the problems "Subclassing" makes for PvP. I quit the game until this is reworked or strait up reverted.

"A huge slop fest of the best abilities" sounds like a good reason for you personally to build something that isn't that, but still works, and be proud of it. Challenge accepted!

(It already was mostly that anyways - people could just play Arcanist instead of multi classing into it...)

As for unique and themed classes, I think they were unique ideas and that's part of why they are bad. An entire class around Apocrypha/Mora cultists? You going to make the other 15 Daedric Princes have their own classes too?

This way, your character is not constrained to the theme thought up by a dev *by fiat*, but you can choose to constrain yourself thusly and retain some perks (more skill points mostly, but also thematic cohesion in a cool way if that really was a theme you wanted to play).

really depends on what your definition of "works" is.

the meta combinations are vastly more powerful than anything else you could possibly do with your character and its not even close, its an uncrossable chasm

and theres nothing unique when everyone can do the same thing

Works is playable?

Can you clear the content, get the furnishing or cosmetic or anything? Can you get the reward you want within the amount of effort you are willing to spend?
Eg. If the meta team can do it in 15 mins and you can do it in 45, it's probably fine. I would try to keep a vet DLC under an hour out of courtesy for the group though.

BretonMage

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

"A huge slop fest of the best abilities" sounds like a good reason for you personally to build something that isn't that, but still works, and be proud of it. Challenge accepted!

I mean, at the end of the day, I just wanted to be able to play my lightning/conjuring sorc from Skyrim, that I reprised to varying levels of success in ESO, depending on the patch.

The thing is, subclassing has made all the weird multiclassed classes meta (nightblade/arcanist/templar??? how is a person a nightblade and a templar?? what??) whilst all the classic classes that we grew up with (storm sorc, frost mage etc) are just shredded into oblivion. Nothing wrong with a little originality tbh, but let us have our classic mage fantasy, pls ZOS.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO

BretonMage wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

"A huge slop fest of the best abilities" sounds like a good reason for you personally to build something that isn't that, but still works, and be proud of it. Challenge accepted!

I mean, at the end of the day, I just wanted to be able to play my lightning/conjuring sorc from Skyrim, that I reprised to varying levels of success in ESO, depending on the patch.

I don't think the ability to play this has diminished - if anything, it is improved, if you want to conjure undead now rather than being limited to Daedra (which were both Conjuration in Skyrim).

BretonMage wrote: »

The thing is, subclassing has made all the weird multiclassed classes meta (nightblade/arcanist/templar??? how is a person a nightblade and a templar?? what??) whilst all the classic classes that we grew up with (storm sorc, frost mage etc) are just shredded into oblivion. Nothing wrong with a little originality tbh, but let us have our classic mage fantasy, pls ZOS.

A person is a Nightblade and a Templar the same way they are a philosopher of science or a mathematical ontologist.

A Templar with illusion or blood magic is a templar you could play in Skyrim (though shadow magic obviously is squirreled away under other schools or Daedric artifacts in Skyrim). A Nightblade with Templar is even easier to explain: Blazing Spear is a destruction spell in Oblivion, and conceiving of a Nightblade who can use destruction magic (even if it is just from a scroll!) is quite easy (for example).

The "classic mage classes we all grew up with" are not really a TES thing in the restrictive sense. Mages - indeed, any person - in TES can learn any magic at all - what matters is the effort they put into it (Skyrim is the most freewheeling, whereas in Oblivion off-class skills progress more slowly, just like costing extra SP).